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Username Post: Jack Montague
roarlionroar
Freshman
Posts 55
02-22-16 06:10 PM - Post#202456    

Is there any word of him coming back? If he does not return, that is a huge loss for the Bulldogs as it thins out an already short rotation.
OneIvyOne
Junior
Posts 201
02-24-16 05:36 PM - Post#202559    

He has withdrawn from school for personal reasons. I feel bad for the Senior.
LionFan
Senior
Posts 398
02-25-16 09:46 AM - Post#202598    

Must be difficult for Montague to withdraw so near the promised land, both academically and athletically. Not to belittle that, what does the substitution of Dallier into the starting lineup do to the Bulldogs' performance and chances? He wasn't pulling big minutes before having to step up.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-25-16 10:42 AM - Post#202603    

We won't get enough evidence to test this with the paltry sum of games remaining, but to the extent that Dallier can play 30-35 minutes with little drop off in his own abilities after crossing 20 or so mins a game, Yale might be okay here. The Bulldogs will be different (Dallier is more defense than offense vs. Montague) but the expectation is that Dallier could replace Montague's production net on both ends pretty closely.

The biggest issue for Yale is what happens when Dallier (4.6 fouls per 40) and Victor (4.7 fouls per 40) get into foul trouble in a tight game. While Dallier might keep the curtain up, at this point the VORP of Victor and Dallier over the rest of the Yale guards is massive, so the more minutes Victor and Dallier can't play, the odds of losing will rise significantly.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-25-16 10:56 AM - Post#202605    

I assume that Ghani couldn't go against Penn, as well, presumably because of the broken nose. So not only do they have a huge dropoff after their top 3 guards (without Montague), but the guy who would have moved from 5th guard to 4th guard is dinged up as well.

I'm a little surprised Jones hasn't tried playing Mason and Copeland together. He's shown a willingness to play small with Mason and Montague together, so it can't just be a question of size. I assume defense is the issue.

Another answer is to go the opposite direction and play big. Sears is a dynamic player who can do a lot of different things. Jones could play Sears, Downey, and Sherrod at the same time. I assume that would take Sears away from the oboards, though, which i guess might neutralize one of Yale's big advantages.

HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-25-16 11:59 AM - Post#202612    

I observed that Yale seemed to play differently against Harvad than they would if Montague was playing. That's inevitable when you lose one of your two ball handlers (he's second in assists) and leading 3 point shooter.

It's not a question of whether Dallier can fill in without a drop off. Yale is just not as versatile and deep. Bottom line, Yale shot 5-29 from 3 in its last three games, 1-12 against Princeton.

Yale is still very good, just not as complete a team as it was.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-25-16 01:01 PM - Post#202616    

Yes, I think Yale needs to make choices now where they won't be as complete. I think with Dallier they kind of choose to go with defense, but they lose ball-handling and the ability to get clear for 3s (though when Dallier gets looks, he hits at a similar percentage to Montague) compared to Montague.

I think due to the short rotation there has been a tendency to underestimate Yale's versatility -- their rotation of 7 with Montague did a lot of different things well and could show different looks, size mixes, etc. But you take out that one key guy and it starts to look very different.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
03-01-16 11:24 PM - Post#203115    

Troubling stuff in New Haven - http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/03/01/baske tbal...
Bears03
Freshman
Posts 59
03-04-16 10:48 PM - Post#203426    

Very troubling indeed, but not limited to New Haven. The way college campuses deal with sexual allegations is unacceptable in this day and age, which unfortunately this appears to be.

In my humble opinion, the School has an obligation to educate, and the police have an obligation to protect and serve that community. When the school tries to overstep into legal matters they mainly choose to suppress information, then act in a self-serving reactionary way with little to no due process for either side which often results in an unsatisfactory result for both parties but protects the reputation of the institution.

In this particular incident without knowing any more information than has hit the press I can't help but feel for the kid that has dedicated his entire life to these last few games on the road to the Tourney which were taken away from him and won't ever be given back even if his name is eventually cleared. In the meantime opposing factions are wasting no time implying his guilt through posters all over campus that have now made international press while any alleged accuser remains completely anonymous.

