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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-12-17 11:32 AM - Post#221495
There was a disturbing similarity to the second halves of both games this weekend. We couldn't close out either game after gaining leads that appeared sufficient. Columbia nearly overtook us from a 20 point deficit, and Cornell turned a 10 point halftime deficit into a five point lead with a 19-4 run at the beginning of the second half. They stayed within striking distance for the rest of the game. Cook and Stephens seemed to be off their reliable comeback form, Bell tried to do too much himself, and Cannady has gone on sabbatical. True, it was an exhausting 5 games in 9 days. But, we'll have to get things back together for the rest of the season. Six, if you include two games in the Palestra, of our remaining eight games are on the road. Get plenty of rest, Guys! |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274 
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02-12-17 11:59 AM - Post#221502
One wonders if moving Cannady to point has impacted his shooting game negatively. He has gone from catch and shoot to look for the pass, then maybe shoot. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411 
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02-12-17 12:34 PM - Post#221507
Positives for the Tigers have been defense, ball security and experience, which have been enough to produce wins, although many have featured the depletion of large leads. It is the offense that has been spotty, with many comfortable first halves when we are hitting treys followed by a sputtering final 30 minutes. When outside shots have not been falling Princeton begins attacking the rim, and Bell and Cook and especially Stephens have produced enough interior points to avoid Falconian collapses so far. But it ain't pretty to watch and lacks the firepower of last year's fluid offense. I agree that Cannady previously was a reliable antidote to cold spells and lately he has not been as deadly. Perhaps due to his new point guard duties, perhaps because he is now featured in the Tigers' scout and perhaps because Caruso's presence opened up spaces for him on the court that are no longer available. In Ivy play Cook has also not been as big a 3-point threat (just 3-17 until going 5-7 last night). This year the #1 seed, assuming it wins vs. #4, will have a big advantage because the other finalist will need to beat H-P, Y-P or H-Y within 24 hours on a neutral court, which won't be easy. So the last six games of the regular season will all be high stakes affairs. To win the title the Tigers will need to sustain all of their positives and raise their level of consistency when they have the ball. |
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Petrie Freshman Posts 42 |
02-12-17 03:17 PM - Post#221548
Given Amir Bell's return to form ( thank god) and Canady's decreased production, wonder if it might be time to revert to original roles, with Canady coming off the bench. Meanwhile, there must be something that can be done to get production out of the center position. Personally, I think Miller deserves more time . Just hard to see continued success while getting so little from the position. Have to love 11 straight, but doesnt mean we can't worry. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-12-17 04:24 PM - Post#221576
Big picture -- they are 8-0 and the Tigers have enjoyed the lead after the first 10 minutes of the remaining game for greater than 90% of the time. Only two blow outs but 10+ point leads in 5 other games with less than 10 minutes to go. If Tiger fans would be asked at the beginning of the Ivy season if they would be ecstatic at 8-0, the answer is easy. The reality is that there have been some tight moments, like any IL season, but somehow the veteran team has kept their composure and had the will to win unlike their non-conference game performance. Even with a 2 game lead, nothing will come easy for the rest of the way with 4 games on the road -- far more challenging than the 1st 8 games. It is possible that they will finish 3-3 if they do not keep their focus. Yale is obviously a huge game next week if Weisz/Cook and others want to see a banner hanging at Jadwin after they graduate. As Cook stated last night, do not focus on the IL tournament just focus on the next game. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274
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02-12-17 04:27 PM - Post#221578
I liked what Gladson did this last game--I remember one short baseline jumper, very impromptu with the clock winding down. Nothing but net. Aririgozuh also looked good on defense & rebounding. He had no room in the low post on offense though. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-12-17 05:26 PM - Post#221592
If the team didn't have so many other options, developing offense from the bigs would probably have been more of a focus to date. Personally, I like getting them involved offensively because it makes the passing game more fluid when there is a post threat. Witness Miller's two touch-pass backdoor assists last night against Columbia. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1888 |
02-12-17 05:58 PM - Post#221593
The team just came through a hell of a 5 game stretch with 5 big wins, 3 away from home. Yes it is tough to watch them lose big leads but they are a gritty, determined bunch and I like their chances to win the league and the tournament. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-12-17 08:59 PM - Post#221617
Very tough 5 game stretch as you point out with another tough 4 game road stretch coming up. I do like their chances to win the IL regular season especially if they win at New Haven but it is certainly not a slam dunk even with a two game lead. As to the IL tournament, who knows? Much more random possibilities simply based on playing two games in two days. As we know, anything can happen when shots rim out or rim in. If they rim out, the seniors can head out to the NIT and hopefully, cause some havoc. If they rim in, they can go off a play a #3 or #4 seed at the Big Dance. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-12-17 09:49 PM - Post#221627
Very tough to beat a team 3 times, as Penn found out in '96. Would be beyond awesome to see Penn come out of nowhere and knock off Princeton at the Palestra. But a lot of work to be done before Penn can get to that point. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-12-17 09:49 PM - Post#221628
This team is fun to watch with lots of guys to root for who can make impressive plays. When they D up consistently they are really tough to beat. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-12-17 10:04 PM - Post#221631
Tough talk for a team with a 2-6 record 
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-12-17 10:13 PM - Post#221633
I believe that he was one of the guys that jumped ship on the Quakers a few days ago -- typical neurotic Philadelphia fan. He may be getting a little ahead of himself regarding the IL Tournament but he will be jumping ship again if Penn somehow loses to Brown and Yale next weekend. Pretty funny post. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1888 |
02-12-17 11:31 PM - Post#221643
Watching the Penn fans' reactions to their team's ups and downs is almost as much fun as following the Tigers. Glad to see the Quackers apparently playing better ball after we bested them twice--maybe they can give Y and H a run. |
