Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-03-20 11:01 PM - Post#302911
I was intending to wait until the end of the season to start this discussion, but Jeff, in the other thread, has started the ball rolling, so let’s proceed.
In 2011, a newly hired athletic director, prior to the official starting date of the athletic director’s term, met with the men’s basketball coach of a Division 1 program. The basketball coach had one year left on his contract. The athletic director fired the men’s basketball coach, stating that it would not be wise to permit him to coach the final, lame-duck, year of his contract. “Allowing [him] to coach the last year of his contract would prevent him from recruiting effectively.†Why was the coach being fired? “Extending his contract would send a false signal of the level of competitive success that will merit a contract extension going forward.â€
The coach who was fired was Jim Whitesell. The school at which he was employed was Loyola University (of Chicago). The athletic director who fired the coach was M. Grace Calhoun. Grace Calhoun would replace Jim Whitesell with Porter Moser, who, in 2018, would lead Loyola to the Final Four.
Why is this story relevant? Grace Calhoun hired Steve Donahue in 2015 and gave him a six year contract. Five of those six years have been served. (Perhaps Steve Donahue was given a contract extension after the co-championship season of 2018. It would not be the first time that Penn has given a men’s basketball coach an unreported contract extension. Steve Bilsky extended Jerome Allen’s contract after the 2012 season.)
Absent a secret contract extension, next season would be the final season of Steve Donahue’s initial contract. Grace Calhoun has publicly declared her philosophy that a men’s basketball coach should not coach a lame-duck season as that would compromise his ability to recruit. So, by her own standard, Grace Calhoun must make one of two choices. She must either replace Steve Donahue as coach or extend his contract.
Should Steve Donahue’s contract be extended? The program is in better shape than it was when Steve Donahue arrived. Of course, some would say that it would be hard for any competent head coach not to have improved the program compared to its condition in 2015. There was a championship in 2018, one which was the product of multiple injuries at Harvard and at Yale. 2019 and 2020 produced exciting non-conference victories followed by a struggle to make the Ivy tournament. In those seasons there were multiple injuries to key rotation players at Penn.
So what is Penn’s actual level of achievement? Mike James, looking from a distance, believes that Penn, for now, is inherently a 4th place program. Mike writes:
<<Penn has been the fourth-best recruiting team in the Ivies not far behind Princeton and Yale. There's been a lot of talent flowing into this league, so you can have a Top 150 team even with the fourth-best recruiting hauls. But it's hard to win more Ivy games without winning more recruiting battles.>>
When discussing whether there is a recruiting ceiling for Steve Donahue, Palestra38 acknowledges that more time is needed to answer that question, but that “it's not an unreasonable suggestion.â€
“How is Steve Donahue?†As the borscht belt comedian, Henny Youngman, might have asked, “Compared to what?†Who would be the alternative? Between the 1982 departure of Bob Weinhauer, and the 2015 arrival of Steve Donahue, Penn has hired five men’s basketball coaches. Craig Littlepage, Tom Schneider, Fran Dunphy, Glen Miller and Jerome Allen. Many would say Penn made a bad coaching hire on four of those five occasions. Would Penn do any better the next time?
Jeff declares his “rejection of the comforting lukewarm embrace of mediocrity.†Grace Calhoun, at Loyola, used more mainstream language, asking if extending the coach’s contract “would send a false signal of the level of competitive success that will merit a contract extension going forward.â€
What say all of you?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-04-20 05:40 AM - Post#302920
In response to Stuart Suss
Donahue is just so damn competent that it's hard to get mad at him. I believe he's a championship level practice and game coach. I believe he manages the program in a way we are all proud of. With the right talent, he can take a team farther than other coaches, as demonstrated by the Cornell championship teams.
If we judge him by competing for championships today at Penn, the story is mixed. As you pointed out, he won one and his teams have competed. We've not been league favorites, though. He needs to somehow find the key to consistently unlocking higher level talent. Assistant coaches? AAU connections? Philadelphia connections? Improving his ability as a closer? What do you think it is?