This board in particular is filled with Ivy alumni that have all been through a similar four years, and it's a shame that we haven't been able to advocate for a more transparent process, at least equal to our justice system's innocent until proven guilty.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-05-16 02:38 AM - Post#203443    

Bears03 makes a lot of sense here. It's hard to see how universities are better qualified than the criminal justice system to deal with sex crimes. And there is some evidence that Yale specifically has some issues:
http://www.mindingthecampus.org/author/kcjohnson/
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2260
1LotteryPick1969
03-05-16 05:06 PM - Post#203487    

Thanks for the link. Utterly fascinating discussion.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-05-16 08:39 PM - Post#203515    

Yeah so I think it's kind of interesting that a bunch of old guys are deciding what's what with the delicate situation of sexual assault given a bunch of old guys basically have gotten us into this situation to begin with.

Here's what I know:
1. At some point on some college campus, some guy has sexually assaulted a woman and gotten away with it even when it's reported because of he said/she said.
2. At some point a woman has probably falsely accused a guy of sexual assault on a campus.
3. Some how, whatever the ratios are, the great majority of sexual assaults seem to go unpunished.
4. That is probably really really frustrating for women.
5. If I was Montague's friend, I'd probably want to show support for him.
6. If I was the woman's friend, I'd want to show support for her.
7. Most of the fans shouting Montague's name last week were probably not close personal friends.
8. That had to really really suck for the woman.

Innocent till proven guilty actually doesn't work for most sexual assault cases. I'm not proposing we throw that idea out. Not at all. But he said-she said has basically tilted to he said always wins.

Unless there are two or more she's. See Bill Cosby.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-05-16 09:14 PM - Post#203525    

Can someone tell me why Colleges, not just the Ivies, think they are better dealing with sexual assault that law enforcement?
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-05-16 09:35 PM - Post#203533    

Bro,

http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-se xual-vi...

http://time.com/2905637/campus-rape-a ssault-prosec...

http://feministing.com/2014/04/11/stop-telli ng-sur...
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-05-16 09:35 PM - Post#203534    

They certainly don't think they're "better", other than being better at covering it up.

Colleges do everything they can not to publicize this stuff for fear of tarnishing their precious brand. When you combine this with the athletics department, which in most places is a cash cow, the incentive is even stronger to whitewash and protect.

At least the Obama Administration has now compelled colleges to release data on this, which for too long they've been holding off on doing.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-05-16 09:35 PM - Post#203535    

And I don't even really buy into all of this. But it's like this is the first time you all are hearing about these concepts.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-05-16 09:46 PM - Post#203536    

Kind of sweet though that this Montague story is going to be a huge distraction from Yale's winning the Ivies. The Yale players should come under a lot of scrutiny for their behavior over the past few days.
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
03-05-16 11:59 PM - Post#203565    

Apart from the work by which you have all come to know me, I serve as a member of the board of directors of a Crime Victims' Center serving a county with a population of approximately 450,000 persons. Crime victims' centers may counsel all victims of crime or may be specialized as a rape crisis center.

A college sexual assault victim (or any sexual assault victim) is best served by a professional sexual assault counselor working under the auspices of a rape crisis center which is independent of both the university and the police. The counselor can properly advise the victim, help her make an informed choice regarding the criminal justice system and assist her regarding other types of victim support.

I do not speak for all crime victims' centers. However, it is certainly our view that the criminal justice system, for all its flaws, tends to treat victims better than campus judicial processes which do not afford basic protections to victims such as rape shield laws.

Disclosure of campus crime statistics is not new. On the federal level it goes back at least 25 years to the Clery Act.

And while the stereotype of a college campus protecting its reputation by concealing sexual assault is based on reality, overcompensating with campus-based kangaroo courts destroys public faith in the credibility of victims.


SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-06-16 02:09 AM - Post#203568    

Stuart Suss again makes sense. Contrary to Jeff's assertion I've been following this issue for years. What has changed of late is that the Department of Education's Office of Equal Opportunity has issued, without any hearings or comment. a ukase that schools must a) lower their evidentiary standards for conviction in a sexual misconduct case from 'clear and convincing" to "preponderance of evidence" (50.00001% likelihood of guilt leads to conviction), b) the accused should not be given an opportunity to confront, much less cross-examine, the accuser, and c) systems that have a designated person act as investigator, prosecutor, jury, and judge are preferred if a school wants to avoid OEO heat. Failure to comply leads to an enhanced risk of embarrassing investigations, government lawsuits, and possible termination of all federal funding under Title IX. When Harvard knuckled under, a boatload of its law school faculty publicly opposed the new system. A driving force in writing the protest letter was a woman who pioneered pro-accuser reforms in the criminal law on rape who believes that the lack of due process will be an engine of injustice and resentment.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-06-16 07:42 AM - Post#203570    

PN, This is where I part company - they were supporting their friend. They basically don't believe Montague could do what he's accused of and feel Yale wronged him. That would be very upsetting to them. They probably didn't voice this quite right but that'st he challenge.

Stu and SRP, you make a lot of sense here. But I think we'd all agree it hasn't quite turned out well for women in putting their faith in the criminal justice system. I can definitely see the allure of wanting to try something else even as it could (will?) end up backfiring. The main problem I see is that actually in most cases the evidence will come out not 50.0001 but 50.0000%.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-06-16 11:03 AM - Post#203589    

Jeff--I hear you but there must be a way to be quietly supportive of your teammate without casting aspersions on the victim (whether alleged or real).

Belatedly, our country is waking up to the tremendous problems of sexual abuse in the country and especially on college campuses. For far too long a significant proportion of women have been victims here, and the institutions that govern our society (including those of the university) have exacerbated this issue and remedies for ameliorating it.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-07-16 11:27 PM - Post#203723    

PN is regurgitating a claim that has been exploded. In fact there is no new epidemic of sexual assault on U.S. women, and college campuses are not more dangerous than anywhere else for women in that demographic. Politically motivated bodies and individuals have been advancing that thesis and made great headway through repetition in convincing many well-meaning people, but the data fall apart upon any kind of critical analysis. There has been a transformation of courtship conventions and an increase in students equating intoxication with relaxation, both of which have increased the ambivalence and confusion around sexual behavior on campus.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-08-16 08:26 AM - Post#203738    

Good luck to you with that stance, BRO.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-08-16 11:29 AM - Post#203754    

We don't know whether Montague is innocent or guilty.

We can be reasonably sure that old white guys pontificating about changes in courtship rituals on college campuses is misguided gibberish.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-08-16 12:39 PM - Post#203765    

I'm sick of hearing about your undisclosed, alleged sex crimes, Jack Montague.
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-09-16 03:43 PM - Post#203972    

Meanwhile, Cornell basketball learns what disclosed, criminal sex charges look like.

Also a Yale recruiting target.

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-09-16 09:23 PM - Post#204015    

Since my information about these topics comes primarily from publicly accessible journalism and social science conducted by younger people, many of them women, does that suddenly make my views valid? No. So my age and race are similarly irrelevant in invalidating them.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-09-16 09:47 PM - Post#204020    

I'm really surprised that you didn't add that "these alleged victims bring this upon themselves". I mean if you're going to be a reactionary then at least have the sense to fire all of your weapons.

  • SRP Said:
PN is regurgitating a claim that has been exploded. In fact there is no new epidemic of sexual assault on U.S. women, and college campuses are not more dangerous than anywhere else for women in that demographic. Politically motivated bodies and individuals have been advancing that thesis and made great headway through repetition in convincing many well-meaning people, but the data fall apart upon any kind of critical analysis. There has been a transformation of courtship conventions and an increase in students equating intoxication with relaxation, both of which have increased the ambivalence and confusion around sexual behavior on campus.



TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-10-16 01:55 PM - Post#204096    

While I'm sure you can find supposed credible research claiming courtship rituals are more confused now, I'm finding it hard to believe that today's rituals are any more confused than when I was a college student in the '80s.

