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Username Post: Current Status: All-Ivy, ROY, POY
IvyBballFan
Masters Student
Posts 479
02-24-17 02:01 PM - Post#223236    

Four games left. No telling what will change, but a few things probably will.
Each area is in alphabetical order. Who else deserves consideration?

First Team
AJ Brodeur
Steven Cook
Matt Morgan
Luke Petrasek
Steven Spieth

Second Team
Evan Boudreaux
Devin Cannady
Sam Downey
Miye Oni
Spencer Weisz

Honorable Mention
Bryce Aiken
Siyani Chambers
Alex Copeland
Matt Howard
Mike Smith
Myles Stephens

ROY- Brodeur

POY- no clear favorite, two or three could be co-POY

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
02-24-17 02:12 PM - Post#223237    

Tough to bump any of above. But, at least among Tigers, Myles Stephens has become our most flexible and consistent player. I would put him above, rather than below his other three teammates.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-24-17 02:29 PM - Post#223244    

My picks:

First Team
Evan Boudreaux
Steven Cook
Spencer Weisz
Luke Petrasek
Steven Spieth

Second Team
AJ Brodeur
Devin Cannady
Myles Stephens
Miye Oni
Matt Morgan
Bryce Aiken

Honorable Mention
Siyani Chambers
Alex Copeland
Matt Howard
Mike Smith
Sam Downey

ROY- Oni

POY- Cook or Weisz (whomever MH nominates)

COY: MH
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32682
02-24-17 02:36 PM - Post#223246    

It's tough not to put the entire Princeton team on that First team the way they have played this year...amazing given the injuries.
Columbia Alum
Junior
Posts 247
02-24-17 02:41 PM - Post#223249    

my picks

first team:
Petrasek
Boudreaux
Spieth
Cook
Morgan

Second Team:
Oni
Aiken
Weisz
Smith
Brodeur

HM:
Towns
Cannady
Hickman
Howard
Gettings

POY: Pick any of the first team, probably cook since Princeton is winning and the others aren't in the top 3

ROY: Pick any of the second team (except weisz)

This year is harder than usual since so many first years are carrying the load for most teams.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-24-17 02:58 PM - Post#223251    

I think Boudreaux/Brodeur 1st team comes down to their HTH on March 3 at the Palestra. If Brodeur puts Penn into 4th and Penn beats Dartmouth in that game, Brodeur likely gets the nod for 1st team. Oni could play his way onto this team too if they win out.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-24-17 03:18 PM - Post#223253    

Boudreaux is first team no matter what happens HTH. We just throw out a season full of statistics? Why not use the last HTH then? Boudreaux's leading league (Brodeur) in rebounding (by a lot) and is third in scoring in league and leading Brodeur in scoring by a lot. Scored in double figures 22 out of 23 games. 12 double doubles. Nearly averaging a double double for the season. Are you serious?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
02-24-17 04:50 PM - Post#223276    

Thanks for the kind words. But, that might be like the old Sports Illustrated cover photo jinx.

Plus, there is still a lot of bball to be played ... before the end of just the regular season. I don't want my guys to read some of the above and get fat heads.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-24-17 07:06 PM - Post#223316    

  • hoops123 Said:
Boudreaux is first team no matter what happens HTH. We just throw out a season full of statistics? Why not use the last HTH then? Boudreaux's leading league (Brodeur) in rebounding (by a lot) and is third in scoring in league and leading Brodeur in scoring by a lot. Scored in double figures 22 out of 23 games. 12 double doubles. Nearly averaging a double double for the season. Are you serious?



Take some prozac big boy. I'm the one who switched EB to 1st team and AJ to 2nd team from the original post.

mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-24-17 07:24 PM - Post#223319    

Stephens, Weisz and Cook all for first team and one of those three for POY unless things go crazy sideways for Princeton over the next eight days. Spieth as a deserving senior should get a 1st team nod. After that, it's going to get split fast.

ROY would be Oni or Aiken today, but probably whichever of those two and Brodeur and Smith plays best down the stretch.

DPOY is all over the map right now.

COY is like POY - Princeton unless stuff goes sideways for it.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-24-17 08:50 PM - Post#223360    

I can't imagine the case for Aiken over Oni. Two great players but only one of them is an impact two way player right now.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
02-24-17 10:08 PM - Post#223436    

Aiken is pretty high impact. When he's on the court he gobbles up possessions, and somehow he's coming out with decent efficiency, despite my unfavorable eye test on some of his decisions.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
02-24-17 10:21 PM - Post#223442    

Weisz and Cook have each carried the team at times. Weisz is a coach on the floor. The streak started at Bucknell when Stephens became a starter. If there is a better defender in the Ivy League I have not seen him.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-24-17 10:33 PM - Post#223447    

  • SRP Said:
Aiken is pretty high impact. When he's on the court he gobbles up possessions, and somehow he's coming out with decent efficiency, despite my unfavorable eye test on some of his decisions.



I didn't say he wasn't high impact....I said Oni is high impact on BOTH ends of the floor. I would think the two way player is more valuable than a high volume scorer.

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
02-24-17 10:40 PM - Post#223448    

I guess my Yale sample is too small. I didn't see great defensive impact from Oni on very many possessions.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
02-24-17 11:51 PM - Post#223460    

I think Cook and Weisz are the biggest locks for first team All-Ivy, assuming Princeton doesn't go and somehow lose the next 3. I know the straight scoring stats are more impressive for guys on teams that haven't been winning, but I think the coaches will acknowledge that these are the best players on the best team. After that, it is tougher to predict.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-25-17 12:12 AM - Post#223465    

  • SRP Said:
I guess my Yale sample is too small. I didn't see great defensive impact from Oni on very many possessions.



Oni is 10th in the league in scoring,5th in rebounding, 5th in blocked shots 10th in assists and has made more 3pters at a higher percentage than Aiken. Really the only category Aiken leads Oni is FT shooting.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
02-25-17 01:45 AM - Post#223475    

Aiken just blew up on Oni tonight.
Forgot the key stat - winning! Aiken led Harvard past Yale - twice!

hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
02-25-17 02:32 AM - Post#223477    

Ok then you'll handle the Viagra for your strong beliefs re hth and Brodeur then. I'm responding to your idiotic post that HTH determines who makes first team all ivy. Nothing changed on your post, and in case you're finding yourself flattered, I don't go back and read your old posts that you may have edited.
digamma
Masters Student
Posts 466
02-25-17 08:57 AM - Post#223482    

  • PennFan10 Said:
  • SRP Said:
I guess my Yale sample is too small. I didn't see great defensive impact from Oni on very many possessions.



