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Username Post: Penn again
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-04-17 10:11 PM - Post#224873    

Well, the much-bruited outcome indeed transpired. The fourth-place Quakers get a chance to play a home game against the undefeated first-place Tigers in the first round of the new league folly. Princeton ought to come in confident after pounding Penn at the Palestra earlier this season and playing at a high level this weekend.

At least they got in on a win over a good team. If they had lost to Harvard the beeping sound you would have heard would have been the pale blue garbage truck backing in to the tourney.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-04-17 10:13 PM - Post#224879    

SRP,

I have to admit I got a good laugh out of that.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-04-17 10:20 PM - Post#224885    

Hey, if Penn gets home court, we should get to supply the Jadwin refs
gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts 3634
03-05-17 01:45 AM - Post#224912    

Even though I'm 100% in favor of an Ivy Tournament, it's hilarious how the very FIRST year is an ideal argument against it -- a 14-0 team that finished FOUR GAMES ahead of the 2nd place team has to play a 6-8 team that will have homecourt advantage due to logistical reasons.

Oh well. Tigers took care of Penn at the Palestra easily after struggling to beat them at Jadwin. At this point, it's not about the (Ivy) competition. It's about showing up ready.

Mitch's teams have a history of letdowns, so let's hope this hot streak continues and they get a chance to pull off an upset in the Big Dance.

10Q
Professor
Posts 23199
03-05-17 09:32 AM - Post#224933    

All you get is the opportunity to throw orange and black marshmellos after the first basket.
Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts 586
03-05-17 10:00 AM - Post#224942    

please no m-80's this year
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 10:06 AM - Post#224947    

How about orange and black marbles?
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
03-05-17 10:17 AM - Post#224948    

They did that one year during my undergrad days. Caused needless delays and could have injured someone, either on the spot or later in the game if one of those marbles had rolled back into play.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 10:29 AM - Post#224951    

Sorry, not serious. Just feeling playful as I sit watching the sun rise over the mountains here in western Mexico and savor the warm aftermath of the IL basketball season.
10Q
Professor
Posts 23199
03-05-17 10:52 AM - Post#224957    

You suck. Now I feel better. Enjoy the mountains.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-05-17 11:58 AM - Post#224974    

Thanks. I am.

Enjoy the tourney.
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-05-17 12:59 PM - Post#224995    

Tigers were exceptionally sharp last night on both ends of the court. If they continue to play like that, they should be fine next weekend and have a legitimate shot to win one or two games in the Big Dance. The impressive part of the undefeated season is the number of games they played when one of the stars had a bad shooting night yet they still prevailed. Unless someone can solve their defensive rotation, I think the Orange and Black will prevail next weekend even with a middling shooting performance.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
03-05-17 05:52 PM - Post#225114    

Will be interesting to see how Donahue utilizes Goodman, who basically saw next to no action against Princeton this year. Penn needs several wild cards to come through, and Goodman would certainly be one of them.

The real issue will be Penn's defensive schemes. Penn was so transparent and deliberate in its 1-3-1 that Princeton ended up with a ton of open threes.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-05-17 06:06 PM - Post#225116    

The primary difference at the Palestra is that it looked like men playing against boys -- size, athleticism, skill level, etc. from my vantage point.
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-05-17 07:36 PM - Post#225123    

I have not seen Goodman play but at 6' 0" 160 lb he could have problems with our big guards.
Petrie
Freshman
Posts 42
03-05-17 07:44 PM - Post#225126    

Speaking of wild cards, Begley is the guy that scares me. Like Brodeur, he just looks like a player. Nice bounce, very nice stroke, he's going to be thorn for 4 yrs., but hopefully not this game.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-05-17 08:10 PM - Post#225131    

I tend to overrate lightening-fast PGs so perhaps my concern about Goodman is unwarranted, but Penn has generally looked better when fast-breaking, so Goodman could have some effect there. My older concerns about half-court blow-bys have diminished as the Tigers have improved a lot at on-ball defense.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2262
1LotteryPick1969
03-05-17 10:03 PM - Post#225165    

Excellent point. I had forgotten the pain of seeing guards drive down the paint. Big improvement there this year. Is it better personnel, or better coaching? (Kittles anyone?)
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-05-17 10:36 PM - Post#225176    

That would be a great story if Kittles were largely responsible for that specific improvement. Feels a little too pat to be 100% accurate but a good question to ask coaches or players--what explains it?

