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Username Post: Cornell Game #1
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-28-17 04:47 PM - Post#219723    

Dartmouth Basketball
Predictions Update
Jan 28, 2017

• After losing to Columbia 66-54 yesterday, Dartmouth is now projected to finish the regular season 6-21 (3-11 Ivy).
• We currently rank Dartmouth as the #296 team in the country, and the #8 team in the Ivy.
• Next game: Sat, Jan 28 at #251 Cornell. Our power ratings give the Big Green a 26% chance to win.
"...no excuses - only results!”

GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-28-17 05:22 PM - Post#219727    

Were finally on ESPN! 7:00 pm 1/28/17

ESPN3

IVY LEAGUE DIGITAL NETWORK

CORNELL NOTES

DARTMOUTH NOTES


ONLINE RADIO CAST

STATS
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-28-17 06:35 PM - Post#219735    

Nice!
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-28-17 08:00 PM - Post#219742    

Half time summary:

10 team turnovers already. Think Boudreaux has 3. cant win games losing the ball. Our team is not playing any semblance of defense. Guilian and Miles jogging after their man. giving 3 pt shooters 6 foot cushions. Getting killed by a mediocre Cornell team. Urge you all to key on Guilien and Miles on defense. Not much to look at as they dont play tough and they dont play defense. Boudreaux got blown by once on a pump fake, but generall playing gettings well.

Barry: Started hot. Not playing particularly good defense. Missed last 3 three pointers. Running the offense. 8 points

Boudreaux: Turnovers...cant happen. Hes working hard inside. team getting him the ball way too late. 10 pts 7 rebounds so far. only one hitting the boards.

Smith: Not passing to wide open guys. Zero court vision. Missing open guys, taking awful driving shots. No defense at all. Awful

Wright: No defense. A couple of rebounds and points. No impact so far.

Sistare: Fair defense. Good shot or two.

Johnson: on the bench for a reason.


Wes/Ike: Nothing going on. A board and point or two. One block I think. Down 12 at half.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-28-17 08:24 PM - Post#219743    

thanks for the update
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-28-17 08:42 PM - Post#219745    

Taylor Johnson is a disaster. More turnovers than a bakery. Fouls, missed wide open layups. Boudreaux missing at the foul line
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-28-17 08:49 PM - Post#219746    

The coach wants Johnson on the floor. He said it in an interview recently. He sees something beyond the numbers.
"...no excuses - only results!”

GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-28-17 08:54 PM - Post#219748    

How did the game turn out?
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-28-17 08:56 PM - Post#219749    

Another poorly coached game. Offense poorly organized. Random, feed to the block. Nothing from Wright (7 points, 6 rebs, 2 assists, T/O 1), Smith (9 points, 2, reb, 0 ASSISTS which is horrific in a 2 guard) Boudreaux (23 points, 14 rebs, t/o 4), Barry (8 points, 0 assists, 1 t/o), Fleming (3 points, 1 assist, 3 rebs)Johnson (8 points, 1 reb, 1 asst, 3 t/o). Beaten by an awful Cornell team. Our inability to play any semblance of defense, our disorganized offense, our unusually high turnovers every game, and head scratching coaching decisions/non-decisions is a recipe for a full season disaster. This isnt rebuilding. This is flailing in place and showing no improvement. c'mo coaches. At least get your team to play defense!
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-28-17 08:57 PM - Post#219750    

We lost 75-62
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-29-17 12:58 AM - Post#219776    

Oh that's not good. Well,I'm hoping Boudreaux doesn't bail on the program. I wouldn't be shocked is he does a Mitola so he can go play somewhere else with his last year of eligibility. Look at how Grant Mullins is faring at a big program. It's got to be tempting. He's good enough to play in the ACC, Big 12, or PAC12.
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-29-17 10:12 AM - Post#219790    

This season and any collateral damage (such as Boudreaux transferring) is the result of the ADs decision last spring

Coach Mac makes mistakes as all coaches do, but the AD is 100% responsible for this one

JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
01-29-17 10:37 AM - Post#219792    

I have not seen Dartmouth enough to judge the validity of your observations regarding your team. I have seen Cornell often enough to reject your characterization of the Big Red as "awful". You may have been correct in November, but Earl has huis kids playing much better now. They had Harvard on the ropes, outplaying them for 37 minutes, and came back from that disappointment 24 hours later. I thought Dartmouth competed pretty well, too, last night. The Saturday game on this back-to-back is particularly hard for the road team.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-29-17 10:51 AM - Post#219794    

Seems like the optimism from our three game win streak is wearing off. Losing to Cornell and seeing Brown best Penn is concerning, as the probability of going winless in league increases.

We've now fallen back below the 300 level on KenPom.com (322/351) for 2017. Last year we ended the season rated 234, and in 2015 we ended the year 168.