Oni is 10th in the league in scoring,5th in rebounding, 5th in blocked shots 10th in assists and has made more 3pters at a higher percentage than Aiken. Really the only category Aiken leads Oni is FT shooting.



Of course if we limit it to only conference games, Aiken pulls ahead in scoring, 3 point shooting, steals and assists. I know that's the classic debate of full season versus Ivy only.

Hard to argue though that Aiken hasn't been a first team talent over the Ivy portion of the season, and particularly over the last half.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
02-25-17 09:11 AM - Post#223484    

Aiken has had the best offensive February of pretty much any player in the league, and as the best rookie on a top two team, he's probably got the inside track now.

My little straw poll around the league got the same comment of "thought it was Oni and Brodeur," and then a follow up that either Aiken had nipped them both or that they were still sticking Oni, but barely over Aiken.

Don't think the award is locked down yet, but given that Oni vs. Aiken was the dominant conversation and Aiken just outshone Oni again in a battle between the two teams, I think Oni (and Brodeur and Smith) have a lot of work to do now to catch Aiken.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-25-17 03:14 PM - Post#223539    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
Aiken just blew up on Oni tonight.
Forgot the key stat - winning! Aiken led Harvard past Yale - twice!




That's a lot easier to say after the game. I posted my thoughts before the game. And Aiken is a high volume shooter. Oni is a system shooter big difference. Before last night I am pretty confident Oni gets the nod. After last night I agree with Mr James that probably a slight nod to Aiken. Oni will have to play his way into it these last three. Two great players with very different games and impact on their teams. It's a two horse race between those two now.

PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-25-17 03:22 PM - Post#223540    

  • hoops123 Said:
Ok then you'll handle the Viagra for your strong beliefs re hth and Brodeur then. I'm responding to your idiotic post that HTH determines who makes first team all ivy. Nothing changed on your post, and in case you're finding yourself flattered, I don't go back and read your old posts that you may have edited.



To think 1st team selections aren't affected by winning (and differentiated by HTH) is what's idiotic. Mr James said as much. Princeton is going to have 2-3 1st teamers if they go 14-0. That's the only thing that's a lock. And then Spieth is likely the next pick. So, while I think EB should be a lock for 1st team, there is going to be a war for the 5th spot with the likes of Aiken, Oni, Petrasek, Brodeur/Betley, etc for that last spot. And if Penn beats Dartmouth and wins out to finish 3rd, there will be some voters who look at a Penn star for 1st team too.

I think 12-2/11-3 Harvard is going to be tough to leave off the 1st team voting too.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
02-25-17 03:45 PM - Post#223544    

Every time I see Morgan play he puts up an All-Ivy performance. Just saying.

Boudreax will make the team ahead of Brodeur. Evan has been better than AJ in conference play. AJ has a better shot to win ROY if he finishes hot then getting on 1st team.


PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
02-25-17 03:54 PM - Post#223545    

I agree with all this.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 11:34 AM - Post#224680    

ROY update:

Aiken at Princeton: 1-10 (0-7 from 3), 2pts, 31 minutes, 5 TO in close loss.

Oni had 12 pts, 5 reb, 6 assists, 1 blk and 1 steal in 27 min in a cruise vs Cornell
Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts 409
Tiger81
03-04-17 12:06 PM - Post#224687    

Steven Cook sure looked like the POY last night and was the best player on the court in a game between the two most talented teams in the league.

Aiken vs. Princeton this year took a lot of bad shots out of the flow of Harvard's offense. Although I know he has put together some impressive stats, last night Seth Towns had the best game I have seen against the Tigers, regardless of class year.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-04-17 12:15 PM - Post#224688    

Aiken ROY? Lots of body, great legs good color, full of potential. But, this whine needs to be put back on the shelf to mature for another year.

POY? Cook, the leader in a cast of superlatives that have great futures.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-04-17 12:39 PM - Post#224694    

Since there are so many close candidates, I'm starting to think final impressions in 'important' games will influence things.

POY: Sr. Cook earned it last night. Even if Dartmouth somehow beats Princeton tonight and makes the tournament, Soph. Boudreaux is likely runner up. Both solidified their chances last night.

ROY: Towns was amazing last night, and has now averaged over 20 pts over his last 5 games. Oni/Towns/Aiken/Betley are nos 8/9/10/13 for in-conference scoring. Brodeur has dropped to 19th. There are pros and cons for each, mostly related to inconsistency (Aiken/Oni) and downward trend (Brodeur). Towns and Betley are the most impressive candidates over the final 4 weekends. Fact that Betley didn't play in 10 of Penn's games would likely eliminate him. Tough call.

DOY: Wish Zena played more and Bruner is likely to win this before it's through. Zena gets caught up on switches but he has handled opponents like Downey and Brodeur with no help unlike any other center in this league. Leaning towards Princeton's Stephens, if not Princeton's entire starting 5+Bell.




PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 01:06 PM - Post#224703    

ROY:Towns hasn't been consistent enough for ROY this year. Oni is the frontrunner in my book. Night in and night out he has impacted the floor on both ends. Aiken fell back a bit and Betley is a distant 4th.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 01:07 PM - Post#224704    

If Dartmouth wins tonight and makes the tourney, it will be hard not to take a long look at Boudreax as POY. I think he is back in the conversation though my money is still on whichever of the 3 Princeton players Mitch nominates.
IvyBballFan
Masters Student
Posts 479
03-05-17 08:26 PM - Post#225137    

The way it looks now (all in alpha order)?

Boudreaux
Cannady
Cook
Oni
Spieth

Brodeur
Downey
Howard, M
Morgan
Petrasek
Stephens
Weisz
(I know there are seven on 2nd team, but all deserve it)

HM
Aiken
Chambers
Gettings (most improved player)
Towns

ROY- Oni
co-POY- Cook and Weisz (co-leaders of 14-0 team that lost two starters by mid-season)
DPOY- Boudreaux (did it all)
COY- Henderson (14-0 losing two starters by mid-season)

mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-05-17 08:44 PM - Post#225141    

Boudreaux as DPOY????? Weisz and Stephens both on 2nd team???? Are you drunk?
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-05-17 10:33 PM - Post#225174    

Hard to distinguish inebriation from trolling sometimes.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-05-17 10:35 PM - Post#225175    

Well, you missed the oddest thing -- Weisz as co-POY without making 1st team. That would really be something.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-05-17 10:46 PM - Post#225177    

I got caught up on Boudreaux as DPOY. Couldn't get past that. That's just... yikes.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-05-17 11:04 PM - Post#225183    

I actually laughed out loud when I saw DPOY-EB.