The improvement wasn't clear early on this season, but it got better, mostly from a consistency standpoint, as time went on. Copeland had some nifty penetration in the first Yale game, Foreman in the first Penn game had a number of blow-bys, and Smith and Chambers did some damage. But good help defense is a lot easier when you don't have to collapse on as many possessions.
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts 3615
Mike Porter
03-06-17 12:09 AM - Post#225189    

  • Petrie Said:
Speaking of wild cards, Begley is the guy that scares me. Like Brodeur, he just looks like a player. Nice bounce, very nice stroke, he's going to be thorn for 4 yrs., but hopefully not this game.



I like the Freudian slip of Begley instead of Betley. Penn fans would be estactic if Betley can have a career like Begs!

On a more serious note, Betley has been a real revelation for Penn in the Ivy League schedule. The greats news is that he's more versatile than I expected - he's got a great stroke, but he also can drive with a floater, he can block shots and rebound. If he hadn't missed the first 9 or 10 games, I think he'd be in the mix for ROY.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2262
1LotteryPick1969
03-06-17 08:15 AM - Post#225202    

  • SRP Said:
a good question to ask coaches or players



There is not really a forum to ask questions like this. In a way, I like the way college ball shields the players--they are students, not professional athletes.

I guess the reason I keep bringing up Kittles is that I really like the idea of having fresh blood on the coaching staff, someone with success in a different college system, and at the professional level, so I keep looking for characteristics of this team that I have not previously seen.

I would suspect Kittles is a candidate to move up the coaching ladder. Even an assistant coaching job at a power conference would look better on his resume.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-06-17 10:14 AM - Post#225216    

I was interested in the players' reaction when the coaches were cutting down the nets Saturday night. There was a fair amount of chaos going on so the players' reaction may have been altered by the chaos. Kittles got players' clapping and yelling similar to the other two assistant coaches -- nothing more or less. The players went crazy when Henderson cut down the nets. If Henderson leaves, which I suspect, it seems unlikely that Kittles will get the job but who knows.

I have my non-IL Philadelphia co-workers giving me a hard time that the Tigers will be playing a road game at the Palestra this weekend. They are trying to have such good fun with the optics of it all. I inform them if the Quakers lose, it will be either due to refs, Chip Kelly or Andy Reid not running the football.

Updated odds on one of the web sites: Tigers 47%, Harvard 21%, Yale 14%, Penn 18%.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-06-17 02:53 PM - Post#225257    

If Mike is correct, MH would be leaving behind a very strong recruiting class. But a salary doubling or more could be an inducement, even though Sydney Johnson may not be the model to follow. (It's been a tough year for PU expat coaches--Thompson's seat is getting hot, Brennan had a terrible offense and a bad record, Johnson still hasn't broken through, Carmody had a weak season. Only Mooney seems to glide along year after year.)
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-06-17 03:20 PM - Post#225261    

  • SRP Said:
I tend to overrate lightening-fast PGs so perhaps my concern about Goodman is unwarranted, but Penn has generally looked better when fast-breaking, so Goodman could have some effect there. My older concerns about half-court blow-bys have diminished as the Tigers have improved a lot at on-ball defense.



I'd focus on the fast break part of this - Penn is going to need a fair share of cheap baskets in transition to have a shot at the upset because the quality of Princeton's D in the half court is going to make it hard to score efficiently there.

Since Princeton rarely turns the ball over, adding Goodman and his 2.7 steal % to that of Howard and Betley increases the odds that they can get the Tigers above their season average and create scoring opportunities before the Princeton D can rotate back, while keeping their own TOs at a minimum. Penn only forced 10 and 12 T0s in the first two matchups without Goodman, good for 15.7 and 21.1% of PU possessions on offense, and compounded that by turning it over at 23 and 24% themselves.

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-06-17 10:17 PM - Post#225336    

I like your positive attitude and let's hope that you got it right. Monmouth for the second straight year lost in the conference playoffs despite their outstanding regular season performance. They lost in the conference semifinal the other night to Siena (16-16) at a neutral court ending a 17 game winning streak. Monmouth was a projected #13 seed.

Let's hope that we do not see them in the NIT Tournament. If so, we should do just fine against them based on Tigers improved play since losing to them by six at Monmouth.