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sparman PhD Student Posts 1346 
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02-13-17 09:16 AM - Post#221655
In fairness I was a little surprised to see that Penn is only 2 games out of the tournament at the moment despite their poor start. It's not like Columbia never stumbles and stranger things have happened. In the meantime, let's hope there is no Xanax shortage in Philadelphia. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32812 |
02-13-17 09:38 AM - Post#221658
The odds still are slim. Penn has to win at least 4 of its remaining 6 with 4 on the road, including wins over Brown (at home) and Columbia on the road to have a chance. 5 wins with victories over those two almost certainly will get Penn in. Gotta take it a game at a time, but this weekend, Penn was a different team with a different rotation. Whether or not they get in this year, the fact that Penn starts 3 freshmen and 1 soph is promising. This is Donahue's first true recruiting class, so the foundation may be being put into place. I think a lot of Penn fans wonder why it took so long to get to this set lineup. |
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sparman PhD Student Posts 1346
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02-13-17 11:04 AM - Post#221679
While I respect the math involved, I've never paid much attention to calaculated probabilities and emotion, momentum, improvement can't be quantified. Channelling my inner Yogi, you aren't out of it until you're mathematically eliminated. |
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JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
02-13-17 11:29 AM - Post#221692
Princeton can lose 2 games and still grab the #1 seed, especially if one of their wins is Harvard at home. But looking at the schedule suggests that 3 losses is quite possible. Remember a few years ago when the Tigers needed three wins to win the league outright and two to get a tie? Road losses at Yale and Brown killed that dream. Shell-shocked,the team voted not to play in a post season tourney. This week's foes: Yale and Brown on the road. Fasten your seat belts, fans. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-13-17 05:58 PM - Post#221742
Was one of the crazier finishes to a season I've ever witnessed. Harvard dumped both games on a trip to the Ps to go from one up to one down and then Princeton dumped both at Brown/Yale to go from one up to losing the title. Princeton goes at least 4-2 down the stretch over 80% of the time, so I really think the only way you lose the one seed is if you specifically lose to Harvard and Yale. Otherwise, you will win every tiebreaker at 12-2. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-13-17 10:18 PM - Post#221770
Had time to kill and was able to look at a replay of the first game with Yale at Jadwin. In addition, it was interesting to watch the Harvard-Yale for comparison. One conclusion was that Yale could certainly use the one-on-one skills of Makai Mason in addition to Copeland and Oyne. What Mason did against Baylor last year was amazing and they really miss him offensively this year. In the first game, Dallier did not play but the end result was the Tigers got 38 minutes of Copeland. Oyne got in early 1st half foul trouble which definitely hurt Yale. Other than Copeland, Bruner was the only other scorer that night and Stephens was the only guy who could guard Copeland well. 24-22 half time score with the Tigers 1 out of 15 on 3 pointers with many wide open looks after shooting lights out against Brown. Coach Jones commented that Yale was fortunate to dodge the bullet in the 1st half at halftime. Stephens, Cook and Bell drove past their defenders often which opened up the offense. Other than Oyne and Burner, Yale does not appear to have quick defenders. I would not be surprised if Henderson uses the 2nd half strategy on Friday night and kick the ball out to Weisz and Cannady if the Yale defenders collapse around the basket to fend off Stephens and crew. Yale will play desperate and defend hard but will they be quick enough??? |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-14-17 02:38 PM - Post#221812
Phillis is an excellent defender, tough and pretty quick. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-16-17 12:58 PM - Post#222022
That's true about Phills although Chambers and Aikens scored 43 points on the Yale guards at New Haven although Copeland was able to easily drive by Harvard guards, particularly Chambers, and score. Yale has six players who average between 9-12 points per game with pretty high shooting percentages as they move the ball around for easier shots. They also rebound very well particularly on the offensive boards. It helps if they can shutdown Downey as they did in the first game as it takes away an option. Downey got his limited points against Gladson not Miller or Brennan. I have a feeling that Arirguzoh is going to get more playing time based on Henderson's post-game Columbia comments. Downey did have a double/double last Saturday night in their loss to Harvard. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-16-17 03:06 PM - Post#222032
Next up: The elephant lineup with one perimeter guy and the four bigs. Miller and Aririguzoh in the double low post, Gladson at the high post, Brennan the stretch four. Watch opposing coach's head explode before switching out of it after a few possessions. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-16-17 06:21 PM - Post#222037
"Bring it on" would be Amaker's gleeful response |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-16-17 10:05 PM - Post#222048
I like the concept but really go wild by having Miller put up a couple 3 pointers and plant two big guys near the rim so that they can tip in shots as Miller will never touch the rim -- surprise element. The irony of the Tigers' Ivy League season is that none of the big guys other than Boudreaux and Fuller have been offensively productive against the collection of Tiger centers. If the opposing Center has primarily an inside game -- Brodeur, Downey, Lewis/Edosomwan,etc, the collection of Princeton centers have given up limited points due to their length and strength. On top of that, the 4 of them have held their own on rebounding. Somewhat surprising -- may change. Tigers are 1 1/2 pt favorites -- will be challenging game with desperate team in a tough environment. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 04:19 AM - Post#222055
Yeah, looks like a tough one. The Tigers will need to D up again as they did in the first game or else hit a high percentage of treys. And they need to keep the turnover plus rebounding number in their favor--don't want the Elis to take more FGA (plus FTA) than they do. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-17-17 03:17 PM - Post#222108
Yale had its 22 game home win streak broken by Harvard. They have been incredibly good at home over the past 5 years and Princeton has done poorly against them on the road. I believe that it is Alumni weekend so the seats should be filled. It would be a good time to break the losing streak at Yale to put it mildly. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 08:59 PM - Post#222118
Is it just me or is the lighting in the Yale gym kind of weird? It seems dark and the players have distinct shadows on the floor coming from some lighting source on one side. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 09:13 PM - Post#222122
