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Username Post: Coach Sydney Johnson
BU GUY
Pre-Frosh
Posts 2
03-13-11 09:07 PM - Post#100744    

There's a lot of talk at pjstar.com that Sydney Johnson is the favorite to be the next head coach at Bradley University - just wondered what the Princeton fans thought of coach Johnson? His stock seems to be high right now after he has had some success the past few years. Good luck against Kentucky!
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-13-11 10:27 PM - Post#100780    

Not a chance he goes to Bradley.
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
03-13-11 11:08 PM - Post#100804    

Only way he leaves is if some Big 6 conference team throws a ton of money at him and even then who knows, he seems to be real happy to coach at PU
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-13-11 11:11 PM - Post#100807    

I agree. After some of the comments he's made this past week, I don't think he's going anywhere any time soon.

Especially not to the Missouri Valley.
Redfish
Masters Student
Posts 767
Redfish
03-14-11 12:13 AM - Post#100838    

Bradley? Who? Where?
Tiger86
Sophomore
Posts 173
03-14-11 12:50 AM - Post#100843    

Bradley? I'd be stunned. He's got Tiger Blood!
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-14-11 08:44 AM - Post#100864    

OP meant Bradley as in Bill Bradley U, but SJ's already there.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-14-11 02:51 PM - Post#100974    

I don't think it's out of the question that Johnson could take another coaching job at some point. The opportunity to double, triple or who knows what his income might just be too much to pass up. But I would be stunned to see him throw over Princeton for Bradley. Stanford? UCLA? Georgetown? Virginia? Sure. I also don't think he needs to be in any rush. Unlike James Jones, who should have taken the opportunity to jump when he could, Johnson is likely to have continued success at Princeton (where, unlike Yale, there's an institutional commitment to winning basketball), so he can bide his time and wait for the right opportunity.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
03-14-11 03:09 PM - Post#100981    

Yeah, SJ's not going anywhere soon, and if/when he does, it'll be for a BCS program or elite mid-major (Xavier, Temple, etc.).

That said, BU Guy, I think I speak for Princeton fans when I say our recommendations would be overwhelmingly positive in just about every single way. In fact, the only "negative" I can come up with is that he's too nice and responsible -- he may over-reward hard work and veteran leadership rather than winning at any cost. Not exactly a big knock, that.
pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts 2470
03-14-11 03:15 PM - Post#100983    

Georgia Tech bought out Paul Hewitt today. Tubby Smith has been mentioned but this seems like the sort of gig Johnson could be linked to.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-14-11 03:17 PM - Post#100984    

Being a Charlottesville native and painstaking life-long Virginia fan, I would under no circumstances take the Virginia job over Princeton, were I Coach J. The glory ceiling is higher at an ACC school, but the odds of reaching it are infintecimally small at UVA. I'd take the job security at Princeton any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 03:36 PM - Post#100991    

I don't really agree with that. Obviously the salary numbers need to be in line, but Coach Johnson can have a Princeton type job basically any time he wants. No, it won't be his alma mater, but it's not like he'd live in the unemployment line if he failed at UVA or other BCS type schools.

So if you can get 3x your salary and 1x your salary at another school should the first school not work out, there's no real danger.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-14-11 03:59 PM - Post#101000    

I don't know how many of the press conferences you've heard this year, but it seems clear to me Johnson really doesn't want to be coaching anywhere except Princeton unless it's an insane job like Kansas or something.

I think the risk of going to a place like Virginia, with no basketball history and high coaching turnover rate, only to end up looking for a job in the America East or Great West after 4 years isn't worth leaving a place that I'm sure he considers heaven on earth.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 04:09 PM - Post#101004    

With the exception of Glen Miller, I've never heard a coach NOT refer to his current job as heaven on earth... sometimes just days before they leave for another job.

Don't get me wrong, even if "most people" would take the Bradley job over Princeton (let's assume that's true), he probably wouldn't take the job. But I have a tough time conceiving of too many BCS jobs that he wouldn't take. Not just the Kansas's, but also the Kansas States.
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
03-14-11 04:09 PM - Post#101005    

  • puband09 Said:
I don't know how many of the press conferences you've heard this year, but it seems clear to me Johnson really doesn't want to be coaching anywhere except Princeton unless it's an insane job like Kansas or something.

I think the risk of going to a place like Virginia, with no basketball history and high coaching turnover rate, only to end up looking for a job in the America East or Great West after 4 years isn't worth leaving a place that I'm sure he considers heaven on earth.



Johnson seems to always bring up how he loves being at Princeton and he seems to be genuine but you cant blame a guy for taking a job that increases his salary 3-5x and is at a program that could win a national championship or make a final 4
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
03-14-11 04:16 PM - Post#101007    

Brad Stevens stuck around at Butler, so it's not impossible. Anyway, it's not like I think SJ will be here forever, but he's not going anywhere in the next year or two.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-14-11 04:21 PM - Post#101009    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
I don't really agree with that. Obviously the salary numbers need to be in line, but Coach Johnson can have a Princeton type job basically any time he wants. No, it won't be his alma mater, but it's not like he'd live in the unemployment line if he failed at UVA or other BCS type schools. So if you can get 3x your salary and 1x your salary at another school should the first school not work out, there's no real danger.


So, where's Dave Leitaio coaching these days?
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-14-11 04:30 PM - Post#101012    

I think some of you are placing a bit too much emphasis on the money alone. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think in a field like athletics (or film, or music where I happen to work), professionals are equally if not more preoccupied with "glory" and "fame" as they are dolla dolla bills.

If you are Johnson and you see the opportunity to coach for 30 years, get one or two upsets and a boat-load of media attention, and be inducted into the Hall of Fame the year you retire, that's much more intriguing than 5 years of near-guaranteed failure at a non-powerhouse BCS school.

Would a coach with Pete Carill's resume after 30 years at UVA even get inducted or be a flagship name in the NCAA? It doesn't seem like 1 first-round upset and an NIT championship would do it.

Assuming he is compensated enough so as to be comfortable with his family, I easily see the Johnson I think I know sticking with Princeton over a plethora of BCS offers.
pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts 2470
03-14-11 04:35 PM - Post#101014    

Don't you think the same could apply to every non-Joe Scott Carill successor? Where are those dudes?
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 04:41 PM - Post#101016    

Exactly, Dunphy did what PUBand describes (Stick around for a while, be a "legend") and bailed, deciding that there was more "glory" beyond some rinky dink Ivy League school.

I'm mostly pushing back at the "coach speak". Coaches all say they love it where they are. And then they move on where the dollars or glory are. I don't think Coach Johnson's going to move on for just any job, but you gotta be kidding yourself if you think he'll stay for only the most elite of jobs (Which he'd never get anyway - Kansas/Kentucky aren't hiring a guy who doesn't recruit scholarship players).
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-14-11 04:43 PM - Post#101017    

You don't think JT3 can have an impressive career at Gtown!?!? He's only been there 7 years (this year's results still TBD) and has already gone to the Sweet Sixteen and the Final Four. Give him 10 or 20 more and I bet they play for a national title at least once.
pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts 2470
03-14-11 04:45 PM - Post#101018    

No, what I meant was that all the gravy talk about a 30 year run at Princeton was equally applicable to Carmody and Thompson and neither one lasted long at all.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 04:48 PM - Post#101019    

Sparman, I'd guess Leitao is busy counting the 2.1 million dollar buy out that Virginia gave him. When he's ready to jump back into things, he will - his financial future secure.

This also ignores basic facts we all know about successful peers - when they have a skill mastered, they often move on to the next challenge. Radiohead coulda kept cranking out "The Bends" and had millions upon millions of fans paying for their albums, instead they wanted to try something different, and then something different again and in the process made only several million dollars instead of hundreds of million dollars (for you oldsters, sub in Beatles). Serial entrepreneurs leave jobs all the time to start the next new idea.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-14-11 04:50 PM - Post#101020    

I was just a wee laddy when they were coaching, so I dunno what their attachment to Princeton was like; however, I'm guessing it was nothing like Johnson's.

I'm sure JT3 always hoped to continue his father's dynasty if possible. Carmody didn't even GO to Princeton, so I doubt he cared much. I'm sure Joe Scott would have loved to stay.

Johnson practically cries about what it means to be a Tiger in some of these interviews. I'm sure upsetting the reigning national champ during your coach's second-to-last game will do that to you.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 04:52 PM - Post#101021    

  • puband09 Said:
I was just a wee laddy when they were coaching, so I dunno what their attachment to Princeton was like; however, I'm guessing it was nothing like Johnson's.






GTFOWTBS...

or

Now who's being naive, Kay?
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-14-11 04:58 PM - Post#101023    

You think Carmody, someone who didn't even go to Princeton, is as attached as someone who played there under Pete Carril, beat the reigning national champs in the 2nd best all time NCAA upset, and met his wife in college?

Yup, that's naive.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 05:02 PM - Post#101025    

I'm more referring to JTIII. But people leave their alma maters all the time. And say "all the right things" all the time as well. You HAVE to know that's coach speak. You have to.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 05:05 PM - Post#101026    

You also have to understand what we're arguing about. Most coaches, say Carmody is a good example, the list of schools he'd have bolted Princeton for was about 150 long. You're saying the list of schools SJ would leave is about 10 long. I'm saying he's a pretty dedicated guy to Princeton and would turn down salary increases, but he'd leave for 50-75 schools.
Dial Lodge
Sophomore
Posts 170
03-14-11 05:06 PM - Post#101028    

OK, here's the article from pjstar.com that lists potential candidates for Bradley:

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/x2022451400/Re placing...

Tommy Amaker and Sidney Johnson are both on the list, but this article lists only names, and says nothing about whether these people have been contacted, or if they would have any interest. I doubt if this article contains much more than a who-should-we-try-to-get? list.