Bottom line for this weekend is that the Tigers need to be on their game -- focused and intense defense.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-07-17 11:23 AM - Post#225384    

  • SRP Said:
Thompson's seat is getting hot,



A Wash Post columnist predicted that JTIII will get one more year.

But we will see soon enough.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-08-17 09:41 PM - Post#225766    

KenPom is offended by the tournament format screwing Princeton:

http://kenpom.com/blog/2017-ivy-league- tournament-...
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-08-17 10:10 PM - Post#225783    

ACC with 9 or 10 bids gives their best teams an incredible and justified competitive advantage but not the IL geniuses - had no foresight -- sad but true. Kenpom good job of calling them out.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-08-17 10:47 PM - Post#225794    

ESPN Commentators describing Bucknell (3) beating Lehigh (1) for the Patriot Title at Bucknell:

"We have to be able to fix this folks, a 1 Seed should never be playing on the road."
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-08-17 11:04 PM - Post#225802    

Bucknell was the one seed - it won the league going away. Lehigh was the 3.

Not sure what those commentators were talking about...
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-08-17 11:38 PM - Post#225811    

They said it! Confused I guess.


bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-08-17 11:53 PM - Post#225815    

Maybe they were thinking about the IL Tournament??
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-09-17 04:25 AM - Post#225830    

So Bucknell, the highest-rated OOC win for the Tigers, punched its ticket, plus I saw a bubble watch for Cal where their win over Princeton was listed as one of their two top-50 wins. Moving up in the world.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-09-17 07:03 AM - Post#225833    

I saw that too---they had the seeding wrong and went off on the unfairness of it based on their own mistake. I guess those budget cuts at ESPN are having their effects.
Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts 586
03-09-17 07:51 AM - Post#225837    

  • mrjames Said:
Bucknell was the one seed - it won the league going away. Lehigh was the 3.

Not sure what those commentators were talking about...



Alternative facts
whitakk
Masters Student
Posts 523
03-09-17 10:36 AM - Post#225851    

Game preview: http://www.nycbuckets.com/2017/03/ivy-league-to urn...
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-09-17 11:32 AM - Post#225871    

The motto "Be careful what you wish for" is something to consider regarding the IL Tournament. I remember prior to Saturday night's game how the Dartmouth faithful were hoping for an upset win over Princeton with Penn and Columbia losing in order to give them the "opportunity" to participate at the NCAA Tournament. Their excitement was understandable especially in light of their amazing road win at Penn the night before and their long drought as to playing at the Big Dance.

When Dartmouth was down 41 pts with 15 minutes to go against a very good but not dominant Tiger team, I was thinking what it would have been like for them to play Kentucky, Gonzaga or North Carolina in round one and what would be the story line after the game regarding the IL.

The notion that it really does not make that much of a difference as to which one of the 4 IL teams getting an automatic bid is at best wishful thinking. It may be true in a given year but over time, the math simply does not add up. After a conversation last Saturday after the game, I believe more than ever that the primary reason for the IL Tournament is $$$.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3580
03-09-17 12:32 PM - Post#225896    

Yes but that same math will have our best team in the NCAA tournament most of the time and I would argue either Princeton or Harvard would show well in the NCAA's this year. There is a 70% chance we get one of those two I believe. Over time, our best teams will win the regular season and the tournament and will show well in the NCAA's.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-09-17 01:18 PM - Post#225899    

  • Quote:
It may be true in a given year but over time, the math simply does not add up.



Take it from someone that has done the math. It can add up. Depends on a lot of factors, but there are very plausible worlds in which it ends up being a good thing for the league.

In general, I think it'll be a slight, net loser over time (whereas annual MTEs would be a noticeable plus), but it's unlikely to be the disaster over time that many seem to think.

Also, I'd expect the short run to really be the issue not the long run. I think there will be some bad beats some years. But over a longer look, we'll be closer to even.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-09-17 03:34 PM - Post#225924    

Time will tell based on results as to what is the proper descriptive term. I have never used or suggested disastrous difference in results between the IL Tournament winner and IL regular season winner but I would also not use the word none or slight.

It is somewhat ironic that in year 1 of the IL Tournament, the 4th seed has roughly a 1 out of 5 chance to play a #2 or #1 seed in the NCAA Tournament.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
03-09-17 04:48 PM - Post#225932    

Definitely worth nothing that this year could, indeed, be one of those disasters.