KenPom.com now has us at 6.5% chance of going winless in the ivy League. Tripple from just days ago.

For perspective on a win loss record basis our team is now the fifth worst team in all of the NCAAM. Only teams with as few or fewer Ws are Santa Barbara 3-16, Mississippi State 3-18, NC A&T 1-19, and Alabama A&M 1-18
"...no excuses - only results!”

Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
01-29-17 01:53 PM - Post#219806    

Do you think Bordeaux's mother might have a say in transfer any thoughts?
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-29-17 01:59 PM - Post#219807    

I would have no idea. But graduating early and playing a grad year somewhere else isn't inconceivable. It would be a terrible look for the program if it were to happen.
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-29-17 02:16 PM - Post#219811    

Sheehy's hiring record is pretty poor so far. Men's lacrosse last year 1-13, Women's basketball last year 12-18, this year 6-11, Men's basketball this year 3-14. At some point trustees and alumni are going to ask Sheehy "you hired these people, why aren't we winning?". There are many other coaches that he's hired. According to a friend in the athletic department, many top assistant coaches applied for the Dartmouth Men's head coaching job including Mike Schrage from Stanford. When googling him, he worked for not only Johnny Dawkins (Duke standout and Coach K protégé), but also worked for Bobby Knight and Coach K. Apparently he really wanted the job and my contact said he put together a 2 inch thick binder of his game plan for his first year if hired and his schedule for year 1. To the hour! Schrage didn't make the final 5 cut! Billy Taylor, asst coach Iowa and former Ball State head coach (6 years) also very much wanted the job. no dice. Brian Earl (Princeton asst and current Cornell Head coach) was a finalist. He has turned the Cornell program around obviously. Why didn't they receive serious consideration you ask? Peter Roby (Dartmouth 79') is the AD at Northeastern and apparently pushed/convinced Sheehy to hire McLaughlin. New England AD, New England basketball, good ol' boy network. Do things for friends, not the right reasons for the school ,but make it look good and justifiable. My contact said the decision was pretty much made before the final cut interviews were done. So Sheehy is now on the hot seat as his coaching selections better start performing, and soon! Oh and PS, for all you pro-Cormier supporters (both of you :-)), getting rid of Cormier was the right answer for the program. In talking to players over the last several years, I could not find one that would say anything positive about him. I'm told that he was hanging around for the last few years trying to get his kids paying basketball jobs. To the outside world he may have appeared to be an ok coach (though his career record is simply awful), but internally, his tenure was a disaster. Mclaughlin is a MAJOR improvement over Cormier, even though our 3-14 start is terrible...
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-29-17 02:27 PM - Post#219813    

I don't know Evan well other than meeting him and other players on a couple of occasions, but I would say him leaving is a distinct possibility. He can stay through the summers, take an extra class load, and get out in three years a la Mitola. If you were him, wouldn't you leave? Given what I've seen from McLaughlin so far, he doesn't have much to look forward to basketball wise and I would say his/Dartmouth's chances are ZERO of winning the Ivy League tourney and making it to the NCAA Tourney. and that's a shame for a player of his caliber.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-29-17 02:44 PM - Post#219816    

Rough.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-29-17 02:52 PM - Post#219817    

I think like any good mom she wants what's best for her son. But he should stay! They WILL be way better next year. Coach Mac just needed to get his bearings after being inserted into the fire. They will win 15 games next year and make the tourney. And honestly it's not too late to make a power move this year.


hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-29-17 04:51 PM - Post#219821    

Whoa

BOO

Disappointing to see a Dartmouth grad connected to the program filetting basically everyone, including current players and coaches

If you played at Dartmouth why are you singling out the guys?

And you really think you could do a better job than Coach Mac?
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-29-17 05:27 PM - Post#219830    

Thats cool. First, I never said I played at Dartmouth. Second, this is a forum board for opinions. The only time I said I could do something better is in defeating a 1-3-1 zone. Hartford and Columbia both killed us with it, both teams weren't that good at it, and we never set picks at the top of the key or the elbow to allow dribble penetrations and subsequent dishes as the zone collapses on the guy that penetrates. So I blame the coaches and their game planning and the players for their lack of zone breaking execution. I assume that opinion holds some water to people who have playing or coaching (and even observing) experience. I kinda thought my opinions were rather specific and focused, but we can agree to disagree. Would love to hear where specifically it is you think I erred. My coaching record was 63% wins over 3 years (no Coach K here) until I got tired of telling unrealistic parents that their kids weren't good enough to play/make the team when they thought their kid was going to the NBA, the school politics, and the fact that I was poor and not making enough money to raise a family on. Grad school and a focus on business changed that. So if the board consensus is that I shouldn't be honest about what i see and think, and that realistic commentary/opinion is discouraged, and that cheer leading for one's Alma Mater is priority one, I can fade off into the sunset. No big deal. My guess is that if people aren't encouraged to call things as they see them (even when it may hurt people's feelings), then I believe that lack of dialogue encourages the status quo and you can expect more of the same on the court for many years to come. Just one man's opinion, nothing more.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-29-17 06:05 PM - Post#219832    

  • hoopla Said:
Whoa

BOO

Disappointing to see a Dartmouth grad connected to the program filetting basically everyone, including current players and coaches

If you played at Dartmouth why are you singling out the guys?