I don't see why Amaker or SJ would make a move to another Mid-Major school that lacks a powerful name (Princeton probably has a stronger name in basketball circles than does Bradley, and Amaker seems to be changing Harvard's basketball reputation - all he needs to make them an Ivy power is a new arena). Moving to Bradley would be a lateral move (except, perhaps, in salary), and you don't make a lateral move when your program is doing well and you're well-thoguht of where you are. I don't know either of these guys personally, but would assume that it would take a head coaching job at a major conference school to attract either one away, and would guess that Amaker could be more easily attracted away from his current job to a big-time job than Johnson could.


pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts 2470
03-14-11 05:12 PM - Post#101031    

If Amaker leaves Harvard for Bradley I will eat the internet.

And I'd give only slightly better odds of Johnson doing the same.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
03-14-11 05:20 PM - Post#101032    

I think coach Johnson isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but if he has the kind of success we want him to have, he'll probably move on up, if and when he got the right offer.

As I mentioned in the another post, Carmody spent 18 years at Princeton and cashed in his chips at Northwestern. He's never made it back to the tourney, and has no postseason wins of any kind in 11 seasons, and made 12 million dollars in the process.

Coach Johnson is young and I think part of the wisdom of hiring a young coach is that he'll be more apt to stay for awhile longer. But if he has any desire to coach at a BCS level, it's almost irresponsible to his family not to do so. Money isn't everything, but the difference is substantial.

I think Coach Carril had the insight to know that he would not have been happy making the compromises in a large conference. While I would love it if Sydney Johnson were successful and stayed for a number of decades, I don't see that happening.
Albert08
Masters Student
Posts 572
03-14-11 05:26 PM - Post#101033    

God, this argument could go on forever. Every coach has his own needs, desires, ambitions, etc. that factor into decisions like the next career move. We could speculate that Carmody stayed for a few years, but as the immediate successor to a legend, wanted to make his own mark somewhere else, but at a quality institution. JTIII seems to have had no issue with following his father, another legend, so maybe a key factor was coming home (he is still closely follows his high school team, Gonzaga College H.S., and its league). None of us knows what drives these guys deep down, but I would tend to side with the Princeton guys who think SJ will stay - at least for the foreseeable future.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-14-11 05:41 PM - Post#101036    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
Sparman, I'd guess Leitao is busy counting the 2.1 million dollar buy out that Virginia gave him. When he's ready to jump back into things, he will - his financial future secure.

This also ignores basic facts we all know about successful peers - when they have a skill mastered, they often move on to the next challenge. Radiohead coulda kept cranking out "The Bends" and had millions upon millions of fans paying for their albums, instead they wanted to try something different, and then something different again and in the process made only several million dollars instead of hundreds of million dollars (for you oldsters, sub in Beatles). Serial entrepreneurs leave jobs all the time to start the next new idea.



That 2.1 gets small in a hurry. It's been 3 years, so he's already averaged down quite a bit.

But the thing is - as you know - the longer you are out of the game, the harder it is to get back in. There are newer, shinier, younger models coming out each year. You become forgotten.

Some people can get back in - Steve Lavin for example. But it makes a difference if you have a strong resume, meaning a winning record at a school people notice. In Bball, UVA and UCLA are not equal.

I am not arguing Johnson would never leave. If he gets the right offer, (IMO) he would and should. I don't think there are 50 such opportunities that would serve the call, but there are some. I just disagree that "any" big school offers the likelihood of landing on your feet, no matter what you do when you get there. Before you blithely uproot your family and surrender a comfortable setting, you want to be more careful than assuming a couple years of higher pay will make it all better and that you always land on your feet in a desirable place.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-14-11 07:10 PM - Post#101047    

Wow....what a great article on Jeff Ruland. When he and Mahorn were healthy, the Washington Bullets/Wizards were a thing of beauty.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-14-11 08:01 PM - Post#101052    

It's only been two years that Leitao's been out of it. If we conservatively put a VA salary at half a million more than Princeton - the dude woulda made 5.5-6 million more over 6 years than coaching at Princeton (I know we're mixing coaches here, but the point remains). And then I'm sure if he threw himself at Dartmouth or Columbia they'd thank their stars. We don't know the type of opportunities that Leitao has been offered since then, but it'd be financially irresponsible to not take the job.
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
03-14-11 08:27 PM - Post#101061    

The big money jobs out there that are open to mid major coaches are tough, tough jobs. Programs like Providence and Georgia Tech and Arkansas have had enough success in the past to make alumni think they should be in the top 25 every year but they are in leagues with elite programs that will bury them over time.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-14-11 09:57 PM - Post#101088    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
It's only been two years that Leitao's been out of it. If we conservatively put a VA salary at half a million more than Princeton - the dude woulda made 5.5-6 million more over 6 years than coaching at Princeton (I know we're mixing coaches here, but the point remains). And then I'm sure if he threw himself at Dartmouth or Columbia they'd thank their stars. We don't know the type of opportunities that Leitao has been offered since then, but it'd be financially irresponsible to not take the job.



FYI, he was hired by UVA for a period at intiial annual salary of $925K and coached for 4 years.

http://www.mopsquad.com/artman2/publish/Virgi nia_C...

I don't get your math. Even if you assume 6 years @ $500K more than PU, that means $3MM more than if he stayed. Then on the backside (e.g., Dartmouth), he would be losing, relative to PU.

If the only thing that interests a coach is the money and he's willing to move whenever/wherever to chase it, that's one thing, but most people aren't John Calipari and actually value personal stability.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-15-11 07:12 AM - Post#101120    

I have found this thread very interesting, even though it is clearly completely conjectural, and will play out over years, not over one season, unlike the debates about teams and players.

To me the question is not whether Coach J will ever leave, because I think he would, for the right offer. The question of how long the list of acceptable schools might be is of course the most important one. I suspect his list is 25 schools or fewer.

My initial concern was whether he would leave for the FIRST high paying job, which is what happened with Carmody and Thompson. After the long Carrill tenure, each of the departures was a severe shock to my system. The allure of Georgetown for JTIII is obvious. The allure of Northwestern to Carmody is less clear, and it is interesting that there is now talk of replacing him. Next year could be his last year if he does not make the NCAA. And then where does he go?

I have come to believe that Coach J has a greater degree of institutional loyalty than either JTIII or Carmody, so I see him staying significantly longer than they did.

On the other hand, if he coached Princeton to the Ivy title again next year, over a clearly favored Harvard team, how hot a commodity would he then be? And could a job pop up from his short list?
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-15-11 09:13 AM - Post#101124    

My math was off - I had 4.1 million in my head as the buyout. My bad.

So let's revise and now that you found Leitao's salary, it would have been 600K more, since I'm assuming Princeton/Penn pays about 300K. After 4 years, he had 4.5 million more than he would have coaching Princeton (2.1 buyout plus 600K for 4 years). It would take the coach of Princeton another 15 years to make that (yes he'll get raises but with time value of money...) plus the 4 years of the contract.

And what we've done is compare WORST case Virginia scenario with BEST case Princeton scenario - there's a very non-zero chance that Coach Johnson gets fired before he serves 19 more years at Princeton.

The math doesn't add up sparman. OF COURSE he takes a UVA job, OF COURSE he does.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-15-11 11:31 AM - Post#101145    

Agree to disagree I guess. Like I said: big UVA fan here, and I think it is one of the worst jobs to take in BCS basketball.

You know why? One of your own: Craig Littlepage!

Sorry, I just have to make that jab every time I can
pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts 2470
03-15-11 11:46 AM - Post#101146    

  • princeton72 Said:
The allure of Northwestern to Carmody is less clear



Henry Bienen.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-15-11 01:48 PM - Post#101169    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
OF COURSE he takes a UVA job, OF COURSE he does.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it's not a slam dunk (heh).

Odds are high the tenure would be short. Within the ACC there is a definite pecking order, UVA isn't at the top, and the order has knocked off some pretty good coaches. ACC is unrelenting - when Gary Williams is critcized by UM fan base that wants him to step down even after winning an N/C, you have to wonder. Anyone other than the dsypeptic rodent and Roy is handicapped.

Personally I would love Charlottesville, but IMO it's a high risk proposition and if I were SJ, I would be watching BC closely.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3994
03-15-11 01:59 PM - Post#101171    

Would SJ or Amaker consider the Oklahoma job? BTW, Craig Robinson loved being at Brown right up to the last minute, so did Miller.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-15-11 02:02 PM - Post#101172    

Yeah. Miller loved Penn and then he was like he was like "Later suckas, I'm going to take a way better more awesome job somewhere else." Oh wait...

You can't use people who get driven out of town as proof that people don't stay places.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-15-11 02:04 PM - Post#101174    

Oh. You meant Miller at Brown. Sorry. I read too quickly the first time through.
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
03-15-11 03:44 PM - Post#101177    

I don't think Johnson would consider UVA because that would require going head to head against JT3 for the top DC area recruits.

puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-15-11 03:47 PM - Post#101178    

And Tech, and Richmond, and VCU, and George Mason, and George Washington, and ODU, and Hampton, and JMU, and William & Mary... all of which are better (some more solidly than other) than UVA in most years.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-15-11 03:50 PM - Post#101179    

That seems like a pretty lame rationale to me. I just can't see Johnson turning down the job for that reason. I find the other 'no way, UVA' arguments advanced here to be far more compelling. If it really is a no-win job then there's no reason to take it. That said, if Johnson thinks he might be interested in one day having one of college basketball's tippy-top jobs, he's going to have to take a transitional position first. Perhaps UVA's not it, but I bet there are a good number of jobs out there that would fit the bill.
Penn94
PhD Student
Posts 1461
03-15-11 03:53 PM - Post#101180    

  • Brian Martin Said:
I don't think Johnson would consider UVA because that would require going head to head against JT3 for the top DC area recruits.




