Sorry to re-post this from another stream but I think the farce playing out calls for it:

I think we can go one step better next year: each school is in the tournament but they bring combined men's and women's teams. Seedings are determined by averaging each school's two team's conference rankings as determine by the average of their best and lowest scores in four computer ratings systems. Top four seeded teams must play no more than three representatives from the men's team and no fewer than two members of the women's team at any one time. Lowest four seeds must play no fewer than three members of their women's team and no more than two members of their men's team at any one time. Double or nothing ticket to the NCAA tournaments.

One-game playoff for 4th seed on Wednesday before the tourney!

I just read mike James Twitter feed and yes this is patently absurd

The tie breaking rules made it appear like one set of criteria would be used but now they directly replied to mikes query that ALL head to heads against ALL ivy teams are now the criteria

First this really really hurts Penn. But more importantly it does not allow any of the contending teams to directly determine their fate next weekend which does not pass the smell test

Yes bring out the lawyers

Going outside the tourney teams hurts Penn but I don't think it "really really hurts" Penn. Most of the scenarios don't get there. First we're assuming a tie. If Penn and Columbia are tied and Penn didn't beat Harvard, Penn is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard) If Penn beat Harvard and Columbia lost to Yale, Columbia is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Yale). If Penn and Columbia win out AND Yale loses to Cornell - Yale is out because they failed to beat a seeded team (Harvard).

So the scenarios we are looking at are Columbia and Penn both sweeping (and Yale winning on Friday) or both losing on Friday and winning on Saturday. This would mean both teams were tied and have the same record v. the top 3. Based on the tourney team only tiebreaker Penn would go through based on ratings.

But even here, Penn still goes through in many scenarios. Penn has a sweep of Cornell in the bank. If Columbia and Penn sweep scenario, Columbia will have swept Brown, so the winner of the Cornell-Brown game will determine which team as the higher sweep. If Cornell wins, Penn goes through.

In the second scenario, both teams will have split with Brown, so as long as Cornell remains ahead or tied with Dartmouth, Penn goes through. I am assuming if Cornell and Dartmouth are tied for 7th, both Penn and Columbia are 2-2 against them and it goes to ratings.

So the only scenarios where going to the non-tourney teams hurts Penn are 1) Penn and Columbia sweep, Yale beats Cornell and Brown beats Cornell. 2) Penn and Columbia lose Friday and win Saturday. If Dartmouth beats Princeton and Cornell does not sweep OR if Dartmouth loses to Princeton and Cornell gets swept.

So there are a couple of scenarios where Penn would need a Cornell win over Brown. More interesting is a Cornell win against Yale creates a couple of more paths for Penn to get in. Kind of makes Penn fans wish they were nicer to Brian Earl?

Mike:

Your take on all of this? It's hard to imagine, given the tiebreaker language, that "seeding" language applies to teams outside the tourney. You seed for a tourney. The teams that make it into the tourney are seeded--they are the only seeds. We never talk about seeding in terms of how each team finishes within the league. Sure, we talk about coming in 2nd place, 4th, etc but not that this is our league seed.

Besides, what is the point of having a potential 7 vs 8 game during the last weekend determine a tourney berth? If that is what it has come down to, we might as well go back to the 14 game season.

You didn't do anything wrong. We shouldn't have to parse anything.

If Penn and Columbia win out, but one of them doesn't go to the tourney because of a 7 v 8 game (even to decide who is 7 and who is 8) during the last weekend? Zero sense. You're talking about splitting hairs between two lousy teams that have nothing to play for, all to determine a playoff berth?

what in the heck does SEA mean and why do you keep insisting on using it when everyone else calls it a tourney?

My presumption is Penn fans are waiting to see if they make it (and then as the 4 or 3).

I think we are learning that people are a little more interested in their own team than the overall "festival" as it were.

This would truly be the most radical solution to avoid such patently absurd scenarios: play a 14-game round robin tournament to determine the league winner!

Also, doesn't the hair splitting actually seem a little backwards? If we're breaking a tie by getting to record against the 6th or 7th team in the standings, by definition everything is even up to that point. And we know that both teams finished with the same record. So, if one team wins the tiebreaker by sweeping the 6th place team, by definition they will have dumped a game (and in the instant case perhaps even 2) to the 7th or 8th place team. That seems worse to me than splitting with the 6th place team. It makes sense to prioritize record against the top 3 - that tells you how well you play at the top of your game. But once we're down to 6th, If I was going to use HTH, I'd almost be inclined to go the other way and start from the back.