There's a ~30% chance that our rep is a 16 (mayyyybe a 15, but probably a 16), and that a 13 (or outside 12) will be sent to the NIT.

Harvard would probably sneak to the 14 line, which would be a non-disastrous outcome, but it's more likely that one of Penn or Yale wins the bid than Harvard.

If Princeton had won a few more NC games, it would be a different story, but this is not the best of scenarios for the Ivy Tourney to be facing in year one.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-09-17 06:21 PM - Post#225950    

It's a perfect storm.

The 4th seed has a losing record but is dangerous, high variance and playing on its home court. The 3rd seed is also high variance. The 2nd seed might not be as high variance but it's largely made up of Freshmen so who knows. Meanwhile there is an indisputable regular season champion.

Wouldn't it be awful if that regular season champion gets knocked off?

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-09-17 08:49 PM - Post#225974    

Well, the league office is just going to have to get out their orange-and-black pompoms for these games. If the PU players actually like the concept of the tourney, they now have even more motivation--two wins and the thing is probably secure for quite some time.

It would be fun if the Tigers got hot from outside this weekend and just blew everybody away. But I have a feeling at least one game is going to be a tense grinder, hopefully still a win.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-09-17 08:55 PM - Post#225977    

  • bradley Said:
After a conversation last Saturday after the game, I believe more than ever that the primary reason for the IL Tournament is $$$.



Except that again, Robin Harris publicly disclaimed that last year. Like I said before, I think it's strictly that the other seven schools are afraid they'll never beat Harvard under the previous format.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-09-17 09:01 PM - Post#225979    

  • SRP Said:
KenPom is offended by the tournament format screwing Princeton:

http://kenpom.com/blog/2017-ivy-league- tournament-...



Are they seriously trying to tell me that a team that went undefeated in the league and won by four games is less than 50-50 to win this thing?

Given the way the stats ended up, how many times out of 1000 would Princeton have won the regular season?
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-09-17 10:11 PM - Post#225987    

Yes. Less than 50-50 (although close). Nipping a pretty good Harvard team twice does not cause the models to be especially optimistic.
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
03-09-17 10:15 PM - Post#225988    

Give me a break. If this wasn't about making money, why are they charging $75 a ticket? Real "family friendly" there Robin!
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-09-17 10:56 PM - Post#225996    

In your quacker dreams
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-10-17 12:04 AM - Post#226005    

Article extremely critical of playing the tournament at the Palestra:
http://sportzedge.com/2017/03/08/penns-pale stra-is...

"#4 seed Penn, with a losing record, is getting an undeserved home court advantage over the undefeated league champion, Princeton, This is a farce."

"Yes, the Palestra is historic and revered as a building. But if it is also a Cathedral, then it is Penn’s Cathedral, not Princeton’s, Harvard’s, Yale’s, or Brown’s, the other colleges that will be Penn’s guests. Since it is Penn’s Cathedral, then the Penn teams have the advantage in their games. Every team is more comfortable in its own “house of worship.”"

TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-10-17 08:58 AM - Post#226018    

Those critical of the Palestra neglect to point out how much better and bigger it is than any other arena in the league.

And if this amazingly great Princeton team can't beat a team with a losing record - in an arena where it's won over and over again - then how is it going to fare in the dance?

Think of it as a warm up.

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-10-17 09:30 AM - Post#226019    

Let's hope that it is not a "perfect storm" for the reputation and sake of the league. The introduction of the 4th team to a league tournament format based on past historical performance introduced an element of risk. Throw on top playing the initial game at the Palestra, Robin Wolfe and her merrymen added some further risk.

The good news is that ESPN on their website is showing Princeton as the home team based on their #1 seeding so maybe Weisz, Cook and crew can simply imagine.

Robin -- let's hope that you are getting some honest feedback. You need it.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-10-17 09:32 AM - Post#226020    

Think of the bright side - if you lose then you have a built in excuse that we can talk about for years!

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-10-17 09:46 AM - Post#226022    

Never thought of looking at it that way. Weisz and Cook can share the story with their grandchildren regarding the inaugural IL Tournament.

Rather than focusing on the negative, just think of the upside if Penn wins the IL Tournament and knocks off Gonzaga in the opening round. Robin and her merrymen will be delirious with joy with a simple "I told you so".
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 09:59 AM - Post#226024    

That's it! Princeton has nothing to complain about. They get to wear the home uniforms.
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
03-10-17 10:18 AM - Post#226029    

You won't get much sympathy from the Penn fans after you lose tomorrow. Most of us have grown to love the tournament and having it at the Palestra.