Again, I don't want to jump to conclusions on any specific case. However I'm not buying "I was confused about courtship rituals" as a defense.

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-10-16 08:19 PM - Post#204156    

Wow, some of you shellbacks haven't heard about hooking up and the rarity of "dating" or couple formation on campus. Need to hit like a decade of posts over at Slate.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-10-16 08:28 PM - Post#204157    

I'm so confused:

The "courtship ritual" I don't understand is when the other four teammates on the court congratulate the player who just bricked a free throw!
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-11-16 02:18 AM - Post#204175    

Point shaving joy?
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-11-16 12:09 PM - Post#204194    

  • TheLine Said:
We can be reasonably sure that old white guys pontificating about changes in courtship rituals on college campuses is misguided gibberish.




I highly doubt this incident has anything to do with courtship.

Either that, or way more people in college than we suspected were actually serious about pursuing marriage on Saturdays.

TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-11-16 07:48 PM - Post#204236    

Oh, I agree. Was just using SRP's term.

If there's more consensual... uh... hooking up nowadays, or at least in theory, wouldn't that make it easier to find a situation that didn't involve a rape accusation?

Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-12-16 09:51 PM - Post#204307    

Before or after?
mmp629
Junior
Posts 259
mmp629
03-14-16 01:35 PM - Post#204429    

The plot thickens:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story/_...
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-14-16 01:44 PM - Post#204431    

Just in time to ensure this will be the only story you'll hear about Yale in the days leading up to their game.

Penn94
PhD Student
Posts 1461
03-14-16 02:28 PM - Post#204437    

At least the NCAA Committee did Yale a favor by matching them up with a school that has a worse sexual assault record than Yale?

T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts 1169
03-14-16 02:58 PM - Post#204442    

Now Hufnagel's been canned for alleged sexual misconduct.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/collegesports/article /C...
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-14-16 04:20 PM - Post#204449    

Interesting on Hufnagel, a guy many Penn fans wanted as head coach.

As for the Montague story, it's quite the coincidence that this comes out a day after the sports world is talking about the 30 for 30 on Duke Lacrosse.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-14-16 06:06 PM - Post#204463    

Montague's lawyer's public statement of course is one-sided. It does make specific factual claims about what it says are "uncontested" facts about the encounters between Montague and the accuser that make the expulsion difficult to rationalize. Unless there are other relevant facts not presented by the attorney, I suspect Yale is going to have problems going forward with this case.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-16 07:05 PM - Post#204473    

Well, it seems pretty obvious that there are additional facts here. Clearly there was an accusation. Unfortunately with these types of cases most of the evidence is generally going to be the statements of the alleged victim and the accused. We don't know precisely what the uncontested "facts" are, but clearly there is a dispute as to whether an assault occurred. The references to other actions taken by the alleged victim may shed some light on the veracity of the accusation, but they don't actually answer the question of whether an assault occurred.


bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-14-16 08:02 PM - Post#204487    

I watched the Duke Lacrosse 30 for 30 episode for the first time last evening and it was very disturbing. As a parent, it had to be simply a nightmare. Shame on the prosecutor's office, Newsweek, Duke University, etc. People wonder why our institutions, including the media, are losing credibility.

Hopefully, Yale conducted a careful and thorough investigation for their own sake and reputation of the school. Taking time and getting the facts right should always be the marching orders.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-16 08:21 PM - Post#204490    

Do you only have sons? I find it interesting that you focus on the nightmare of being the parent of the accused in these cases. Remember that the alleged victim is somebody's daughter as well.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-14-16 08:49 PM - Post#204492    

I have both. The point is simply that it is indeed a nightmare to the innocent, whether a boy or girl, when the criminal justice system completely fails due to the malfeasance of a prosecutor's office. The prosecutor was rightly disbarred after the NC Attorneys' Office investigated him. The media, including Newsweek, simply jumped to conclusions which ultimately resulted in a belated apology. I hope that you can put yourself in the shoes of those parents and former accused regarding this specific case.

