palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32891
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-20-16 11:27 PM - Post#202264
long time before the dawn.
We will take a serious step back next year with the graduation of DNH. We have nothing at all in the pipeline to deal with real power players inside, and with Harvard loading up next year, we are at least 3 years away from competing....IF we somehow get a 5 star recruiting class.
And anyone who watched this game and still thinks that we were better off without Hicks and Woods doesn't know anything about basketball.
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fdiapmf
Masters Student
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Reg: 08-03-05
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02-21-16 12:10 AM - Post#202269
In response to palestra38
whats going on with auger?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32891
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-16 12:11 AM - Post#202271
In response to fdiapmf
Street clothes.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-15-15
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02-21-16 12:59 AM - Post#202275
In response to palestra38
P38
You are over reacting. Yale is a senior laden top 50 team. We aren't close to that obviously but we can be upper half next year with what we have. This was a bunch of underclass,en playing against upperclassmen.
Auger has been out since Brown game in Providence w nose and concussion I believe.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-21-16 06:26 AM - Post#202278
In response to PennFan10
We'll be fine without DNH. I mean he's a good player, but we're losing one player out of our rotation, our current rotation players will each be better and then we have decent-ish recruits, at least one of whom was probably more highly touted than DNH coming in.
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palestra38
Professor
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02-21-16 07:23 AM - Post#202279
In response to PennFan10
Auger wasn't playing even when he was healthy. Yes, Yale is a very good Ivy team. But its backcourt is pedestrian---had we had Hicks and Woods, we would have had a significant advantage that would have forced Yale to adjust. We may have lost anyway because the advantage they had up front was just too great, but it would have been a completely different game. Still, the complete domination Yale had inside in every series where DNH was on the bench, indicates that next year, we will be chewed up in the middle. Neither Rothschild nor Dwyer is capable of replacing him. I do not believe I am overreacting. Harvard has recruited a tremendous class--they will be back to the level of Yale next year and Princeton will have a much better and experienced team. We are at least 2 recruiting classes away from competing. I say this knowing that our coaching is light years better than in the past--we recognize the double team and move the ball to the open man and take advantage of weaknesses wherever we can. Problem is that we are critically unathletic. I just don't see the Quakers being competitive next year without our one remaining advantage (say what you will--DNH changes shots, scores and rebounds and we have no one close to his level in the middle). It's a long term project.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
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02-21-16 08:16 AM - Post#202280
In response to palestra38
Auger is still dealing with issues from the broken nose.
As for the fears about our inside presence after DNH, last night was not very encouraging. Max has at least shown flashes in the past but I struggle to find other positives out there. Do we have anyone coming in with any height?
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mbaprof
Senior
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Age: 67
Reg: 12-24-11
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Re: It Appears to be a Long....
02-21-16 11:42 AM - Post#202287
In response to palestra38
Next years's team could easily have a winning record. Lose DNH but gain several players who should be in the rotatio nwith ability to shoot the 3 including Matt McDonald who is already here. Mark Jackson comes in year after at 7' 3". Still think we may see some good things from Colin McManus at 6' 10". Give Steve 3-4 years!
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palestra38
Professor
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Re: It Appears to be a Long....
02-21-16 11:47 AM - Post#202289
In response to mbaprof
Well, you have to give him 3-4 years, because that's what it's going to take. And I certainly am not criticizing Donahue--I think he has coached this team to its maximum potential.
I don't see anyone replacing what we get from DNH next year. Maybe in 2. And I don't see us with a dynamic scorer or playmaker who will make everyone else better, either.
But of course, we have to be patient--it's tough after 8 years, but there is no choice.
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SomeGuy
Professor
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Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: It Appears to be a Long....
02-21-16 11:59 AM - Post#202291
In response to palestra38
While it is a small sample size, I don't think we played much worse (if at all) in our Brown/Yale weekend without DNH than we did this past weekend with him. We played differently, certainly -- we played very little defense without him. But the offense actually did well at Brown.
Not sure how the match ups would change over time with more prep, etc. We weren't expecting to play that weekend without him, and the last thing Yale and Brown were expecting with their bigs is for us to play small.
My guess is that we are about the same next year, and then start to really move forward the following year. But that is just a wild guess.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32891
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: It Appears to be a Long....
02-21-16 12:24 PM - Post#202299
In response to SomeGuy
Come on...DNH in 59 minutes over the weekend had 34 pts, 13 rebounds and 3 assists. Rothschild and Dwyer in 44 minutes had 7 points 9 rebounds and 2 assists. And that doesn't include the turnovers, yesterday DNH had zero and the 2 others had 5 in less time. Nor does it include the fact that DNH in the middle makes teams change shots. Unfortunately, it's not close. We have nothing that is close to providing what we get from DNH, despite his flaws.
Essentially, I see this team as having a backcourt similar to Kreitz and Copp, and a frontcourt similar to Milobsky, Marshall and McAllister. One guy with talent and 2 small not particularly quick guards...2 journeyman big men. Portends a bottom half Ivy finish and depending on the schedule, no better than a 10-12 win season. That's with really good coaching. I wonder how you see an improved record next year.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21298
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: It Appears to be a Long....
