Select "print" from your browser's "File" menu.

Back to Post
Username Post: IL Tourney future
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-02-17 12:23 PM - Post#224281    

Article quoting Robin Harris on the future of the IL Tournament

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...

She talks about a bunch of issues discussed on these boards including Places like Y, H, Col as well as these select quotes:

On the Palestra as venue:

It was easy to come here this year. This is the obvious place, and we'll just have to - I think it's certainly a front-runner for next year as we look at how we want to promote and feature our student-athletes during March Madness. It's a very special place.

On potential of higher seed to host:

If we were to go to the site of the higher seed, the regular-season champion, that could very well be different, and at different schools, and it would not allow us to bring our men and women together. One of the main reasons these tournaments were approved was to bring the men and women together.

On possible non Ivy neutral site:

We will look at and evaluate, in May, neutral-site venues that are within our footprint, that make sense, that are right-sized, that will create the right atmosphere.


westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
03-02-17 01:17 PM - Post#224294    

The most amazing line in there was:

"One of the main reasons these tournaments were approved was to bring the men and women together."

Now I finally understand why we're having the tournament.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-02-17 01:24 PM - Post#224296    

And this will be pumped into all of the occupied dorms:

Link

  • westphillywarrior Said:
The most amazing line in there was:

"One of the main reasons these tournaments were approved was to bring the men and women together."

Now I finally understand why we're having the tournament.



SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-02-17 01:29 PM - Post#224298    

That's actually mildly reassuring. At least they had a social-change agenda to explain their decision.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-02-17 01:42 PM - Post#224300    

Lions and Tigers and Bears--oh my!

Well, Tigers, at any rate.
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
03-02-17 01:45 PM - Post#224301    

Here is what I would suggest to Robin Harris:

Combine the different options.

Play the men's and women's semi-final games on the courts of the higher seeded teams. These games could be in the middle of the week. This option would make finishing first and second during the 14 game tournament an important goal and would reward those teams and their fans.

Find an appropriate neutral site for a Saturday grand championship men's and women's finals. This would guarantee a large arena and would bring the men and women together.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-02-17 01:54 PM - Post#224304    

I now get it---we're doing a product placement with this:

http://www.rightstuffdating.com/
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-02-17 02:37 PM - Post#224307    

Teams 5-8 will be frustrated.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-02-17 02:37 PM - Post#224308    

Will this help promote women's basketball? It will be interesting to see.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-02-17 02:51 PM - Post#224313    

It will just give them incentive to make the playoff the next season. No one likes a loser.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-02-17 03:26 PM - Post#224317    

Another niche market for alternate facts is born.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-02-17 04:47 PM - Post#224324    

  • sparman Said:
Teams 5-8 will be frustrated.



It also gives the word 'seeding' extra meaning.

weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-03-17 10:24 AM - Post#224402    

The New York Times has finally noticed the new tournament.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-03-17 01:38 PM - Post#224423    

Ah, "like an antique collector ... pining for the old days..." a few of us old guys bitch about the many questionable decisions that went into the design of our first tourney. I'm going to telephone that writer on my rotary dial and thank him for bringing me into the 21st century. What could possibly be more outdated than having a two month+ season with a 56 game schedule to determine a champion when we can get it all done in 18 hours on one team's basketball arena? 56 games is so BORING and requires far too long an attention span for a champion these days. How could I and a few others have been so old fashioned?

I guess I'll wander down to the lounge and see if anyone is up for a little whist or a game of pinochle.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-03-17 01:43 PM - Post#224425    

"So last March, amid an influx of new personnel and shifting opinions among players and coaches, the Ivy League broke with its tradition and became the final Division I conference to institute a postseason tournament."

This is the new way....patience grasshopper. This has been a more exciting Ivy League season as delineated in the article. More basketball is good basketball.
yoyo
Senior
Posts 354
03-03-17 03:16 PM - Post#224450    

Good to hear The Cathedral is the front runner for the future.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-03-17 03:56 PM - Post#224453    

I'm guessing if this tournament is a success - and I think it will be - then the powers that be will either move it to a permanent 'neutral' site (bad idea) or rotate it (OK if the sites are acceptable, would like the Palestra to continue to be in the mix). I think the season has already been a success. I had been totally opposed to a tournament but it has made the games more intense and fun to watch.

The ideas floated by the Princeton coaches are bad. You can't have a tournament in a 2,000 seat arena - it would be worse than those one game play-ins Penn and Princeton used to play at Stabler. Having the top seed play one fewer game is awful - but why stop there? Maybe the top seed can shoot at a 9 foot hoop and their opponent shoot at a 12 foot hoop? If you want the top seed to win so badly then don't have a tournament.