I know we're talking about hypotheticals here, but really? Assuming he thought UVa was a great job he'd pass on that because he wouldn't want to compete with JT3?

That would surprise and shock me and quite honestly, if he did thinks like that it does not speak well of Johnson's ambition, competitiveness, and desire to win. I've been very impressed with Johnson so far, I can't imagine any good coach would shy away from competing against a mentor/friend/member of the family, etc. You think Joe Jones was hesitant to go to Columbia because he would have to recruit against brother James?
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
03-15-11 03:53 PM - Post#101181    

I am not saying he would be afraid of recruiting - I think he is great at it on a personal level - but he still has a close personal and professional relationship with JT III and as a Georgetown assistant he helped JTIII take control of the DC-Maryland-Virginia recruiting region.

At Princeton, Sydney can sort of piggy-back off JT III and recruit DC players below the high major level. Hummer is a special legacy case, but Ben Hazel is a Washington Catholic league guy.
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
03-15-11 04:05 PM - Post#101182    

And as I said farther up about Providence and GA Tech, UVA is a hard job to meet the expectations of alumni who remember the brief period when they were an elite program and think that is the way it should be every year.

Maybe it is because I am in DC, but I think Georgetown, Maryland, UVA, and VA Tech are up or down primarily according to how they rank in local recruiting.

They still lose some elite DC players, Durant, Gay, Beasley to national programs, and the DC area schools are not constently elite national programs, so even with a Greg Monroe and a few other top national recruits, the depth of a good Georgetown or Maryland or Virginia team will come from the local area.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
03-15-11 09:11 PM - Post#101202    

Nobody, NOBODY, in his right mind would go to Oklahoma for anything! (and I have family there)
Dial Lodge
Sophomore
Posts 170
03-16-11 09:38 AM - Post#101250    

Gee, this ridiculous thread started when someone from Bradley mentioned that he is the top candidate for the coveted Bradley job. Now it appears that Johnson is a certainty to take a job at Virginia?

I wonder if SJ knows he's a serious candidate for all these positions?

I wonder if Tommy Amaker knows he's a candidate for Bradley as well?
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-16-11 09:43 AM - Post#101251    

I am actually enjoying this thread quite a bit. All of the posts have enhanced my limited knowledge of the coaching scene, even though the information is conjectural at best. It helps ease the gnawing pain created by the abrupt departures of Carmody and JTIII.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-16-11 10:26 AM - Post#101266    

It shouldn't ease your gnawing pain. Any successful mid-major coach, by definition, is going to be an attractive target for other programs. Nothing's going to change that. The key, if you're a successful mid-major program, is to make your HC job as attractive as possible in order to draw the best and brightest small college coaches or D1 assistants once your current coach departs for a bigger job.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3994
03-16-11 10:46 AM - Post#101280    

NC State?
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-16-11 11:02 AM - Post#101284    

Wow....that is a really good opening. But who would work for Deborah Yow?
BradleyBrave
Freshman
Posts 22
03-19-11 04:05 PM - Post#101937    

If Amaker were offered the Bradley job, I feel very confident he'd take it. Word out of Bradley is that he is unlikely to be considered due to some of the ethical things that have popped up (whether they are true or not).
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts 4141
03-19-11 06:30 PM - Post#101946    

No way Amaker would take the Bradley job. Don't know whether you're trolling or deluded.

besnoah
Masters Student
Posts 803
03-19-11 06:48 PM - Post#101948    

Don't you know that coaches are falling all over themselves to take a job in a 3rd division conference for a team that's been to the tournament twice in the last 23 years?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
03-19-11 06:49 PM - Post#101949    

I don't disagree with you, but I think that there's a better chance that Amaker would take it than Johnson. He could conceivably see it as the next step to getting back to the BCS and a bigger payday than Harvard. Also, a little easier to get prospects in than Harvard.
Is Bradley the same conference as Butler? That would be a selling point.
Dmon826
Masters Student
Posts 637
03-19-11 07:04 PM - Post#101951    

No no no no no. Amaker doesn't need another stepping stone to get another BCS job. If he wants one, he can have one sooner rather than later (as soon as this offseason, possibly). He does not need to move to another midmajor coming off of a terrible year to begin another 3-4 year rebuilding project that he just now finished at Harvard. He's gonna have a top-50 team (at least) next year and will in all likelihood have turned around one of the most irrelevant programs in the country into a basketball juggernaut at its level. The one thing he doesn't need to do is to start that process all over again.

As for Bradley, it's not in the same conference as Butler (which is in the Horizon). The MVC is home to Wichita State, Northern Iowa, Creighton, Southern Illinois, Indiana State, Drake, Illinois State, and Evansville. In terms of program reputation, Bradley ranks around 6th on that list, and hasn't had any kind of significant success since that big doofus center Patrick O'Bryant (or something like that) led them to the tournament a few years back where they got to the Sweet 16, including an upset over Pitt. And of course they're coming off of their worst season in a long time (4-14 in the league, 186 Pomeroy).

Sydney Johnson, for his part, poured his heart and soul into the program he loves for the past five years and finally got it back to where it "belongs." Princeton, historically, is a better basketball program than Bradley by a fairly significant margin despite playing in a weaker conference. There is NO WAY he makes a lateral move away from his alma mater that he loves so much, and Bradley is at best a lateral move and much more likely a step down.

All of this is to say that Bradley in its current position would represent a significant step DOWN for either Johnson of Amaker. They both have much better teams than Bradley, they both just now got those programs near the top and would like to reap the rewards of their work, and both are in places they love and feel a connection to. That's not to say neither would jump ship eventually or even in the near future, but it would have to represent a significant step up in the college basketball universe. The idea that either would move to Bradley is laughable.
Redfish
Masters Student
Posts 767
Redfish
03-19-11 07:55 PM - Post#101957    

it's more likely a Bradley coach would come to Princeton.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-19-11 08:01 PM - Post#101958    

I don't want to turn the thread into a hate-on-Bradley thread, but I think it's analogously telling that Mike Cross, who was basically VP of Athletics at Princeton, moved to Bradley to become the A.D. (after which I'm sure he will try to become the A.D. at a Big6 school). The point is that Bradley did not get an A.D. from another D1 school to fill the vacancy, they got a former assistant.

I could see Brian Earl going to Bradley, but not Coach J.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
03-19-11 08:15 PM - Post#101959    

Yes, that *should* be the hype being generated -- Brian Earl being poached. And as much as I'd hate to see it, I can understand it. It's a mid-major head coaching gig for a buzz-worthy four-year assistant who's working for a head coach not going anywhere soon. Either way, however, Earl would be Choice #1-A should SJ decide to leave for a high major program eventually (say, in 3 or 4 years).

Not saying that Earl would want to leave anyway, but I couldn't blame him for entertaining the thought. Still, if I were Princeton, I'd absolutely beg him to stay. To lose him, I think, would be a major blow to the program. With BE assisting SJ, I can't imagine a better strategic brain trust. That's as big an asset as landing an elite recruit.
Albert08
Masters Student
Posts 572
03-19-11 08:31 PM - Post#101960    

This whole thread seems to have been started by a Bradley fan, based on the mere fact that Mike Cross is AD at Bradley and knows Sydney Johnson, who got a sudden burst of national attention on this past week. Other than that, there's no reality here - if offered, Sydney won't take this job, and Tommy Amaker won't take it, because he's coached in the Big East and the Big Ten. Why leave the Ivy League to go to the MVC? Totally implausible.
BradleyBrave
Freshman
Posts 22
03-19-11 08:52 PM - Post#101964    

That's the amazing thing, besnoah, Bradley has underperformed big time over the past two decades and yet it's still considered a plum job. And that's not me talking but folks on CBS, TNT, SI, etc.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-19-11 08:56 PM - Post#101965    

Apparently Bill Carmody re-applied for the job in 2007 and Sydney Johnson got it over him and other people. At least, that's what someone wrote on Wikipedia, haha. I wonder if that's true.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
03-19-11 09:05 PM - Post#101966    

  • puband09 Said:
Apparently Bill Carmody re-applied for the job in 2007 and Sydney Johnson got it over him and other people. At least, that's what someone wrote on Wikipedia, haha. I wonder if that's true.



That reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer re-applies to get his job back from Mr. Burns -- one door marked "Applicants" and a doggy door marked "Supplicants."
besnoah
Masters Student
Posts 803
03-19-11 09:17 PM - Post#101967    

I'm a pretty avid consumer of media.

No one is mentioning the Bradley job as a "plum" job.

I think the appropriate food analogy is "small fries."
timeout a media timeout
Sophomore
Posts 117
03-19-11 10:02 PM - Post#101973    

If you've been underperforming for two decades, you haven't been underperforming at all.
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
03-19-11 10:38 PM - Post#101976    

Why is anyone talking about this?
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-19-11 10:59 PM - Post#101978    

These articles discuss candidates and make no mention of any Ivy League coaches

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20110317/SPO...

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/sportscolumns/ x177782...

It looks like there are a number of more likely candidates (good ones, at that) than Johnson or Amaker. I'm not sure where this is all coming from.
BradleyBrave
Freshman
Posts 22
03-20-11 08:44 AM - Post#101991    

Two numbers say it all.

