Select "print" from your browser's "File" menu.

Back to Post
Username Post: Boudreaux Player Of The Week
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-20-17 02:02 PM - Post#222670    

Well done Evan! Looking like a top POY contender to me!

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/mbkb/2016-17...
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-20-17 02:11 PM - Post#222672    

Congrats - If anyone from the league is reading this, please review how stats are tallied in your press releases. Betley's 13-23 is not 45.8% shooting. Also, touting fact that Chambers shot 20% on 3's vs Columbia is a bit odd
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-20-17 03:02 PM - Post#222679    

I'd love to see Evan win it this year. My only fear is that that would be an accomplishment he could cross off the list that would make it easier for him to leave.

It was great that we went to the CIT a few years back, first post season in like half a century or whatever, but in hindsight it was during that CIT game that Mitola scored his 1000th point.

Wondering if he'd have stayed for his final year had he not done achieved that momentous milestone. And I think his departure was the first domino that lead to our current standing.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-20-17 03:41 PM - Post#222681    

  • hoopla Said:
I'd love to see Evan win it this year. My only fear is that that would be an accomplishment he could cross off the list that would make it easier for him to leave.





Boudreaux told the Valley News this past Friday he has no plans to leave.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-20-17 03:48 PM - Post#222683    

I saw that but plans and opportunities can develop quickly
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-20-17 03:48 PM - Post#222684    

But I was glad to see that
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-20-17 03:50 PM - Post#222686    

Also, even if he is considering it or open to consider it, I'm pretty sure he'd answer in the negative.

But again glad he answered in the negative!
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-20-17 04:10 PM - Post#222688    

  • hoopla Said:
I saw that but plans and opportunities can develop quickly




My recollection (perhaps mistaken) is that Boudreaux--unlike Mitola--had several opportunities to play at a higher level of basketball than the Ivy coming out of high school.

He chose to come to Dartmouth. He's a legacy. He's said he's not leaving.

If you're still worried that he's going to transfer, I'm not sure what I can tell you...
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-20-17 04:35 PM - Post#222696    

An interesting selection although I'm not 100% Boudreaux even had the best weekend among his teammates.

And yes, Betley's composite stats were miscalculated which is embarrassing. For that matter, it's not clear why Boudreaux gets the nod as POW over either of the other two rookies who were co-ROWs. Tough to really distinguish any one player here; in addition, both teams went 2-0 thanks to their efforts.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-20-17 05:40 PM - Post#222709    

Really? When you get to 100% sure, do let us know your informed, final opinion. Got the wife and kids with me staring at the computer screen waiting to read your analysis. This is more exciting than waiting for Hoopla to explain his thinking that he's hoping Boudreaux won't win POY cause it'll be the feather in his cap that he's always coveted and will therefore leave Dartmouth. Wow....
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-20-17 06:56 PM - Post#222728    

Actually, my bad as Dartmouth was the only team there that did not sweep this past weekend.

As to my point--a reasonable case can be made for Smith over Boudreaux.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-20-17 06:58 PM - Post#222729    

Guillien Smith averaged 19/game.

Evan averaged 19.5/game.

Betley was terrific, averaging 20/game with a 7:1 assist turnover, but Evan was the rightful winner I think due to 9.5 rebounds/game.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-20-17 07:02 PM - Post#222731    

It seems freshmen get relegated to ROW and not considered for POW
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-20-17 07:04 PM - Post#222732    

Right. There must've been at least a few weeks last year when Evan Boudreaux won ROW but could've won POW.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
02-20-17 09:27 PM - Post#222764    

I read some somewhere that the League keeps stats in 13 categories and that only Spieth is listed in all of them. Will he be POY? Not likely. Neither will Bordeaux.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-20-17 09:31 PM - Post#222767    

Like last year, we will have an interesting split where the super high statistical performers are on the lower division teams. My guess is that Cook or Weisz manages to end up POY, but if it isn't somebody on a playoff team, Spieth as a senior seems like a good bet. My guess is that he would get the nod over Boudreaux if we're choosing among non playoff teams. Of course if either team gets on a run and makes the top 4, that would help a lot.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-20-17 09:42 PM - Post#222772    

  • Old Bear Said:
Not likely. Neither will Bordeaux.



Nor will Merlot.

penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-20-17 10:36 PM - Post#222778    

Except that EB needed to take a lot more shots to get his points than the others.

  • hoopla Said:
Guillien Smith averaged 19/game.

Evan averaged 19.5/game.

Betley was terrific, averaging 20/game with a 7:1 assist turnover, but Evan was the rightful winner I think due to 9.5 rebounds/game.



SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-20-17 10:55 PM - Post#222782    

Kind of been the story all year for Boudreaux and Dartmouth. His ORAT is actually about 98, which is below average efficiency. Not necessarily Boudreaux's fault in any way, but he is taking more shots yo get his points this year.

Interestingly, Dartmouth's only players above 100 ORAT are Barry, Fleming, Dickinson, and Smith. And only Smith has a high usage rate -- the others are unimaginably low. That could suggest that Dartmouth would be better served to spread the shots out a little more and have more of them come from their most efficient players, though it also could be that those ORATs would drop if Barry, Fleming, and Dickinson had to shoulder more of the load.


penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-20-17 11:06 PM - Post#222785    

I'll say this much--EB does not crack the 3 stars of the game for Dartmouth in that Columbia game. The D guards played and shot out of their minds in that one, though.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-20-17 11:47 PM - Post#222791    

Best Rebounder in the league by a wide margin. No one close. Top 50 in the country in NCAA D1 in Def rebounds(18th), total rebounds (39th), and double doubles(34th). I think Dartmouth fans will take all the Evan Boudreaux's we can get.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-21-17 12:02 AM - Post#222792    

I agree with all of this. Just not regarding Saturday night, that's all.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-21-17 12:28 AM - Post#222793    

Boudreaux does everything well. Great to hear that he bleeds Dartmouth Green and likely will play all 4 years.