So if Weisz and Cook never get to play an NCAA tournament game don't blame us. It was your coaches and administration that agreed to play this at the Palestra.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 10:21 AM - Post#226031    

No whining here. This is our "Deal with it!" moment.

But, after this year, whatever happens, never again!
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-10-17 10:25 AM - Post#226033    

Given my proximity to Princeton I'm OK alternating between the Palestra and Jadwin.

You want the even or odd years?

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 10:38 AM - Post#226036    

Neither. As my wife just said to me, "I thought that the Ivy League was supposed to be smart".

(She's worried about her Terps on the Big (how many?).
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 10:42 AM - Post#226039    

You want a college basketball move done for the money? Maryland to the Big Whatever. Double the money of the ACC with none of the rivalries.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-10-17 11:41 AM - Post#226060    

I remember at Game #6 at the Palestra (90th Anniversary), the Quakers had difficulty getting off shots without time expiring. That day, it looked like "men against boys". Even in the warm ups, two Penn fans commented the Tigers are taller, stronger and more athletic.

Best strategy for the Tigers is to smother Penn defensively -- do not let them breathe. Gladson played too many minutes that night and Rothschild did exploit him. Penn's defense will probably force the Tigers to make 3 pointers.

Who knows what you get with the Penn team --- the team that beat Harvard or the one that lost to Dartmouth at home the night before. Tigers need to play confident yet incredibly intense and if they get the opportunity close them out as soon as you can unlike the first game at Jadwin.


penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
03-10-17 12:33 PM - Post#226070    

Growing up, the Big East teams were, like, you know, concentrated on the East Coast while the Big Ten teams were all in the Midwest.

Nowadays, there's very little to distinguish between the two conferences, at least geographically speaking.

  • palestra38 Said:
You want a college basketball move done for the money? Maryland to the Big Whatever. Double the money of the ACC with none of the rivalries.



Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 12:41 PM - Post#226074    


May some Penn fans one day be cursed with a sense of empathy!
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 12:45 PM - Post#226075    

If you've been reading, most Penn fans are old-school about the tournament (although that skews older--the younger ones with no memories of the true glory days are friendlier to the tournament).

So we sympathize with you. As far as Empathy goes...it's tough to feel empathy for anyone from Princeton.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-10-17 01:00 PM - Post#226080    

I'm a Jersey boy. Empathy is something we read about in text books but don't have personal experience with.

If Princeton is an exception then we gotta build a wall around it. Pronto.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 01:07 PM - Post#226083    

Well...situational empathy.

And true, P38, for all the needling and joking back and forth, you are one of several analytic posters from each of the rivals able occasionally to rise above our institutional prejudices to comment on a situation. Rivals as we all are, we still have to strive for high standards and an essential fairness within the IL. That's what, IMHO, sets us apart from the rest of college sports.

Whatever the outcome of the tourneys, I'll at least grudgingly support the winners. Much as a few of us hate to admit, we have a lot more that unites us than divides us.

I hope that it turns out to be a great tournament. Ergo, GO TIGERS!


palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 01:23 PM - Post#226090    

Awwww shucks.

True gentlemanly affection. Now I know why I went Ivy (if only barely in your eyes). : )
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
03-10-17 01:33 PM - Post#226097    

  • Tiger69 Said:
Rivals as we all are, we still have to strive for high standards and an essential fairness within the IL.




Meaning H-Y or the occasional H-Y-P and then a free for all among the rest. This is the IL ideal of essential fairness.



palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 01:43 PM - Post#226101    

That's football. In basketball, it always was the best gets to move on--I respect that. If Harvard wants to use its brand to upgrade it's basketball program and hire a million dollar coach, I don't begrudge them for that.

I do begrudge Harvard and Yale insisting that their football game end the Ivy season as if the other 6 don't matter.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21086
03-10-17 01:45 PM - Post#226102    

Meanwhile, having this tourney now robs Ivy basketball of having the P-P game being the final one of the regular season.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 01:46 PM - Post#226103    

Not of our making. Lean on the Trumpster to drop a few Bil $ on Warton (sp) and you, too, can join the frat. Penn, like PHY, should have plenty of ties to big money. Just be a little more loving to the old school!
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-10-17 01:49 PM - Post#226104    

Sort of. Tomorrow's P-P game is the final game of the season for one, and the penultimate final for the other.


palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 01:56 PM - Post#226107    

Trump has never made a sizeable (at least according to his supposed wealth) donation to Penn.