The Montague case will ultimately stand on its merits. There should be no tolerance for him if indeed he raped the student.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-16 09:35 PM - Post#204499    

Well, admittedly I'm rather judgmental. I don't want to seem callous about the Duke situation, but I don't think it is hard to avoid situations where such an accusation can be made. Of course that doesn't justify a false accusation, nor does it justify prosecutorial failures. But it's not a situation where anyone looks particularly sympathetic to me.


SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-14-16 10:21 PM - Post#204510    

Montague's lawyer claims that the alleged victim did not actually lodge a complaint against Montague--that action was taken by some apparatchik over a year after the events in question had occurred. And SomeGuy is displaying what are sometimes called "white knight" tendencies--applying chivalric norms to a post-feminist world where they do not apply (as Montague's lawyer claims occurred with this sort-of "accuser").
Bruno
PhD Student
Posts 1414
03-15-16 01:11 AM - Post#204521    

The idea that situations like this are easy to avoid is certainly an old white man's view. This was not Duke Lacrosse. This was a one-on-one with two students who knew each other. Consentual one-on-one contact happens thousands of times a day on campuses, every day. The only way to avoid them would be to avoid one-on-one contact with a partner. I don't know many college kids - athletes or not - who can go four years like that. Or should.

It's an impossible situation, because you very often can't know what really happened, especially if the victim waits a year to share it, making any forensic research impossible. We don't know what happened, and we won't know. But if you're Yale, all you can do is allow a law enforcement process to unfold and do the best it can. And then react based on that. The University wants to protect its students and its reputation, but isn't equipped to adjudicate - in large part because they are far from an independent party.

Jack Montague may very well deserve to go to jail. If he did this, then he does. But because the right process didn't unfold to properly assess the situation - a law enforcement-led process - hIs expulsion was the wrong outcome.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-15-16 07:30 AM - Post#204524    

The avoidance statement is about Duke lacrosse, not Montague. I don't think the situations belong in the same conversation, frankly. It bothers me that, when a situation like this arises, we bring up an instance of a false accusation in a different context.

As for SRP's comments, I personally don't think parsing the alleged victim's reaction and how the allegation got into the process is at all dispositive -- if an assault occurred, I don't think there is a "right" reaction that can tell you whether or not the allegation is true. Admittedly, I'm sure there are all kinds of confirmation biases at play here for me -- I've known a victim in one of these types of cases, and I've never known someone who has been accused. So I naturally see the system and its frustrations from the alleged victim's side. That doesn't mean all victims are actually right, but I do lean that way, and I believe this is an issue where the system should lean that way as well.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-15-16 10:27 AM - Post#204535    

Interesting reading. An article by Patrick Witt, former Yale QB 'informally accused' of a sexual offense under Yale's procedures.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/11/03/se x...

Witt mentions that Harvard adopted similar rules more recently, leading to public objection by 28 Harvard Law Professors:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/14/re t...

The concerns seem to center on the possibility for a student to be punished - even expelled - after an informal process that lacks "fairness" and "due process." (words used by the Harvard Law Professors)

I don't know if Witt was exonerated, or if he sued Yale. Watching the Duke Lacrosse ESPN documentary last night - Fantastic Lies - it was clear that without due process and legal representation, the three students accused in that case would have been formally charged and expelled by Yale or Harvard. Only because criminal charges were brought did due process allow the attorneys for those players the opportunity to see and question the evidence, leading to the exoneration of the players, disbarment and jail time (one day) for the prosecutor, and a retraction from the "victim."

Weighed against the incontrovertible goal of eliminating sexual harrassment and offenses, these are extremely complicated issues.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-15-16 01:02 PM - Post#204555    

  • bradley Said:
As a parent, it had to be simply a nightmare.


I know one of the parents, it was. And they had to spend several hundred thousand in fees long before any settlement was in the picture. I know that justice is the objective, but we should be able to rely on public officials exercising reasonable judgment before making people incur such burdens.