I disagree about the best Ivy League rebounder however. Based on Mike James analytics Edosomwan is the 'best' rebounder in Ivy league history based on percentage of rebounds per opportunities. I know Boudreaux leads the league in rebounds per game, but Zena leads in rebounds per minute by a large margin and I expect rebounding efficiency as well. Zena leads in each of offensive and defensive rebounds per minute and averages more offensive rebounds than Bourdreaux in half the minutes. If Amaker would play Zena more than 16 minutes/game, he'd be averaging in double figures and lead the league as he did last year.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-21-17 12:55 AM - Post#222797    

Zena is a good rebounder. Boudreaux will likely get to say he led the Ivy league in-conference and out-of-conference in total rebounding for the season. There won't be an asterisk next to his numbers. Zena (who gets more offensive rebounds) will get to say he was a more "efficient" rebounder IF he played more minutes in a hypothetical 'what if' scenario (no guarantee that he would actually get those numbers, though I concede he statistically/probably would). If that's the case, Amaker should play him more, right? I still think at the end of the season when people ask who was the top rebounder in the Ivy League this season, the answer will be Boudreaux. Not Zena.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-21-17 01:03 AM - Post#222798    

Yes, Boudreaux will average more rbg this year, but I still think the stats show Zena is the 'best' rebounder this year (that was the claim I responded to). Note: Zena led the league in rebounding last year despite playing less minutes than Boudreaux then also.

Also, based on my eye test, I'd take Zena if there is one key rebound needed.




hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-21-17 01:11 AM - Post#222799    

If he's such a great rebounder, "the best" as you say, why doesn't he play more?
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-21-17 07:44 AM - Post#222802    

This is a bit if a mystery. Both the stats and the eye test say he should play big minutes. Could be a lot of things. Might be playing the freshmen, and still planning to go full Zena in the postseason. Might be that he broke down as the focal point last year and left Harvard without their best player, so they try to spot him and keep him healthy. It also could be that his game doesn't fit well into what they are generally trying to do with the rest of the pieces. So he gets his stats but makes everybody else less efficient. But these are just guesses.

I would also hazard a guess that he would be playing 30+ minutes if he were at Dartmouth.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-21-17 08:38 AM - Post#222807    

Z is the best defensive rebounder back to 02-03 followed by Kenyatta Smith and best total rebounder followed by Greg Mangano. Boudreaux is 3rd and T-3rd in those categories, respectively, so he's definitely among the elite of the Ivy elites on the glass.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-21-17 10:00 AM - Post#222822    

Do you agree MR James that Boudreau is or should be in contention for POY?
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-21-17 10:13 AM - Post#222826    

  • hoopla Said:
Do you agree MR James that Boudreau is or should be in contention for POY?



Wouldn't getting first-team All Ivy be enough?

I don't think we've had a first-team All Ivy sophomore since Shaun Gee.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-21-17 10:36 AM - Post#222836    

First team will be great, Go Green! But I am curious about MR James's opinion on where he thinks Boudreaux is positioned with respect to POY.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
02-21-17 04:54 PM - Post#222897    

I think it's doubtful that any player who's on a team that's likely to finish in the bottom 2 or 3 in a conference is going to be selected for that conference's POY. That might not be fair, but it's reality.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-21-17 06:12 PM - Post#222905    


I think the sophomore thing will hurt more than the lower-division finish.

Dartmouth took last in football last fall, but still got a POY.

HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-21-17 06:16 PM - Post#222907    

I think Boudreaux has a real chance at POY. The balance of many clubs and the role of freshmen may just help him stand out as the most integral MVP of any squad.

Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Columbia really don't have an indispensable player, but that is likely because of the strength of the supporting cast rather than a dearth of quality players.

Likely competition comes from the teams built around a particular player like Spieth, Morgan and less likely Brodeur.

Boudreaux seems to be the leading candidate along with maybe Spieth - assuming the POY can come from a non-tournament team.




penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
02-21-17 06:31 PM - Post#222911    

Penn won't have anyone on the first team, and I'm not even sure about second team. Its best players started out just awful in Ivy play, far worse than their OOC play.


HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-21-17 06:44 PM - Post#222917    

Then I think POY is either Boudreaux or Spieth.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-21-17 08:46 PM - Post#222938    

Who do I think comprises the short list for best Ivy player this year or who do I think will get picked for POY by the coaches? The former is interesting, and I'd have to think about it. I'd be shocked if the answer to the latter is a sophomore on a bottom four team. The better question is whether he makes 1st Team. The only lower division team with any prayer at POY is Brown with Spieth. I'd expect the POY to be the best player on Princeton, to be honest.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
02-21-17 08:47 PM - Post#222939    

I wouldn't trade Cook, Weisz, Stephens, or Cannady for Speith, although he is an excellent player.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-21-17 09:00 PM - Post#222947    