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-04-20 08:59 AM - Post#302926
In response to Penndemonium
If Cornell let SD go after 5 seasons, it might not have any Ivy League championships/NCAA Tournament appearances since 1988, meaning no Sweet 16 appearance in 2010. Just saying....
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-20 09:06 AM - Post#302927
In response to 13otto
I would be absolutely shocked if they let him go. I cannot remember any Penn basketball coach being fired without having repeat losing seasons. And the culture of the program has been restored. There may be legitimate questions of his assistants with respect to recruiting, but I cannot believe he will not get a new contract.
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Kwaequer
Postdoc
Posts: 3084
Age: 43
Reg: 12-20-15
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03-04-20 09:24 AM - Post#302930
In response to palestra38
Agreed. We have seen the depths of Littlepage, Allen and Miller. What Donahue gives us is so much better, especially in the ILT era.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-04-20 09:33 AM - Post#302931
In response to Kwaequer
it's weird that your mind goes to how worse it could get (it could!) when you've also presumably lived through the many good times.
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Kwaequer
Postdoc
Posts: 3084
Age: 43
Reg: 12-20-15
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03-04-20 09:42 AM - Post#302932
In response to Jeff2sf
Yes. I can live with Donahue. It's sort of like being married to the same woman for 20 years. It's not amazing, but it sure beats being single or being married to a witch.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-04-20 09:47 AM - Post#302935
In response to Kwaequer
let that mediocrity just wash over you. it's so delightfully adequate.
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mountainred
Masters Student
Posts: 514
Age: 57
Loc: Charleston, WV
Reg: 04-11-10
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03-04-20 10:00 AM - Post#302936
In response to 13otto
If Cornell let SD go after 5 seasons, it would not have any Ivy League championships/NCAA Tournament appearances since 1988, meaning no Sweet 16 appearance in 2010. Just saying....
FYP
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3057
Reg: 10-20-14
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03-04-20 10:02 AM - Post#302938
In response to Kwaequer
I certainly voiced my frustrations after Friday's loss at Yale. It is tough to watch the team competing for the last spot in the IT on the last weekend of the season for 3 of the 4 years.
Despite that, SD has been a very good change from JA and the program is top-to-bottom better than it was when he took over.
I would agree with mrjames that Penn is the 4th best recruiting team in the league. With Yale and Harvard being more consistently relevant and having a stronger "brand", it is very hard to see Penn breaking into the top 2.
If SD did not get an extension after the 2018 season, then I believe he has earned an extension after this year.
It would seem hard for Calhoun to jettison a popular, well-liked and successful coach unless she could sign the second coming of James Jones or Tommy Amaker.
In writing this, I feel resigned to continued years of being in the Ivy League's middle tier with the possibility of the occasional year where the stars line up properly and we make it to the top.
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Kwaequer
Postdoc
Posts: 3084
Age: 43
Reg: 12-20-15
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03-04-20 10:04 AM - Post#302941
In response to Jeff2sf
Slow and steady wins the race.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-20 10:58 AM - Post#302951
In response to Kwaequer
I think it's important to provide some context to this discussion. Here are Steve's Ivy records along with the rank of the Ivy League among the 32 D-I conferences:
Penn
2019-20: 6-6 Ivy record, 16th ranked league
2018-19: 7-7, 12th
2017-18: 12-2, 21st
2016-17: 6-8, 18th
2015-16: 5-9, 17th
Cornell
2009-10: 13-1, 26th
2008-09: 11-3, 28th
2007-08: 14-0, 27th
2006-07: 9-5, 20th
2005-06: 8-6, 28th
2004-05: 8-6, 22nd
2003-04: 4-10, 23rd
...
So, the Ivy League has been a Top 20 league every season since Steve left, except for one - the one that Penn won. In the four Top 20 seasons, Penn has been 24-30. This is pretty much in line with my initial assessment of what Steve would bring to Penn.