Pretty good defense in the first five minutes. Several missed wide-open treys keep the lead down to only 6-5. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 09:21 PM - Post#222128
Up 5 with 11:23 left in the first half. Finally hit a couple of treys. Copeland making those high-degree of difficulty shots again, but the defense for Princeton has been quite good, getting hands on the ball and not getting penetrated on much at all. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 09:37 PM - Post#222147
Up 30-22 with 3:37 left in the first half. Cannady on fire, Weisz moving the ball well except for a couple of bad passes, Stephens cooled off a bit but still playing well. Cook's dunk attempt blocked by Oni but he gets hammered with the body and gets two foul shots for his trouble. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 09:48 PM - Post#222158
Up 38-29 at the half, Cannady with 20 points with only one miss and no FTs. Yale had, by my count, 13 second-chance points which is about seven too many IMO. On the plus side, Yale also had numerous lucky recoveries of deflected balls that just went right toward their guys (not outhustling the Tigers to the loose balls). PU had two of those moved-your-pivot-foot-bef ore-starting-your-move traveling calls against them. Might want to work on that some--Cook got nailed a bunch of times last weekend and it happened again tonight. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-17-17 09:54 PM - Post#222167
Outstanding defensive first half plus Cannady deadly from the arc resulted in a solid 9-point advantage. It will be hard to sustain that shooting percentage but the Princeton D has been disruptive and the O has been producing open looks, which a good formula for success. First half play was decisively in Princeton's favor but Yale is still in the game because of their work on the offensive glass. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274
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02-17-17 09:57 PM - Post#222172
Cook got nailed a bunch of times last weekend Bell had three against Columbia 
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 10:11 PM - Post#222177
Small lineup comes in and works pretty well, but Downey did manage to get another follow basket. Previous possession Stephens continued to torment Downey as a defender, getting him to turn it over. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 10:14 PM - Post#222180
The Myles Stephens show: Hit a trey, force a steal, hit fast-break layup over three Yale would-be shot-blockers. Trot calmly back to the bench after the resulting Eli time-out. That guy is amazing. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 10:24 PM - Post#222187
Gotta love the defense so far in the second half. Even with a few empty offensive possessions in a row, Yale unable to reel the Tigers in at all. Lead now at 12 with Jones trying his own small lineup, but not getting much out of it. Now for a strong closeout over the next ten minutes. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-17-17 10:32 PM - Post#222195
Weisz: 9 points, 7 boards, 7 assists (so far) |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 10:33 PM - Post#222196
Yale not quitting but looking like they know that this is not their night. They need to make up over two points per minute the rest of the way. Stephens slashing to the hoop at will. Weisz with nine assists. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 10:38 PM - Post#222199
Up 14 with 3:47 left to play. If the Tigers weren't playing so well i'd probably be bitching more about some of the one-sided officiating. Maybe the black jerseys are making them look like villains. |
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sparman PhD Student Posts 1346
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02-17-17 10:48 PM - Post#222210
Is it just me or is the lighting in the Yale gym kind of weird? It seems dark and the players have distinct shadows on the floor coming from some lighting source on one side. It's not you. The baselines and sidelines look like the game is being played outside. |
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JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
02-17-17 10:51 PM - Post#222213
Stephens is Ivy POY |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 10:52 PM - Post#222215
And the Tigers finish the wipeout by 19. They are not going to lose too often with either that good of shooting or that level of defense. Get both and the win should be big. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-17-17 10:52 PM - Post#222216
Wow, best performance of the Ivy campaign, soundly beating a really talented Yale team on their home court. They sustained their defensive effort and shooting all game long and Yale was never able to get back in the game. What a treat! |
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umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 
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02-17-17 10:58 PM - Post#222220
I don't want to count chickens before they hatch, but with wins on the road against Harvard, Yale and Penn, I feel like they're leading in the "popular vote" but of course, that doesn't matter. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 11:01 PM - Post#222221
Funny analogy. I'm very happy to have watched this terrific performance on the road against a tough team, but there is not the same sense of relief and exultation I used to get from such events. Nice to have the clean sheet in the loss column, though, for sure. BTW, Miller had 3 assists, 2 rebounds, a steal, and a block (plus 3 PFs) in limited playing time. And he had great low-post position a bunch of times in the first half without receiving the ball. While I'm glad Gladson is performing pretty well (including a nice one-on-one defensive stand against Copeland), I think we are going to need continued good play from Miller to get through the tournament. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001 
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02-17-17 11:04 PM - Post#222222
I don't want to count chickens before they hatch, but with wins on the road against Harvard, Yale and Penn, I feel like they're leading in the "popular vote" but of course, that doesn't matter. I was told quite insistently that the spectacular new Ivy tournament would make every regular season game meaningful. And yet now I find out that isn't true for Princeton's final five? |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-17-17 11:05 PM - Post#222223
Not too many tournament boosters in the black and orange precincts on these boards. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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02-17-17 11:10 PM - Post#222224
Yes. I knew that. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-17-17 11:31 PM - Post#222229
Chip's hopes are alive with big Penn win @ Brown tonight. Their board has been a lot more upbeat since they still cling to the possibility of a #4 finish plus the home court in the tourney. It would be ironic if the penn men crawled back from the grave to qualify for and then win the tournament at the same time their fine women's team swept the regular season and were then upset in the tournament and failed to get a 2nd bid? You laugh. But consider what happened to us all in November. 