Which raises the question: is POY the actual best overall player in the IL, or is it the best player on a winning team? It used to be the best player in the league (as there have been many times throughout history that a POY came from a bottom 4 team). 2 at Dartmouth that I know of. I think whether it's Boudreaux or Spieth or someone else, it should be the overall best player in the IL, regardless of class they are in. Since coaches do vote, they are closer to who they feel is the best overall player they have competed against. A good player who is lucky enough to be on a "better" team for whatever reasons, shouldn't get POY over a better player who happens to be on a poor team. In both cases, neither player can do anything about the quality/makeup of the team they happen to play on. My opinion.
Interested to hear what others think.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-21-17 09:06 PM - Post#222949    

A player *can* win POY from a bad team, but he has to be transcendent. Alex Barnett in 2009 was taking 33% of Dartmouth's shots and was efficient at it. Would have been impossible to say no. And that's what you have to do if you want it on a bad team.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-21-17 09:28 PM - Post#222952    

  • mrjames Said:
A player *can* win POY from a bad team, but he has to be transcendent. Alex Barnett in 2009 was taking 33% of Dartmouth's shots and was efficient at it. Would have been impossible to say no. And that's what you have to do if you want it on a bad team.



Barnett was also a senior.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-21-17 09:33 PM - Post#222953    

I don't think the Ivy POY has come from a bottom 4 or even sub .500 team since 1981. Pretty sure the Barnett Dartmouth team went .500 and finished 4th.

So there isn't any recent precedent that I see. Personally, I think the stats tend to lie in regard to players on weak teams. Boudreaux gets the numbers because nobody else is there to do it. That shouldn't be a disadvantage, but it also shouldn't be an advantage that he gets to score all Dartmouth's points while Princeton and Yale's guys are sharing the burden equally.

While I'm always skeptical of stats on bad teams, and I generally lean toward voting for a player on a winning team, I do think it is theoretically possible for the best player to be on a bad team. So I would never say never. If ever there was a year for it to happen, it is probably this year, as no upper class men really stick out statistically on the top teams. Nonetheless, I'd pick Weisz, I'd pick Cook if it isn't Weisz, and I think the coaches will go with Spieth if they go with a lower division statistical beast. While the counting stats are still king, the fact that Boudreaux hasn't had a particularly good year in terms of efficiency hurts, too.
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3615
Mike Porter
02-22-17 12:01 AM - Post#222960    

Was it Craig Austin (was that his name?) from Columbia that won POY one year in late 90s early 00s? Can't remember what that team did in league though.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-22-17 12:53 AM - Post#222963    

Well, do remember Boudreaux is double and at times triple teamed on nearly every possession (because he is the main guy on Dartmouth's team) and he still puts up great numbers anyway. And he plays 33 mins a game. He's tough. Pretty sure any player in any league that's double/triple teamed each game will wind up with lower efficiency numbers. I think (you all will correct me if I'm wrong) Boudreaux and Brodeur are the only guys consistently double and triple teamed in the league.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-22-17 07:12 AM - Post#222969    

Yes, Austin played at Columbia and won POY as a junior on a 4th place .500 team. They were bad his senior year (and he didn't win that year -- not sure he even made first team).
Cooper
Sophomore
Posts 143
02-22-17 09:28 AM - Post#222978    

Deserving or not is disputable. Indisputable is the fact that Boudreaux is not going to win the POY. It's simply not going to happen.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-22-17 11:00 AM - Post#222985    

Princeton double teams opposing centers and Columbia's zone collapses inside. Zena used to get double teamed all the time, but Harvard doesn't play through him much this year.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-22-17 07:50 PM - Post#223057    

It's far from an impossibility. The coaches just get one vote, so it's pretty easy to see a split where Weisz and Cook split the "winning team" vote and somebody else sneaks in. More likely to be Spieth than Boudreaux, but stranger things have happened.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-22-17 08:02 PM - Post#223059    

I agree the Princeton guys will split the vote to some extent. I also believe they will get all of the votes.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-27-17 02:36 PM - Post#223878    

Hi guys:
Monday morning and way too much coffee so here goes (and I admit this is a biased Dartmouth Fan's plug for Boudreaux for 1st Team All Ivy and POY). I felt I had to speak up after reading Mike Tony's write up this morning (fantastic piece Mike!) and I have a response to this quote from his piece:

"It’s disappointing that double-double-dependable Evan Boudreaux is getting lost in the All-Ivy first-team conversation, one that is focusing on Princeton’s also very deserving standouts. Boudreaux ranks second in the league in scoring, first in rebounding and second in minutes played, and yet I feel like Ivy onlookers take him too easily for granted."