Bradley average home attendance in 2010-11 (with a bad team): 9300

Princeton average home attendance (with a good team): 2300

If Coach Johnson hadn't played at Princeton, he probably wouldn't be around at this point. I have great respect for his allegiance to the school but, c'mon, 99 basketball people out of 100 would prefer the Bradley job.
timeout a media timeout
Sophomore
Posts 117
03-20-11 10:04 AM - Post#101993    

Pretty funny. Perhaps you guys can get Brad Stevens. Average attendance at Butler is 7000 (and they went to the finals). Says it all!
Dial Lodge
Sophomore
Posts 170
03-20-11 10:19 AM - Post#101995    

Guys -

Let's stop arguing with Bradley Brave. He's not going to quit, and there's no reason to take this any further.


sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-20-11 11:05 AM - Post#102001    

  • BradleyBrave Said:
Two numbers say it all.
Bradley average home attendance in 2010-11 (with a bad team): 9300
Princeton average home attendance (with a good team): 2300

If Coach Johnson hadn't played at Princeton, he probably wouldn't be around at this point. I have great respect for his allegiance to the school but, c'mon, 99 basketball people out of 100 would prefer the Bradley job.



May I suggest you follow through on your advice to yourself on the Bradley board. http://www.bradleyfans.com/ (Thread: "How good is the BU job?")

It's never a good idea to visit someone else's house uninvited and demean their decoration.
Albert08
Masters Student
Posts 572
03-20-11 12:00 PM - Post#102005    

AMEN!!
BradleyBrave
Freshman
Posts 22
03-21-11 02:10 PM - Post#102124    

Hey, I'm sorry if I offended. I'm a lover, not a fighter. I'm not demeaning your program - it is a very good one, no doubt. I just think the BU job is a better one and that Coach Johnson will seriously consider it. Either way, I wish you guys the best.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-21-11 02:50 PM - Post#102128    

You didn't offend. It's just that the Princeton fans are still somewhat shell-shocked by what happened the last time another program poached their head coach. Total catastrophe. So they're still kind of touchy. If Johnson were to depart for another job, who knows how effective his replacement would be. We Penn fans happen to know exactly how they feel.

I'll reiterate what I said above: in some respects the Bradley job is undoubtably a significantly better basketball HC job than the Princeton one. In other respects (particularly for Mr. Johnson' specific situation), it's not any better at all, and might even be a bit of a step down. On balance, when you weigh out all the positives and negatives, I just don't see the job as being sufficiently better than Coach Johnson's current situation to warrant pursuing it.

Nonetheless, it's a obviously a plum job, and promising small college head coaches and larger program assistants should be lining up to interview for it.
Kit
Senior
Posts 380
03-21-11 03:53 PM - Post#102130    

BTW, when was the last time another program poached our coach?
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-21-11 04:05 PM - Post#102132    

Andy Katz talks about it:

"Princeton has received inquiries if it would allow Sydney Johnson to talk to Bradley and Towson. Huh? ... Bradley and Towson? Sure, there are connections with Bradley's AD Mike Cross, who was at Princeton, and Johnson has Maryland ties in the Towson-area. But leaving his alma mater, Princeton, a place where he has great emotional investment, for these two schools would only be a money grab.

"Meanwhile, Princeton has to do more to step up and keep Johnson. .... Johnson is a better fit where he is now and will likely see that to be the case, if he hasn't already, unless he gets an offer from an ACC school."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba ll/blog/_/...

In fairness, I don't know how he can compare Towson and Bradley, though. The Colonial League had 3 teams make the Big Dance, with one going to the Sweet 16 and looking really good. Just about says it all.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-21-11 04:52 PM - Post#102137    

  • Kit Said:
BTW, when was the last time another program poached our coach?



Is that a serious question?
Tiger86
Sophomore
Posts 173
03-21-11 05:50 PM - Post#102143    

Kit, just the last two that didn't leave with their tail between their legs!
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
03-21-11 07:08 PM - Post#102153    

"It's just that the Princeton fans are still somewhat shell-shocked by what happened the last time another program poached their head coach. Total catastrophe. So they're still kind of touchy."

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly wasn't "shell-shocked when either Carmody or JT III left. In Carmody's case, he had been with Princeton for many years as both an assistant and head coach (a lot longer than Fran Dunphy) and left for a higher paying post with a compatible program. In the latter case, JT III practically was weaned on Georgetown B-ball, but still supports Princeton. Sad to see them go -- of course. But shell-shocked or angry? No way.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-21-11 07:26 PM - Post#102154    

Not shell-shocked by JT III's departure per se, but by what transpired afterward.
Kit
Senior
Posts 380
03-21-11 07:32 PM - Post#102156    

I grok that.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
03-21-11 07:47 PM - Post#102158    

Live long and prosper.
Dial Lodge
Sophomore
Posts 170
03-21-11 09:13 PM - Post#102171    

Here's the full second paragraph from Katz's blog:

"Meanwhile, Princeton has to do more to step up and keep Johnson. These are no longer the days of Pete Carril, when a coach was just happy to be there. It's a competitive marketplace, and even if Georgia Tech or NC State were to call -- which are much more palatable jobs -- the Tigers, led by AD Gary Walters, must make the Princeton job work within the marketplace. There is money within the alumni base who love seeing their school in the NCAA tournament -- go get it. Princeton is an Ivy League power. Harvard has raised the recruiting ante in the Ivy, and now there is going to be serious competition for the top spot and a bid. So the competition to keep coaches has increased. Johnson is a better fit where he is now and will likely see that to be the case, if he hasn't already, unless he gets an offer from an ACC school."

Katz has brought up a question that I've always wondered about. How much does Princeton pay its basketball coach, and how does that compare to what is paid at mid-major and major schools? I've never seen any public listing of compensation for any Ivy coaches.

The Friends, if pressed, could raise the money to pay him a salary that would be significantly higher, but how would that fly if it was higher than that of key administrators or star faculty like Alan Blinder (and many other stars on the faculty that i'm too lazy to list)?


puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-21-11 09:20 PM - Post#102174    

I bet Cornel West gets paid an a$$-load. I think I read somewhere that he's the highest paid professor at Princeton, maybe even higher paid than Shirley "The Tildge" Tilghman.

I'm sure he'll get some kind of raise after this year. The real question is how much and on what terms. Gradual increase every year for 5 years? Bonus money for each future Ivy championship?

There's also the looming concern of Gary Walters retiring. In a video on GoPrincetonTigers.tv he is giving a speech to the staff and Friends in Tampa and refers to the Kentucky game as one of "two bookends" to his career as A.D., and goes on to discuss the UCLA upset and coach search which took place during his first year. He never referred to the other bookend again, but it only added to my concerns that he may be leaving soon.

Someone else with the industry experience and deep understanding of what it means to play sports (specifically basketball) at Princeton will be hard to find.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
03-21-11 11:14 PM - Post#102193    

  • puband09 Said:

There's also the looming concern of Gary Walters retiring. In a video on GoPrincetonTigers.tv he is giving a speech to the staff and Friends in Tampa and refers to the Kentucky game as one of "two bookends" to his career as A.D., and goes on to discuss the UCLA upset and coach search which took place during his first year. He never referred to the other bookend again, but it only added to my concerns that he may be leaving soon.

Someone else with the industry experience and deep understanding of what it means to play sports (specifically basketball) at Princeton will be hard to find.



How about Mike Cross from Bradley?
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
03-21-11 11:31 PM - Post#102196    

Unfortunately he's already got America's dream job in Peoria.
BradleyBrave
Freshman
Posts 22
03-22-11 06:23 AM - Post#102202    

  • puband09 Said:
Unfortunately he's already got America's dream job in Peoria.



That was a good one, dude, I gotta admit. Honestly, outside of the BU basketball job and a very good men's soccer program, I don't see why anyone would want the BU AD job. I think the Princeton AD job, overall, is much more attractive.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 05:34 PM - Post#103118    

We were both wrong (cus I said he would turn down these types of midlevel jobs), but I have to say, sparman, you were more wrong. because I'm juvenile like that.

Very disappointing for the league.
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-04-11 05:55 PM - Post#103131    

This whole thing is very odd and frankly disturbing even as a Penn fan. I get that it's more money, but couldn't Princeton counter with something competitive enough to keep their homegrown hero? Or do they feel that there are enough Princeton guys in the coaching pipeline that they didn't need to break the bank? If so I think that is extremely short-sighted.

I get Johnson going somewhere else to build his career, but freakin Fairfield in the MAAC? I'm a Penn fan, but that just doesn't make sense to me. BRF has been saying that Johnson's restrictions in aid & admissions were much more difficult at Princeton as compared to Harvard's. When a move like this happens it makes me wonder if he is right...

Johnson's recruiting classes have been pretty good, but outside Hummer & Barrett (recruited 2 years ago), the guys have been a step below Harvard's. This year after a great 2nd place finish, the Princeton class for 2011 seems a little disappointing considering the improvement.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 06:24 PM - Post#103140    

  • Mike Porter Said:
...but couldn't Princeton counter with something competitive enough to keep their homegrown hero? Or do they feel that there are enough Princeton guys in the coaching pipeline that they didn't need to break the bank? If so I think that is extremely short-sighted.


You wonder if he was perhaps offended by that. "Well, Sydney, we have Brian and Mitch and Mike all willing to take this job at your current salary so..."

And from Princeton's p.o.v., if you've resigned yourself to the fact that all successful Tiger/Ivy coaches will ultimately leave you anyway, why offer a raise at all? Don't get me wrong -- I'd give SJ the cash in a heartbeat. But I can see why Princeton would do otherwise. They prefer young, hungry coaches looking to make a name for themselves...and you don't need to offer big money to get them.