However, Penn's wealth has skyrocketed under the current Penn administration, which is why Amy Gutmann is now serving the longest Penn Presidency in modern history. So they're doing very well. If they wanted to, say, endow and restore a Division 1 hockey program, they easily could do it.

There is a difference however, in providing financial aid to 20,000 students as opposed to 5000....and Princeton's student body is, on the whole, wealthier and needs less aid. So if financial aid to athletes is based on giving financial aid to everyone, it's not exactly a level playing field for either the smaller, less wealthy schools (Dartmouth and Brown) or the larger schools (Penn and Cornell).
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-10-17 02:09 PM - Post#226110    

Any chance to beat Penn three times in one season can't be all bad, especially if two of those wins occur on special Palestra occasions (anniversary and first Ivy tournament game). Think of it as establishing a new tradition for Princeton, or a satellite home court.

And if the Tigers finish the job, going 16-0 will establish a standard that won't be surpassed until the league changes the tourney format again to let in more teams.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 02:17 PM - Post#226112    

There you go----making lemonade out of lemons
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 02:47 PM - Post#226120    

Agreed on dilemma for BCCD. But while Penn has a larger student body, they also have a much larger alumni population from whom to draw. No sympathy here.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-10-17 02:48 PM - Post#226121    

SRP -- If possible, please continue to post game activity over the weekend -- always an interesting read. Look forward to attending Game #1 of the NCAA Tournament or NIT after the dark cloud of the IL Tournament has lifted. I highly doubt it but hopefully, common sense returns.

Go Tigers!


Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 02:54 PM - Post#226122    

Cheeky. You are assuming that in its THIRD opportunity, h/y will finally succeed against the Tigers. Of course, it's a different deal in the unlikely event that the quackers are the opponent.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 03:05 PM - Post#226124    

Of course, both Harvard and Yale lost in their most recent game against Penn.


Well, enough of this. I hope a lot of Princeton people come down for the game, if for no other reason, to ensure a good atmosphere for the game.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 03:10 PM - Post#226125    

I would love to now. But the flights out of Guaymas suck
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 03:18 PM - Post#226128    

I had to look up that airport---it's on the Mainland of Mexico---I thought you were near Cabo.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 03:59 PM - Post#226134    

Across the Sea of Cortez on the west coast of the mainland. San Carlos is a pleasant ex-pat community of Canadians and Gringos, a relatively modest and unpretentious satellite of deep water Mexican port city of Guaymas . I call San Carlos a bottom feeders' paradise for its low prices and plentiful available housing arising from over development in the early 2000s and exacerbated by paranoia about travel to Mexico. Most of us who winter here can't believe our good fortune and feed the rumors about the drug cartels. I like to tell friends that there are drugs everywhere -- mostly Viagra. This is also a popular summer resort for native Mexicans during the oppressive summer months when most of us gringos/Canadians head north. No really ostentatious wealth here and few "gated" communities yet, except for a few former motor home parks. Good relations and cooperation with the local Mexicans who, as a group, are a warm and generous people. Of course, by contrast, all of us Canadians/Gringoes son ricos.

Trumpists need not apply. You would not like/be liked here
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 04:06 PM - Post#226136    

Let me guess---you have regular pickup basketball games and everyone knows the Princeton offense.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-10-17 04:13 PM - Post#226138    

OK, I'm jealous. I've been to Mexico twice and would love to visit again.

How is the food where you are? Real Mexican cuisine is the most underrated on the planet.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 04:21 PM - Post#226142    

I only wish I could still play hoops! But, I was NEVER any good. But, if you are referring to the pace, even that would be too fast for me.

But, with ample accessible coastline, both rocky and sandy, to explore, rugged volcanic desert mountains just inland to hike, the clear Sea of Cortez to snorkel, sail, or fish in, and, dirt cheap local taquila, fish, fruit and vegetables, who needs basketball?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-10-17 04:28 PM - Post#226143    

Sounds beautiful---I spent a week in the Sonoran desert a few months ago (near Tuscon) so I know its beauty.