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sparman PhD Student Posts 1346
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02-17-17 11:43 PM - Post#222233
I don't think anyone is laughing at this not-implausible possibility. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-18-17 12:08 AM - Post#222237
Very strong performance with defensive intensity and technique setting the tone once again. Tigers are a very different defensive team than prior years. You can count the number of uncontested shots on one or two hands that they give up and they get their fair share of open shots offensively. They easily could have enjoyed a 15 pt first half. Yale certainly did not quit and stayed in the game during the beginning of the 2nd half. Tigers are a selfless team and they go to the open shooter and/or hot guy. Weisz certainly sets the tone and Stephens is remarkably talented. I wonder if Henderson has anything to do with defensive effort and selfless play?? Yale announcers were accurate, analytical and not biased; not what you usually hear. They were very complementary as to the quality of play by the Tigers and what the season would look like right now if not for the (dopey) IL Tournament. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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02-18-17 12:26 AM - Post#222240
Chip's hopes are alive with big Penn win @ Brown tonight. Their board has been a lot more upbeat since they still cling to the possibility of a #4 finish plus the home court in the tourney. It would be ironic if the penn men crawled back from the grave to qualify for and then win the tournament at the same time their fine women's team swept the regular season and were then upset in the tournament and failed to get a 2nd bid? You laugh. But consider what happened to us all in November. To state the obvious, since I must: I was mocking the league's PR about the tournament. But I should have understood that you wouldn't understand. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-18-17 02:05 AM - Post#222246
Guess I'm not at your level of mocking, asstroll.
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-18-17 02:21 AM - Post#222248
Mr Bayers. I withdraw my above remark. I shouldn't post so reactively. On the other hand, neither should you. One would think, with this evening's success at Brown, you would be in a better mood. So, I can only think that you are either one unhappy dude or a very unpleasant person. If the former, you have my sympathy. If the latter, please troll elsewhere. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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02-18-17 02:26 AM - Post#222249
Jeez, all I did in the first place was make a lighthearted reply to Pat's post because we've known each other virtually for decades (yes, it has been that long). What happened after is all about some people having no sense of humor or perspective. You really need to look in a mirror. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-18-17 02:46 AM - Post#222250
I give Chip a break here; he was trying to play off of our mutual dislike for the tourney and the BS surrounding it. I didn't get it because the tone was a tad off. PU did all it could to knock Penn out of this thing. I am definitely rooting for Yale tomorrow because I do not want to see these guys in the Palestra for another crack at the Tigers. Although I guess losing to Brown would raise their chances of nosing out the Quakers. Oy, this tournament is creating all sorts of weirdness. I'm really liking my proposal more and more for the N+1 tournament (that I left in the comments of the Cornell thread on the Penn board). If the regular season champ goes undefeated, no tournament (or a tournament with only one team and zero games)--it would be like not having an election runoff if a candidate gets over 50% in the first round. If the champ has one loss, the champ and the second-best team play a one-game playoff. Two losses, and the top three teams have a playoff. Etc. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-18-17 03:01 AM - Post#222251
One thing I might have been wrong about is the effect of the tournament on coaches. I thought it would make their lives easier because they'd only have to get into the thing once every few years and maybe win one game in order to look acceptable. But it seems I've overlooked the anger fans feel at the prospect of being in the bottom four, which must feel worse now that there is a formal cut. The vitriol level on the earth-toned boards is rising to a level I haven't seen before. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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02-18-17 03:06 AM - Post#222252
I am certainly a tad off. But no more off than the higher power known as Variance who has kept the Quakers alive for another day! |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-18-17 08:23 AM - Post#222256
I agree, the Yale announcers were very good (although the guy on the right looked like he should be carded ...). And you are right about Princeton's defense, which never has been better. A great combination of athletic talent and tenacity, they anticipate switches, double the post quickly and deflect and disrupt many shots and passes. Last year we were concerned about the sporadic defensive efforts and I believe Brian Earl mainly focused on this when he was on the coaching staff, I wonder who has elevated the team's play this year? SRP - I also liked Miller's play last night, but I admit I am a fan of his game. He plays solid positional defense, rebounds well and offensive possessions always seem to flow better when he is on the court. Without Brase and Caruso the rotation is still short with the starters + Bell getting 90% of the minutes and only five players scoring last night before Brennan's garbage time bucket. Last night's game seemed like a bit of a throwback to the Carril era when stingy D, deliberate O and a short bench was often the formula for success. I hope they have enough gas tonight in Providence against a Brown team that got pasted by Penn. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-18-17 09:03 AM - Post#222259
One more thought: I really liked the way Cannady played in the second half after his out-of-body first half performance. Yale gave him much less room and he responded by playing within the offense, taking the ball to the rim and not forcing contested jumpers. And the extra attention he attracted also created additional opportunities that were seized by the dynamic play of Myles Stephens. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-18-17 09:05 AM - Post#222260
Still unlikely that the Tigers will go 14-0 as there is much basketball left to be played. Brown could be a trap game although the Tigers have matched up well in the past. Several challenging games ahead and anything can happen in one game. Your point about a team going 14-0 and then playing two games in 24 hours with the current format to get a NCAA bid is perfectly valid but there will be creative argument(s) to counter that --- what about an injury to a star player, etc. etc. Cannady made a comment in post-game that the Tigers would be in reasonably good shape for NCAA bid without the new format. There will be extra pressure on the Tigers to perform in the IL Tournament if they go 14-0. During IL Tournament weekend, I plan on skiing and not watching a minute and wait on the other side to see if the Tigers play in the NCAA or NIT Tournament. Will look forward to their participation in either but most importantly, I hope that they close the deal on winning the IL regular season -- it has been a while. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274
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02-18-17 12:00 PM - Post#222276
out-of-body first half performance. Makes you wonder how high is his ceiling? I don't think anyone other than Bradley has scored 40 in a game. I think Brian Taylor hit 39 once, and Geoff Petrie scored 32 once. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
02-18-17 02:17 PM - Post#222293
Petrie's scored 39 and Kevin Mullin had 38. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-19-17 08:35 PM - Post#222594
Very tough to beat a team 3 times, as Penn found out in '96. Would be beyond awesome to see Penn come out of nowhere and knock off Princeton at the Palestra. But a lot of work to be done before Penn can get to that point.