Again, considering Princeton's deep pockets, it's stingy as heck. But from a cold, cruel business standpoint, I can understand that thought process.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
04-04-11 06:32 PM - Post#103143    

Obviously, Princeton has the money. I just don't think it's realistic that Princeton, or any Ivy League school is going to be willing to match what a BCS or a committed mid-major is going to be willing to pay. The way the Ivy League looks at athletics is different. Princeton will always be Princeton regardless of what happens in basketball for 99.9% of the world. A school like Fairfield is going to get much more return on investment by spending on a coach and trying to make a name in basketball.
I'm not saying I like it, but if you root for Ivy League basketball, it's they way it is going to be.
Dial Lodge
Sophomore
Posts 170
04-04-11 06:33 PM - Post#103144    

This is what hapens when a recession reduces the endowment down to a mere $14-billion. No money kicking around for non-essentials like coaches' salaries.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-04-11 06:35 PM - Post#103145    

I would love to be at Shirley's next alumni meet, greet, and solicitation.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 06:35 PM - Post#103146    

  • umbrellaman Said:
Obviously, Princeton has the money. I just don't think it's realistic that Princeton, or any Ivy League school is going to be willing to match what a BCS or a committed mid-major is going to be willing to pay. The way the Ivy League looks at athletics is different. Princeton will always be Princeton regardless of what happens in basketball for 99.9% of the world. A school like Fairfield is going to get much more return on investment by spending on a coach and trying to make a name in basketball.
I'm not saying I like it, but if you root for Ivy League basketball, it's they way it is going to be.



Agreed. Well put.

T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-04-11 06:39 PM - Post#103147    

Fire Shirley. Get rid of some of the useless overpaid prima donna faculty like Cornell West & Paul Krugman. Maybe even some of those guys who lost all that endowment money. Not gonna happen though. They just go around telling each other how wonderful they are. Athletics don't matter. Princeton is for scholars.
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-04-11 06:42 PM - Post#103148    

I stopped giving unrestricted money years ago. If it weren't for the Friends group the program couldn't afford to do anything.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-04-11 06:50 PM - Post#103151    

This is a good point. I had thought about doing this a while ago, but unfortunately wasn't paying enough attention when this year's reunions-inspired appeal came.
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-04-11 07:28 PM - Post#103166    

  • umbrellaman Said:
Obviously, Princeton has the money. I just don't think it's realistic that Princeton, or any Ivy League school is going to be willing to match what a BCS or a committed mid-major is going to be willing to pay. The way the Ivy League looks at athletics is different. Princeton will always be Princeton regardless of what happens in basketball for 99.9% of the world. A school like Fairfield is going to get much more return on investment by spending on a coach and trying to make a name in basketball.
I'm not saying I like it, but if you root for Ivy League basketball, it's they way it is going to be.



I totally get that and I understand the thought process from the Ivy Administrations. I guess I'm saying they're short sighted if they don't see the value of having a great basketball program and a great representative for their school like Johnson was.

Fairfield reportedly was offering $500K per for Johnson. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but if Princeton wasn't willing to get close to that or at least offer more years and a nice raise, I think that was a mistake. Considering how Johnson acted every time someone with a mic said "Princeton" you have to think that he did not want to leave...

Obviously he was there a long time, but I recall people explaining that Dunphy was over $500K when he left Penn for Temple and a significant raise. Fair enough. I can understand if the Big 10, PAC 10, Big East or A10 come calling with the checkbook. I CAN'T understand if the MAAC comes calling...

I guess all I can do is hope that the Penn administration plays it differently if Coach Allen can revive the Penn program like Coach Johnson did at Princeton.


1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-04-11 07:35 PM - Post#103167    

  • T71 Said:
I stopped giving unrestricted money years ago.



I came to the same conclusion, but I was slow. Just made the decision this year.

Nevertheless, I can't express my disappointment over the loss of Sydney. I had a brief premonition this morning when I looked at the salaries of the big time head coaches in a USA Today article.

Obviously this is all about the money.

So is there any way we can compete??? Isn't there at least one filthy rich alumnus who loves the game? Personally, if I were said alumnus, I would endow the basketball coach before I built a dorm to be named after me. Better to enjoy the fruits of my wealth during my lifetime (a winning basketball program), than to be the name on a domicile for future undergrads. But that's just me....
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-04-11 07:43 PM - Post#103172    

I posted this on the Penn board, but you folks might be interested...

There is a lot of really interesting conversation going on Twitter about this between aglock, mrjames, BRF, etc. Andy brings up a point I'd forgotten:

Andy Glockner @aglock
@NorthstarBball In my Harvard story this year, Sydney wasn't very subtle in suggesting that Princeton needed to match Harvard's new emphasis

This really makes one wonder if Johnson is leaving because he doesn't feel he has the administrative support to win...
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 07:54 PM - Post#103177    

  • Mike Porter Said:
Andy Glockner @aglock
@NorthstarBball In my Harvard story this year, Sydney wasn't very subtle in suggesting that Princeton needed to match Harvard's new emphasis



During the UK game half-time interview, SJ made an interesting passing remark. To paraphrase:

"[Darius] Miller's a great player...I wish we accepted transfers so we could get him."
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-04-11 07:58 PM - Post#103180    

Jon Solomon on Twitter:

Princeton Basketball
@princetontigers Princeton Basketball
If Twitter still exists in 2015, we're likely to be having many of these same conversations unless changes to the system in place are made.

This concerns me as a Penn fan and it should definitely concern you guys as Princeton fans.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 08:04 PM - Post#103182    

I'm beginning to believe SJ is leaving at least in part to make a statement to Princeton/Ivy athletics.

Super high academic standards...good. No scholarships...fine. No transfers...whatever. But all three? Something's gotta give if you want to field a competitive team and give your players a great athletic experience. Combine that with a limited salary from a school with incredibly deep pockets, and it's not such a tough decision to move on.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-04-11 08:23 PM - Post#103190    

  • gokinsmen Said:
I'm beginning to believe SJ is leaving at least in part to make a statement to Princeton/Ivy athletics.

Super high academic standards...good. No scholarships...fine. No transfers...whatever. But all three? Something's gotta give if you want to field a competitive team and give your players a great athletic experience. Combine that with a limited salary from a school with incredibly deep pockets, and it's not such a tough decision to move on.



Your implication is that Princeton is simply not committed to a winning basketball program. Either that, or they believe that the program is bigger than just one guy, even the head coach, and they can win no matter what. I think they're being foolish, but time will tell.

I'm sorry to see Johnson go. He was a credit to Princeton and the conference.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 08:28 PM - Post#103192    

The second one. I think Princeton's shrugging and saying, "Hey, we're doing fine! We just won the Ivy and if we made one more 3, we would've knocked off a Final Four team."
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-04-11 08:30 PM - Post#103193    

Yeah. And one more unfortunate hiring decision and you're back in Joe Scott land. You may believe me, you may not, but I REALLY don't want to see that.

Perhaps Glen Miller would be interested? I bet he'd be cheap.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
04-04-11 08:35 PM - Post#103196    

I don't think that Princeton's commitment to basketball has changed. Although, that may be what is the problem. Princeton and Harvard have historically been at the same level regarding Academic Index - higher than the rest of league, with the possible exception of Yale. In order to accept students at a lower level, the school has to make it up somewhere else. Princeton may not want to admit more basketball players or sacrifice other programs.

So, from coach Johnson's point of view, if you are going to look to upgrade, then you do it now. Sticking around in the intermediate term may not be the best thing for your stock. Over the long haul, I'm not sure that Harvard maintains the commitment to basketball.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 08:36 PM - Post#103197    

No, I believe you. A fellow Ivy program (re)collapsing doesn't do anyone any good -- it makes the entire conference look weak in the eyes of recruits, media, and selection committees.

Fortunately, I think Earl-as-head-coach is so obvious that Princeton can't screw this up. And "worst case scenario" is Brennan or Mitch Henderson...which ain't so bad.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
04-04-11 08:39 PM - Post#103198    

If we want to avoid Joe Scott land, I'd go for Brian Earl. Scott seemed to be mimicking the tough love that Carril was famous for, and alienated his players. Brian Earl, as I recall, might have gone to Penn had Carril not retired.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-04-11 08:44 PM - Post#103200    

  • umbrellaman Said:
Over the long haul, I'm not sure that Harvard maintains the commitment to basketball.



I have the same suspicion. Harvard, as an institution, is still crazy for hockey. The students, admin and alumni have to care about that team far more than they do about basketball. Anybody noticed what's happened to Harvard hockey over the past three seasons? Not pretty. I can't imagine that the hockey coach and fans aren't already agitating to get those lower AI slots back from the basketball team, as well as for some budget reallocation.
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-04-11 08:48 PM - Post#103203    

Yeah but Harvard's rink is called Lynah East for a reason. That article about Amaker's lunches with those professors seems to show that Amaker has really won over the school and can probably get them to do whatever he wants to win at basketball whether it be lower their admissions standards, build a new arena, etc
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 08:50 PM - Post#103204    

He's already been scrubbed from Princeton's website:

http://www.goprincetontigers.com/SportSelect.dbml?...

That's the first diligent thing their web team has ever done.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 08:51 PM - Post#103205    

The full Gary Walters statement is pretty passive-aggressive:

  • Quote:
"We learned this afternoon that Sydney was going to take the job at Fairfield," Princeton Director of Athletics Gary Walters said. "We want to thank Sydney for his significant contributions at Princeton as the head coach of our basketball team. Obviously we're disappointed that he is not staying to carry on the tradition of Princeton basketball. But as a Princeton basketball alumnus, we wish him well as he takes another career step."


Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 08:53 PM - Post#103206    

That's not passive aggressive. That's what every press release ever written has read.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 08:57 PM - Post#103207    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
That's not passive aggressive. That's what every press release ever written has read.


Now that was passive-aggressive!
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-04-11 08:57 PM - Post#103208    

  • umbrellaman Said:
If we want to avoid Joe Scott land, I'd go for Brian Earl. Scott seemed to be mimicking the tough love that Carril was famous for, and alienated his players. Brian Earl, as I recall, might have gone to Penn had Carril not retired.