And you really think you could do a better job than Coach Mac?



You didn't spend much time on the Penn board during the Miller and Allen years, I take it?
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-29-17 06:56 PM - Post#219834    

You should keep posting

I just had a reaction to the comments on individual players and coaches

Maybe a touch of hyperbole and unverifiable rumor alongside the opinion irked me

Probably just my "ears," but the tone of what I was reading seemed akin to that of the parents that partly drove you away from coaching

If I'm ever blessed with children I will try not to be that guy

hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-29-17 07:00 PM - Post#219835    

I prefer your brand of criticism:

"Yay?"

And

the "Don't Buy" clip from Arrested Development
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-29-17 08:12 PM - Post#219842    

Its all good Hoopla! I think that as one gets near the top of the pyramid (whatever your chosen profession or calling may be), the scrutiny and accountability goes up. Mclaughlin (and his assistants and players) and Sheehy (and the other coaches he hired) are all intertwined at a new "Dartmouth/Ivy League" level of accountability. For Mclaughlin, this isn't Stonehill D2 and he's not a Northeastern Asst Coach where the head coach calls the shots. He's the head coach of a D1 program now. He's expected to know the X's and O's of the game (from what I've seen so far, not sure that he does), expected to hire smart and talented assistants, and expected to recruit athletes that will win Ivy League Basketball Championships for Dartmouth. As an aside, the excuses of how hard it is to recruit to Dartmouth is BS and an excuse for losing (Buddy does a damn good job of getting kids from warm weather environments to come to the Great White North (no political incorrectness intended)). Win championships and people will come here. Back on message: While technically Mclaughlin reports to Sheehy, he very much indirectly reports to all alumni who bother to care and support not only Dartmouth Athletics, but basketball specifically (I do). I believe there is an accountability to fans/supporters for the product that is placed on the floor to compete against other schools we play. And, if Mclaughlin puts an inferior product on the floor, that product has his signature on it. It's his and he owns it. Even if he didn't recruit any/all the kids. Just like the Parcells video put up earlier (I loved it!). None of us could take a job where the predecessor did a poor job and tell the boss after the first year "My results would have been better if my predecessor had hired better employees." Might work in the first month or two, but to any boss worth his salt, that excuse would get old very quickly. So I, like many of you, kept my mouth shut until we were 3-12. And then, when we kept seeing Mclaughlin's product go on the floor game after game and play the same poor defenses, run the same poor offenses, make the same poor turnovers,I started questioning (as a caring,athletics supporting alumnus)why individuals were doing the same things over and over (don't they break down film??), why the coaching staff seems unable to make in-game adjustments that change the bad stuff to good stuff, why individual players basketball IQ seems so low that they can't make personal adjustments to help the team win (example: Guilien/Miles not passing to open teammates with maddening regularity..again, don't they watch film? Isn't the coaching staff teaching and developing them to change their behaviors? Try benching Smith/Wright next time they drive to the basket and miss an open teammate. Take them out every time they do it. I guarantee they get religion quickly. Bench time equals more passes which equals more playing time). Excuses aside, Mclaughlin owns this product and right now, he's managing one of the worst products in all of college basketball. And Sheehy manages him. All Mclaughlins fault? No, the players have to make plays. The coaches don't play the game. But the fact they we are not seeing any discernible improvement game to game and players are doing many of the same poor things that cumulatively keep losing games for us, the product put on the floor is owned by Mclaughlin. Period. So I believe he should be held to SOME standard and SOME level of expectation from fans. Hes at the top of the pyramid. He's accountable. To the players. His staff. To Dartmouth. And to us. And believe me, if he makes changes that change our direction and we start winning games and at least showing consistent improvement, I will be at the top of the tallest mountain cheering Mclaughlin and the team on publicly and privately. But for now, I sit so far down in the valley I can't even see the mountain I'm supposed to stand on. Let's hope this changes soon.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-30-17 12:23 AM - Post#219869    

I hope that the incoming recruits don't bail. I don't think there is any letter of intent in the Ivy so there is nothing preventing a recruit from "decommitting". That would further put us in the hole as would any kids leaving the program like Eli Harrison or Stones did in previous years.
"...no excuses - only results!”

mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
01-30-17 09:43 AM - Post#219876    

I think Dartmouth has a nice class coming in. No locks like an Evan Boudreaux, but no filler either. Kids that all could be contributors at the D1 level during their time in Hanover.