Tough talk for a team with a 2-6 record Bump. And now you guys are already starting to complain about potentially facing this 2-6 team in the Palestra. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-19-17 09:42 PM - Post#222595
It would be so tempting to tank the Columbia game just to frustrate Penn. On the other hand, there is a moral imperative to destroy Columbia fans' hopes and dreams. Quite a dilemma. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-19-17 09:56 PM - Post#222597
And how would you feel if the tables were turned and you were looking at a possible championship and then tourney against Princeton in Jadwin? Penn has done a remarkable turnaround and appears to be very tough to beat ... now. But, they still managed to lose their first six. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-19-17 09:58 PM - Post#222598
After the way we nearly lost to Columbia in Jadwin, it might not be a "tank". |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-19-17 10:15 PM - Post#222603
It would be so tempting to tank the Columbia game just to frustrate Penn. And even more delicious if Harvard then runs the table and, thanks to your tanking, knocks you out of the first seed. |
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westphillywarrior Sophomore Posts 196 |
02-19-17 10:29 PM - Post#222607
It would be so tempting to tank the Columbia game just to frustrate Penn. And even more delicious if Harvard then runs the table and, thanks to your tanking, knocks you out of the first seed. Think this through PN. Princeton would rather not have the first seed. They would much rather see a Harvard - Penn first round match. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32812 |
02-19-17 10:31 PM - Post#222608
Cool it guys, the thing that the Princeton fans are complaining of is exactly what we would be complaining if the situation were reversed. Their team will not tank--it thinks (rightfully) that it can beat anyone in the League and will try and run the table. Rather than think about the Princeton tank, let's all agree that Penn should run the table and Yale lose 2 so that Penn gets 3rd seed and we don't have to meet in a first round. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-19-17 10:33 PM - Post#222609
Out of curiosity, where are the teams being housed? |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3618 
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02-19-17 10:40 PM - Post#222611
First, Penn Nation - just stop it buddy. It's way, way to early for this talk. Much work to be done to even get us in the tournament. Second, Tiger69 - I'd bet that PN is anti-tournament just like the majority of Penn fans were. That ship has sailed however so no point crying over the split milk. All we can do is embrace the madness. ;-) |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-19-17 10:44 PM - Post#222612
What we (actually I) would prefer is for the League champ to rightfully receive the NCAA bid and for another Ivy to get a 2nd bid (and free pizza if it wins the Tourney). I know ... It's not going to happen
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32812 |
02-19-17 10:50 PM - Post#222613
I got room in my house----big party the night before! |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-19-17 10:57 PM - Post#222615
I was thinking more along the lines of making sure that the visitors get treated to the best of Center City while our Quakers get a good night's sleep in their own rooms. Really, I'm just trying to have a little fun with this with our NJ neighbors. Correct, I did not want to see a tourney. And yes, we haven't gotten there (yet). I just think it's funny that some Tiger fans have suddenly become fearful of our bunch that might spoil the party that they think they're entitled to. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-19-17 11:12 PM - Post#222619
I wouldn't really want to tank it. I hate it when PU loses. But if MH wants to keep some of the starters more rested and reduce injury risk at this point, it would be hard to blame him. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-19-17 11:24 PM - Post#222622
You hit that on the head. We can never know, but can still wonder how all the young Ivy talent would fare in OOC now. Since all our games are now in conference, there is no way to demonstrate improvement to our "friends" from the power conferences who dominate the NCAA selection committee. I hope and expect the Ivies to perform better in OOC games next fall ... if any power conference teams have the cajones to play Ivies home and home. |
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sparman PhD Student Posts 1346
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02-20-17 09:29 AM - Post#222633
PN is right about one thing - I think the team that won the regular season is, or should be, entitled to go the party. And as some of colleagies have noted, he would feel the same way if Penn won. |
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umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476
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02-20-17 03:23 PM - Post#222680
To be clear, while I did not prefer a tournament - what I think is the principal gripe is it being hosted at the Palestra. Mike James said the odds of Princeton beating Harvard on a neutral court are roughly the same as beating Penn on the road. So, it further warps the seeding as well. I'd prefer a tournament that rewards regular season performance, either with a home game or a bye - but at the minimum, it should be at a neutral court. My idea where the conference gets an automatic bid - but the NCAA can choose between the regular season winner or the tournament winner is too radical, I think. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-20-17 05:53 PM - Post#222717
No takers for my #champion's-losses+!-post -season-field plan? Combine that with hosting the tourney at the regular-season champ's home court and you might have something. You could always add a cap of four teams maximum, although if Dartmouth ever won with a 9-5 record and there were no cap, having six teams playing off in Hanover would be weird but memorable. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-20-17 06:09 PM - Post#222719
I believe that Vegas would currently have Princeton as a 2 to 4 pt favorite, probably 3 pts, at a neutral site with Harvard based on performance y-t-d. The spread would probably change based on the remaining four games, particularly the result of the Harvard game at Jadwin. As to Penn, the spread would be less than when the Tigers played Penn not that long ago based on the recent improved play of Penn. Right now, the spread might be 5 to 7 points. The key fact is that the spread differential playing H-Y-P at a neutral sight vs. at Palestra should be around 2 points, a home court competitive advantage for Penn. I love the concept that if any one of the three teams lose to Penn at the Palestra in a one game scenario, all three teams would lose in the NCAA tournament in game one. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-20-17 08:13 PM - Post#222746