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
06-10-16 03:53 PM - Post#207559    

Montague has initiated a lawsuit against Yale. Hopefully, at the end of the day, truth and justice will prevail; no matter what the outcome.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
04-01-19 03:25 PM - Post#283155    

An update on Montague's case against Yale.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story/...

- A federal judge has ruled that a former Yale basketball captain who was expelled for sexual misconduct can move forward with his lawsuit against the university.

Judge Alfred Covello, in a ruling released Monday, denied Yale's motion to throw out many of Jack Montague's claims, including that a Title IX officer improperly coerced the woman to cooperate with the complaint that led to his February 2016 expulsion.

The judge did toss out several of Montague's arguments, including that the school's actions were the result of a bias against him as a man. -


Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
04-01-19 05:18 PM - Post#283161    

For those who want the legal details, here is a link to the full opinion of the judge.

The opinion is 65 pages. The history of the case can be found on the first 18 pages. The portion of the opinion where Montague is allowed to go to trial on some of his claims pertaining to unfair procedures at Yale begins on page 27 and continues to page 49. Montague loses on his gender discrimination claim beginning on page 49.

Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
06-28-19 12:53 AM - Post#285435    

Jack Montague and Yale have reached a settlement of the case. The terms of the settlement have not been released and the various news articles have no information.

Montague's attorney is quoted as saying, “The parties have resolved the case to their mutual satisfaction.”

All that appears in the public record is a "Stipulation of Voluntary Dismissal" which states: Pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. P. 41, the plaintiff and defendants hereby stipulate that this case may be dismissed with prejudice, each side to bear its own costs and fees.


T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts 1169
06-28-19 09:36 AM - Post#285437    

Stu, what does "dismissed with prejudice" mean?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
06-28-19 09:40 AM - Post#285439    

It means it cannot be re-filed. The case is over...for good. And that is what happens when there is a settlement of a case. So far, no information is being released by anyone as to the terms, but given that it happened after the Judge ruled that Montague's case would go to trial, you have to assume that there was a fairly substantial payment by Yale.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
06-28-19 12:11 PM - Post#285445    

It is noted here that the settlement has occurred just after a decision was handed down by the Sixth Circuit that implies that any school accepting federal funds has to follow due process under Title IX, not just public schools. Yale obviously decided to cut their losses while the cutting was good. Hopefully the settlement includes granting him a degree.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
06-30-19 09:33 AM - Post#285466    

  • dperry Said:
Hopefully the settlement includes granting him a degree.



I was wondering about that as well. Presumably we'll get an answer soon enough--a quick check of Montague's LinkedIn profile will tell us.
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
06-30-19 06:20 PM - Post#285473    

Montague initially sought emergency injunctive relief which would have compelled Yale to readmit him. That request was denied. After that ruling Montague, over some student protest, was admitted to Belmont University's Adult Degree program in his hometown of Nashville.

The Nashville Post has reported that Montague obtained his undergraduate degree from Belmont.

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
06-30-19 06:51 PM - Post#285474    

Some people jumped all over Montague during the early days of the alleged scandal without facts - guilty as charged? Very serious allegations indeed that required a thorough and unbiased investigation so that the correct decision would be made by Yale although it is very challenging to make the proper decision in this type of case. Yale, like any university, needs to be careful as what actions they take as litigation is always a distinct possibility from either side. Does not surprise me that Yale ultimately decided to settle this matter and it may be for a substancial amount.

Everyone in this country should have a presumption of innocense but if they commit a crime or wrongdoing, there should obviously be consequences that fit the crime.

In a serious but less consequential matter, Princeton appears to have taken its time in the Cannady matter but due process is important. Princeton did receive some criticism in their handling which is not unusual,

Hopefully but perhaps unlikely, there will be less of a rush to judgement in the future -- we can only hope. Let the facts drive the correct outcome.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
07-01-19 08:02 AM - Post#285476    

Pretty big difference between an alleged sexual assault of a student and a late night drunken altercation at a Wawa where no one was hurt. I frankly think Cannady should have received what anyone else in that situation would have received---a slap on the wrist on a first offense.