PS - I had a rotary phone until not too long ago when my wife made me throw it out. I am always up for a game of bridge, whist or pinochle.


TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-03-17 05:05 PM - Post#224464    

The Line, you sound like someone who thinks their team will never win the 14-game league championship again. Let's see, under your thinking, your team could slither into the this thing with a solid 6-8 record every year and enjoy home court advantage. Enjoy your low standards pal.

Go Tigers!
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-03-17 06:37 PM - Post#224478    

You stay classy, TigerFan.

Wouldn't want you any other way.


bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-03-17 11:48 PM - Post#224614    

That Courtney Banghart suggestion is just crazy suggesting 3 teams vs. 4 teams as we would miss the opportunity to watch the excitement as to which team gets the 4th seed -- by default??

If 4th seed wins the IL Tournament, IL may have the opportunity to participate in the play in game in order to face Villanova or Gonzaga; but it is exciting I must admit.
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-03-17 11:54 PM - Post#224616    

Anyone think that either of the contestants for the men's #4 seed deserves to be in post season?
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 01:55 AM - Post#224636    

I do.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-04-17 02:08 AM - Post#224639    

Possibly Dartmouth, if they are still in contention and if they upset Princeton tomorrow. No one else, though.
Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts 586
03-04-17 09:11 AM - Post#224657    

No
Bryan
Junior
Posts 231
03-04-17 09:35 AM - Post#224662    

The coaches and schools set up the rules before the season started. If the #4 seed wins the IL tournament they deserve to play in the NCAA tournament.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
03-04-17 09:47 AM - Post#224664    

She's just dizzy from too many losses to junior high zone defenses.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-04-17 01:11 PM - Post#224705    

  • TigerFan Said:
Anyone think that either of the contestants for the men's #4 seed deserves to be in post season?



They deserve every bit as much as Holy Cross did last year.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-04-17 01:25 PM - Post#224708    

Yes, and Holy Cross became the poster child for disasterous one-bid tournament outcomes. Great argument for those that want to restrict mid-major participation.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-04-17 01:50 PM - Post#224714    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
Yes, and Holy Cross became the poster child for disasterous one-bid tournament outcomes.



They won their NCAA game and brought in significant cash to the PL.

I'd love to have me some of those disastrous results.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-04-17 01:57 PM - Post#224718    

On the other hand, I believe that Holy Cross qualifying more likely undercut the respect for the quality of basketball at the top of the PL. Nationally, people remember that at 14-20 Holy Cross was an entertaining outlier, not that Bucknell (14-4) and Lehigh (13-5) battled for the regular season title.

For instance, if Dartmouth can win the Ivy Tournament and enter the NCAA's at 10-19, then the likely conclusion will be that Princeton, Harvard and Yale must not have been that good. That's a risk associated with the tournament. Dartmouth (and probably Penn or Columbia) are less likely to be celebrated outside Ivy fans as opposed to the league being minimized.




bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-04-17 02:10 PM - Post#224721    

Exactly. Think of the outside world reaction to the 4th seed losing by 30+ points this year vs. what Yale accomplished last year. My non-IL friends still talk about Makai Mason, Sears and Sherrod. It enhanced the reputation of the league. Even though the odds of the 4th seed winning are small, less than 15% by the experts, it can still happen and the league's reputation will suffer if they get trounced --- "same old Ivy League -- you guys suck.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 03:36 PM - Post#224731    

It's a ridiculous argument in my opinion. They aren't taking away the automatic bid so who cares if Dartmouth makes it and gets trounced by Gonzaga by 40? Next year Harvard will make it to the sweet 16 and flip the tables. Short term reputational fear is not a way to make long term strategic decisions. The IL tournament will strengthen this league top to bottom over time.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-04-17 03:42 PM - Post#224733    

Strengthening by weakening. War is peace.
whitakk
Masters Student
Posts 523
03-04-17 04:10 PM - Post#224740    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
On the other hand, I believe that Holy Cross qualifying more likely undercut the respect for the quality of basketball at the top of the PL. Nationally, people remember that at 14-20 Holy Cross was an entertaining outlier, not that Bucknell (14-4) and Lehigh (13-5) battled for the regular season title.

For instance, if Dartmouth can win the Ivy Tournament and enter the NCAA's at 10-19, then the likely conclusion will be that Princeton, Harvard and Yale must not have been that good. That's a risk associated with the tournament. Dartmouth (and probably Penn or Columbia) are less likely to be celebrated outside Ivy fans as opposed to the league being minimized.



The thing about this argument is that Lehigh and Bucknell actually weren't all that good last year. The entire Patriot League was a mess in the past two seasons (seems to have rebounded this year), which is a big part of the reason teams like Lafayette and Holy Cross were able to win the tournament.