What's even more funny is I saw the forum front page and the "mrjames" was the last one to post. My phone opened immediately to the list of players for all league and I read it, assuming it was mrjames projections. Then I got to DPOY and laughed thinking that he was, in fact, somewhere intoxicated and messing with us.

Funny stuff. I do think there is some validity to co-poy of Cook and Weisz. Let's Mitch off the hook a little.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-06-17 10:56 AM - Post#225222    

My 1st team : Cook, Weisz, Boudreaux, Spieth, Morgan

There are plenty of candidates for 2nd team this year. I'll go with Cannady, Chambers, Petrasek, Howard, Oni.

PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-06-17 12:42 PM - Post#225239    

I would project:

1st:
Cook
Weisz
Spieth
Boudreaux
Oni/Stephens

2nd:
Oni/Stephens
Aikens
Howard
Morgan
Petrasek
Chambers

POY:
Cook/Weisz

ROY: Oni

COY: MH

Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-06-17 01:03 PM - Post#225242    


Are they announcing honors today, or waiting until after the tournament?
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-06-17 03:01 PM - Post#225260    

1st Team -- Cook, Spieth, Weisz, Boudreaux, Stephens/Morgan

2nd Team -- Morgan/Stephens, Petrasek, Chambers, Cannady, Howard

POY - Cook

ROY - Oni/Aikens

DPY - Stephens

COY - Henderson
iabhoops88
Sophomore
Posts 107
03-06-17 08:06 PM - Post#225315    


1st team: Cannady/Stephens, Chambers, Cook, Spieth, Petrasek.
2nd team: Boudreaux, Downey, Howard, Morgan, Stephens/Cannady
HM: Aiken, Betley, Brodeur, Oni, Towns

PoY - Cook
RoY - Oni
DPoY - Stephens
CoY - Henderson



penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-06-17 08:40 PM - Post#225318    

Not really sure any Quaker is deserving of 1st or 2nd team this year.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-06-17 09:22 PM - Post#225325    

  • Go Green Said:

Are they announcing honors today, or waiting until after the tournament?




I'm announcing today! I didn't want to wait til after the tournament.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-06-17 09:45 PM - Post#225329    

No Weisz?

First team: Weisz, Cook, Spieth, Stephens, Chambers

Second team: Boudreaux, Petrasek, Morgan, Downey, Cannady, Howard

HM: Dallier, Blackmon, Oni, Aiken

POY: Weisz

DPOY: Stephens

ROY: Aiken

COY: Henderson
iabhoops88
Sophomore
Posts 107
03-06-17 10:23 PM - Post#225338    

Weisz is deserving - probably 2nd team, but I had him crowded out by his three teammates. My HM team is purposefully all freshmen, just because I could.

If, as others have done, I can have six on 2nd team, I would add Weisz and drop Betley.

I gave more weight to conference play than out-of-conference.
SecS3
Junior
Posts 246
03-06-17 10:50 PM - Post#225342    

Hard to argue with these choices. Anyone that doesn't even have Weisz as HM must be watching something other than Ivy basketball.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-06-17 10:54 PM - Post#225343    

  • iabhoops88 Said:


I gave more weight to conference play than out-of-conference.



I had assumed this was ONLY about conference play.

Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-07-17 08:49 AM - Post#225359    

  • penn nation Said:
Not really sure any Quaker is deserving of 1st or 2nd team this year.



Shouldn't matter. They are playing the tournament at the Palestra this weekend.

Penn could take five random guys from the student directory, throw them out there on Saturday against Princeton, and it will be anyone's game given Penn's home court advantage.



palestra38
Professor
Posts 32682
03-07-17 10:19 AM - Post#225370    

It's not as though there was much of a home court advantage this year. Penn lost to Princeton, Brown, Yale and Dartmouth. On the road they lost to Princeton, Harvard, Columbia and Dartmouth. And few students come to the games these days, anyway and they're on break now in any event.

This isn't 1979 (and I say that with some regret, both for Penn and personally).
whitakk
Masters Student
Posts 523
03-07-17 10:20 AM - Post#225371    

Here's our picks: http://www.nycbuckets.com/2017/03/big-apple-buc ket...
Columbia Alum
Junior
Posts 247
03-07-17 10:43 AM - Post#225376    

I think Petrasek makes a good case for first team, and definitely should not be left out of at least 2nd team.

Mike Smith also makes a good case for second team and deserves at least HM. The rest of the Columbia team did not stand out in ivy play, these two carried the load most of the season.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-07-17 06:11 PM - Post#225461    

My guesses:

COY - Mitch
DPOY - Stephens
POY - Weisz
ROY - Aiken

1st Team - Cook, Weisz, Stephens, Spieth
1st Team/2nd Team Battle: Aiken, Boudreaux
2nd Team - Chambers, Oni, Cannady, Morgan, Petrasek
HM - Howard, Brodeur, Downey, Copeland
Jake Wilson
Freshman
Posts 15
03-07-17 07:36 PM - Post#225471    

If I still did this, it would look like this:

POY: Stephens, Princeton
ROY: Towns, Harvard
DPOY: Stephens, Princeton
COY: Henderson, Princeton

First Team
Boudreaux, Dartmouth
Cannady, Princeton
Cook, Princeton
Spieth, Brown
Stephens, Princeton

Second Team
Chambers, Harvard
Howard, Penn
Morgan, Cornell
Petrasek, Columbia
Weisz, Princeton

Honorable Mention All-Ivy
Brodeur, Penn
Downey, Yale
Edosomwan, Harvard
Oni, Yale
Towns, Harvard

All-Rookie Team
Towns, Harvard
Brodeur, Penn
Aiken, Harvard
Oni, Yale
Betley, Penn
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-07-17 09:21 PM - Post#225489    

And my vote for Most Understanding Wife of the Ivy League goes to Mrs. Mike James.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-07-17 09:27 PM - Post#225492    

Ha. That's a fact. I try to help, but she is the best. I'm holding sleeping child number two as we speak. Committed to learning names once the season ends.
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts 1169
03-07-17 09:45 PM - Post#225496    

  • Jake Wilson Said:
If I still did this, it would look like this:




Welcome back, Jake. Where you been?