I have a different perspective. Coach H should try his very best to have the Tigers go 14-0. There can be a risk as to injury and fatigue but it would be worth it. Few IL teams have achieved undefeated status and the players will remember what they achieved along with the League Championship banner for the rest of their lives. Play to win!! If they go 16-0 vs. 14-0, very challenging, so much the better but that requires that they win six more games in a row with some tough competition. If they do not get to the NCAA Tournament, it will be very disappointing but there is probably a 50% chance that it will happen although Vegas will be able to handicap the odds at the end of the season. Bummer for Weisz and Cook. The simple solution to all the madness was to have the IL Champion get an automatic bid and another Ivy team get a second bid if they cracked the top 50 but that would be a function of earning the bids the tough way. Let's first be the Ivy League Champions before all of the other stuff. Columbia will be beyond desperate. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-20-17 09:02 PM - Post#222758
If you recall, my fantasy at the beginning of the season was, as always, going undefeated overall and winning the national championship. So I'm still not giving up on 14-0 or 16-0 or 22-0 from here on out. But coaches may have different utility functions from fans. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-20-17 09:08 PM - Post#222759
Home court is worth 3-4 pts. Princeton would likely open as a 3-4 pt favorite over both Harvard on a neutral court and Penn on the road. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-20-17 09:14 PM - Post#222760
That's a 7 point swing if you are Princeton playing Penn at the Palestra compared to having the regular season champion host that playoff game. Big difference! |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-20-17 09:18 PM - Post#222761
My fantasy too. However, if forced to choose, I'll take a real championship and a lost NCAA BID to some less worthy team over runner-up in league play followed by tourney cup (and free pizza!) and a bid (with a crappy seed) and, likely, a forgettable, short run at the Dance. Champions are the ones who prevail over the long haul. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-20-17 09:20 PM - Post#222762
I really got into Dunk City, but maybe that was just me... |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-20-17 09:27 PM - Post#222763
So I take it you are a conscientious objector if a wild card wins any professional sports championship? |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-20-17 10:48 PM - Post#222781
I would rather play in the NCAA tournament than win the Ivy regular season. See, Kansas never has to worry about choices like that. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-20-17 11:07 PM - Post#222786
Thanks for the Trumpesque deflection of the question, but your thoughts on wild card teams? |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-21-17 12:29 AM - Post#222794
I thought you were talking to someone else. There is no comparability with NFL wild cards. The division winners always make the playoffs--they don't have to first beat the second-place team from their division, then enter the playoffs. WCs are like at-large bids. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-21-17 12:51 AM - Post#222796
PN: Frankly, I'm not a pro sports nut. The purpose of pro sports is making money through entertainment, so they can and will do anything they want to fill the seats and get on TV. But the Ivy League was founded because its member institutions believed that the emphasis on college sports had grown out of hand with their educational purpose. So, I don't find your question relevant. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-21-17 07:35 AM - Post#222801
Bradley, I'm with you. Tanking and/or resting starters and trying to game the league tournament seeds seems misguided to me. Going undefeated in the 14GT would be very difficult and a huge accomplishment for Coach Henderson and the Tigers. Having to win another 2 games in 24 hours including the possibility of playing Penn on its home court would be another enormous challenge, but if they pull it off their 16-0 record would likely result in the best possible outcome for this year's team for its NCAA seeding. In any case the seniors are likely to bring the league title back to Princeton, which when Brase and Caruso went down seemed highly unlikely. Being part of March Madness is such a career culmination and thrill for the players and their fans, it is a shame that earning the right to represent the league there has been reduced to a weekend crapshoot for players like Weisz, Cook and Miller who have worked their tails off for 4 years to realize that dream. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-21-17 09:45 AM - Post#222819
Well said. There is still plenty of work to do over the next four games. The road trip this weekend will be challenging based on Columbia's desperate need to win and Coach Earl will be calling out Princeton's plays once again -- this time, at Ithaca. Throw on top playing a young but talented Crimson team the following weekend. I do believe that Coach H owes it to Weisz, Cook and others to go for the gold. It is starting to become clearer as to the likely seeding for each one of the IL Tournament teams if they win although the remaining games will have an impact. Historically, big difference as to the success of teams between #12/13 vs. #15/16. Ivy League's reputation has been enhanced based on their recent performance at the Big Dance; certainly not their non-conference performance. Why at the NCAA tournament? Very good teams have represented the IL in recent years. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-21-17 10:03 AM - Post#222824
Umm, here are our recent strong NCAA performances: 2011 - Loss at buzzer to UK by a Princeton team that was a made 2pt J away from not representing the league 2013 - Win over New Mexico by a Harvard team that needed an epic Princeton collapse in the final weekend or else it would have been playing in the CIT 2015 - Loss at buzzer to UNC by a Harvard team that only was there due to Gabas Maldunas 2016 - Win over Baylor by a Yale team that only avoided a playoff due to Patrick Steeves. 2014 was the only recent year when a team won the league by a healthy margin and impressed in the NCAA Tournament. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-21-17 11:31 AM - Post#222846
If I understand your point correctly although I am not sure what is your point, the IL's reputation has not been enhanced by the performance of Princeton, Harvard(s) or Yale over the past six years or that there would not have been any significant difference in results by a 2nd, 3rd or 4th place team who would have received a 15th or 16th seed. 2016- Harvard (14-16) vs. Yale (23-7) 2015 -- Dartmouth (14-15) or Princeton (16-14) vs. Harvard (22-8) 2014 -- Columbia (21-13)or Yale (19-14) vs. Harvard (27-5) 2013 -- Brown (13-15) or Yale (14-17) vs. Harvard (20-10) 2012 -- Yale (19-10) vs. Harvard (26-5) But I believe based on your prior comments, you believe that it is highly unlikely that a Penn or a Columbia or a Yale can win the IL Tournament this year. Some analysts have already put out projections as to the chances of each of the possible four seeds to get the coveted automatic bid. 