Montague is far more complicated. From what I have come to believe from public information is that it is yet another case of frat boy behavior running head on into Me-Too. It's a blurry line in terms of criminal behavior, but a guy who is a star on the basketball team should know that his behavior will be scrutinized far more closely than some random frat guy and act more gentlemanly (proper word to use at Yale) with women. That is not to judge him criminally. But I don't think this accusation is made if there wasn't uncivil behavior involved.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
07-01-19 02:36 PM - Post#285482    

It strikes me that there are two separate issues that often get blurred by commentators.

The first issue is that an institution such as Yale has a moral and legal responsibility to create an environment where women are not abused by "frat boys" or anyone else. These institutions need to have well spelled out guidelines that are properly communicated to the student population. Yale or any insitution also needs to make sure that they have mechanisms in place to properly and fairly investigate allegations. I have no idea as to what was the climate created by Yale but if they did not properly administer a program, they would be subject to litigation by a woman or women and rightfully so.

As to Montague or any other student, they have a right to due process and receive fair treatment. They are not simply guilty because allegations have been made against them. They have legal rights and there once was the notion that you are presumed innocent unless the facts dictate otherwise. If you have violated a female supported by an unbiased investigation, you should receive the full consequences for your transgressions.

For someone who has been an oversear of this type of litigation, Yale or any other institution better be on their game or they will be spending endowment money to either party.

My issue with some of the comments previously made are a function of rushing to judgement prior to having facts. It is a disservice to all but a growing trend in this country, unfortunately. These are serious and challenging matters that should be treated accordingly.
james
Masters Student
Posts 776
07-03-19 10:11 AM - Post#285545    

My posts are all in reaction to the "final" judgement, all disclosures facts and circumstances to that end... Unless inebriated and without recall, these are my only posts on this subject.

I will tell my daughters of your concern. They hope to go to an Ivy and given their height, play sports. They are talented enough on all fronts.

It is my son I am worried about. The good news (for basketball) is he will likely outgrow me and push 7' according to the hand xrays. the bad news is I dont know if harvard and yale should be his top options like they were for me.

i am now thinking power 5.
james
Masters Student
Posts 776
07-03-19 03:38 PM - Post#285564    

https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/07/01/after-...

if you "prejudged" Montague and put him in the proverbial cage Soviet style refusing all the while to review the facts and circumstances of discovery....this frames it all quite well.

what they leave out are the settlement terms. back channel rumblings from the non "Trumpist" sect of the basketball alumni suggest its a healthy sum. these young guys are closer to the source.

i dont have primary info to this end but the qualitative framing puts nice lifetime PV math on value of the yale degree and Captaincy.

That is encouraging for the son of a plumbing contractor from small town TN, but still not fully just.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
07-04-19 05:58 AM - Post#285576    

So you choose a blog from a Trumpist to "prove" your point? What's particularly amusing about it is the subcolumn on the right of the page entitled "The Civility Problem." For that is exactly what got Montague expelled. For Montague to shove a paper plate down the shirt of a female classmate and not have enough civility when he was again sober to apologize and foster relationships with classmates rather than "conquests" evidences the same kind of character flaw as the final episode. The kid simply did not know how to relate to women as equals, a characteristic sadly common among the Trumpist set, including its Dear Leader. The reason Yale settled indeed was a potential flaw in its process---but that had nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of Montague himself. That is why, despite a payment of money to Montague, Yale apparently made sure he did not get a Yale degree. And yes, the value of that degree is enormous. So you can call him a winner---it does not appear that there were any winners to me. And again, as I said from the start, the problem was his lack of civility more than anything else.
james
Masters Student
Posts 776
07-04-19 09:21 AM - Post#285584    

“Professor”
I posted this article because besides a smattering of updates on your requisite sports sites, it is the most substantive and analytical.