Jake Wilson
Freshman
Posts 15
03-07-17 09:48 PM - Post#225497    

  • T.P.F.K.A.D.W. Said:
Welcome back, Jake. Where you been?



Disneyland.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-07-17 09:54 PM - Post#225498    

At times, this board resembles Fantasyland.

And yes, always a pleasure to read what you write.

  • Jake Wilson Said:
  • T.P.F.K.A.D.W. Said:
Welcome back, Jake. Where you been?



Disneyland.



palestra38
Professor
Posts 32682
03-07-17 11:27 PM - Post#225504    

I think it's great that the Board identifies you as a freshman.

Hope you stick around.
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3614
Mike Porter
03-08-17 03:08 AM - Post#225517    

  • Jake Wilson Said:
  • T.P.F.K.A.D.W. Said:
Welcome back, Jake. Where you been?



Disneyland.



Haha, great to see you back on the board again Jake!

What was your favorite ride?
Jake Wilson
Freshman
Posts 15
03-08-17 10:49 AM - Post#225552    

  • Mike Porter Said:
Haha, great to see you back on the board again Jake!

What was your favorite ride?



Radiator Springs Racers.

It was keep doing this or stay married and have a family. I was burned out, disillusioned by college athletics in general, and upset by a few things in Ivy hoops specifically. So I walked away.

And I really didn't watch any Ivy hoops save a few NCAA Tournament games for about six years, as I increasingly got into European soccer. Then my parents moved to the East Side of Providence and got Brown season tickets, and I joined them for some games. Between that and not being able to look away from the car crash that was the end of the Jerome Allen Era at Penn, Ivy basketball crept back into my consciousness.

It was an alien landscape from the league I had last followed in 2008. Ivy teams won regularly in the NCAA Tournament. Recruiting was up dramatically across the league. The sport seemed to be real priority at all eight schools. It was basically what I dreamed of back in the day -- except for the Ivy tourney, of course.

This season I checked in nearly daily with the league from the beginning of the season through the start of the league. I subscribed to the ILDN. (I would have killed to have something like that 15 years ago...) I took a friend up on an offer of a spare ticket to Princeton-Harvard at Lavietes and really enjoyed it.

This has been a fun season. From Princeton emerging as a 14-0 champion in a hyper-competitive league, to a freshman-laden Harvard team improving over the course of the season (and freshmen leading the way at Yale, Penn, and Columbia, too), to the wild battle for the final Ivy tourney spot, I got sucked back in to some extent. I'm not about to start writing daily analytical pieces about the league again, but it has my attention.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-08-17 01:29 PM - Post#225599    

Welcome back Jake. I think I will work out in my old ivybasketball.com t-shirt to celebrate.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 02:13 PM - Post#225608    

Awards will be announced at 3pm today. Bumping my picks from yesterday.

  • Quote:
My guesses:

COY - Mitch
DPOY - Stephens
POY - Weisz
ROY - Aiken

1st Team - Cook, Weisz, Stephens, Spieth
1st Team/2nd Team Battle: Aiken, Boudreaux
2nd Team - Chambers, Oni, Cannady, Morgan, Petrasek
HM - Howard, Brodeur, Downey, Copeland



westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
03-08-17 02:18 PM - Post#225612    

  • mrjames Said:
Awards will be announced at 3pm today. Bumping my picks from yesterday.

  • Quote:
My guesses:

COY - Mitch
DPOY - Stephens
POY - Weisz
ROY - Aiken

1st Team - Cook, Weisz, Stephens, Spieth
1st Team/2nd Team Battle: Aiken, Boudreaux
2nd Team - Chambers, Oni, Cannady, Morgan, Petrasek
HM - Howard, Brodeur, Downey, Copeland






Those look like pretty good guesses. I'd put Boudreaux on the first team. Bump Aiken down to HM. And have Oni as ROY.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 02:45 PM - Post#225620    

Lots of people selling Aiken short...
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-08-17 03:19 PM - Post#225626    

No one is "selling Aiken short..". He is in the conversation and would not be a surprise winner. I think everyone recognizes its Aiken/Oni and the others. My preference is Oni since he is more of a two way player. After all, Aiken was on the bench for Penn's last play against Harvard last week. That tells you what Amaker thinks of him in crunch time on the defensive end.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-08-17 03:20 PM - Post#225627    

I think Aiken is the bee's knees but traditionally hasn't the vote skewed towards upperclassmen?

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-08-17 03:34 PM - Post#225629    

Too many good players. Too few spots. Too few bids.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 03:43 PM - Post#225633    

We'll see
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-08-17 03:57 PM - Post#225640    

  • Tiger69 Said:
Too many good players. Too few spots.



Football solves this issue by naming a 14 or 15-player "first team" on both sides of the ball.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 04:01 PM - Post#225642    

Here you go:

Player of the Year
Spencer Weisz, Princeton (Sr., F – Florham Park, N.J.)

Rookie of the Year
Bryce Aiken, Harvard (Fr., G – Randolph, N.J.)

Defensive Player of the Year
*Myles Stephens, Princeton (So., G – Lawrenceville, N.J.)

Coach of the Year
*Mitch Henderson, Princeton

First Team^
Bryce Aiken, Harvard (Fr., G – Randolph, N.J.)
Siyani Chambers, Harvard (Sr., G – Golden Valley, Minn.)
*Steven Cook, Princeton (Sr., F – Winnetka, Ill.)
Steven Spieth, Brown (Sr., F – Dallas, Texas)
Myles Stephens, Princeton (So., G – Lawrenceville, N.J.)
*Spencer Weisz, Princeton (Sr., F – Florham Park, N.J.)

Second Team
Evan Boudreaux, Dartmouth (So., F – Lake Forest, Ill.)
AJ Brodeur, Penn (Fr., F – Northborough, Mass.)
Matt Morgan, Cornell (So., G – Concord, N.C.)
Miye Oni, Yale (Fr., G – Porter Ranch, Calif.)
Luke Petrasek, Columbia (Sr., F – East Northport, N.Y.)

Honorable Mention
Devin Cannady, Princeton (So., G – Mishawaka, Ind.)
Sam Downey, Yale (Sr., F – Lake Forest, Ill.)
Matt Howard, Penn (Sr., G - Columbia, S.C.)
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-08-17 04:17 PM - Post#225652    


Hopefully Boudreaux takes the slight personally and comes in with a big chip on his shoulder the next two years.


SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 04:25 PM - Post#225655    

or he transfers out...