The 'tough love' (nice euphemism) was definitely part of it, but not all. After Carmody and JT3 each in turn loosened up the offensive and defensive strategies, allowing a faster tempo, more creativity and more decision making by the players, Scott slammed the door on all that, took the team back to ideological purity and stopped letting the players have fun and enjoy the game (not to mention, win). Better hope your next coach doesn't make the same mistake.
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-04-11 08:57 PM - Post#103209    

The tone of it is the same as what was said earlier, PU figures they will always have basketball success no matter who is coaching there, so if you dont want to work for our low pay go somewhere else and we will get another young coach
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 09:05 PM - Post#103210    

Let's say you weren't going to take that tone? What would you say in your press release?

Wouldn't you say thanks, credit him for recent success, and wish him good luck?

The long basketball tradition thing is the only mildly questionable thing but every press release tries to stress the positive. What were they supposed to say "We're #%$@ and will never recover"?
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-04-11 09:10 PM - Post#103211    

Probably reading into it too much but "Obviously we're disappointed that he is not staying to carry on the tradition of Princeton basketball." has that tone of sorry you didnt appreciate the privilege of coaching here as much as we do
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 09:20 PM - Post#103213    

Also:

1) "But as a Princeton basketball alumnus..." As if they're wishing him well out of familial obligation.

2) "...another career step." Specifically mentioning that makes it look like a purely careerist move as well as implying it'll be one of a series of career steps ("Hope you'll be smiling, Fairfield, when he leaves you for a BCS in 3-4 years!").
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 09:28 PM - Post#103215    

You guys are reaching.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 09:34 PM - Post#103219    

Well, I'm over explaining it with that career step one, but those phrases stuck out to me. Press releases are usually the most boring things in the world. Any kind of "personality" should raise eyebrows.
Tiger86
Sophomore
Posts 173
04-04-11 09:35 PM - Post#103220    

Not reaching. Just bitter. I can't even enjoy watching mid-major Cinderella take on big bad UCONN right now.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 09:36 PM - Post#103222    

But that's just it, there was no personality in there. that was bland as it comes. you're just emotionally involved.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-04-11 09:40 PM - Post#103223    

It's just like our YouTube argument. There's a fine line between being perceptive and being paranoid. Not saying I'm always right, but I do think you can glean real insight from little details.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
04-04-11 09:44 PM - Post#103226    

Haha, Sydney just went from being "the sh*t" at Reunions this year to mere sh*t. I'm guessing he'll join Michelle Obama on the not-attending list this year.
Tiger86
Sophomore
Posts 173
04-04-11 09:50 PM - Post#103230    

Shirley has earned some uncomfortable moments at reunions too.
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-04-11 10:21 PM - Post#103242    

I am so disgusted I cannot watch the National Championship game. Shame on Princeton if they didn't pay Sydney a competitive salary. Shame on Sydney for jumping on the first job that came up. Fairfield? Ridiculous! From your alma mater? Were all those humble words just a marketing strategy? The job wasn't done. The tears and hypocracy about commitment? What about loyalty to the kids you recruit? Disturbing on so many levels.
Tiger86
Sophomore
Posts 173
04-04-11 10:24 PM - Post#103245    

I'm with you T71. Thoroughly disgusted.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-04-11 10:28 PM - Post#103247    

He probably got his salary bumped by a factor of 2.5 to 3. Be honest-- who among us would turn that down? Furthermore, if he does a good job at Fairfield, in a few years he'll probably be in just as good a position to move up to the next level than he would have been had he stayed at Princeton. Meanwhile, he'll have banked some serious cash.
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-04-11 10:29 PM - Post#103249    

  • T71 Said:
I am so disgusted I cannot watch the National Championship game. Shame on Princeton if they didn't pay Sydney a competitive salary. Shame on Sydney for jumping on the first job that came up. Fairfield? Ridiculous! From your alma mater? Were all those humble words just a marketing strategy? The job wasn't done. The tears and hypocracy about commitment? What about loyalty to the kids you recruit? Disturbing on so many levels.



Be mad at PU for being cheap not Johnson, the guy has a family, would you turn down double the salary for a job that you will have an easier shot at getting back to the NCAA's next year?
mmp629
Junior
Posts 259
mmp629
04-04-11 10:29 PM - Post#103250    

I think he was so emotional because he knew he was on the way out...
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-04-11 10:30 PM - Post#103251    

Was his contact up this year?
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-04-11 10:37 PM - Post#103259    

bs. What if he doesn't move the needle at a 2nd or third tier school? Greed. What about being true to yourself. What about commitment? He sucked us in. He could have done a great job, gotten a big job later. Been a hero. Gotten paid but no he jumps on the first D1 job at a nothing school. It's not as if he was making chump change & Princeton's not exactly a bad place to raise a family.
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
04-04-11 10:42 PM - Post#103260    

Don't be so sanctimonious. Coaching is a profession.

Johnson doesn't owe Princeton anything. He was a cheap coach for four years. Now he is proven and in demand so Princeton has to offer competitive salary or lose him.


Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-04-11 10:45 PM - Post#103261    

If you or I took a huge compensation increase we'd say it wasn't greed, but a desire to provide for our families and to be paid what we're worth. Johnson does the same thing and it's venality.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 10:49 PM - Post#103263    

Yes, t71's reaction is everything that's wrong with sports fans. Ivy Leaguers are better than that.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
04-04-11 11:07 PM - Post#103269    

  • Mike Porter Said:
Obviously he was there a long time, but I recall people explaining that Dunphy was over $500K when he left Penn for Temple and a significant raise. Fair enough. I can understand if the Big 10, PAC 10, Big East or A10 come calling with the checkbook. I CAN'T understand if the MAAC comes calling...





500K sounds pretty high, you got a link?
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts 4141
04-04-11 11:09 PM - Post#103271    

No way Dunphy was making $500K at Penn.
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-04-11 11:58 PM - Post#103280    

Howard you would know much better than I do. It was a recollection but sounds like a bad one. Maybe it was $500K that Temple offered to get Dunphy to move?
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-05-11 12:03 AM - Post#103282    

According to this...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensba sketb...

...Temple pays Dunphy $706K.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-05-11 12:05 AM - Post#103283    

According to this, he was paid $300K at Penn (and "close to" $800K at Temple, thus your $500K figure).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
04-05-11 12:16 AM - Post#103284    

This is so weird to look at
http://www.fairfieldstags.com/splash.aspx?id=splas...
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-05-11 12:49 AM - Post#103293    

Our mistake was that we never gave SJ a loud, animated welcome banner complete with cheerleader GIFs.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-05-11 12:54 AM - Post#103295    

I, for one, checked "Skip this ad permanently."
BU GUY
Pre-Frosh
Posts 2
04-05-11 05:45 PM - Post#103409    

Sorry, Tiger fans - I really thought that SJ was on his way to Bradley to reunite with Mike Cross. Most people on this board thought that Bradley was a HUGE step down for SJ - but Fairfield???? Come on.............
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-06-11 09:06 AM - Post#103456    

press conf today at 11am
http://www.fairfieldstags.com/news/2011/4/5/MBB_04...
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-06-11 11:05 AM - Post#103463    

Interesting comment from the press conf that Fairfield's AD was at the Ivy league playoff
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-06-11 11:27 AM - Post#103468    

Listening to the news conference, Sydney sounds very excited to leave Princeton and work for an AD and University that supports him. He’s now finally part of something “special”. Now he has his dream and “loves Fairfield basketball”.


1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-06-11 11:33 AM - Post#103472    

For some reason I can't hear anything on my office computer. Sounds like a blessing!
Albert08
Masters Student
Posts 572
04-06-11 11:53 AM - Post#103473    

From what I heard, he thanked Pete Carril, JT III and all of his Princeton players....that was it. No nod to his assistant coaches at Princeton or any mention of the university, the fans, the students. It was also interesting how much he emphasized that the Fairfield community needs to welcome back Ed Cooley with open arms any time he returns to Fairfield. I wonder what he expects if he makes any halfway public return to Princeton.
My take is that the most important factor other than money was the support he must have felt he wasn't getting. Now he feels he has the support he wants.

Kit
Senior
Posts 380
04-06-11 12:12 PM - Post#103475    

Why couldn't the administration make Sydney an offer comparable to Fairfield's? Now we have to go through the coaching change carousel yet again. Hopefully, this won't be a four year cycle where we have to go looking for a new coach. The administration had better invest more heavily in the next coach or else...
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-06-11 12:24 PM - Post#103478    

It's either 1) priorities or 2) arrogance.

1) The university has decided that, given the other demands for resources, it simply cannot allocate more to men's basketball than it currently does, no matter how much it would like to. This seems implausible from an outsider's perspective, but it's certainly possible.

2) The university and AD believe that their men's basketball program is so robust that it can win no matter who is the coach (unless that coach's name rhymes with Moe Snot). Either that or they believe that the men's HC job is so attractive that they can always keep it filled with a top notch coach no matter how under-supported the team is.