Boudreaux is HANDS DOWN a 1st Team All Ivy Pick. My opinion. So in posts from this earlier thread on POY, you guys have pretty much answered my questions. According to the responses, Boudreaux can't/won't win Player of the Year (despite having far better points per game and rebounds (especially in Ivy play) than any other players discussed) because he is on a team that doesn't win. So because Boudreaux didn't win the teammate lottery, he won't win POY according to the armchair pundits despite blowing away the league (non-conference and conference)in rebounds and currently in second place in the league in scoring non-conference(by .2 pts) and leading the league in conference scoring. NO IVY TEAM has been able to shut Boudreaux down all season. He is averaging nearly a double double in conference play. In my mind, he's the best player in the league in scoring and rebounding. So the POY criteria isn't an MVP award, correct? It's a subjective best player on a winning team (whose coach recruited better than our fired coach) award that is oriented towards upper classman? So hypothetically, and I'm NOT comparing Lebron James to Boudreaux, if sophomore Lebron James played for Dartmouth (and they came in 8th place) and he won the scoring and rebounding title for the Ivy League, the powers that be would still award POY to an "athlete" on a winning team that doesn't compare to James and one that didn't get the numbers James got. This makes no sense to me, unless the award isn't an MVP award. Effectively, posters are saying individual stats aren't the main criteria in voting for POY and First Team All Ivy, winning games is, and the players that help their teams win get POY and First Team All Ivy and the top stats leaders aren't in the running. I think Boudreaux has to be considered one of the best players in the league this year, certainly the best in scoring and rebounding. If he wasn't, other teams would be able to stop him and he wouldn't have 14 double/doubles this season (8 in Ivy Play) and he wouldn't have scored in double figures in every Ivy Game and 24 of 25 regular season games. And for those that default saying Boudreaux gets these numbers because hes the only player on Dartmouth's team that's any good, then why didn't YOUR coach and other coaches figure out a way to stop him? They can't because he's the best player in the league (my opinion). I concede his %'s aren't as good as they were last year, but most every game he's been double/triple teamed and he's playing 33+ minutes per game. And for those with short memories, he averaged a double double in league play last year as a Freshman. I don't see any freshmen doing that this year. I maintain that Boudreaux has EARNED POY consideration (yes even though he is a sophomore (which is another seemingly ridiculous criteria: let's give it to an upper classman), and in my mind, he is the best player in the league and should be First Team All Ivy and I think he is the Player Of Year!
Signed,
Biased Dartmouth Fan
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-27-17 02:45 PM - Post#223882    

Evan Boudreaux should be First Team All-Ivy, assuming that it's an offense-focused, league-play focused award. It wouldn't be "hands down" for me, but I'd probably end up there.

I don't think the coaches see it the same way. That's all I was pointing out. I'm confident that he will not be Ivy POY, and I think he's behind four players to start for 1st Team All-Ivy (Weisz, Cook, Stephens and Spieth - who has the "senior" tag going for him to overcome the bad team issue).

At the end of the day, who cares what the awards say. You have a top five offensive talent in the league coming back for two more years. Be happy about that!!!
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-27-17 02:47 PM - Post#223883    

You have no idea how happy I was to hear he's coming back.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
02-27-17 06:45 PM - Post#223922    

He will be POY before its over. quite possibly more than once.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
02-27-17 07:13 PM - Post#223926    

Evan is the one player that each coach in the Ivy would want on their team, easily 1st team all Ivy.
"...no excuses - only results!”

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-27-17 09:45 PM - Post#223947    

It's more complicated than just who has the counting stats though. Boudreaux may not have won the teammate lottery. But suppose he did. Is he top two (or even top five) in either category if he is playing for Princeton? His efficiency would hopefully be up in that scenario, but he'd also be playing in an offense that evenly distributes the ball among four (and at times, five) options. My guess is that he wouldn't be their leading scorer this year.

Similarly, Steven Cook (or Weisz, or even Stephens or Cannady) would probably all be Dartmouth's focal point on offense if you trade them for Boudreaux, and they'd have a lot more counting stats.

So I think the flaw in your argument is the assumption that Boudreaux's counting stats tell you everything. They don't. Of course, the argument goes the other way too -- we don't know what really happens if the roles reverse. But my theory is that, if Boudreaux is really the best player in the league overall, then Dartmouth wouldn't have the record they have. So that's why I default to the top players on the best teams.

Of course, Dartmouth is still alive with a sweep, so maybe Boudreaux lifts his team to the top four anyway.


Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-27-17 10:08 PM - Post#223955    

  • SomeGuy Said:


So I think the flaw in your argument is the assumption that Boudreaux's counting stats tell you everything. They don't.






How many guys have led the league in scoring (he's a hair behind in second place) and rebounding (huge lead)?

However many exist, I'm guessing pretty much all of them got first-team All Ivy, and quite a few got POY.

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-27-17 11:40 PM - Post#223967    

Hasn't happened in recent memory. But last year, none of the top 3 scorers in the league made first team, nor did any of the top 4 rebounders. If the team doesn't win, it's going to be nearly impossible to win POY, and tough to make 1st team.
hoopla
Masters Student
Posts 486
02-28-17 07:20 AM - Post#223977    

If Evan doesn't make first team, they should stop doing these awards. According to both stats and the eye test, Evan is easily 1st team and in my opinion the MVP in the IL. If he is not considered POY than that tells me POY does not equate to MVP.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-28-17 07:41 AM - Post#223979    

To me, MVP actually goes the other way -- I would define that as having even more of a good team component. I always view MVP as most valuable to winning. A guy who scores 20 in a losing effort every night isn't ultimately helping his team win, and unless he is Andre Dawson, he shouldn't be MVP (for the record, I don't think Dawson should have won that year, either).
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-28-17 08:46 AM - Post#223981    

  • SomeGuy Said:
Hasn't happened in recent memory. But last year, none of the top 3 scorers in the league made first team, nor did any of the top 4 rebounders.



You're correct that leading a category doesn't give you a lock onto postseason honors. Dartmouth's Ian McGinnis led the NATION in rebounding one year, and didn't even get HM all-ivy.

That being said, leading the league in two major categories has got to count for something. I'm guessing Bill Bradley did it. I could probably guess a few others who either did it or came close. And the guys I'm thinking of are among the best the league has ever seen.

It's a shame that the team hasn't won more. But if Boudreaux ends up leading the league in both scoring and rebounding, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on the first team--even if Dartmouth drops the last two.

