RedZone
maximus
Posts: 203
Reg: 04-24-05
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07-09-05 12:53 PM - Post#8722
Here is a summary of the average fan attendance at home games last year for the eight Ivy League schools.
The results are disturbing for the Cornell basketball program. Although Cornell had a surprising run to second place in the League, swept Princeton for the first time in 20 years, and placed an underclassman on the All Ivy 1st Team (certainly not frequent scenario for Cornell), the fans just did not show up to games as Cornell finished 6th in average fan attendance. There is just no excuse for these basketball attendance numbers. Cornell has the largest student body of the Ivy League (with more than 20,000 students and over 12,000 undergrads). Further, Cornell is the only Division I program (or pro team for that matter) in a 30 mile radius. It also has the third biggest gym in the Ivy with the Arena’s standard seating capacity at 4,750 (and more than 5,000 if additional seating is added for special games). Here are the attendance numbers for the Ivies during 2005-2006:
1. Penn 4,621 (Solid overall numbers by Ivy League standards, but a half empty gym is ugly to look at during an Ivy League championship season, and there is no excuse)
2. Princeton 3,718 (Very good numbers considering the disaster of a season off the Turnpike)
3. Yale 1,465 (Elis still putting up decent seating numbers during the Jones era even though the team never lives up to preseason expectations)
4. Columbia 1,437 (Great numbers for a team that finished dead last in the Ivy)
5. Brown 1,329 (About what you might expect for this team)
***6. Cornell 1,255 (Cornell should have been at around 2,000 per game)
7. Harvard 1,147 (Harvard could do better)
8. Dartmouth 1,055 (It ain’t all that bad considering Leede only seats 2,100)
***At the opposition’s home court (excluding neutral games), Cornell basketball played in front of an average of 3,663 spectators. Meanwhile, Cornell hockey sold out every home game last year… as usual, with over 3,000 fans in attendance at each home game. Perhaps it is time Cornell basketball begins to have promotions and increase its advertising to attract fans. Steve Donahue Cornell Basketball talk show on Time Warner NY? Free admission for children? Better half time shows such as the dancing Rebounders Club? Free hot dog per ticket? Or… the team could just start winning and get them in the seats the old fashioned way.
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RedZone
maximus
Posts: 203
Reg: 04-24-05
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Re: butts in the seats
08-02-05 11:17 PM - Post#8723
In response to RedZone
Last year Penn led the Ivy League in average fan attendance for men’s basketball with 4,621 tickets per game. However, Penn’s basketball numbers were bolstered by the luxury of not having to compete for its fans with another major winter sport at the school. Penn basketball is the only show in town on the Penn campus during the winter months. On the other hand, Cornell basketball finished 6th in the league in attendance with 1,255 fans per game. However, the Big Red basketball team does have to compete for attention with the University’s national powerhouse hockey team which
appeared in the Frozen Final Four only three years ago and the Elite Eight last year. When games for hockey and basketball overlap, at least 3000 plus fans will jam into Lynah Rink to watch a sold out hockey game.
Cornell basketball is then left scrambling to find itself another few thousand fans to sit in Newman Arena.
This year’s basketball schedule appears to have been intentionally designed to decrease the overlap of the two sports at Cornell. This year, Cornell basketball and hockey only play in Ithaca on the same day on five occasions. (The basketball team only has twelve home games out of twenty-eight games.)
However, the Athletics Department has scheduled three of the five overlapping basketball games to start at a later 8 PM time slot, while having the hockey games start at 7 PM. This arrangement permits fans to see a full hockey game and probably still catch at least the last half of the basketball games. A fourth basketball game is scheduled for 3 PM while the hockey team plays later at 7 PM. Cornell’s home basketball games will start at 7 PM when there is no overlap.
Unfortunately, overlap of the two schedules is inevitable. However, it appears Cornell athletics has done a decent job in trying to allow fans to see both sports. It is also unfortunate that four of the overlapping games are Ivy League basketball games and of those overlaps, they include the home games for Penn and Princeton.
It will certainly be interesting to see if Cornell can boost its attendance numbers this year around.
Here are the overlaps:
December 2, 2005-Cornell Hockey v. Princeton (7 PM), Cornell Hoops v. Quinnipiac (7 PM)
January 21, 2006-Cornell Hockey v. Clarkson (7 PM), Cornell Hoops v. Columbia (3 PM)
February 3, 2006-Cornell Hockey v. Colgate (7 PM), Cornell Hoops v. Dartmouth (8 PM)
February 17, 2006-Cornell Hockey v. Dartmouth (7 PM), Cornell Hoops v. Princeton (8 PM)
February 18, 2006-Cornell Hockey v. Harvard (7 PM), Cornell Hoops v. Penn (8 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: butts in the seats
08-02-05 11:48 PM - Post#8724
In response to RedZone
Yo BRF, I know you post in order to debate with yourself, but this one is particularly ridiculous. To say that Penn basketball has no winter competition while Cornell has to compete with hockey fails to acknowledge that Penn is in a big city with literally hundreds of entertainment alternatives, including pro sports, theater, movies, clubs and music, etc. Cornell basketball competes on rare occasions with hockey....other than that it's frat parties.