People closer to the program than I will have to tell us which explanation is more accurate.
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
04-06-11 12:25 PM - Post#103479    

Is there anything necessarily wrong with a four-year coaching cycle? I mean, realistically the only way to avoid it would be to not win the Ivy League so your coach has no offers. Why not accept that Princeton's biggest role in modern college basketball is as a cradle of coaches?
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-06-11 01:05 PM - Post#103482    

Yes. It means you run the risk of picking a crappy coach (e.g. Joe Scott) and instead of going to the tournament every couple of years, you have to bring in a Princeton hero (e.g. Sydney Johnson) and wait 7 years. Are you sure there are enough heroes in the pipeline to rebuild every 4 years? If I was a Princeton fan I wouldn't be happy with that...
Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts 898
Red n Blue
04-06-11 01:09 PM - Post#103483    

I am not a Princeton fan and I am not happy with this. Losing the coach of the league champion to Fairfield is a big hit to the league's prestige.
Kit
Senior
Posts 380
04-06-11 01:32 PM - Post#103485    

I cannot accept Princeton's role as the hotbed of Division I coaches because it means not winning a substantial portion of time. I guess I was accostumed to having Pete Carril and the helm and every season was a winning one. With this coaching carousel in place, the Princeton dynasty appears finished.
Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
04-06-11 01:33 PM - Post#103486    

But I acknowledge that Princeton will not pay enough or provide the other support necessary to keep a successful coach. I admit that I am surprised that Fairfield was enough to lure Johnson, but when I look at the numbers and the other factors at Princeton, it is a minor league franchise that will not be able to hold a coach with major league ambitions.


Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts 963
Brian Martin
04-06-11 01:50 PM - Post#103487    

Is Sydney Johnson represented by Rick Giles '83 of the Gazelle Group?

Giles is/was the agent for Craig Robinson and Chris Mooney.
10Q
Professor
Posts 23368
04-06-11 01:50 PM - Post#103488    

Or to hire a coach who is intensely loyal to the school (at least until a really good offer comes along).
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts 1171
04-06-11 01:59 PM - Post#103489    

Or who thinks he's worth more than $35,600.

http://www.princeton.edu/hr/progserv/compensat ion/...
Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts 898
Red n Blue
04-06-11 02:35 PM - Post#103490    

If $35,600 is the actual figure that is an absolute disgrace.
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts 4141
04-06-11 02:38 PM - Post#103491    

That's the minimum.

And it's probably for the tetherball team.

But still, to have a number that low on an official printed document is embarrassing.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-06-11 02:40 PM - Post#103492    

  • Brian Martin Said:
when I look at the numbers and the other factors at Princeton, it is a minor league franchise that will not be able to hold a coach with major league ambitions.





This is a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who were around during the "glory days", but I suspect what you are saying is true.

Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts 4141
04-06-11 03:03 PM - Post#103494    

Except this is not a case of small-market Milwaukee not having the resources to compete with the Yankees or Red Sox. It's the Yankees or Red Sox choosing not to compete with small-market Milwaukee.

It's not like the League has chosen to drop the AI and Princeton is sticking to it or that Harvard and Yale have chosen to change the financial aid rules in a way that Princeton (unlike some of the others) can't afford. Princeton helps set the rules.

The transfer policy is just silly and Princeton can change that whenever it wants (and has). My point is that if it's true Princeton is not giving its basketball coach the support he needs, it's a terrible decision because doing so not only doesn't cheapen the brand it enhances the brand.

Even last night during the NCAA women's basketball final, the announcers repeatedly described Notre Dame as running the Princeton offense or the Princeton system. Like it or not, on a national level it's probably one of the the top two or three things most associated with Princeton.
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-06-11 03:11 PM - Post#103497    

Arrogance.
Albert08
Masters Student
Posts 572
04-06-11 03:12 PM - Post#103498    

"My point is that if it's true Princeton is not giving its basketball coach the support he needs, it's a terrible decision because doing so not only doesn't cheapen the brand it enhances the brand."

Could you rephrase this, please? Too many negatives (or too few?)


Quaker11
Freshman
Posts 19
04-06-11 03:41 PM - Post#103502    

Let me try:

If it's true Princeton is not providing the institutional support to stay competitive in the Ivies, they're making a huge mistake. They may be concerned that such "institutional support" as lowering AI or increasing FinAid cheapens the school and the program's brand/reputation; but in reality, they're dead wrong, and doing those things actually enhances the reputation/brand of the school.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-06-11 03:43 PM - Post#103503    

  • Howard Gensler Said:
That's the minimum.

And it's probably for the tetherball team.

But still, to have a number that low on an official printed document is embarrassing.



Even more remarkable when you consider how dominant Princeton has been in tetherball over the years.
Kit
Senior
Posts 380
04-06-11 03:53 PM - Post#103506    

We're the 2011 Ivy League tetherball champions!
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts 4141
04-06-11 03:57 PM - Post#103508    

Anything to give you a leg up for the Director's Cup, whatever the heck that is.

1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-06-11 04:01 PM - Post#103509    

Don't a lot of teams around the country use the Princeton Tetherball offense?
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-06-11 04:36 PM - Post#103511    

  • princeton72 Said:
Don't a lot of teams around the country use the Princeton Tetherball offense?



And that would be what, exactly? Standing stock still, ball in your hand, listening to the crickets chirp, avoiding eye contact with your opponent, waiting for him to scratch his nose before you serve?
besnoah
Masters Student
Posts 803
04-06-11 06:43 PM - Post#103519    

Isn't the Princeton Tetherball offense mostly wrapped up in post play?
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-06-11 07:27 PM - Post#103521    

  • princeton72 Said:
Don't a lot of teams around the country use the Princeton Tetherball offense?


The modern interpretation is to untether from the traditionally more inflexible style. Either way, we have more titles than Penn, and no one remembers when Harvard last won.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-06-11 07:43 PM - Post#103522    

I'm sure someone is going to jump in and say this whole tetherball schtick is stupid, and has hijacked the thread, but honestly, I am getting several chuckles out of it (very funny besnoah), although Siver Maple seems a little bitter.

So, wasn't it a former Princeton tetherball player who quit the team and dropped out of school, who eventually became the tetherball advisor for John Heder in Napoleon Dynamite?
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-06-11 09:59 PM - Post#103524    

Bitter? Because I believe that tetherball should be what it was intended to be? A fast-paced, fun, backyard activity that can be played with a beer in your hand? A perfect pastime for those with the attention span of a gnat because a game rarely takes more than ninety seconds? If thinking that a tetherball game that takes nearly three hours to complete and in which the ball never gets above groin level is an abomination makes me bitter, then call me Campari.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-08-11 09:20 AM - Post#103704    

We would, but then we couldn't call you a man of the people. Unless drinking parasitic insect acid is what makes one a man of the people.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3775
04-08-11 09:52 AM - Post#103706    

A number of third world populations obtain a significant proportion of their dietary calories and protein by eating bugs. That sounds pretty 'man of the people' to me.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
04-08-11 12:07 PM - Post#103722    

OK, you're a man of the Third World people. I can live with that, and I'm sure they would love to bunk at your place for a while.

Are the bugs available on the Penn student meal plan?

Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3618
Mike Porter
04-08-11 01:32 PM - Post#103727    

I wouldn't say they are "available" in the meal plan, but I'm a realist, so it's probably safe to assume they are included free of charge.
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 7001
Chip Bayers
04-08-11 11:20 PM - Post#103776    

Developing World, please. Third World is out, not least because the Cold War ended more than 20 years ago.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
04-09-11 03:44 AM - Post#103781    

Can't we reminisce for the good old days of the Cold War?
EddieAlberto
Freshman
Posts 9
04-09-11 09:32 AM - Post#103785    

I don't feel bad for Princeton University or its basketball program. The decision to keep Sydney Johnson, or turn him loose, was completely within the University's control and the University made a business decision.

Obviously, noone can feel bad for Sydney Johnson. He too had a great option which was to leave for a job where the program is committed to winning, where he is wanted and where he will make more money. he just has to deal with the short term hypocrite label.

The ONLY victims in this situation (as is usually the case) are the returning players and the new recruits at Princeton, who chose Princeton as their university of choice to play basketball in large part because SJ was the head coach and they believed in his loyalty toward them. Those kids have no ability to control any part of this, and they are the ones who are now left scrambling to make the best of what has been dropped in their laps. Their options are far more limited than anyone else affected by this.

I can only imagine the last meeting between SJ and Doug Davis. "Hey Doug, thanks for that buzzer beater. I am now headed off to greener pastures. Good luck in your senior year with a new coach."
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-09-11 10:06 AM - Post#103787    

I wouldnt call him a hypocrite, Johnson has a family too, he went for the money and better administrative support. Sure the kids get screwed but until the NCAA makes some changes the kids will always get screwed. They know that their coach could leave any given year. If they allow coaches to leave like that then the kids should be allowed to transfer anywhere without sitting out a year, its only fair.

The coaches make hundred of thousands to millions of dollars and the kids who do the actual work get $0. In the Ivies they dont even give them a scholarship for their work. At a lot of the big schools you hear about how they force the kids into easy majors and just push them through to stay eligible but they never graduate. The problem is if you pay the kids I dont know how much, is it the same at every school, does it depend on if you are a starter or not, and how do you avoid schools like UK paying extra
penn62
PhD Student
Posts 1053
04-09-11 10:27 PM - Post#103798    

Why the usual assumption that the kids get screwed? The new coach whoever he may be could turn out to be a better leader than SJ. After all, SJ was not exactly loaded with head coaching experience.
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3666
04-09-11 11:08 PM - Post#103800    

Well, dealing with a sudden transition is always tough -- even if the new guy turns out to be great. And there's the incoming recruits who signed up for Princeton with the understanding that SJ would be there.
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-09-11 11:37 PM - Post#103804    

gokinsmen pretty much said it

To your comment about finding a better leader, I think PU will have a tough time finding a better coach, maybe as good but Johnson did about as good as a job you could do in 4 years from where PU was when he started
EddieAlberto
Freshman
Posts 9
04-10-11 12:05 PM - Post#103813    

My main point about the kids getting screwed is that they are the only parties without the ability to CONTROL any part of the situation.