I think its solidly disrespectful that 6 made 1st team, and one of them was Aiken. Clearly in this case, team quality was a determining factor on an individual award.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-08-17 04:33 PM - Post#225657    

SDS, I wouldn't worry about that happening in response to a sleight for a meaningless award. Boudreaux seems to have a good head on his shoulders -- even if he appears to be losing a little hair.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 04:40 PM - Post#225660    

It's TRASH that the IVY coaches chose Aiken, Chambers, and Stephens ahead of Boudreaux on First Team. This clearly isn't a best player ranking type award. This is a clubby best players on the top teams award. Princeton three players, Harvard two on First Team? Aikens numbers? 14 pts/g on 39.1% shooting? 2.3 boards and 2.9 assists? Started 8 games? You have to be kidding me. Boudreaux had far better numbers than Aiken his freshman year and was on Second Team. These awards are a JOKE. Boudreaux's numbers are ahead of nearly everyone on the First Team. In multiple categories. Averaged a Double Double in the league. 1st in rebounding, 2nd in scoring in conference and out of conference. No one else close to that. So the awards are now exposed for what they are: a clubby "supposed" best players on the top teams that win as chosen by the coaches awards. To conclude, it appears based on these results that no matter what Boudreaux did numbers wise, he wasn't making first team because Dartmouth didn't win. And that is BS.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-08-17 04:47 PM - Post#225661    

You are absolutely correct! It is an OUTRAGE!

If I were him, I wouldn't take this lying down. I would transfer to Princeton immediately!
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 04:48 PM - Post#225662    

Lets pump the brakes here. While I wont dispute that the HYP seems to have an advantage here, they also made the tournament this year.

The disparity between Boudreaux's Freshman year placement and this years placement is definitely of note.

Boudreaux has a distinct disadvantage playing for Dartmouth and the results of awards like this will certainly alter the perception of potential recruits (if there is even a perception to alter at this point).

I wouldn't fault him for trying to go somewhere that wins, where he would also be recognized for his ability. While that would suck for me as a Dartmouth fan, I think i'm more upset about what this means for Dartmouth basketball as a whole.

Also re: his tweet. It's not wrong...

TLDR; Dartmouth Sucks, Boudreaux is great. Why didnt he get 1st team last year? This snub will set Dartmouth back even further.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 04:55 PM - Post#225665    

While there are definite biases baked into these awards and winning is one of them, winning doesn't determine everything. Steven Spieth made 1st team despite the same 4-10 Ivy record.

Spieth is a senior and being a senior helps - we can argue whether it should or not. I do want to defend the coaches though. Numbers are important. And there certainly can be good players on bad teams. Boudreaux's advanced metrics fell year over year in key categories including win shares (3.81 down to 2.07), offensive rating (107 to 97) and PER (22 to 19). He was 2nd team last year. His team was better last year. His advanced metrics were better last year.

It is possible to be on a bad team in make first team, but you need to be seen as a player that isn't benefiting from picking up counting stats because few others on your team can. The advanced stats do a nice job of sniffing that out, and they weren't favorable to Evan this year versus his freshman campaign. Coaches can recognize this. And they are a lot closer to this stuff than any of us.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-08-17 04:56 PM - Post#225666    

If it makes you and Evan feel better, many of us on this forum had him on our first team.

He'll have 2 more years to prove the haters wrong.

penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-08-17 04:58 PM - Post#225668    

A head scratcher that he and AJ share equal billing since at least in Ivy play there was a world of difference between the two
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 05:01 PM - Post#225671    

If his freshman year was better, and both years were better than Aiken, it seems time to solve for x.

Looks like it comes down to winning and name recognition.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-08-17 05:02 PM - Post#225672    

Meaningless distinction: 1st vs 2nd team
Seems to me that team success is a key element and they ran out of room and so chose Spieth (Sr) over Boudreaux (So). I had expected them both to make it.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 05:06 PM - Post#225673    

I think you are giving the coaches way too much credit here. That means they blew it on Boudreaux last year then. Spieth in a tie this year? C'mon. He was a flat out 1st teamer along with Boudreaux. Boudreaux on 2nd team two years in a row AVERAGING A DOUBLE DOUBLE IN CONFERENCE PLAY BOTH YEARS? Aiken on the team is the joke of jokes. I reiterate: I believe that no matter what Boudreaux's numbers were this year, even with better/higher efficiency, he wasn't making first team. And that's a joke. The awards are a joke.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 05:10 PM - Post#225676    

I don't see where I said that both years were better than Aiken.

Aiken shot just over 50 eFG% on 28% USG and Shots with an assist rate over 20%. Both players had really nice offensive years as freshmen. Both players aren't highly regarded defensively. I do think the reason why Aiken as a freshman got 1st Team and Boudreaux as a freshman got 2nd Team has to do both with there being a bit of a gap beyond Princeton's three this year than there was beyond Yale's three last year and winning played a role for sure.
Frodo
Pre-Frosh
Posts 4
03-08-17 05:13 PM - Post#225679    

I don't think the coaches look at advanced metrics when picking these teams. Advanced metrics are for geeks like us. Last year or this year Boudreaux not making the 1st team is a joke. Like I stated on another thread, its a beauty contest. But to put Aiken on there, even forgetting he is a freshman, over Boudreaux? Harvard coach must be making calls to other coaches. Nothing he showed this year deserves first team, maybe not even 2nd team. It was a close call on ROY.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
03-08-17 05:21 PM - Post#225681    

Thrilling and entirely fair that Weisz and Cook were unanimous choices. I would be just as happy if Cook was POY, but Spencer Weisz is the Coach On The Floor with more minutes played than anyone and an unprecedented stat line. The contributions of Myles Stephens can't be overstated. Congrats to all. Leaving Boudreaux off the first team is more than a little mystifying.....
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-08-17 05:25 PM - Post#225683    

I have to agree the only "stunner" in here is Aiken over EB. As I mentioned before Aiken wasn't even on the floor during the final possession for Harvard last Saturday vs Penn and doesn't start for Harvard. If he isn't in Amakers top 5...
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-08-17 05:41 PM - Post#225688    

No dog in this fight. But, from my skewed view, Aiken fell somewhat short of his high billing against Princeton. He was outstanding, but still vulnerable to occasional freshmen behavior. Siyani, I recall, had to settle him down a couple of times after, what Aiken felt, were bad calls. He also took at least a couple of ill advised shots that in a tight game might have been the difference.