Nice point, though.
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mshimmy
Sophomore
Posts: 193
Loc: Miami, FL
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-03-05 04:47 PM - Post#8725
In response to RedZone
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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RedZone
maximus
Posts: 203
Reg: 04-24-05
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Re: butts in the seats
08-06-05 03:44 PM - Post#8726
In response to
Penn's basketball fans are its students, alumni, faculty and other employees, as well as others with some ties to the school (i.e. the Penn community). Penn does not have a following outside of its community. Penn is not Notre Dame, Duke or Michigan. How many people are on this board without some tie to Penn? I think there may be one of you out there.
When there are exams/finals or if there is a University recess/vacation, the Palestra is DEAD empty. (not that it is ever really all that packed anyhow)
Attendance at Penn basketball games is not affected by what is going on outside of the University's walls. Yes, Philly is the country's 5th largest city. But, Penn basketball does not compete for fans with the 76ers, Flyers or Temple. Penn basketball is not competing with Penn frat parties (which start at 10 pm) or with Smokes to attract fans. Penn basketball is also not competing with the dance clubs of Delaware Avenue to attract fans to the Palestra at 8 PM.
If a member of the Penn community wants to go cheer on the school in a winter sport on Fri/Sat night (or even on a Wed night), the ONLY choice is basketball.
Case closed. End of story.
If the students don't go, it means they are apathetic towards your basketball team.
This is clearly not the case with Cornell basketball. Historically, the Big Red community has basketball and hockey games competing against one another. Fans have to make a choice between them.
As with Penn and any other college, Cornell frat parties start after 10 pm and really don't get going until after 11 pm. (students go to hockey games before the parties) The same with the approximately ten Cornell bars in Collegetown and the more than a dozen restaurants 1 block from the campus.
And last time I checked, the typical college student on Fri/Saturday nights (at most colleges) goes out for dinner and then hits the bars/parties. Unless of course you were a social misfit.
I don't know what you think Penn/Philly has going on at 8 PM on weekend nights that is stealing your fans.
What do Penn students do at night in Philadelphia that take them away from Penn games? Are they at the museum at 8 PM?
Please enlighten and share.
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-06-05 04:15 PM - Post#8727
In response to RedZone
I had a long reply written to that post but I'm not even going to bother with it because I just don't know how you think you have the right to speak for all Penn students.
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
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Anonymous
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The Final Word
08-06-05 04:17 PM - Post#8728
In response to RedZone
Last year, there were only THREE dates where Cornell BB and Cornell Hockey were home on the same date - Jan 22 & 29 and February 5th. Only the February 5th game did the teams overlap game times as the Jan 22 and 29th games for Men's BB were afternoon games while hockey was night games.
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RedZone
maximus
Posts: 203
Reg: 04-24-05
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Re: butts in the seats
08-06-05 09:04 PM - Post#8729
In response to DCAJedi
I am serious here (no sarcasm). As I asked in my post, please explain to me what Penn students are generally/stereotypically doing instead of attending Penn basketball games? I can tell you that historically... Cornell students choose hockey over basketball.
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RedZone
maximus
Posts: 203
Reg: 04-24-05
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Re: The Final Word
08-06-05 09:06 PM - Post#8730
In response to
Notice I used the word "historically" in my post.
This year they overlap 5 times.
And that is 5 of 12 home games!
That's pretty bad if you ask me.
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Anonymous
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Re: butts in the seats
08-06-05 11:22 PM - Post#8731
In response to RedZone
I'm telling YOU that it didn't occur this year. They didn't have to make a choice. Otherwise, Penn students do what Penn students do in a large city, go out and have fun. In Cornell the options are drink at frat parties and watch sports. There are just so many more options for Penn students than for Cornell students. It has nothing to do with competing against other sports for the general Philly population, you're right, Penn mainly draws from students and alums, but the students just have more options than rural schools like Cornell and to dangerous urban areas, like Rutgers-Camden, do.
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TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-07-05 08:04 PM - Post#8732
In response to
As a Penn grad, I would like to see larger crowds at the Palestra and at Franklin Field on autumn Saturdays. We have "marketing" experts at Wharton and they should resolve this problem.Unfortunately, there are many diversions on the campus and in the city which have an adverse effect on attendance. However, this is no excuse!