There is nothing more exciting for a high school basketball player than to commit to a D1 university. Even in the Ivy League - I would say even more so in the Ivy League due the absence of scholarships - those kids committed to their schools for the love of the game. Then, before you barely have a chance to plan for your freshman year, the main reason that you committed to that school decides to leave. (The head coach is a huge part of the committment decision in 10 out of 10 cases). But, its now too late in the recruiting process to really look elsewhere, so now what? Again, its back to that lack of control issue which makes it so unfair for next year's freshmen class.

As for the returning players at Princeton, even if the next coach is Brian Earl or Tony Newsome or "a Princeton guy", its not SJ and SJ is the only guy who pulled the trigger and committed to recruit the guys that are there now. So, the next coach still requires essentially starting over, especially if they hire a guy like Earl who has never been a head coach before. So, next year's Princeton sophomores cannot be happy, yet do they really want to look somewhere else and sit out a yeat at this point?

Ask last year's Cornell seniors if things were a bit different playing for a guy like Donahue who recruited them and had been a head coach in the Ivy League for 10 years, as compared to playing for Courtney who had never been a head coach and had never even coached in the Ivy League. Not a criticism of Courtney, its just different and noone wants to do that going into their junior or senior years. Do you think Doug Davis is ticked off right now? I bet he is.

So, thats how the kids get screwed - the absence of meaningful choice and control.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
04-10-11 12:48 PM - Post#103815    

Of note, in the last 4 years - (prior to 2007-2010 seasons) there have been 183 coaching changes, representing 166 different colleges in Men's Division I. Note that there are 346 colleges in Division I, so there is about a 50% chance that a coach will leave a school during a player's four years.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
04-10-11 01:03 PM - Post#103817    

Well, sadly, any time a coach decides to leave for another position the players, present and recruits, are likely to feel a little resentment. No way to avoid that. Of course, the compensation, hopefully, is that the choice of the school outweighs the choice of the coach. I don't imagine that any of Princeton's current players regret's his decision to come here even though his coach has decided to move on. It is the job of Johnson's successor to persuade people like Clay Wilson that he is making the right decision to stick with Princeton because a) the university is more than just a basketball team, and b) the team will continue to be successful under Johnson's successor.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
04-11-11 10:01 PM - Post#103926    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95lTJb2jkZg#t =2m11s

Where have I heard THAT line before? Johnson was the ultimate salesman at Princeton, but this "passionate" act isn't going to work much longer.

Not that it needs to with his coaching abilities.
T71
Sophomore
Posts 161
04-12-11 10:06 PM - Post#104002    

Hey, how can anyone question Sydney's sincerity?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
04-12-11 10:16 PM - Post#104004    

I noticed that he wasn't wearing his orange tie.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
04-13-11 02:12 AM - Post#104017    

I hope you're being sarcastic.
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
04-25-11 08:56 PM - Post#104765    

Wasn't sure where to post this, so here we are. Guy Gadowsky, the 7 year head coach of Princeton men's ice hockey, resigned today to become the inaugural head coach at Penn State.

I'm sure it's kind of a dream job for many hockey coaches, and certainly comes with a pay raise, but following college hockey as closely as I do, I think demands will be impossibly high.

Playing as part of the Big Ten Hockey Conference, they're going to be going against most of the best teams in the country, who already have deep recruiting roots in parts of the country where hockey is a bigger part of life than rural Pennsylvania. He's a good coach, so maybe he can work his magic.

Anyway, he joins a long list of successful Princeton coaches to leave winning teams and a secure job future for another school. Will this ever be addressed?
cornellfan4
Masters Student
Posts 543
04-25-11 09:21 PM - Post#104766    

Yeah well you cant blame him with the kind of money that was thrown Penn State's way to start a hockey team but you are right with that kind of money they will expect him to win quick.

As far as successful PU coaches leaving for more money or to a big money league, is that really unique to PU? Isnt that just the life of any Ivy league schools or mid major? Same situation happened to Cornell last year with Tambroni leaving for PSU and Donahue to BC
puband09
Masters Student
Posts 782
04-25-11 09:25 PM - Post#104767    

Sure, but it has seemed a lot worse at Princeton lately, ever since Tierney left.

I am not the first or only Princetonian to notice this apparent change for the worse, so I think there is at least some truth to it.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-25-11 09:46 PM - Post#104768    

but Tierney says he took a pay CUT!
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2814
04-26-11 07:29 AM - Post#104774    

Splitting my time between the East Coast (Baltimore) and a modest little town in Southwestern Colorado, I can understand why someone, after a full career at Princeton, would want to move west. Eventually, despite its many offerings, the East becomes oppressive for some of us. The pace, the weather, the lack of open space and public land, the self-satisfaction .... I can't speak for Tierney, but I know a few Easterners by birth and upbringing like myself who get bit by the Western bug and never recover.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
04-26-11 08:48 AM - Post#104776    

You are preaching to the choir, dude. Soon as I can, I head for the Wasatch!
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3052
03-11-19 02:12 PM - Post#280645    

Sydney Johnson has been let go by Fairfield.

https://www.ctpost.com/sports/article/Fairfi eld-fi...

- The Stags were 9-22 this season, losing to Manhattan in the first round of the MAAC tournament last week. Johnson was 116-147 in eight seasons at Fairfield, yet earned a contract extension after leading the Stags to the MAAC championship game a year ago. -

- “I want to thank Coach Johnson for his commitment to Fairfield. He has led our program with integrity, served as a great mentor to our student-athletes and been a valued member of the University community,” athletic director Paul Schlickmann said in a statement. “We wish him and his family the very best in the next phase of their journey.”

Johnson arrived in 2011 after leading his alma mater Princeton to 47 wins over two seasons and a 66-53 records in four seasons. His 2010-11 team qualified for the NCAA Tournament.

Johnson replaced Ed Cooley, who left Fairfield for Providence. Cooley was 92-69 in four years at Fairfield.

“I can't thank Fairfield University, Mark Nemec and Paul Schlickmann enough for the opportunity I was given to lead the men's basketball program for the past two seasons,” Johnson said. “My family and I will always be indebted to the Stag Nation for the memories over the years. I wish our student-athletes, alumni and fans all the best moving forward.”

Johnson was 68-84 in the MAAC, twice reaching the conference tournament final (2012, 2018). -
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-11-19 02:18 PM - Post#280649    

Wow. Thanks for the update. Sic transit.....
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-11-19 04:05 PM - Post#280672    

I was and still am very sorry to see him leave Princeton. He did not have a lot of recruiting success at Fairfield. And his success at Princeton was with players recruited by J-- S----. How would he have done if he had stayed???
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 476
umbrellaman
03-11-19 07:43 PM - Post#280711    

I don't think that's right with regard to recruiting. Johnson went 3-11, 8-6, 11-3 and 12-2 in his 4 Ivy seasons. Only Maddox and Mavraides were holdovers in his last season. Here was Johnson's recruiting classes at Princeton. I think Fairfield turned out not to be the right fit.

2008:
John Comfort
Doug Davis
Max Huc
Patrick Saunders
Zane Ma
2009:
Mack Darrow
Gus Gabel
Ian Hummer
Jimmy Sherburne
Brendan Connolly
Will Barrett
2010:
Chris Clement
TJ Bray
Daniel Edwards
Ben Hazel
Tom Noonan
2011
Brian Fabrizius
Bobby Garbade
Denton Koon
Clay Wilson
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-11-19 08:46 PM - Post#280716    

Your compilation proves your point; I stand corrected. But J-- S---- gets a lot of credit for Mavraides and Maddox.

So where does SJ go now?

Is Brennan next to go?
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-11-19 08:47 PM - Post#280719    

BTW, Jimmy Sherburne's younger brother just made Academic All American at UMBC.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4911
03-12-19 01:58 PM - Post#280834    

He seemed to like it there, they paid him more, and he had a pretty long run, so it's hard to say he made a mistake by moving to Fairfield. But it still seemed like an odd choice to make at best a sideways move in basketball terms, to a school with less relative recruiting pull. I wish him the best--he did a very good job at Princeton and was a class act.
Dial Lodge
Sophomore
Posts 170
03-12-19 03:43 PM - Post#280853    

Sad to hear this. He did a good job at Princeton, and we sad/horrified to hear that he was leaving.

Even though Fairfield was at best a lateral move from Princeton in terms of prestige and recruiting cache, they paid him quite well (well over $300,000 when I looked a number of years ago, and as best we know, that is far more than Princeton pays its head coach.

Hopefully, he'll land well.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-14-19 08:51 PM - Post#281379    

  • 1LotteryPick1969 Said:
Your compilation proves your point; I stand corrected. But J-- S---- gets a lot of credit for Mavraides and Maddox.

So where does SJ go now?

Is Brennan next to go?



Actually may be Mooney

https://www.richmond.com/sports/college/woody- anon...
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
03-19-19 11:05 AM - Post#282041    

In other former coach news, a local radio report this AM said that JT3 is a candidate to coach at GW, which just fired its incumbent.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1146
03-19-19 11:30 AM - Post#282047    

  • sparman Said:
In other former coach news, a local radio report this AM said that JT3 is a candidate to coach at GW, which just fired its incumbent.



They definitely can do worse than JTIII.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3052
03-19-19 11:40 AM - Post#282050    

Mooney will get another year (his 15th) at Richmond.

https://wtvr.com/2019/03/18/chris-moon ey-returns-t...
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2274
1LotteryPick1969
03-19-19 01:53 PM - Post#282077    

I'm happy for him, but one more year is probably it unless he makes the NCAA.

JTIII would be an excellent fit for GW. I hope he get the job.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1346
sparman
08-31-20 10:23 AM - Post#312486    

JT3's father and former outspoken Georgetown legend John Thompson died today. I believe he was instrumental in getting JT3 to attend Princeton due to his respect for coach Carril.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/jo...







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