EB always excels and is always under control of himself. If I had to choose one or the other, I would be inclined toward EB.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 05:43 PM - Post#225689    

Basic metrics: Boudreaux 954 points and 511 rebounds in 54 games. Heading for a 2000+ point career (assuming his scoring average goes up slightly over last two years) and 1000+ rebound career. 25 career double doubles through his sophomore season. Ivy Coaches: Anyone else on your "first team" got numbers like that? Think any of your "first team" underclassmen are heading in that direction? The answer is a resounding NO...
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-08-17 05:57 PM - Post#225693    

You're preaching to the converted although by changing the metrics there are others such as AJ whose performance also looks much better (setting an all time Quaker blocks record in his freshman campaign for example)
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 06:06 PM - Post#225696    

There is way more to basketball than those counting stats. Both from a metrics perspective and from a qualitative perspective.

I don't think the coaches were unaware of those numbers. That should tell you something.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 06:35 PM - Post#225700    

I'm well aware of that, thank you. What it tells me is that this really is a beauty contest for players on winning teams. Aiken is proof of that. 3 Princetons, two Harvards, and they threw senior Spieth a bone calling it a "tie". And I actually don't think the coaches give a crap about stats, as if they did, Aiken would not be on the team. And I'll say it again: if Boudreaux had high efficiency numbers, led the league in scoring and rebounding, played better defense (he is a very good defender for a forward forced to play center) he still would not be on the first team because Dartmouth did not win. Period.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-08-17 06:36 PM - Post#225701    

So here's we're I'm in a quandry.

The advanced season metrics show Brodeur slightly better than Boudreaux. I think very highly about Brodeur and of advanced metrics. I also think very highly of Aiken - anyone can look up my posts.

However I agree with the Dartmouth posters that Boudreaux had a better season and outplayed Brodeur twice. And I'd put him on the 1st team over Aiken. Boudreaux's super high 30% usage rate (and he's by no means a ball hog) and higher mpg has to be accounted for.

penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-08-17 06:40 PM - Post#225702    

It's hard to argue that AJ had a better Ivy season than Boudreaux no matter what metrics you use.

But if you change the criteria to the entire season (which is not what this list is about), then there's much less daylight between the two.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-08-17 06:42 PM - Post#225704    

Yeah, saying the coaches used advance metrics to put Aiken ahead of EB strikes me as disingenuous.

There isn't really a good reason, other than team winning % to put Aiken on the 1st team ahead of EB. I am with hoops123 on this. This was a big miss by the coaches.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-08-17 07:05 PM - Post#225709    

i honestly don't understand how obtuse you all are here. The advanced metrics are perfectly GREAT reasons to put Aiken above Boudreaux. That doesn't mean you are an genius if you prefer Boudreaux over Aiken on the 1st team.

But if you are crapping on the advanced metrics to make that case, then yeah, maybe you are an genius.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-08-17 07:12 PM - Post#225710    

The advanced metrics would be a perfectly GREAT reason to put Matt Howard on the 1st team. So why not do that?

Even though Matt Howard's advanced metrics are BETTER than Aiken's, Matt didn't even get on 2nd team.

SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 07:15 PM - Post#225711    

If that isn't sarcasm then I'm the most obtuse person to ever live.

Aiken started 8 games(!!!!) and put up solid, but not crazy stats. He averaged less than 3 assists a game as a backup PG on a team loaded with weapons. He shouldn't even be ROY.

It doesn't make you a genius to prefer Boudreaux, it makes you logical and correct.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-08-17 07:29 PM - Post#225716    

I missed on Aiken (though I'll pat myself on the back by pointing out that I nailed the other 5 first teamers and all the awards). Historically, freshmen just don't make first team. But the issue with Harvard is this -- why exactly do they win? The whole goal is winning games. Somebody on that team is playing at an all-Ivy level if you clearly have the 2nd best team in the league. On a team that starts 4 freshmen, you have to acknowledge that a freshman might be playing at an All-Ivy level.

So i am actually more surprised by Aiken on 1st team than the exclusion of Boudreaux, but I am not outraged that Aiken made it.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 07:39 PM - Post#225717    

This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.

Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-08-17 07:43 PM - Post#225719    

My sample of Aiken's games is limited--I saw him against Stanford, Houston, Princeton twice, Penn once, some of Yale once. My sample of the other contenders was also limited. Based on those games and the reported counting and efficiency stats, I have a hard time putting Aiken on the first team.

I see the statistical rationale--he effectively used a lot of possessions on the second-place team in the league. But it seemed to me that he also did a lot of things to help his team lose, once he got scouted in conference, taking bad shots, throwing bad passes, getting toasted on D, dribbling into traffic for hopeless off-balance attempts against rotating shot blockers with time on the shot clock, losing his cool, etc. There was a downward trend to his performance as the season wore on, as far as I could tell. I would rather have Mike Smith as my PG than Aiken right now, although by next year the picture may look very different. (Announcers' comparisons of Aiken to his mentor/buddy Kyrie Irving seemed laughable--I watched Irving in college, and he was on a different level. The Ivy player with the game closest to Irving's, offensively, that I saw is Alex Copeland.)

Boudreaux occasionally would matador D a guy when he was tired or in foul trouble, but generally was a super-steady force on the offensive end, surrounded by defenses geared to shut him down. He showed good shooting range from outside to go with his drives and post-up moves, and he tirelessly vacuumed up rebounds. He was a steadying influence on a team that desperately needed him to play very well just to compete.
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 08:08 PM - Post#225727    

I think it comes down to taxonomy. If the coaches/league/whoever think that the all ivy teams represent the best players on the best teams so be it.

However, don't argue that it's the top 5 (or 6) players in the league and pull something like this.

It's also questionable that you think it's wrong to question the coaches. As we've seen across the league- a lot of these coaches are far from perfect and I think suggesting we can't crticize their actions in this is pretty "obtuse." They were wrong. Counting stats, eye test, advanced metrics, all make a case for Boudreaux. If you want to cherry pick some advanced stats like usage % or defensive efficiency go ahead- but I can do the same thing for 95% of Boudreauxs other stats.


PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-08-17 08:19 PM - Post#225730    

  • mrjames Said:
This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.

Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.



With all due respect, you speak as if the coaches are all one voice and they all agree. There were exactly 2 unanimous choices by my count. Coaches have different agendas and opinions for these things too. I certainly don't have better basketball judgment than any of the coaches but this is not merely a basketball decision as you suggest. If the coaches all agreed the whole thing would be unanimous.

And I am pretty sure the selection of Aiken and not EB was not without controversy among the coaches.


mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 08:30 PM - Post#225733    

I never said it was wrong to question the coaches or criticize them. I said it was ballsy to presume your basketball judgment was better than theirs.

