Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-08-19 11:36 PM - Post#280084
Under the traditional system, Saturday's games would have produced the following possibilities.
A Harvard road win and a Yale road loss would have won the NCAA bid for Harvard.
A Yale road win and a Harvard road loss would have won the NCAA bid for Yale.
If both Harvard and Yale would have won, they would be co-champions, and have a playoff at the Palestra for the NCAA bid.
If both Harvard and Yale lost, there would have been three way co-champions. Harvard would draw the playoff bye. Yale and Princeton would play at the Palestra, and the winner would play Harvard at the Palestra for the NCAA bid.
Instead, all that matters tomorrow is a play-in game for 4th place.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8341
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-08-19 11:56 PM - Post#280094
In response to Stuart Suss
Well put, Stu.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Isn't it wonderful? 03-09-19 08:36 AM - Post#280106
In response to Stuart Suss
I think it is unlikely that we’d have the range of first place possibilities you describe if not for Ivy Madness. Brown, Cornell, and Penn all had something to play for last night. That would not have been the case under the old system. I suspect that under the old system someone would be 12-1 or 11-2 right now. Yes, the league has gotten better, particularly at the bottom. Even so, we have historically had a peculiar lack of parity in our standings that went beyond other conferences. We also had more 14-0 winners than the numbers would suggest should be possible. The new system may be producing the tighter race for first.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-19 08:51 AM - Post#280108
In response to SomeGuy
The more rational explanation is that the changes in fin aid have raised the talent level across the league. More good players spread across more teams means more competitive games.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Isn't it wonderful? 03-09-19 08:56 AM - Post#280110
In response to Stuart Suss
Under the traditional system, Saturday's games would have produced the following possibilities.
A Harvard road win and a Yale road loss would have won the NCAA bid for Harvard.
A Yale road win and a Harvard road loss would have won the NCAA bid for Yale.
If both Harvard and Yale would have won, they would be co-champions, and have a playoff at the Palestra for the NCAA bid.
If both Harvard and Yale lost, there would have been three way co-champions. Harvard would draw the playoff bye. Yale and Princeton would play at the Palestra, and the winner would play Harvard at the Palestra for the NCAA bid.
Instead, all that matters tomorrow is a play-in game for 4th place.
Great! For the sake of preserving the hope that the final night of the season is impactful, let's ignore the fact that we have just had probably the most interesting season in Ivy history, and go back to playing three or four weeks of meaningless games for the majority of the league.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 75
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Isn't it wonderful? 03-09-19 08:59 AM - Post#280112
In response to Stuart Suss
I believed that interest level would decline as to which team would finish 1st in the IL regular season but it is even far more so than imagined -- even more so when it comes downn to the last weekend of regular season play. Not sure if Princeton and Penn women's team feel the same way or they are simply better than the competition or somehow it means more to the women -- I doubt it but who knows. Only watching tonight's Jadwin game to send off Myles - sad but true.
Great irony and humor surrounding IvyMadness.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8341
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-19 09:41 AM - Post#280115
In response to bradley
IvyMadness is very appropriately named.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-09-19 11:54 AM - Post#280136
In response to Streamers
Not sure if y'all are paying attention but this season has been a solid argument for a tournament.
Neither Columbia nor Cornell will be in the tournament - but if they were, it wouldn't be a shocker if either won it.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-09-19 06:12 PM - Post#280189
In response to TheLine
Then why play the season?
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-09-19 11:37 PM - Post#280358
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
We made that argument, We lost. Stop whining; next year you get the tournament at you pathetic dump, which Harvard fans apparently believe is their right for having the highest touted recruiting class since James Brown et. al. to never get to the NCAAs.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Isn't it wonderful? 03-15-19 10:46 AM - Post#281428
In response to section110
Stu, I loved your post that started this thread, acknowledging the drama that was lost on the final weekend because of the existence of a tournament.
Further evidencing this, and to my surprise, Saturday's quadruple header is still not sold out and some tix are available at or around face value on resale sites.
On March 14, 2015, the Harvard vs Yale playoff at the Palestra drew 5,256 fans, most of whom were obviously Harvard and Yale fans who traveled. Tomorrow's ticket sales are struggling to reach half that amount. The 2011 playoff between Harvard and Princeton was sold out, meaning that neutral site single game could outsell tomorrow's 4 games despite being held in the home gym of one of the participants. Wonder if the student sections will even be full as most schools are on break (Yale included). It appears that part of school (non-student tix) allotments were actually not bought up and were returned this week.
The arena could well be sold out by tomorrow, but I find it dissapointing that this event is struggling to sell out, despite being held on the campus possibly most centrally located among the member institutions.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-15-19 10:48 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Isn't it wonderful? 03-15-19 11:29 AM - Post#281438
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I think you are overlooking the fact that the Palestra itself is an attraction for basketball fans. Paine Whitney is not. Of course, any Harvard-Yale matchup riles up that fan base and will achieve a good attendance. If this doubleheader were at the Palestra, they easily could have sold 6000 seats.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-15-19 11:40 AM - Post#281444
In response to palestra38
Once again we learn who really props up this league as far as fanbases are concerned. I understand why this is the case as the Ps dominated for so long, but I don't see how it gets fixed. New student fans are not being created and how do you bring in the alum who didn't care when they were in school at the other 6 ivies? That Harvard fan and his ridiculous 2011 banner only account for 1 person...
I fear this thing is going to get really ugly as we move to some of the more out-of-the-way venues in this league.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-19 12:01 PM - Post#281455
In response to Quakers03
This needs to be held at a neutral site. Period.
While I'm not a blanket "only the Power 5 + AAC, Big East should hold a tourney" supporter, there are definitely *wrong* ways for conferences outside those seven to host tournaments. Putting the 1-seed (or generally any higher seeds) on the road is definitely one of the BIG ones that has proven to be skewing in the past. The continuation of that practice has pushed me a bit into the anti-tourney camp - the folks that argued the Ivy League might not be able to do this right have indeed been proven right.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-15-19 12:02 PM - Post#281456
In response to mrjames
When they've lost even you, they have some major issues on their hands...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32909
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-19 12:31 PM - Post#281468
In response to Quakers03
I agree with Mike. Trying to be "fair" to all the schools is unfair to the team that wins the 14 game season. It should either be at the 1-seed or at a neutral site.
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mountainred
Masters Student
Posts: 514
Age: 57
Loc: Charleston, WV
Reg: 04-11-10
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03-15-19 12:31 PM - Post#281469
In response to Quakers03
I fear this thing is going to get really ugly as we move to some of the more out-of-the-way venues in this league.
How hard will it be to fill 4500 seats in Ithaca?
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8341
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-19 01:06 PM - Post#281477
In response to mountainred
Pretty hard if Cornell is not in it.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-15-19 01:08 PM - Post#281479
In response to mountainred
In 2011 Payne Whitney sold out for Harvard vs Princeton playoff. Add Penn & Yale + women’s games and it isn’t sold out. It’s not the arena, it’s the tournament.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4921
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-15-19 01:48 PM - Post#281493
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Yeah, I don't think the venue is that big of a deal. I think being just another mid-major post-season add-on dampens enthusiasm.
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