I've been confused about the firing of Cormier since I heard the rumblings about a year ago now, but I'd give McLaughlin some time. Let's see where this team can go with another pretty solid class.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-30-17 10:36 AM - Post#219882    

  • hoops123 Said:
First, I never said I played at Dartmouth.



If you weren't a player, then you aren't the guy I'm thinking of. A former Dartmouth captain (and a great player) did some high school coaching before giving it up and getting into another profession that paid better than HS coaching.

That being said, we probably did know each other in Hanover.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-30-17 10:38 AM - Post#219883    

  • hoopla Said:
I prefer your brand of criticism:

"Yay?"

And

the "Don't Buy" clip from Arrested Development



Glad you like!

But if calling guys out makes them play better, I'm all for it. Up to the coach to figure out which buttons to push...
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-30-17 11:10 AM - Post#219885    

  • GoBigGreenBasketball Said:
That would further put us in the hole as would any kids leaving the program like Eli Harrison or Stones did in previous years.



Your mileage may vary, but I don't think the departures of Harrison or Stones were huge losses for us.

Alex Mitola, on the other hand, is another story.
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
01-30-17 12:03 PM - Post#219894    

A lot to unpack here.

I'd say first- its pretty reasonable to be honest/harsh in the assessment of the season so far. Generally, this has been an unmitigated disaster and a lot of the blame falls on the coaching staff. IMO the players have also sucked pretty bad.

I think the temperament of the boards comes down to higher expectations for this season- and the idea that we are squandering the potential of a core that we might not see for some time. Boudreaux is on track to be one of the better players in Dartmouth history (if he stays) and we arent doing anything to capitalize on his talent. In that same sense, we are so bad that I've heard the transfer rumors (both above, and elsewhere). I doubt the veracity of these claims- but if he transferred it wouldnt shock me. We suck without much of a roadmap forward. Miles, another piece of this core, is athletic and has potential, but its junior year now and we are still waiting. The crazy inconsistency cant happen as an upperclassmen.

There isn't some miracle cure on the horizon, but I do believe that it starts with playing the youth and building that core around Boudreaux. If the poor (and arguable selfish) play of some guys continue you have to send a message and put them on the bench.

I'd like to eat my words at the end of this season. Lets hope the program gives me reason to.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
01-30-17 03:29 PM - Post#219909    

An outsider speculation is that Cormier was unpleasant but created disciplined play. He was removed in order to get a more positive, player-friendly approach, and the players who used to complain now feel free to play selfishly. That in turn may infect/affect the younger players.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-30-17 05:15 PM - Post#219924    

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:

I'd say first- its pretty reasonable to be honest/harsh in the assessment of the season so far. Generally, this has been an unmitigated disaster and a lot of the blame falls on the coaching staff. IMO the players have also sucked pretty bad.




Could you elaborate, providing deeper insight? What are the coaches not doing that they should be doing and what's going on with our guys, why aren't they performing?
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-30-17 06:09 PM - Post#219931    

As someone put it, Cormier is not one to lead Kumbaya.

A driven perfectionist and grinder. Tight grip and old school. At times it didn't look fun for him or anyone. A grind, especially because it was such a steep mountain they were climbing. But he can coach, and while not a player favorite for most (probably because he was painfully honest and had specific roles for most of his guys that most of them found too limiting), he is highly regarded by coaching peers for his coaching. "The sum is greater than the parts" he said, and most of these "parts" (and their parents) didn't like this and wondered why they were being developed to fit into a specific role for a cohesive team/plan instead of into the next Kobe Bryant. He will be on a bench next year ala Glenn Miller after he finishes collecting from Dartmouth what I expect is a nice salary for this year's sabbatical.

I heard another former coach at Dartmouth say that he was a thorn in Sheehy's side by advocating mercilessly aka complaining and not drinking the Sheehy koolaid. Paul just couldn't stomach the politics and felt Sheehy was pure politics and a poser. Too bad he couldn't get over it. As a result their egos clashed, and this collision was probably exacerbated by the fact that Sheehy was a hoops coach and probably thought he knew as much as Cormier who spent 18 years as a D1 coach and 12 years in the NBA compared to Sheehy doing 20 years Williams or whatever.

Ultimately a bad, risky, unnecessary call by Sheehy IMO, but both egos are at fault.