Your opinion that the coaches were wrong is just that - your opinion. In the opinion of the coaches you were wrong. I have more faith in their judgment than yours.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-08-17 08:50 PM - Post#225738    

The advanced stats almost all favor Aiken over Boudreaux, and by a wde margin. Rebounding percentage is about the only place he comes out ahead. So I'm not sure what you are referencing here about advanced stats favoring Boudreaux.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-08-17 08:57 PM - Post#225742    

But the advanced metrics don't put Aiken in the Top 5.

If we were going strictly by advanced metrics then the All-Ivy team would probably be 3-4 Princeton players, then Spieth and/or Howard.

And Howard doesn't make even the 2nd team.

I'll buy that some of this comes down to 'coaches judgment'.

My judgement would put Boudreaux on the 1st team.

SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 09:00 PM - Post#225743    

See that is where you have lost me. If i was a single "voice crying out in the wilderness" then I'd happily eat my medicine, say "dang, what a crazy world we live in" and fade into obscurity until next season.

The above scenario isn't the case. More than just myself think this is, at the very least, shocking. I think its disrespectful, not just to Boudreaux, but to Dartmouth as a whole.

I think its ballsy to presume that this revolves around basketball judgment and not politics or other extraneous factors. Give me a double blind experiment where all the coaches can see is stats (both counting and "advanced") and team records and I would eat my big winter hat if they didn't choose Boudreaux for 1st team 8/8 times.


SomeGuy: I'm not sure what advanced stats you take a look at. Stuart Suss's post as well as Hollingers PER dont put Aiken in the top 10. PER alone has him at #20.
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 09:06 PM - Post#225746    

Hot take alert

Regardless of how absurd it is that you are reading into a benign tweet regarding its future ramifications, his account is locked and I for some reason can't even find it. Looks like Mr. James might be one of the lucky followers.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-08-17 09:07 PM - Post#225747    

I was looking at ORAT and win shares per 40, mainly. Is Boudreaux ahead of Aiken in PER?
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 09:09 PM - Post#225750    

Yeah- Boudreaux sits at 8 with a 19.95 as opposed to a 17.21. Both good, but Aikens is clearly closer to an "average season"
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-08-17 09:10 PM - Post#225751    

Correct, and that's why I had Aiken as HM on my list. I didn't take the possibility of a tie into account (which is what produces 6 -- no tiebreakers for all-Ivy), but if I had a 6th, it wouldn't have been Aiken.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-08-17 09:14 PM - Post#225752    

What about per 40?
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 09:21 PM - Post#225755    

Didnt realize his account was locked. Taking that posted tweet down.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-08-17 09:22 PM - Post#225756    

A lot of interesting stuff here. Let me think about this, do I side with the fans on these boards, or with the Coaches who have watched hours and hours of films, discussed them with their knowledgeable staff members, and then voted, though not allowed to vote for their own players. Hum.....
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 09:23 PM - Post#225757    

PER is a per minute adjusted statistic.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 09:52 PM - Post#225773    

Do you seriously pay attention SomeGuy? Boudreaux's coach has gone on record in multiple interviews explaining how the offense is totally designed to go through Evan. Watch a game all the way through sometime. So, because his coach orders the players to go through Boudreaux, you deem him selfish. Whatever man. Haters are gonna hate. EVERY play is designed for Boudreaux to touch the ball and for him to make decisions with it. With your astute observations, how did that one escape you? And guess what efficiency stats don't measure? Heart, toughness, being in the right place at the right time, running the floor, energy, conditioning (more mins) high basketball IQ, diving on the floor for loose balls, deflections, great passes that don't result in assists, boxing out so your teammate gets the rebound, taking on double teams and passing the ball out to your teammates (who this year 90% of the time didn't make the open shots so he doesn't get the assist), taking offensive charges, slide helping on defense, leading a team, etc. Boudreaux excels at those non efficiency non measurables. For high usage players, Evan has the best ORTG on his team at 103.4 in conference. Spencer Weiss in conference was 101.6. Aiken is 99.9 in conference. I do recall these are IVY LEAGUE conference awards. Boudreaux writing that he forgot that this wasn't the 5 best players in the league is 100% correct. It isn't. And the coaches have proven that with their 100% subjective voting. I would like to see what the Ivy League gives the coaches to guide them in their decision making for end of year awards. Because the process now is crap; subjective and biased and definitely not stats based.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 09:54 PM - Post#225775    

Maybe you've hurt his reputation by posting a locked account tweet. Hmmmmm
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 09:56 PM - Post#225776    

^ wouldn't go that far. Classy move to take it down. A public twitter profile is a public forum and criticizing what people say on it is a thing these days. mrjames certainly meant no harm.
hoops123
Freshman
Posts 97
03-08-17 10:02 PM - Post#225779    

Private twitter profile. Not public
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
03-08-17 10:03 PM - Post#225780    

That was the assumption. If you follow someone on twitter, it is hard to know if an account is private or public.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-08-17 10:53 PM - Post#225796    

  • mrjames Said:
This thread lost me when it started arguing that coaches don't have the best take on what's going on in this league. You don't have to agree with their calls, but it's pretty ballsy to contend that your judgment is better than theirs.

Even when I point out stuff I don't agree with (and Twitter followers know that's A LOT), I do so with a fundamental understanding that I don't have better basketball judgment than the coach, and there's probably something I'm missing.



People used to say the same thing about the "Coaches' Poll" until Rick Majerus blew that myth apart.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/893026/Majeru s-...
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 10:59 PM - Post#225801    

Coaches in this league take this seriously. Obviously can't speak for other leagues and coaches and polls may very well be a different beast than end of season awards.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-08-17 11:04 PM - Post#225803    

Again, they do take it seriously but they do not agree or speak with one voice. This isn't an us against them thing. Aiken got in over EB because he got more votes. they didn't all agree
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-08-17 11:50 PM - Post#225814    

I'd like to take my response down as well, but I seem to have lost the ability to edit it for some reason. Do you have the power to remove it?