02-21-16 12:34 PM - Post#202300
In response to palestra38
Our current backcourt is undersized and for the most part not especially quick.
Agreed that we will really miss DNH next year. Hopefully over time we can at least get better shooters out there--no true inside big presence or steady shooting from the outside spells trouble for next year, indeed.
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Chip Bayers
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02-21-16 01:07 PM - Post#202304
In response to penn nation
Since when is DNH a shot-alterer of any significance? He's 9th in block % in the Ivies. That's merely OK for a big his size, but he's not in the same league as the true alterers like Kuakumensah, Petrasek, Edosomwan, or the other leaders above him. In Ivy games, he's about as good a shot-blocker as 6'7" Patrick Steeves. 6'5" Nick Victor has twice as many per game as he does.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32891
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-16 01:15 PM - Post#202306
In response to Chip Bayers
You don't have to be a shot blocker to be a shot alterer. DNH cannot jump--we all know that. But he stops the people shooting past our guards far better than anyone else we have. He's just legitimately large. We will really miss him next year.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
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02-21-16 01:21 PM - Post#202308
In response to palestra38
Even a mere "shot-alterer" might have by accident gotten at least one shot block in a game where Yale did nothing but shoot twos. And he had all of zero blocks last night.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
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02-21-16 01:28 PM - Post#202310
In response to Chip Bayers
BTW, that "pedestrian" Ivy backcourt of Yale's was without one of its starters in Montague. Mason, meanwhile, is an all-Ivy first team candidate. Your talent evaluation skills continue to shine.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32891
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-16 02:37 PM - Post#202317
In response to Chip Bayers
As does your knowledge of basketball.
You know what is continually astounding? That you of all people had the chutzpah to call me a troll. Chip Bayers, who never ventures his own opinion and merely criticizes others (the definition of a troll) looking for a flame war.
Sorry, you're not getting one. But we'd all like to know your opinion of next year's team and the likelihood of competitiveness in the next 2 years.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
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Loc: New York
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02-21-16 03:00 PM - Post#202321
In response to palestra38
Your narrowing of the definition of "opinion" to "conformity with P38's wildly uninformed speculation" is charming.
Meanwhile, the prediction game isn't as hard as you seem to think it is. The team is going to be better next year because it's going to be more experienced, both overall (one of youngest in D-I again this year) and in Donahue's system, and it's getting at least one outstanding recruit in Brodeur plus at a minimum some needed depth parts.
It's also unlikely to be challenging for any Ivy titles in the next two years. Next year's recruiting class plus another good one, on top of this year's freshmen, might get them closer, but the reality of where Ivy recruiting is now suggests they're still going to be behind HYP.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-15-15
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02-21-16 03:23 PM - Post#202325
In response to palestra38
So we are going to get "chewed up in the middle" without DNH next year? Well let's at least check some facts before we go off the deep end on this.
Sears scored 31 pts and had 9 rebounds, Sherrod added 15 pts and 4 rebounds. DNH wasn't on the bench during all of those 46 points. I didn't see a lot of shot altering or big man defense. If that's what we are going to miss, I am looking forward to it. DNH had 4 rebounds last night in 33 minutes. Max R had 4 in 19 minutes. We got outrebounded by 6.
The other bigs don't produce because Donahue doesn't run plays for them. Max R sits in the corner when DNH is in there. He took 3 shots last night and made 1. Sam Jones took 8 and made 1. DNH took 11. Max has taken 10+ shots exactly twice. @Brown he was 8-12 and scored 18 pts, almost all of which while being guarded by Kuakamensah (the all time Ivy league shot blocker). Against Harvard he was 7-11 and had 14 pts and 11 reb. Those two games Donahue ran plays through him. @Cornell he had 8 and 8 in 9 minutes. He isn't 6-11, but he can score from what I have seen. And he is a much better athlete than any of the other bigs we have. AJ Brodeur is a similar type of kid. Lot's of post moves and a physical big who can play some on the perimeter. Each of these freshman are going to look bad in some games this year. It's what freshmen do. But with maturity comes consistency and we have seen enough to be hopeful.
You can't judge these freshmen too harshly for losing to a senior laden team and going against the Ivy player of the year (who is a senior). I for one believe we will be better next year. In fact, I would be willing to bet we will be top half of the Ivies next year. The jump these freshmen will make with a full offseason of Donahue ball will be big. Add Matt McDonald and AJ Brodeur to this group and we will be fine. Not Ivy title fine, but progress will be clear.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32891
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-16 04:03 PM - Post#202332
In response to PennFan10
At no time yesterday did DNH cover Sears. Our most "effective" defender was Howard, who had trouble with him as well. And there is a reason neither Rothschild nor Dwyer takes as many shots....they do not have offensive moves that can get them shots. DNH, despite his weaknesses (which I acknowledge) is still our best back to the basket scorer since Bruce Lefkowitz. We are going to miss him on both ends of the court, but especially we're going to miss his ability to draw a double. And when he's finally learned to pass out of it, too.
And Chip, thanks for admitting that you agree with me that we aren't going to be competitive over the next 2-3 years, which was the point of my initial post. We'll see if we can replace DNH. I don't think we will. I'm also doubtful we will be able to replace Hicks and Woods over the short term.
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