We will see how next weekend goes!
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-28-17 08:56 AM - Post#223984    

Yes, I suspect he gets 1st team this year. It's POY that I think is really unlikely. 1st team is tough for a soph on a bad team, but given the fact that the best teams either rely on freshmen or have a team concept that keeps the counting stats low, I think he gets there. I won't be surprised or outraged if he doesn't, but I think he does.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
02-28-17 09:25 AM - Post#223986    

I really hope Evan gets first team all ivy honors. He's more than earned that at the minimum. It would be a shame if in the next two years Dartmouth's record doesn't improve and Evan gets shut out of honors because he's on a losing team.

He's easily the league's top players and to get overlooked because of the teams record is a real risk. It's already hard enough to get talent to Hanover, getting snubbed won't help that cause. We really need this after a year where we've clearly taken a step backward. If Barry couldn't get a start this year under this coach it's likely Evan will be the last freshman ROY. That won't help get guys to Hanover. We need this award for Evan. We made him the focal point of everything we did, and if he can't get that honor at least, then why come to Dartmouth besides the incredible education if your a stud freshman?
"...no excuses - only results!”

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-28-17 09:44 AM - Post#223988    

While I've been very critical of the decision to fire Cormier and hire McLaughlin, I think you need to give the new coach a chance to bring in his own recruits. I don't entirely understand what he is trying to do differently scheme wise from the prior staff, but obviously he views how some guys (Cameron Smith and Johnson in particular) fit very differently. So he clearly has his stuff that he wants to run, and some of the guys don't fit. With the freshmen, these are still basically Cormier's recruits. So how they got used may turn out to be different from how guys McLaughlin has recruited all along end up getting used. Also, Boudreaux sucks up possessions. When he graduates, there will clearly be a moment to sell guys on the idea of coming in to be the focal point, and you will have precedent that Dartmouth will make a star kid the focal point in a way that no other school will.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-28-17 11:41 AM - Post#224007    

  • Go Green Said:
  • SomeGuy Said:


So I think the flaw in your argument is the assumption that Boudreaux's counting stats tell you everything. They don't.






How many guys have led the league in scoring (he's a hair behind in second place) and rebounding (huge lead)?






Anyone who cares, I looked it up guys who led the league in both scoring and rebounding in the same year. According to our media guide the Ivy didn't start keeping rebounding as an official stat among league leaders until the early 1960s. Whether or not guys from the 1950s or earlier did it is anyone's guess.

But Bradley did it. The late 1960s rebounding leaders are not listed for whatever reason, but I'd bet money McMillan did it as well.

It hasn't happened since.
EasyGreen1
Freshman
Posts 22
02-28-17 12:32 PM - Post#224012    

...
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
02-28-17 04:57 PM - Post#224040    

  • SomeGuy Said:
While I've been very critical of the decision to fire Cormier and hire McLaughlin, I think you need to give the new coach a chance to bring in his own recruits. I don't entirely understand what he is trying to do differently scheme wise from the prior staff, but obviously he views how some guys (Cameron Smith and Johnson in particular) fit very differently. So he clearly has his stuff that he wants to run, and some of the guys don't fit. With the freshmen, these are still basically Cormier's recruits. So how they got used may turn out to be different from how guys McLaughlin has recruited all along end up getting used. Also, Boudreaux sucks up possessions. When he graduates, there will clearly be a moment to sell guys on the idea of coming in to be the focal point, and you will have precedent that Dartmouth will make a star kid the focal point in a way that no other school will.



I think you might be right. I see it all across college basketball. Hire a new coach fire all the old staff build a program in your image. Unfortunately, the players from the old coach's recruitment are just caught in the middle i.e. Cameron Smith. Some of the freshman have done ok under McLaughlin but other I bet have been sorely disappointed in the outcome. My biggest fear was that Evan would leave. But that doesn't seem to be the case, but you never know. This season hasn't met anyone's expectations I'm sure. Hopefully next season will be better. I just hope given your theory we don't lose guys.
"...no excuses - only results!”

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
02-28-17 07:49 PM - Post#224068    

SG: "I don't entirely understand what he is trying to do differently scheme wise from the prior staff,..."

And that's the issue. Nobody can see any systematic difference in style of play from the previous regime that would obsolete the skill set of any returning player. What is their identity supposed to be other than a generic team striving for efficiency on both ends? When Earl took over Cornell, right or wrong you could see a change in their style of play (I obviously think very right, but YMMV). You can't even tell if this is defense-first or offense-first coaching (say, Huggins vs. Beilein for what that means).

I have no problem with system coaches, if they can communicate, teach, and then recruit to fit. Roy Williams has a system that he sticks to. Ed Cooley has a system and style. I get more worried when successful coaches seem to abandon their philosophy--Shaka Smart at Texas has me worried, for example.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-28-17 07:56 PM - Post#224069    

Just to speculate dangerously for a moment, I've always wondered just how much player opinions led to the firing of Cormier and hiring of McLaughlin. If the players were heavily involved in pushing for the ouster, and the subsequent hire, they may be more likely to stay.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 03:20 PM - Post#224144    

So to your point Go Green, since no one has apparently led the league in both scoring and rebounding since the 60's or early 70's, if Boudreaux were to accomplish this rare and somewhat amazing feat (we'll know after this weekend), the powers that be apparently will not elect Boudreaux POY because his team did not perform well enough? I think that is a travesty if the leader of a league in points, rebounds, and double doubles does not get POY. if this happens, it makes the Ivy POY a subjective, obviously not stats based award counter to every other D1 league in College Basketball (every POY for every Division 1 program that I can find is stats based). It appears to be a popularity contest for "best" player on a winning team, not actually the league's top player. It's absolutely not his fault his team isn't winning. He's the most consistent high level player in the Ivy League. My two cents.
Signed,
Biased Dartmouth Fan (hey, at least we can root for Boudreaux to get POY)
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-01-17 03:34 PM - Post#224146    