Not my intention to publicize a reaction that wasn't meant to be public.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-09-17 12:12 AM - Post#225817    

I think Boudreaux is a tremendous basketball player. Unfortunately, these sorts of debates often turn into what a guy isn't in order to make a point. My point is only to emphasize that I agree with the first team selections (and they turned out to match my predictions). To me, that's not hating -- it's saying something positive about Weisz, Cook, Stephens, Spieth, and Chambers. I don't see or intend any insult to Boudreaux in doing that.

remember that you and I have had some debates on here before because I have had the audacity to say supportive things about Fleming, Cormier, and Mcglaughlin. I think if you read my stuff a little more, you'll see that I'm generally pretty positive.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-09-17 12:21 AM - Post#225818    

I hope that the players are not taking this beauty contest half as seriously as their fans are. For the record, I would prefer not to,play against either one. By the way, what is the prize that they are fighting over?
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3614
Mike Porter
03-09-17 01:20 AM - Post#225826    

Interesting conversation and not surprised Dartmouth fans and others are annoyed with the results, though honestly I saw this coming from a mile away. Personally I think EB on second team makes sense. Great player, but buttom line is that his numbers dropped across the board (shooting, 3pt shooting, FTS, and team wins). Of course there are some factors not fully in his control for why, but if a guy puts up worse numbers and the team is worse, it's not unreasonable that he'd stay at same level awards as last year.

Certainly don't think I know more than the coaches, but frankly what surprised me was Aiken on first team. Don't see that (expect it plenty moving forward but don't think he earned it this year). Second team for sure, but for me the other 5 first teamers make complete sense.

Hell, even if you look at stats, Kenpom doesn't have Aiken first team either:

Rank Player
1 Steven Cook, Princeton (Sr)
2 AJ Brodeur, Penn (Fr)
3 Spencer Weisz, Princeton (Sr)
4 Devin Cannady, Princeton (So)
5 Myles Stephens, Princeton (So)

I expected he would get ROY - though personally I was leaning towards Oni, this is a totally fair result.

End of the day though, none of this means crap. As a Penn fan, I don't care where AJ is as long as we get better next year (and hey a few upsets this year works too)!
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-09-17 08:36 AM - Post#225839    

  • Mike Porter Said:
Interesting conversation and not surprised Dartmouth fans and others are annoyed with the results,



I feel bad for Boudreaux, but don't be surprised to see some sort of "makeup" from the coaches next year or year after.

Dartmouth fans howled in protest when Dalyn Williams was only named to the second team his senior year in football. Many in the league thought he was the best player overall.

The following year, Dartmouth's Flo Orimolade got defensive player of the year even though the team finished last. I can't help but wonder if some of the coaches regretted their votes the year before and that this was their way of saying "sorry about that" to Dartmouth.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-09-17 09:06 AM - Post#225843    

Yes. While I am a proponent of winning games being something that gets considered (heavily) in terms of who makes first team, I think it should be considered most in instances where a team like Princeton goes 14-0. As we discussed this on the board, there were a few comments that suggested that making the Ivy tournament ought to have some bearing. However, I'm not sure I really see a significant difference between Penn going 6-8 and Dartmouth going 4-10 (and beating Penn twice) -- certainly not one that would be significant enough for me to say that Penn's best player gets equal billing to Dartmouth's best player. If Columbia got the last spot at 5-9, I don't think I'd elevate Petrasek to 1st team just because they made the tournament.

Of course, I presume that not all members of the 2nd team got the same number of votes. I suspect Broudeaux got more votes than Brodeur.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-09-17 05:48 PM - Post#225939    

Don't know why Kenpom doesn't include Spieth on First Team. 1st in scoring, FTs taken, FT made, 2nd in Mins., 7th in steals, 8th in RBs, 12th in Assists, etc. He was First Team on virtually everyone else's.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-09-17 06:58 PM - Post#225955    

  • Old Bear Said:
Don't know why Kenpom doesn't include Spieth on First Team. 1st in scoring, FTs taken, FT made, 2nd in Mins., 7th in steals, 8th in RBs, 12th in Assists, etc. He was First Team on virtually everyone else's.



The KenPom coaches have better judgment than everyone else.

whitakk
Masters Student
Posts 523
03-09-17 07:33 PM - Post#225960    

There's a heavy team ranking component to KenPom's kPOY formula, so it's hard for someone from a bottom-tier team to place highly.
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts 469
umbrellaman
03-09-17 11:20 PM - Post#226000    

It's remarkable how fairly consistent the biases towards seniors and winning teams has been over the years to where we expect it, or are surprised when it isn't there. All thecoaches I think are cognizant of the guys who won't have another chance at it; that being said, it's not a conspiracy
- each coach puts their ballot in and they count them up.

As much as I like advanced metrics, I'm going to give an curmudgeonly old man reason for Boudreaux- it's supposed to be a "team" and you don't have a big. Now I know it's not by position, and lord knows how you would translate Weisz, Cook or Stephens all of whom play the interchangeable Princeton wing position. But, especially with evolution of the game away from true post bigs - if it's close I put the big guy on the first team. Take Chambers, Boudreaux - take any 3 of the five remaining first teamers and you have a team.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-10-17 10:10 AM - Post#226026    

Interesting. I'm curious whether the coaches vote that way. You could see them all putting together more of a "team" with a traditional big and point, but then once the votes are counted you could still get a team of all bigs or all guards.

And on the court, your Princeton team kind of challenges the notion -- sometimes, it looks to me like Princeton is just playing 5 wings. You've got some length and versatility among the wings that let's you do it and still play great defense.
whitakk
Masters Student
Posts 523
03-10-17 10:53 AM - Post#226042    

Right -- Stephens probably played the five as often as Boudreaux, at least by the end of the season.

I think All-Ivy should just reward the best five players, regardless of position -- it's just an award, after all. But it's interesting to think about.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-10-17 12:19 PM - Post#226065    

Spieth also played the 5, at times.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-10-17 02:12 PM - Post#226111    

I remember when people criticized Henderson a few years ago for having a starting lineup of five forwards. But then the objection was more about mismatches at the guard spots.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
11-10-17 01:13 PM - Post#235813    

  • Quote:
or he transfers out...

I think its solidly disrespectful that 6 made 1st team, and one of them was Aiken. Clearly in this case, team quality was a determining factor on an individual award.



BUMP! SDS for the win...
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
11-10-17 02:34 PM - Post#235828    

Mike,
Can't help but notice that you don't seem as bullish on Yale as others do - including myself. Your twitter simulations places some distance between HP and Y, and has Penn gaining ground on 3rd place.

Care to share?
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
11-10-17 09:32 PM - Post#235861    

Yeah...
SomeDartmouthStudent
Freshman
Posts 68
11-14-17 02:57 PM - Post#236283    

Finally remembered my password because I thought I had called this scenario- although can't say it's remotely good news.



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