There are a few things we have established. You didn’t got to Yale but love to post about Montague as if he did something to your own daughter though I don’t think you have children yet. I just note this for perspective reasons (my daughters at the very least appreciate your concern for them). You hate Trump and brand anyone who disagrees with you a Trumpist. This appears most visceral for you.
In this thread, we have apparently moved from presumed guilt on sexual assault to punishing him for lack of civility.
I suppose that’s a win for the home team. regardless based on my sources (which are multiple) that was expensive. Yale fought like hell to keep this loss out of case law. They won on that front so what’s say ~$10m when you could’ve pierced the veil of the $30bn endowment and made an entire trubunal (x com) process open fodder? Yes they have good attorneys.

We agree on one thing it appears. You love Dunphy. He recruiting me personally and I do too. I also love this country and “due process” and abhor kangaroo courts and their propensity to prejudge.

Happy 4th.



palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
07-04-19 09:31 AM - Post#285585    

Well, same to you. The only thing I'll say is that I certainly did not prejudge Montague except that the record clearly shows that he needed to learn to live with women. (BTW, I am older than you, have 2 grown daughters who, as millenials, both cannot stand Trump precisely because of his views of women). I only stated that I believe his expulsion would almost certainly have been upheld had he been given a full open hearing. I do not believe that he committed criminal sexual assault.


Just as a last thing, no--I didn't go to (nor apply to Yale). I attended Penn and Columbia Law School. I know a thing or two about the law. And this is a topic of interest for all Ivy grads---it has been discussed at length in other board. After all, if other Ivy grads didn't come on this board, who would you talk to?

See you later.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
07-04-19 02:26 PM - Post#285603    

It is not accurate that the author of the Minding the Campus article on Montague is a “Trumpist.” K.C. Johnson is a left- of-center historian who has been concerned about political correctness, and its anti-liberal impact on campus, for years, long before Trump was even a cloud on the political horizon. He co-authored a book on the Duke lacrosse rape hoax and has been following these issues from before that. So let’s avoid poisoning the well.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
07-04-19 04:11 PM - Post#285607    

It would not be surprising that Yale's defense team advised their client to settle this matter and I am believe that it was for a significant amount although we will never know as parties to the settlement probably mutually agreed to a non-disclosure clause. If Yale properly followed their own rules and conducted an unbiased investigation, I doubt that they would have settled based on my experience in these matters.

Someone like Montague or any other student deserves due process. There is very much a rush in this country to blow off due process if it does not fit a narrative, including both from the left and right. It is indeed sad to put it mildly. Reminds me of some shenanigans that have gone on over the past year in DC regarding due process.

You can only hope that Yale or any university is thoughtful and fair as to how they handle these matter to protect the rights of all parties, both women and men.

People who rushed to convict Montague or anyone else without due process will ultimately cost a university money. Administrations need to be thoughtful and diligent in performing their responsibilities as well as creating an environment that protects female students. If not, Yale and others will be wasting valuable resources.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
07-05-19 09:11 AM - Post#285624    

While Yale believed the risk of defending its process warranted a settlement, I wouldn't look at this as any sort of exoneration of Montague's behavior. It does not appear that he will receive a Yale degree (my opinion would change if he does), and there is non-disclosure of the terms. If the focus is on his behavior, as it should be, there was enough evidence to sustain the result that was reached. Hopefully, that message will not be lost.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
07-05-19 11:19 PM - Post#285656    

The settlement reflects that Yale had an exposure if the case went to trial. The settlement reflects that Yale had issues as to how they handled this matter relative to Montague. The settlement is not about Montague's actions but it says something about Yale's actions.

Montague's reputation has been tarnished for the rest of his life and the settlement only financially compensates him to some degree. There is no admission that Montague did anything wrong but the settlement suggests that Yale did something wrong.

Once again, there are underlying legal tenants in this country including due process and the presumption of innocence. A fair number of people are not fans of these concepts anymore and want to skip over or around them. Let the facts prevail at the end of the day which probably would have occurred if this matter had been tried. Hopefully, Yale and other universities are thoughtful and diligent as to how these matters are handled -- challenging task. Their insurance rates will be determined by their ability to handle these extremely sensitive and challenging matters -- not an easy task but ....



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