Outside the basketball arena, I have seen both Sheehy and Paul captivate an audience and demonstrate humor and ability to connect and build relationships. Both are good people from what I've seen and down to earth conversationalists. But Neither seem like joys to be around when they are anywhere near the frontlines of competition.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-30-17 06:24 PM - Post#219933    

Between the politics of hiring McLaughlin and the firing of Cormier it's starting to form a clearer picture why we're 3-14. If the program isn't about the players and winning you get bottom of the NCAAM performance. You fire a guy who's a thorn in your side who got you to a post season only to hire somebody without D1 HC experience. That's disheartening.
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-30-17 06:43 PM - Post#219941    


I've heard from insiders about the Cormier firing. Trust me when I tell you the best thing Sheehy has done in his short Dartmouth tenure was replacing Cormier. It was the best thing for Dartmouth College and for current and future players. His career record is 228–322 (.415). We could do better, and I'm hopeful we did.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-30-17 08:02 PM - Post#219958    

Cormier or McLaughlin doesn't matter we need some wins. Who can get us those? Right now were 3-14 (.214). Half as good as we were

.5 x (below average) = atrocious
"...no excuses - only results!”

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
01-30-17 08:11 PM - Post#219961    

I'm afraid you need to put that in perspective by comparing it to Dartmouth's record when Cormier is not the coach. You can always theoretically do better, of course, but I think he is quite clearly the best coach in relevant school history.

The simple fact that a lot of other Ivy schools' fans were confused (and maybe a little relieved) when you fired him should tell you something.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-30-17 08:12 PM - Post#219962    

Regarding Cormier: Perplexed and disturbed by the firing of Cormier--like many others--I looked at his record. Looked at the Kenpom stats, and saw the steady growth in key stats, in recruiting, and in rankings at Dartmouth. At a time when the Ivy was rising, he kept pace and then some. Look at where he started and where he ended, both in rankings and in wins.

Cormier is the most successful coach over the last 60 years at Dartmouth. His record, I found, is the result of inheriting nothing but rebuilding projects at each of his stints.

I have heard from insiders, too, both at Dartmouth and in the coaching world. Including prominent alumni who played for him. Essentially, the opposite of what you are spreading about him H123. So I guess we roll in different circles.

Regarding McClaughlin, the rumors of his hire... Doubtful. He is having a tough start but he is young and deserves the time and space. He has it in him, and I'm confident he'll rise to the challenge.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
01-30-17 08:14 PM - Post#219963    

Agreed!
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
01-30-17 08:18 PM - Post#219965    

Following up on the Kobe Bryant comment, I do think that at least some of the Cormier situation reflects poorly on the players. Yes, a good coach is able to achieve buy in from players and families, and yes, there are obviously situations where a coach's behavior is unacceptable and should not be bought into. However, in most cases, I think the best thing for achieving success is to buy in regardless of what you think your role should be, etc. In some way, it's actually more important than the xs and os. A lot of different approaches work -- what you need is everyone pulling in the same direction. Even if the coach is a jerk, you still need to pull. I'm not sure that has been the case at Dartmouth.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-30-17 08:20 PM - Post#219966    

  • hoops123 Said:
More turnovers than a bakery.



3 T/O, one for a bucket on the other end and the other two resulted in fouls. We started the season out this way.
"...no excuses - only results!”

GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-30-17 09:05 PM - Post#219974    

There are a lot of good things that go into coaching. One of the things I like in a coach is honesty or frankness. I like it when a coach owns his shortcomings to many times its some external factor. What do they say, "A fish rots from the head down" at 0-9 or 3-14 you'd like to hear how we are going to get better from the top down (AD and/or HC). You can't win this game without character.

We lag in a lot of key areas that are unarguably coaching calls. We are last (#351) in NCAAM in FGA and FG, last in 2P and 347 in 2PA...which would be good if we weren't #323 in 3P, #316 in 3PA, and #299 in 3P%. We're lauded for our FT percentage we're #81 with (.730) FT% but we're #310 in FT and #330 in FTA. As great as Boudreaux is in rebounding were #333 in OBR and #345 in DRB... Let me do this.


FG 351st, FGA 351st, FG% 318th, 2P 351st, 2PA 347th, 2P% 288th, 3P 323rd, 3PA 316th, 3P% 299th, FT 310th, FTA 330th, FT% 81st, ORB 333rd, DRB 345th, TRB 347th, AST 351st, STL 347th, BLK 350th, TOV 72nd, PF 346th, PTS 350th, PTS/G 327th


We are not defensive grind it out team nor are we a high power offensive team. We have no distinction in anything we do. That's not a player issue that a style program issue. So you can get buy-in, which from the body language it looks like we have, but if you're executing a flawed strategy to perfection you're still going to get losing results.


"...no excuses - only results!”

SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
01-30-17 09:19 PM - Post#219977    

I dont have a ton of additional insight to add. The coaching staff seems and acts inexperienced. The players seem to have bought in, but the upperclassmen seem to be pretty indifferent.