POY, ROY, All League teams, etc. are all subjective. It's a vote of the coaches and I suspect each has his own view on who's deserving, and why.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-01-17 04:02 PM - Post#224149    

To be fair, Evan may have the counting stats, but there are plenty of stats-based arguments for why he is NOT POY. It would be inaccurate to say that he is clearly the POY based on stats.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 04:28 PM - Post#224152    

How about most consistent, dominant, unstoppable player in the league then? No team has stopped him....
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-01-17 04:45 PM - Post#224154    

He's 21st in Win Shares. 8th in Hands on Buckets. 9th in PER. 6th in Floor Impact Counter. 35th in Points Per Shot. 54th in Pure Points Rating. He's 27th in fewest % of buckets assisted at the rim and 9th on percent of made jumpers that were assisted.

Now, he's 1st in Usage Rate. He's second in minutes. And that is obviously pushing up his points per game. He's 3rd in Total Rebounding Rate, but obviously first because he plays more minutes than those ahead of him.

In the era of advanced stats that can adjust for pace/minutes/efficiency, it's not enough to say points per game and rebounds per game. That and $2.75 will get you a ride on the NYC subway.

I think he'll get a long look for 1st Team, but he's not close to the POY conversation.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-01-17 04:58 PM - Post#224157    

  • mrjames Said:
In the era of advanced stats that can adjust for pace/minutes/efficiency, it's not enough to say points per game and rebounds per game. That and $2.75 will get you a ride on the NYC subway.



Not necessarily saying you're wrong.

But when the only other guys to do it in 50 years were Bradley and McMillan....
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 05:30 PM - Post#224164    

Agree with Go Green. First time in over 50 years. So we toss out his total stats 19.3 ppg LEADING THE LEAGUE IN CONFERENCE PLAY, 9.9 rebs/game LEADING THE LEAGUE IN CONFERENCE PLAY (nearly a double double in conference play), and 8 league double doubles and he's "not close" in POY discussions because others are more efficient? So who do you think should be POY?
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-01-17 05:54 PM - Post#224170    

One of the three Princeton players (Cook, Stephens, Weisz) will be POY.

For me, POY is Myles Stephens, though that's because I think it should be an offensive and defensive award.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 06:08 PM - Post#224176    

Because they are on a winning team? Their individual stats are not that impressive for your top 3. If any of these players were on another mediocre team with these same stats they would not be in the POY conversation.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-01-17 06:41 PM - Post#224183    

Myles Stephens has an ORAT of 107 on 22-23% usage while being a DPOY candidate. Cook is one of the most efficient players in the league at his usage rate and leads the league in win shares.

Weisz is probably the only one that doesn't have a solid statistical backing for his candidacy, but knowing how coaches view him, he's got a great chance to win it.

Winning the league helps one's cause but it isn't (and shouldn't be) everything. Not finishing near to or dead last, though, is a factor.

Evan is a really good, young player, but he's not a plus defender and he's not going to get credit for racking up counting stats on a bad team. Especially when other elite players in this league are playing fewer minutes or posting lower usage rates, because those teams have the luxury of doing so. It's tougher to be a key contributor on teams with better talent so players that stand out on those teams should and do get more credit than those that might stand out more on a relative basis on a bad team.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 06:54 PM - Post#224185    

Excellent points and a fair assessment. Thanks for the post!
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 06:58 PM - Post#224187    

One last point: I do think Boudreaux should get credit for counting stats on a poor team, just as he gets "credit" for his efficiency numbers, since he is the focal point of every team's defense(as evidenced by their double and triple teaming him nearly every game.)
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-01-17 07:24 PM - Post#224192    

What makes you think POY is stats based in other conferences? My other alma mater is in the Big Ten. The Big Ten POY has never come from a team with a losing conference record. In fact, there have only been a handful of instances where the winner wasn't on a team that finished top two. Just two years ago, a kid on a losing team led the conference in scoring. He didn't make first team. One other player averaged over 18 on a losing team and didn't even make 2nd team. This isn't just the Ivy -- this is every conference.

As for nobody stopping Boudreaux, the name of the game is winning. If I win 65-55, it doesn't matter to me if the opponent's leading scorer had 14 or 35. We stopped him enough.

A final point on this -- the efficiency numbers are actually such that, if everyone on a team plays at Boudreaux's efficiency level, the team will lose more often than not. There are 4 other guys on the team who are more efficient. There is an argument that, to win games, Boudreaux actually should be giving the ball up rather than fighting double teams on his way to an inefficient 18 and 10.
Cooper
Sophomore
Posts 143
03-01-17 07:41 PM - Post#224195    

Hello? Does anybody on this board pay attention to DEFENSE? It's not all about scoring points and grabbing rebounds. Wouldn't it make sense to include the defense played/not played by Evan Boudreaux to the conversation?
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-01-17 07:59 PM - Post#224201    

I believe what Mr James is saying is that if any of those 3 were on Dartmouth, they may be doing the same thing EB is doing.

Myles Stephens is probably the best 2 way player in the Ivy League.