That's not to say Princeton couldn't lose to Dartmouth or whoever -- it's a real risk of the tournament setup. But it's less likely, because Princeton is way better than those PL leaders were.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-04-17 04:30 PM - Post#224741    

C'mon Kevin, facts have no place in this argument.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-04-17 04:48 PM - Post#224745    

I agree that it is less likely that Princeton would lose than Lehigh or Bucknell to Holy Cross last year. If it did happen, the loss would be more damaging to the IL vs. Patriot League reputation for exactly the reasons that you have stated if the number #4 seed wins.

The most recent odds to win the IL Tournament are: Princeton 50%, Harvard 22%, Yale 17%, whomever 11%.

PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 04:53 PM - Post#224746    

  • bradley Said:
I agree that it is less likely that Princeton would lose than Lehigh or Bucknell to Holy Cross last year. If it did happen, the loss would be more damaging to the IL vs. Patriot League reputation for exactly the reasons that you have stated if the number #4 seed wins.

The most recent odds to win the IL Tournament are: Princeton 50%, Harvard 22%, Yale 17%, whomever 11%.




This implies the IL has some lofty reputation that could be damaged. That's a fallacy. No one in the NCAA expects anything from an Ivy League team so you can't have much of a reputation than none. People think that Baylor sucked last year and Cincinnati and New Mexico before that. Until we are consistently beating people in the first couple rounds our reputation in the NCAA is secure.

TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-04-17 06:06 PM - Post#224754    

PennFan, you sound like a guy whose team hasn't been to the post season in a while. Sad.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-04-17 07:23 PM - Post#224762    

Carmody of HC was completely sincere in my opinion when, after winning the PL tournament, he stated at the press conference that the situation was unjust and that Lehigh deserved the bid. It was not institutionally possible for him to do anything about it, but the idiocy of the situation was apparent to him. And I say that even though I rooted for HC through their run and the eventual blowout loss to Oregon.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-04-17 08:09 PM - Post#224784    

  • TigerFan Said:
PennFan, you sound like a guy whose team hasn't been to the post season in a while. Sad.



And you sound like a guy whose team is going to the NIT, Glad.

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-04-17 10:08 PM - Post#224870    

Well, all you SEA supporters should be exceedingly grateful to Jackson Donahue right now. There might actually be a decent crowd on Day 1.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-05-17 11:02 AM - Post#224960    

A fair statement is that the IL reputation has improved over the past 5+ years but the reputation is fragile. The improvement is largely due to the performance of the IL teams at the Big Dance. Many non-Ivy BB fans probably hope that the elitist IL schools fall flat on their fannies. What transpires in March will enhance or diminish the fragile reputation. Fortunately, the Harvard freshmen class also helps to change perceptions.

Now that we are past speculation as to what would happen during the season with actual results, an objective person can reasonably project seeding for all four teams and this year in particular, there is a significant difference based on actual results. Take historical norms by seed and the likelihood of a first round upset is questionable at best for seeds 2 thru 4. Princeton may well lose to the 4th seed at the NCAA tournament but they should be competitive and give a good showing based on their experience.

The introduction of the IL tournament did achieve the goal of keeping many IL fans in the game throughout the season and the Palestra will be exciting next weekend. The question if the league reputation will do well or take a hit this year will be determined by results and time will tell. If the Tigers win the IL Tournament this year, it would turn out to be a win-win for the league as to the introduction of the IL tournament but the odds are 50-50. I know that this statement may fall in the fear mongering category if the Tigers win the IL Tournament. Point is that if you want to introduce the IL Tournament do it when you are on safer ground.


Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-05-17 11:33 AM - Post#224965    

With a strong tournament and a little luck, Princeton will be a 12 and a bad draw for just about any potential 5.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
03-05-17 11:38 AM - Post#224968    

Wishful thinking?

penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-05-17 11:49 AM - Post#224970    

Penn as an actual 4 draw is Princeton's worst nightmare.


Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 12:00 PM - Post#224975    

Until this weekend, I might have agreed with you. But now, my friend, you are flattering yourself.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-05-17 12:33 PM - Post#224986    

ALL of the pressure is on Princeton. If Penn loses--no big deal. They hit expectations.

If Princeton loses? Major kvetching from you folks all off-season about how your NCAA entitlement got snatched away from you. Oh, and a major choke job to boot.
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-05-17 12:48 PM - Post#224992    

Princeton played the best half of basketball last night I've seen them play in nearly 20 years (left at halftime to see my son in a play--what a great night!). The Tigers are in great shape physically and mentally for next weekend (I'd enjoy hearing from any Penn fan who wants to talk down Dartmouth).