This indifference isn't new. I saw it a lot when Cormier was here and I think it was one of the factors in his dismissal. You need players who care about the program. The upperclassmen now just want to graduate.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
01-30-17 10:13 PM - Post#219987    

The stats don't really prove the point to me. They just show that Dartmouth isn't doing much of anything well. They don't show precisely why. We do know that they were playing significantly better under Cormier, and I think it is safe to say that, while Boehm was a very good player, he isn't the difference between where they were last year and where they are now. To me, it looks like there is more free lancing and less developed roles than before, but that's something I can't be sure of without being in the huddle. I'm guessing that the coaches don't want the lack of team play, and that's why I question the concept of buy in. It may not be a coincidence that Boudreaux was less of a focal point in the little win streak.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-31-17 12:32 AM - Post#219998    

  • SomeDartmouthStudent Said:
I dont have a ton of additional insight to add. The coaching staff seems and acts inexperienced. The players seem to have bought in, but the upperclassmen seem to be pretty indifferent.

This indifference isn't new. I saw it a lot when Cormier was here and I think it was one of the factors in his dismissal. You need players who care about the program. The upperclassmen now just want to graduate.




If that is true then why are we giving them minutes? We're wasting development playing time that could be given to the underclassman. If you're trying to change the culture then you best phase out those who are indifferent.
"...no excuses - only results!”

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-31-17 02:33 AM - Post#220001    

Hoopla:(My comments) and yours: Regarding Cormier: Perplexed and disturbed by the firing of Cormier like many others (the people on the inside were neither perplexed nor disturbed. Only people that don't know the real reasons he was let go were)I looked at his record. Looked at the Kenpom stats, and saw the steady growth in key stats, in recruiting, and in rankings at Dartmouth. At a time when the Ivy was rising, he kept pace (pretty mediocre standard here)and then some(not so much). Look at where he started and where he ended (huh? see stats below), both in rankings and in wins. (So your measuring stick for his success is the closed universe of Dartmouth Basketball including his finishing at the bottom half of the Ivy League in all but one year (we were 4th)in his most recent stint? We should keep a coach with an awful career coaching record just because he had a couple of decent seasons at Dartmouth over a 13 year career? (First stint: a stellar 47-51 record or .48 winning percentage) (Second and most recent stint: 23-61 for a magical.274 winning percentage. Total Dartmouth winning percentage?? .384. If you "roll" as a head coach with a .384 record at any D1 college program, you get "rolled" out of your job) Oh, and he was 40-64 or .385 winning percentage in between Dartmouth stints at Fairfield. Improving Hoopla?? Where? I don't see any logic here at all. 3 schools, 3 losing records. Sheehy fired (wrong move in my opinion, by the way) Dartmouth Women's Basketball coach Chris Weilgus , who had 12 Ivy League championships, one Patriot League title and seven NCAA Tournament appearances in 28 years! She was a winner! Her overall record: 393-342 Ivy: 227-122. And she got fired! Cormier at Dartmouth: One CIT appearance in 13 years! Did he win the Ivy League even once? Nope. Were there/are there better options out there to lead a Dartmouth team than him? Yep. Lots of them. Hopefully we have one in Mclaughlin. And if you really had inside information, we wouldn't even be having this "discussion".)

Cormier is the most successful coach over the last 60 years at Dartmouth.(In some ways Hoopla, that's like being the biggest kid in kindergarten. It actually means nothing. They won't be erecting any statues of Cormier at Dartmouth. With your line of thinking, if you had 10 coaches during that time and the best one had a 3 win season, we should keep him because he won more than the others?? What if a big time D1 coach that made it to a few final 4's decided to end his career coaching at Dartmouth. We should keep Cormier instead because he was "the most successful" we've had at Dartmouth in 60 years??? That's absurd.) His record, I found, is the result of inheriting nothing but rebuilding projects at each of his stints.(Sounds like excuses for not winning to me. If that's the case, why weren't his recent teams more successful? Remember, he "inherited" his own recruits. And many of his own recruits left under his tutelage. Why? Coincidence? Bad luck? Ask some players why Mitola left. I have. He had to have planned to leave years before he left. If Cormier was such a great coach, why would Mitola risk leaving a starting position and guaranteed playing time as one of the Ivy League's top players for a coming off the bench role at GW? Oh and PS, he never bothered to tell Cormier in advance of his decision. And Cormier himself said he was shocked and surprised by his leaving and that he had no idea he planned to leave. That was in the Valley News. Hmmm. Guessing they weren't exchanging Christmas cards. Ask people in your circles why so many players left his teams? Curious what you discover!)