I believe EB should be a lock for 1st team (and I think one of those 3 Princeton guys might get bumped to 2nd team to allow for it) but, as good as he is on the offensive end, he is a below average defender and that matters for POY.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-01-17 08:38 PM - Post#224205    

Rest assured there we multiple versions of POY, ROY and All-Ivy teams on these boards.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-01-17 10:54 PM - Post#224219    

I'll let Steve Donahue do the talking:

“Evan is a 20-and-10 guy in league play, and I don’t remember anyone ever doing that,” coach Steve Donahue said. “You just have to gameplan for him. The crazy part is his game against us last time was one of his average games.”


SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-01-17 11:00 PM - Post#224220    

Yes, and that was a game where Dartmouth won, so Penn certainly failed to stop him. I am curious, though, what the gameplan will really be this time around. Against Spieth, Penn actually seemed to go to a guard everybody else and let Spieth get his type of strategy at Brown, and it worked. I'm sure Penn will have some different looks to show him this weekend, but one might actually be not doubling him.

It also may help that the guy who normally would defend Evan presumably won't be sick this time.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-01-17 11:15 PM - Post#224222    

Pretty sure AJ will guard Evan. And then Max before Matt. I could be wrong...
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-02-17 03:44 AM - Post#224232    

Maybe this time. That wasn't the main matchup at Dartmouth. I think the issue is that Brodeur can't help outi In the middle if he has to guard Boudreaux. Same issue as Petrasek last week. Eventually, they had to put AJ on him anyway and play Rothschild in the middle, but that was only after nobody else could stop him.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-02-17 10:47 AM - Post#224264    

Petrasek is a much different player than Evan. Petrasek wanders to the outside and Evan is comfortable banging or playing the perimeter. Petrasek does not like playing with his back to the basket. You can get away with playing a smaller defender on Petrasek because he isn't very physical. Evan will destroy you if you don't have a big on him, and then he will destroy you anyway. Max and Aj are the only ones who have the size to check Boudreaux. Even then he has averaged 20 and 10 against us every game since his arrival in Hanover so it really hasn't mattered.
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-02-17 11:38 AM - Post#224273    

Little late to chime in here- but Boudreaux should certainly make 1st team, and while i think he is a POY candidate I dont think he will get it being a sophomore on a bad team.

Offensively he is a stud and I would challenge the idea that anyone on princeton could come into Dartmouth and put up similar numbers. We barely get the ball up the court. If he gives the ball up, like you suggest SomeGuy, we will lose by 20+ points. His PER is at 19.83, 7th in the league and well above what would be considered average at 15. As a total rating, it would suggest that even though he has high usage he has been playing pretty damn well. For the record, Stephens (18.72 (14th), and Weisz (22nd, 16.85) are trailing by a solid amount. TLDR; His efficiency numbers arent such that we would lose every game. In fact, if everyone on Dartmouth posted a 19.83 PER we would win the league, probably by a solid margin.

On to defense, I'd make the arguement that Boudreaux is a capable and solid defender in the post and a mediocre defender on the wing. He is averaging more steals per game than your defensive "stud" Stephens (.8 vs .7) while also not getting himself into foul trouble. Boudreaux routinely takes on the other teams 5 and has become a solid inside defender. He will never contribute blocks, and his footspeed might be a little slow to fully defend a drive from the wing, but to say that he doesnt contribute defensively to Dartmouth is absurd. He might be the most solid/consistent defender on the team. (I'll qualify that by also noting that we are arguably the worst defensive team in the league)

On to this weekend and the rare chance to say I'm keeping my hope alive.
Frodo
Pre-Frosh
Posts 4
03-02-17 06:03 PM - Post#224336    

Agree - little late to Chime in but...

I have read some interesting things in this thread. As far as POY or first team who knows. Hard to win POY on last place team. its a beauty contest. That being said, I know about Evan from AAU and Chicago days. Only reason I read Ivy League material. Saw this thread and shook my head. So...

For folks who speculate Boudreaux wouldn't put up numbers like this on a better team I have to disagree. He would, and be more efficient. I look back to his AAU team loaded with D1 players. He was playing a year up, lead them in scoring and rebounding and they won the National championship on ESPN. Point guard was Jevon Carter (WVU) forward Simmie Cobb (Indiana WR but D1 hoop prospect) can't remember all the names but 5 or 6 D1 player and Evan still dominated. Won MVP of NY2LA National tournament, again leading scorer and rebounder on a team that won that national tournament. Last year when he was unknown entering the Ivy his efficiency numbers were much better. Honestly, with better players around him he would score more easily as teams couldn't double and triple team him. No one in the ivy league has stopped him one on one for two years now (and save the team sport argument).
Rebounding - folks can speculate on who is better but that's all it is...speculation. When Boudreaux has faced Zena his numbers are still good. Boudreaux is averaging almost 10 a game this year in all play. Boudreaux's all around game is good enough that he stays on the floor and produces at a rate of almost 3 boards a game better than anyone else while getting the focus of attention from other teams. Zena doesn't, period.
Bottom line, Boudreaux would start and produce on any Ivy team at a high level. He would also produce on the bigger schools that recruited him (Iowa, I St, G tech, Butler, BC, etc).

Bottom line, there are not 5 better all around players in the Ivy league. Certainly none who produce night in and night out like Boudreaux.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-02-17 07:24 PM - Post#224343    

Frodo,

Tell me about his defensive exploits in AAU? You see in college, you actually have to play defense like most of the Princeton guys do.