But with all due respect, I need basketball---otherwise, do you think I would have kept my seats at the Palestra over the last 10 years of bad teams?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 08:42 PM - Post#226167    

I admire your loyalty ... or stubbornness. I switched to hockey and women's bball in the Scott years.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-10-17 09:35 PM - Post#226172    

Com'on T69, how much snorkeling do you really do?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-10-17 09:49 PM - Post#226174    

From one carnivore to another, OB, I went snorkeling off my kayak one day earlier this week. The water is still pretty cold this time of year -- mid 60s -- but a wet suit makes it "refreshing". It is a lot easier on an arthritic body than pounding around the rugged mountains near here. I like that, too. But, I think that the time for a new pair of knees may be fast approaching.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-10-17 10:40 PM - Post#226179    

Some pretty good stuff here from MH about the turning points in the season and how the team recovered from the losses of Brase and Caruso with its newer, slower, more defensive style.

http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ssf/2017/03/p...

And here's lots of happy talk by the Tigers about the wonders of the conference tourney:
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/col lege/...
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2262
1LotteryPick1969
03-11-17 07:48 AM - Post#226190    

Thanks for the links!
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-23-17 02:16 PM - Post#227997    

  • SRP Said:
(It's been a tough year for PU expat coaches--Thompson's seat is getting hot..



Thompson not returning to GU: JT III out at Georgetown

Some speculation GU will make a run at Amaker. Georgetown interest in Amaker?

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-23-17 05:05 PM - Post#228028    

Yeah, the wheels seemed to come off a bit with lots of players transferring out and the results on the court not being there. It made me laugh a little bit reading some of the articles and comments attributing his problems to the "Princeton offense." In the small samples over the last couple of years I've seen, they looked nothing like a traditional System team; frankly, they didn't seem to have much of an offensive identity at all. If I had to guess I'd say that JTIII is really more of a defensive coach and he got into a situation where he wasn't playing enough guys who could shoot, which makes any kind of spread-the-floor approach problematic.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-23-17 05:36 PM - Post#228034    

Yes, the knee-jerk references to the Princeton Offense heard regularly, and dismissively, from Georgetowners are pretty laughable. My GU friends mean well, but mostly they have no real idea what the Offense is, they just "know" it doesn't work for their "superior" level of play and expectations.

My impression is that JT3's players did not have much commitment. Look at this gif - how often would you ever see this from a Tiger player:

You passing to me? To ME?

Their defense - which to me means player interest - is to quote Charles Barkely, "turrible."

1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2262
1LotteryPick1969
03-23-17 05:37 PM - Post#228036    

  • sparman Said:
  • SRP Said:
(It's been a tough year for PU expat coaches--Thompson's seat is getting hot..



Thompson not returning to GU: JT III out at Georgetown

Some speculation GU will make a run at Amaker. Georgetown interest in Amaker?




Amaker might jump for 3.6 million a year. And of course a job in the medical system for his wife. Oh, and a membership at Congressional.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-23-17 11:03 PM - Post#228055    

As long as he doesn't join my club, although we already do have some former H bball players. So far we have avoided having the former pres join - I wouldn't object personally, but it's a logistical nightmare to accommodate the security requirements.
1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts 2262
1LotteryPick1969
03-24-17 07:29 AM - Post#228059    

  • sparman Said:
As long as he doesn't join my club



When it comes to club membership, I'm with Groucho.

sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-25-17 10:04 AM - Post#228106    

A complimentary article on JT3:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joh...
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-25-17 02:46 PM - Post#228118    

Well, sort of..."when he faced a moderately tough foe under pressure and all his coaching chops were in play, he was beaten too often with Hoyas teams that tended to look flat early or tense late."
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-25-17 05:02 PM - Post#228127    


No question that he lost to some teams that he had no business losing to. Especially in the past few years...
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-25-17 09:36 PM - Post#228134    

"His record stands just fine on its own."

Penn fans at least have bona fides to discuss basketball. The idea of a Dartmouth fan presuming to critique another ivy bball coach is just silly.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-25-17 11:28 PM - Post#228135    

Well, one day when I had nothing better to do, I wandered over to the Dartmouth board and was surprised to read some pretty vicious posts by a couple of Vermouth (love that!) fans ripping their own coach and players. We have "mud season" about this time of year in Colorado. It must infect New Hampshire, too.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-26-17 08:49 AM - Post#228137    

Agreed on the Dartmouth statements----they actually thought it was a good idea to fire Cormier, a truly great coach who had just recruited probably the best talent in years (if not ever). My guess is that they would have been in the playoff had he stayed.


Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-27-17 09:14 AM - Post#228187    

  • sparman Said:


Penn fans at least have bona fides to discuss basketball. The idea of a Dartmouth fan presuming to critique another ivy bball coach is just silly.



JTIII lost a Big East job, not an Ivy job.

Or does a stop at an Ivy school perpetually inoculate a coach from comment except from Penn fans on this Board?
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-27-17 09:16 AM - Post#228188    

  • palestra38 Said:
My guess is that they would have been in the playoff had he stayed.





That's not exactly going out on a huge limb, given that we were still alive for a tourney bid going into the last game.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32687
03-27-17 09:44 AM - Post#228191    

You guys finished last and it would have taken a miracle to get in the last weekend. Granted, you beat Penn twice, but your former coach was the best game coach in the league, had recruited the best freshman and got fired because of the AD's ego. Bad move.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-27-17 09:50 AM - Post#228192    

  • palestra38 Said:
You guys finished last and it would have taken a miracle to get in the last weekend. Granted, you beat Penn twice, but your former coach was the best game coach in the league, had recruited the best freshman and got fired because of the AD's ego. Bad move.



Three things needed to happen for Dartmouth to get in-- Dartmouth beating Princeton, Harvard beating Penn, and Yale beating Columbia.

The third happened. The second was supposed to happen, but didn't.

I suppose Dartmouth beating Princeton would have been a "miracle." But stranger things have happened.

As for Cormier, it's been discussed to death on the Dartmouth board. My own opinion, in case you missed it was that it wasn't an obvious call. Both retaining Cormer and firing him would have been defensible. We will find out whether it was the "right" decision in three more years when we see what McLaughlin has done.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-27-17 10:17 AM - Post#228196    

  • palestra38 Said:
You guys finished last and it would have taken a miracle to get in the last weekend. Granted, you beat Penn twice, but your former coach was the best game coach in the league, had recruited the best freshman and got fired because of the AD's ego. Bad move.



And if there's anything Penn fans know something about, it's the destructive effects of ADs with out-of-control egos. (Also, the destructive effects of Cheeto-headed Wharton grads with out-of-control egos.)
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-27-17 11:02 AM - Post#228198    

In your case, yes.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-27-17 11:05 AM - Post#228199    

  • sparman Said:
In your case, yes.



I would be very, very surprised if you follow Georgetown basketball more than I do.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-27-17 02:14 PM - Post#228207    

I suggest the you consider some other more rewarding ways to spend your time.

Which reminds me, your comment earlier about the failure of us non-Penn or non-D fans to be more critical of our players and coaches. I confess that any criticism from me (and some others?) would only betray a complete lack of playing or coaching experience. Not to say there aren't a few very knowledgeable and experienced posters out there (e.g. Steve Danley on Penn boards) whose comments are insightful and interesting to read. But, their criticisms are analytic and professional and not personal.

There are, sadly, a few critics at the far end of the spectrum whose remarks aimed at players and coaches are visceral and accusatory. Those posts tell us more about the writer than the subject. I choose to credit Ivy athletes for their devotion and sacrifice. I suspect that the only critics they (players and coaches) respond to are themselves, their teammates and their peers. We fans are just noise. They owe us nothing.

But, it's a free country. Angry fans, post on! Your fellow angry fans are the only ones listening.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-27-17 02:30 PM - Post#228210    

  • Tiger69 Said:
I suggest the you consider some other more rewarding ways to spend your time.





You have 1945 posts on this Board.

I have 235.

You really want to go there?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-27-17 03:17 PM - Post#228212    

Touché. Although, as is often the case, I failed to make my points clear to you.

I am a retired geezer with lots of time on my hands. Those many posts go back some time. You seem to be about 25+- my junior and a relative newcomer to these discussions. For all I know, you are a retired rich guy, also with lots of free time on your hands.

However, your implication is valid -- I DO spend far too much time on these boards, occasionally having interesting and/or humorous exchanges with fellow fans. But, I must cut back my windy responses to others whose posts seem annoying, repetitive or unreflective. Peace. Hasta luego.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-27-17 04:29 PM - Post#228228    

Damn!



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