I wrote a bunch about this at the time - you can search the posts on these boards. I made an assumption that the Ivy League would continue to be a Top 20 (and really 15ish league) in perpetuity, but the league slipped for a year and Penn was poised to take advantage, winning the league as a 125ish team. That being said, the point about StevieD's ceiling being about 125 has held true, and the point about needing to be a Top 100 team to have a shot at the title and a Top 50 team to feel good about it has held true in every other season.
I do think the league has hit a ceiling until another FA expansion, so the league isn't going to get as good as I thought, keeping a 125-150 team pretty competitive... but... is that what Penn wants?
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-04-20 11:07 AM - Post#302952
In response to mrjames
The child is grown
The dream is gone
I have become comfortably numb
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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"The comforting lukewarm embrace of mediocrity."
03-04-20 11:44 AM - Post#302959
In response to penn nation
My friend, 13Otto, writes:
<<If Cornell let SD go after 5 seasons, it might not have any Ivy League championships/NCAA Tournament appearances since 1988, meaning no Sweet 16 appearance in 2010. Just saying....>>
1. If Fran Dunphy does not leave and take his entire staff with him to Temple, Louis Dale's recruiting tape does not remain unwatched, sitting on a desk in the Penn basketball office, leading to Dale's successful recruitment by Cornell.
2. If Princeton does not hire Joe Scott, Princeton basketball does not decline.
3. If Penn does not hire Glen Miller, Penn basketball does not decline.
4. If Ivy League men's basketball is not at an unusually low level in 2008, 2009 and 2010, as documented by Mike James. . .
5. If Cornell's Kahliq Gant does not suffer a paralyzing injury in January 2006 and is not transported to Arnot Ogden Medical Center in Elmira, N.Y. . . .
6. If Wanda Foote, the head nurse in the intensive care unit at the medical center does not develop a connection with the Cornell assistant coach, Zach Spiker (currently the head coach at Drexel), when the Cornell players come to visit their fallen teammate . . .
7. If, because of that connection, Wanda Foote's 7-foot son, Jeff, does not transfer from St. Bonaventure to Cornell where Jeff becomes a borderline NBA prospect who is invited to the camp in Portsmouth after his senior season . . .
. . . then Cornell (with the best talent in the league for those three years) does not win three Ivy titles in 2008, 2009 and 2010 and advance to the Sweet Sixteen in 2010.
Edited by Stuart Suss on 03-04-20 12:06 PM. Reason for edit: Thanks HDG, corrected Wanda "Sykes" to Wanda "Foote"
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-04-20 11:51 AM - Post#302962
In response to Stuart Suss
A lot of things happen like that in life. How Obama ended up as President--also because of some flukes in the political environment in Illinois.
What did Woody once say? 90% of life is just showing up?
If Amaker hadn't coincidentally run into someone in a supermarket..... 
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Kwaequer
Postdoc
Posts: 3084
Age: 43
Reg: 12-20-15
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03-04-20 11:58 AM - Post#302963
In response to penn nation
Coaching is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-20 12:01 PM - Post#302964
In response to penn nation
To be fair, on the Amaker front... If Michigan doesn't blow a 6-pt lead at home to Ohio St. in the final few minutes of the regular season finale, it probably makes the 2007 tournament and Amaker doesn't get fired... leaving Mike Jarvis to jump start the Harvard basketball brand, which he was ultimately unable to do at FAU.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2692
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-04-20 12:01 PM - Post#302965
In response to Kwaequer
What does Wanda Sykes have to do with this?
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2275
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-20 12:37 PM - Post#302971
In response to penn nation
If Amaker hadn't coincidentally run into someone in a supermarket.....
Nice! Love it. Can we get a Spencer Gloger reference to go with this?
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2275
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-20 12:47 PM - Post#302973
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
What does Wanda Sykes have to do with this?
Hmmm. Wanda Sykes does a spot on Moms Mabley impression. Moms' real name was Loretta Aiken. Bryce Aiken is on the Harvard basketball team.
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