I have heard from insiders, too, both at Dartmouth and in the coaching world. Including prominent alumni who played for him. Essentially, the opposite of what you are spreading about him H123. So I guess we roll in different circles.(So Hoopla has just accused me of "spreading" essentially "opposite" of what he believes are truths because he believes his "circles" are closer to the truth than mine. Hmmmm. I'm not spreading anything. My opinions are mine and mine alone. This is a chat board for Dartmouth basketball. I support my opinions with opinions of credible people I know that are in the know who I speak to and believe. Readers of this "debate" can make up their own minds. And Hoopla, as you've hopefully noticed, I completely disagree with you on Cormier)

Regarding McClaughlin, the rumors of his hire... Doubtful. (You are welcome to doubt me. Given your positions on some of the things I've said, no surprise there.)He is having a tough start but he is young and deserves the time and space. He has it in him, and I'm confident he'll rise to the challenge.(Hopefully, for the sake of the program. And I hope Mclaughlin is wildly successful. But I'll always take your comments with many grains of salt Hoopla. You've already told us that you thought we should have kept a losing coach with an awful record cause he was "the most successful" Dartmouth ever had. Certainly depends on how one defines "successful". 228–322 (.415)career record. I don't call that "successful". But since you defend Cormier and are clearly against his firing, I'll take that standard into account in our future discussions. Go Big Green!

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
01-31-17 07:47 AM - Post#220005    

In terms of Cormier's record, with the steady improvement, I don't think you know where it would/could lead. When you fire him before you find out, you risk going backwards, which is exactly what seems to have happened. The attitude you display (not liking Cormier and saying he needed to be fired, and then ripping on McLaughlin's coaching decisions) is a good way to end up being the Cleveland Browns, quickly firing coach after coach without ever committing to a plan and giving anyone a chance to actually succeed. You say you are an insid, and that is exactly what makes me nervous about the state of the program -- it seems like a situation where everyone is pulling in different directions. History shows that it is very difficult to win at Dartmouth, and it is getting harder, not easier, as 4 Ivy schools are now pulling in top 200 type recruits with some regularity (and a 5th, Columbia, has one coming next year). Dartmouth has an uphill climb to be competitive, and finger pointing isn't going to get it done.
ahg46
Freshman
Posts 11
01-31-17 10:38 AM - Post#220006    

Cormier was a good game coach in the IVY league.
This isn't the Big 12, his competition was not all that stiff. He recruited quite well, considering the other school's in the IVY league have better facilities, stronger support from their Alumni, a higher profile and certainly a better geographical location as far as travel to and fro goes. Barring Cornell of course. where Cormier fell short was in his development of his player's, not in his x's and o's game plan. Dartmouth was destined to stay in the middle of the pack with Cormier at the helm.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-31-17 10:40 AM - Post#220007    

  • hoops123 Said:
If Cormier was such a great coach, why would Mitola risk leaving a starting position and guaranteed playing time as one of the Ivy League's top players for a coming off the bench role at GW? Oh and PS, he never bothered to tell Cormier in advance of his decision. And Cormier himself said he was shocked and surprised by his leaving and that he had no idea he planned to leave. That was in the Valley News. Hmmm. Guessing they weren't exchanging Christmas cards.



Except that Mitola left Dartmouth to join a coach who was, you know.... ACTUALLY fired for misconduct and abuse.

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 16/09/16/mi...

Whatever Mitola's reasons for leaving, it probably wasn't because he found Cormier unbearable. Compared to Lonergan, Cormier was probably running the Good Ship Lollipop in Hanover.

GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-31-17 02:22 PM - Post#220013    

Cormier's gone and isn't coming back. McLaughlin is the coach. What matters is the present and the future. That being the case,h ow do you judge our current situation? (open question, not rhetorical). We are 3-14 with graduating seniors and a guaranteed sub .500 season with an ever increasing probability of going winless in league. Right now being mediocre would be an improvement.

We need to raise our standards and our expectations. Consider Josh Pastner over at Georgia Tech in the ACC. He's a new coach to the program and was expected by AD not to win a game in league this year. He is currently 13-8 & 5-4 in the ACC! I'm just saying you can win with a new coach and low expectations even in the toughest league in the NCAAM. Why settle or make excuses? Our school deserves a shot to compete and the Alumni need to expect better from the top to the bottom.

So I ask what is acceptable? Who's going to stand up and own this? What is the course of action and how long is the runway???

"...no excuses - only results!”