Go Tigers!
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 01:10 PM - Post#224998    

PN,

No more kvetching from me. We won, I'm happy ... except for the seniors who put in four years for a short trip of glory under the old rules and may now lose it. But, that hasn't happened yet.. And, there is still hope left for the hopeless.

Remind me again ... Was that 6-8 or 5-9? Keep the N.I.T.-picking coming. Or, I'll finally have to shut up.

This is too easy. At least, Chip makes me think.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-05-17 02:03 PM - Post#225008    

You forgot the best part--we started the season 0-6...and made the tourney!

I was opposed to the tourney precisely because of the spot that you're in. But now that the tourney exists, might as well milk it for all it's worth.

Besides, most people watch tourneys (at least initially) to root for the grand upset. And we, my friend, are mostly certainly the David in this matchup.

  • Tiger69 Said:
PN,

No more kvetching from me. We won, I'm happy ... except for the seniors who put in four years for a short trip of glory under the old rules and may now lose it. But, that hasn't happened yet.. And, there is still hope left for the hopeless.

Remind me again ... Was that 6-8 or 5-9? Keep the N.I.T.-picking coming. Or, I'll finally have to shut up.

This is too easy. At least, Chip makes me think.



HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-05-17 02:06 PM - Post#225012    

Of course there are far better metrics, but Harvard on back to back nights played even with both Penn and Princeton on the road before losing on a shot in the final seconds. Could one argue that the difference was home court advantage.

Shift home court advantage, having Princeton visit Penn the following weekend. Make the Princeton kids endure a week of classes and exams while Penn players enjoy a week off (spring break).

Think the League isn't concerned? Robin Harris was interviewed during the Harvard/Princeton game and volunteered that it was a priority of the league to try and remove the home court advantage claiming that even the Palestra court will look different. Even the league is getting a bit defensive about have the 14-0 league champ open up on the road against the 6-8 4th seed. Watch those otherwise languishing ticket sales explode as Penn fans snatch them up.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-05-17 02:08 PM - Post#225013    

Except that a lot of the Penn students will not be there because of Spring Break, just like they weren't there in droves over this past weekend, either.


HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-05-17 02:14 PM - Post#225015    

Possibly, but there are only a limited number of student tix and I expect returning Penn students will snap them up. Harvard's and Yale's spring break starts Friday. Much easier for a Penn student to return a day early to his/her dorm room than for a Havard/Yale student to change vacation plans and travel 4 to 6 hours from campus. Only Princeton is in session.

I believe the Harvard vs Yale playoff occurred over spring break though.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-05-17 02:18 PM - Post#225018    

You know who's probably most happy about the tourney now? Yale. They are under the radar right now, the proverbial "middle child," giving Jones a chance to restore that chip on their shoulder. They must feel like they underperformed toward the end but now get a chance to show their quality against the regular-season elite with no home-court nonsense to muddy the waters.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-05-17 02:27 PM - Post#225021    

  • penn nation Said:
Penn as an actual 4 draw is Princeton's worst nightmare.





Princeton just obliterated a team that beat Penn at the Palestra the previous evening.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
03-05-17 03:01 PM - Post#225032    

  • Go Green Said:
  • penn nation Said:
Penn as an actual 4 draw is Princeton's worst nightmare.





Princeton just obliterated a team that beat Penn at the Palestra the previous evening.



And Penn beat the team that took Princeton to the edge 2x, including the previous night. What's your point?


Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 03:14 PM - Post#225035    

The NCAA could resolve this silly mess by simply giving Princeton a bid as well as the winner of the Tourney. If we win that, too, we sell it to the Big Ten (going on 20) and split the proceeds with fellow Ivies for real scholarships.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
03-05-17 03:24 PM - Post#225038    

The mess is completely the Ivy League's doing. The NCAA could care less which single Ivy League team shows up.

When Penn sweeps both the men's & women's titles, I'm sure Robin Harris & her masters will change the tourney next year to only allow H/Y/P in & play it at the Lavatory.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 03:31 PM - Post#225044    

With you on the Ivy's self-destructive behavior.

But, given recent events, your fans should have the least to gripe about.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-05-17 03:35 PM - Post#225045    

  • PennFan10 Said:
What's your point?





That Princeton is just better than Penn this year.

The court they play on should not matter.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-05-17 04:24 PM - Post#225070    

Well, in addition to playing at home, and not having the pressure, there's also the possibility that the Penn team that showed up for the Brown/Yale weekend happens to show up next weekend. Top of their game Penn is pretty darn good, and can push Princeton.

Of course, that team didn't show up for either Dartmouth game, and I thought Dartmouth played well both games. Obviously if that Penn team shows up, things won't go very well.



Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.459 seconds.   Total Queries: 15   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 05:34 AM
Top