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-21-17 12:31 PM - Post#222853
I was responding to this:
Historically, big difference as to the success of teams between #12/13 vs. #15/16. Ivy League's reputation has been enhanced based on their recent performance at the Big Dance; certainly not their non-conference performance. Why at the NCAA tournament? Very good teams have represented the IL in recent years. This implies (or sort of explicitly states) that any team other than the 1-seed representing the league would have impacted our recent tourney performance adversely because they would be, presumably, lower seeded. Yet in 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2016 - all years in which we won or lost at the buzzer in our R64 game - we had two teams that would have been basically the same seed. And when you look at the odds that *both* of those teams would have failed to win the bid, it's a very long shot. So, you can go ahead and fearmonger about the "what if" of a 4th place Dartmouth team winning in 2015, but Harvard and Yale would win that bid like 90+% of the time. I don't like the 4th seed having home court. Hopefully that's clear. It will distort the odds of the best team(s) winning. But absent that HCA issue, there's a long track record of people's fears about the quality drop from the 1-seed down being comically overblown. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-21-17 02:31 PM - Post#222874
If one disregards the notion that the winner of the Ivy League has earned the right to represent the league based on won-lost record, i.e. Bill Parcells theory that you are what your record says you are, it sounds like you are advocating a two team playoff system rather than the four team format if the objective was to enhance the reputation of the Ivy League based on the probable performance of the IL team in the NCAA tournament over time based on your comments. The current projection of Yale, Penn and/or Yale, as roughly having a collective 25% chance to win the IL Tournament and receive a 15 to 16 seed falls into your fear mongering category, I guess. There are some legitimate arguments as to the tournament such as keeping the hopes of 8 teams alive, the excitement of the tournament, etc. but the concept that the IL Tournament winner will perform similar to the Ivy League Champion over time may fall into the category of stretching a vivid imagination to justify a desired result. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-21-17 06:39 PM - Post#222914
This year is interesting on this point. Unless the home court advantage catapults Penn to the title, different biases and perspectives could support HP or even Y as the 'best' NCAA representative. Princeton has experience and is undefeated, but the glaring hole at the center position and the lack of experienced depth due to injuries means that long athletic teams could blow Princeton out of the building. Yale is more athletic, but its larger athletes are young and its bigs are not athletic. Harvard is a moving target. Zena is the only big that can play with anyone, Siyani is the most experienced PG and can boast 3 years of NCAA success. On the other hand, the rest of the team are freshmen and the 3pt shooting unreliable. Likely, it all depends on the opponent and good fortune (e.g., 3 pt shooting). |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-21-17 08:12 PM - Post#222930
After last weekend how can you pose Yale as our "best" NCAA representative? Seriously? Possibly, another year. You did go to harvard, did you not? |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-21-17 08:41 PM - Post#222935
I disagree that there is a hole at the center position. Miller is underrated and has really picked it up lately, Gladson has been solid if a tad slow and inexperienced, and Brennan has shown flashes in his short minutes. Even Aririguzoh hasn't looked bad. The small lineup has been a function of having five nearly interchangeable defenders who are all good on offense in Bell, Cannady, Cook, Stephens, and Weisz and that being too good of a mismatch to resist at times. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-21-17 11:24 PM - Post#222958
Against Power 5 squads I think Princeton's centers could be a decisive liability. Remember - 0 pts and 0 rbs as a group against Harvard. Not a single big averages even 3pts. Henderson has to double aggressively against opposing centers. Princeton is good, but not at this position. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
02-21-17 11:31 PM - Post#222959
Miller is overrated by most Princeton fans. If Brase had been able to play last year we might have had a couple of good wins. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-22-17 01:32 AM - Post#222964
I strongly disagree. Miller's strength is that he gives us what we need when we need it. He is a quiet and completely unselfish player. Last season he bailed us out twice in league games when the rest of our offense went silent. He is a good and hardworking defender and rebounder who usually takes away the inside game of much glossier opponents. He buys into our team approach. You'll never hear him whine. As hard as Hans Brase played, he was often overmatched by taller opponents. If we could only have one or the other this season, we were lucky it was Pete Miller. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 411
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02-22-17 06:01 AM - Post#222968
Well said Tiger69. Clearly Miller and the other centers don't present a game-planning challenge compared to the rest of the starters and Bell. But they know their role to make the offense hard to defend and they execute it well. Ball screens, spacing, and passing from the 5 spot are much more important than scoring for this year's team. And when the team has needed rebounds and blocked shots, Pete Miller has been a dependable contributor. If the team makes it to the NCAA's it will be due to a consistently stout defense and an offense with many weapons and Miller has been a big part of both even if his box score numbers are not impressive. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1888 |
02-22-17 07:45 AM - Post#222973
I completely agree. And look what he did against Brown when they chose to focus on the other four Tigers--a quick 10 points from Pete made a big difference. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-22-17 11:37 AM - Post#222992