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-31-17 05:21 PM - Post#220017    

Exactly GBGB. Couldn't agree more. I have pursued the Cormier thread because there are a few people that DON'T support Mcglaughlin's hiring and long for Cormier and the good old days(??). They keep bringing up Cormier and the "mistake" that was made in firing him. One poster just said we don't know how it would have played out if we'd waited. Oh, I don't know, but maybe 13 years of Dartmouth Basketball losing and a terrible W/L record would sway most people's opinions. Waiting and hoping that things will change after years of evidence piles up showing statistically that it probably won't is a program death sentence. SO, I'm ready to move on and discuss the here and now (which I was doing until the "we shouldn't have fired Cormier" crowd started using that as an excuse for losing). Mclaughlin has his work cut out for him. So far, after a 3-14 record doing pretty much the same poor things for 17 straight games (yes, even in the games we won), I am not optimistic. As someone on the board rightly said, its not like our pipeline is filled with top rated players. So whats going to change? No idea. The only consistent thing we can bank on is Boudreaux pounding the boards and scoring 16 or so a game night in and night out. Did it all last year and doing it again this year, even double/triple teamed.Let's hope he stays healthy and happy and sticks around. Beyond that and some fairly consistent good play from Barry (why isn't he starting over Fleming??), it's a crap-shoot every night. We never know which player(s) will show up and which won't. But until we start playing team defense aggressively (don't know if we even have the athletes to do this) and consistently, we won't be competitive (read that as top 4. See, even my expectations have been lowered!)in the Ivy League. And we'll have many, many long, frustrating nights ahead of us until Mclaughlin fixes this. That is, if he even can. Fingers crossed. Go Big Green!
Corms
Freshman
Posts 6
01-31-17 06:45 PM - Post#220018    

I believe my dad is a good coach, otherwise he wouldn't have survived so long and made an entire livelihood from the game in college and the pros. More importantly, my dad is a good man. I've seen him act in ways that have made me wince. I thought he yelled too much and I hated watching him get T's, which happened more when he was younger. My dad was strict with us kids and his players and there was a lot of tough love. He was hard to be around at times, stubborn, etc. but also the center of gravity. As adults my bros and I all look back with appreciation at my dad's approach and I think this is true with a lot of his former players as more time passes.

My dad has strengths and weaknesses, friends and folks who can't stand him. Some unfairly so and some due to his own mistakes I am sure. one thing for sure is that he loves Dartmouth, loves coaching, and loves competition. he iremains close with a number of players and coaches and all of us in the Cormier family have been positively impacted by his relationships and career. Especially Dave Faucher and the Faucher family, Rollie Massimino (his mentor), Pete Guillen, Jim Calhoun, and all of his assistants over the years.

I remember telling my dad when I was very young about people seated behind me screaming that he should be fired in his first year at Fairfield.

Coaching is a tough profession for coaches and their families, so I hope everyone will be patient with Dave. He has a beautiful family. He is a good man and knows basketball. I know this because I played against his college coach! he has a different system and philosophy, and it doesn't matter how good the team is it takes time. Dartmouth is a family and he and his family are now a part of the Big Green family!

I'm probably signing off for good, but just felt a need to weigh in on all the conversation about my dad. Yes, thanks for those who had kind words about my dad, but time to move on and get behind the new coaching staff!

Best to all!
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
01-31-17 07:11 PM - Post#220021    

Corms: Classy, very well written response. On a personal level, I wish you and your dad nothing but the best in the future and agree that we should get behind Mclaughlin. I urge you to stay on. Would love to hear your experienced opinions on how this team can get better. All the best!
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
01-31-17 08:35 PM - Post#220023    

I know your dad to be a honest and frank guy. Very stand-up coach.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
"...no excuses - only results!”

GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
02-03-17 03:14 PM - Post#220267    

Know that he was respected and appreciated:

Basketball: Winning feels much better - JOSEPH ASCH '79

More praise for Dartmouth coaches
"...no excuses - only results!”

Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-03-17 07:16 PM - Post#220295    

  • ahg46 Said:
Dartmouth was destined to stay in the middle of the pack with Cormier at the helm.



This theory has been repeatedly touted in some form or another as justifying Cormier's dismissal.

If its true... then how much more time does Koclanes get? While the women's program is in better shape than when she took over, it has shown no indication that it's going to be competing for championships anytime soon with Koclanes.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-04-17 10:17 AM - Post#220371    

  • Go Green Said:


If its true... then how much more time does Koclanes get? While the women's program is in better shape than when she took over, it has shown no indication that it's going to be competing for championships anytime soon with Koclanes.



Women lose by 30 to Princeton...
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-05-17 08:53 AM - Post#220562    

  • Go Green Said:


Women lose by 30 to Princeton...



Women lose by 30 to Penn...

Losing by a combined 60 on a league weekend may or may not be a record. But it's pretty darn bad.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-05-17 11:02 AM - Post#220577    

Hopefully the women and men for that matter can make a power move.

Great win for the Men last night! Not only does that win keep us alive for the top 4, but it hurts the chances of one of our primary #4 spot contenders.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
02-05-17 11:49 AM - Post#220588    

The tournament gets a bad wrap from some, but it somehow manages to keep everyone talking about ivy basketball... especially when your team would have had no shot if they were 1-5 in league under the 14 game tournament.
"...no excuses - only results!”




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