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Anonymous
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Re: butts in the seats
08-07-05 10:29 PM - Post#8733
In response to TomPittsburgh
1 way to get more attendance is to admit cooler, less studious/smart kids like myself into Penn.
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RedZone
maximus
Posts: 203
Reg: 04-24-05
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Re: butts in the seats
08-08-05 12:02 AM - Post#8734
In response to
I don't think Penn's city location has anything to do with its attendance numbers.
Villanova is in the same city, has a very academic-minded student body, but nearly doubled Penn's attendance numbers. And it is a smaller school.
Villanova 8,260
Penn 4,621
If you are going to use Penn's Philadelphia location as an explanation as to why Penn students don't go to Penn games, then how do you explain Villanova? Is Villanova too far from Center City?
I still think Cornell is more hampered by its student body choosing between two major sports. Furthermore, even when the games don't overlap, it can get exhausting going to multiple hockey and basketball games each week!!! Students are going to make a choice, one sport or the other to root for.
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Anonymous
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Re: butts in the seats
08-08-05 12:20 AM - Post#8735
In response to RedZone
apples and oranges....Nova is big time basketball with a much larger alumni season ticket base and general public following. Their own arena only holds 6500 (and student tix are limited), so the average you quote involves games at the Wachovia Center, which doesn't attract students since it is 20 miles from campus. Nova has nothing at all in common with Ivy ball and your use of it as an analogy shows you simply want to be outrageous and attract response, i.e. you are a troll.
I can guarantee you that if Cornell students had the entertainment options that Penn students do, they would not get 1000 per game. Frankly, I don't quite understand what point you are trying to make....you can't seriously be saying that Cornell draws better (in some weird weighted manner) than Penn.
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mshimmy
Sophomore
Posts: 193
Loc: Miami, FL
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-08-05 01:58 AM - Post#8736
In response to
It's not even worth responding to because nobody could even possibly be of that opinion, even the most avid Cornell fan. As you say, he wants a response and he's getting it.
He starts out the post by noting that Penn averages about 1000 more people per game than any other ivy, and about 3000 more than those besides Princeton. Thus, even if Cornell had a hockey game during every single basketball game (happened once? last season), and assuming that every single person from the hockey game would otherwise attend the basketball game (thats ridiculous), then the attendance would ALMOST be equal.
Bottom line, having been to a Penn @ Cornell game, I was unable to locate their student section until about 40-50 students slowly trickled in about 7 minutes into the contest. (Not a knock on Cornell, just an Ivy reality). Meanwhile, Penn has 400 students camp out for tickets, 1200 student season ticket holders, and most of my friends who regularly attend dont even have season tickets.
It is not worth debating the one Cornell poster in the entire universe. I'm not even sure what he's trying to do.
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-08-05 05:32 PM - Post#8737
In response to RedZone
Quote:
If you are going to use Penn's Philadelphia location as an explanation as to why Penn students don't go to Penn games, then how do you explain Villanova? Is Villanova too far from Center City?
Yes.
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
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Redfish
Masters Student
Posts: 767
Loc: under a bridge in Phoenix...
Reg: 11-26-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-08-05 10:56 PM - Post#8738
In response to DCAJedi
BRF, you do understand what the term "data-mining" means?
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CUJacob
Senior
Posts: 353
Reg: 12-05-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-09-05 05:12 AM - Post#8739
In response to RedZone
too many posts here have missed the point.
Penn hoops outdraws Cornell hoops because of its winning tradition. Its that simple.
With Cornell hockey, because of the tradition, people will go to the games even in a down year. I would imagine it is the same with Penn hoops (although neither program has too many down years).
You can do all the promotions you want, and you can virtually no entertainment options to compete with and you will still have poor crowds if you don't win.
Next time Cornell wins the ivies, the crowds will steadily grow throughout the year and then be terrific the following year.
wins=butts in the seats. its that simple.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4008
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: butts in the seats
08-09-05 12:06 PM - Post#8740
In response to CUJacob
It seems there are two primary factors in the attendance analysis, size of the undergraguate population and the team's performance. This is certainly the case at Brown, the students turn out when the men's team is winning (FB, Hockey, BB, Soccer & LAX. Don't when they don't. Seems to be true around the league.
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Anonymous
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Re: butts in the seats
08-09-05 12:43 PM - Post#8741
In response to Old Bear
I don't think we disagree with that assessment Old Bear, we're just taking issue with BRF's "excuses" and his shots at Penn's attendance.
One other thing is that Cornell's class size shouldn't be a factor like it could be with other schools.
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