Miller definitely contributes - against some teams. His better games are against smaller Ivy squads. My point - which started this part of the discussion - was that Miller (and Brennan/Gladson) don't stack up well against bigger athletic squads, a weakness that could be exploited in the NCAA's. Against Harvard, Miller started, played 2 minutes, committed a foul, was pulled - and Henderson never played him again. Again, none of those three scored or grabbed a rebound in 32 combined minutes. I started to look at a few boxscores and stopped after two games. My observation is evidenced by what Mika (26pts/18rbs) and Kempton (24pts/11reb) did in Princeton's first two games. (Yes, Brase played, but so did the others.) My point is that Princeton's bigs are a problem against a bigger talented opponent. If that opponent can play two or three big athletic guys (AZ, 'Cuse), what happens to Princeton's offense if two of Miller/Brennan/Gladson have to be on the court at the same time? |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-22-17 11:47 AM - Post#222995
A wish at the beginning of the year was that the Tigers would develop the capability to play two bigs at the same time when they might face a ACC, Big Ten, etc. in the NCAA championship. I was not sure if they needed two bigs in defending Harvard bigs which was the only Ivy League team of some concern. Last year, the Tigers had issues when facing the size of Maryland and Miami as Weisz and/or Caruso gave up too much size down deep. I was surprised that Henderson did not try Brase and Miller together at the beginning of the season to develop this capability. Fortunately, Stephens got added to the mix and he certainly plays bigger than his height. Weisz is much better as a deep down defender this year and Cook seems to have added a few inches to his leaping ability. No one other than VCU has provided physical issues over the Tigers but that may change if they go to the Big Dance. It will be interesting to see if the Harvard bigs have more success at Jadwin than Lavietes. The only Ivy big who plays the post continuously, Downey, had little success against Miller and crew but surprisingly had 15 pts/14 rebounds against Harvard -- go figure. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
02-22-17 12:32 PM - Post#222999
Afraid I have to agree with Harvarddadgrad on this. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-22-17 12:41 PM - Post#223001
I agree that Princeton is mostly made up of small forwards/big guards who can body up against forwards. I'm talking about legitimate athletic bigs. Harvard only plays one big scoring threat at a time - Zena or Lewis - and neither can score away from the basket. The reason Zena/Lewis didn't score much is the double teaming by the opposite guard on EVERY possession. Despite that, Lewis eventually learned to split the double team for 11pts on 5-6 shooting. Suggesting that Princeton didn't see strong bigs seems to forget Mika and Kempton. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
02-22-17 01:22 PM - Post#223011
It is the TEAM that wins games, not the individual. Remind me again, who is still in first place, having thusfar defeated all those teams with higher rated front courts? Of course, harvard, with all its shiny 3 and 4 star recruits must be a better representative of the IL. Why bother having a regular season at all, if it might jeopardize h's chance to represent the league. Oh, wait a minute! We have a tourney to thwart any unworthy or inconvenient winner of the regular season championship! Order can be restored for the choice of our NCAA rep. Why, maybe even a great team with a mediocre record like Penn can prevail! Now, if we could only convince the NCAA to move all its tournament games to the Magic Palestra .... |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
02-22-17 02:09 PM - Post#223020
Miller had a bad start against Mika and Kempton. I suspect that Brase starting ahead of him affected his confidence, because those were his two worst defensive games since freshman year. (Of course, a lot of those points were scored with him off the floor, but still, he was not sharp.) He was good against Cal's Ivan Raab and the Bucknell guy, where there was little double-teaming. Also, the point of bringing the hard double isn't just to shut down the Brodeurs and Lewises. It is to jam up the other team and make them throw bad passes and/or have to reset. Even if Miller can contain his man without help, passes out of the post on that man's schedule have presented problems; some of the Tigers have struggled with man-you-ball orientation when the man and ball are on opposite sides of their body, and their rotations were slower. The double-team was addressing those problems so well that we saw it a lot against Brown, even though their inside guys are less of a threat. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
02-22-17 02:15 PM - Post#223021
You are right about Mika and Kempton scoring a lot of points primarily on Brase who was really a power forward both offensively and defensively. My point was that it is good to have two bigs on the floor when you play power conferences and the Ivies including Princeton and Harvard have not developed two big defenders on the floor at the same time without slowing down their offense to a stall. It is a weakness for both teams if they get the automatic bid. By the way, Lewis got 4 of his 11 points on breakaways due to poor passes by Cannady and Stephens at Lavietes. He did not show much of an offensive game but he certainly has a lot of talent. In the past, there has a fair amount of discussion regarding Zena's game as to POY possibilities and first team Ivy League -- that ship has obviously sailed but he still has the opportunity to right the ship. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274
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02-23-17 07:21 AM - Post#223085
Miller had a bad start against Mika and Kempton. .........the hard double isn't just to shut down the Brodeurs and Lewises. It is to jam up the other team and make them throw bad passes and/or have to reset. Exactly correct. The biggest change I see over the course of this year is the implementation of the quick hard double on anyone in the low post, now even if the big is not a particular scoring threat. I suspect it was a direct response to the troubles with Mika and Kempton. The team now executes it quickly and automatically, and it is fun to watch. The double starts with the pass, not with the catch, and the weak side rotation is quick to defend the man whose defender has moved down low. They also know how to rotate back and find the open man when the ball leaves the post. The open shot is in the opposite corner, but by the time the ball gets there, the man is usually covered again, although often by flying at him. I wonder how much Kittles has contributed to this strategy. And put me down as someone who likes Miller quite a bit, despite his stats. The statement about a glaring hole at center is a bit ad hominem for my taste, considering players and families could be reading this board. |
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