And I don't think anyone said EB wouldn't produce on a better team. The point is, with better players, he doesn't need to take as many shots. He may be more efficient on another team. We saw POY Justin Sears last year or Harvard's guy from 2 years ago. Plenty of examples.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-02-17 08:08 PM - Post#224348    

The question is whether AJ is able to guard the middle and help with Evan. If he's guarding him, then there isn't anyone to help.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-02-17 08:43 PM - Post#224360    

Sorry I didn't use the term efficiency with enough specificity. I was referring to ORATs, not PER. You are correct that his PER is well above the winning threshold. ORAT is not.

I also don't mean to ignore defense -- just meeting hoops123 where his argument is. I think there are arguments that, even offensively, he shouldn't be first team. Defense is an easier argument yo make, but also much less quantifiable. We can quantify team defense, though, and there I think Brown is worse.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-02-17 08:52 PM - Post#224363    

A couple of caveats on Zena. The double team thing is true this year. Last year, when Zena was the focal point of Harvard's offense, he got simlar double team treatment.

Also, on the rebounding, note that this year, in game 2 Zena got 21% of available rebounds, while Boudreaux got only 11%. First game, both got about 25%. So Zena has outrebounded him this year (and they split the games last year, too.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-02-17 10:13 PM - Post#224372    

In conference his ORAT is 103.8, above avg.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-02-17 10:27 PM - Post#224375    

Maybe I should have used more quotes from the article....

"It was a surprise to many when the Red and Blue failed to win against the Big Green during a road trip earlier this season.

The game swayed back and forth, but in the end, Dartmouth forward Evan Boudreaux gave Penn more than it could handle, recording a double-double that included a game-sealing jumper inside two minutes. Also notable were his 12 rebounds, significantly more than Ryan Betley, who was Penn’s most effective rebounder with a mere five.

“Evan is a 20-and-10 guy in league play, and I don’t remember anyone ever doing that,” coach Steve Donahue said. “You just have to gameplan for him. The crazy part is his game against us last time was one of his average games.”


SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-03-17 07:45 AM - Post#224398    

Not sure who was surprised by the game at Hanover. It certainly scared the heck out of me. As does the game tonight.

The Penn game up there is one of the very few times Boudreaux has lifted his team to victory. If there were more games like that, I think a lot more people would view him as a POY candidate or a lock for 1st team.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-04-17 12:16 AM - Post#224618    

Are you serious? You've obviously not watched many Dartmouth games. Boudreaux has won many games in 2 years, including last second shots. PS, how'd you like him destroying your front court tonight? 16 and 12. Another double double. Better check his efficiency numbers to make sure he's a still a good player. If his efficiency numbers aren't good, maybe you didn't lose. Oh, and I don't think SD's game plan (that according to you doesn't happen) worked too well. Might want to adjust a few of your Evan beliefs.
Frodo
Pre-Frosh
Posts 4
03-04-17 01:37 AM - Post#224634    

Not sure what you are missing when watching Boudreaux. Tonight's game was pretty typical. We all know his usuall stats, pts and rebounds. If you watch the game you notice Boudreaux doing the little things. Shutting down the big men for Penn (combined for 15-8 in 42 minutes with Brodeur getting 4 fouls). Brodeur had 3 offensive boards. What the stats don't show is why. First two came when Boudreaux left him and blocked a shot. AJ got the O rebound, missed his shot and got his 2nd O rebound and missed again. His 3rd O board came again when Boudreaux helped on D (and this time he scored). Otherwise only 5 boards for brown big men against mostly Boudreaux in42 minutes.
On offense Dartmouth moved the ball well tonight. What your precious stats don't show is all of the wide open 3's D gets because Penn had to drop off and double/triple team boudreaux. In the second half the few times the double didn't come Boudreaux made jump hooks or 3 pt plays.
Final line 16 pts 12rb 2 blocked shots, 1 steal, 1 assist. But the 3 deflected passes, the one on one D in the paint, the attention he takes that makes the game easier for others...invaluable. Yes he made mistakes but was clearly the best player on the floor...again. Oh, and a win...nice.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-04-17 01:42 AM - Post#224635    

Congrats on a good win -- I was worried about the game, as I said, and it turns out I was right to be worried. Efficiency varies game to game, and Boudreaux was very efficient tonight. That is neither surprising nor at odds with anything I've said.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-04-17 02:37 AM - Post#224641    

Nice win for Dartmouth. Two weeks ago I never would have imagined Dartmouth winning this one. I hope they put everything up tonight. I want that 14-0 in case something weird happens in Philly. Actually, I'm dreading the third match with Harvard, if we meet in the finals. The first two games were tough enough.
Frodo
Pre-Frosh
Posts 4
03-04-17 02:43 AM - Post#224642    

Good win
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-04-17 10:29 AM - Post#224670    

I will say EB was better on defense last night than I have ever seen him. He did a great job on AJ (not as much on Max) and used his body on both ends to pretty much do whatever he wanted.

I think he is a stone cold lock for 1st team all Ivy and I would be shocked if it wasn't pretty close to unanimous. While I think he should be in the conversation for POY, I don't think he will be because guys like Steven Cook showed what he can do for a 13-0 team against the best competition last night and performances like that on an undefeated team are going to be rewarded more so than on a 4 win team.
GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts 805
03-05-17 07:41 AM - Post#224919    

I think the only way to have seriously garnered POY consideration would have been by beating Princeton. Quite the opposite was outcome.
"...no excuses - only results!”




Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.491 seconds.   Total Queries: 15   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 11:51 AM
Top