Select "print" from your browser's "File" menu.

Back to Post
Username Post: Men vs. Princeton
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 02:22 PM - Post#226262    

Well, the referring seems reasonably competent, at least. Couple of horrible calls in women's game, but not many, and they went both ways. If i was seeing the scoreboard properly, Harvard flew down. They are going to have it in New England eventually.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 02:52 PM - Post#226265    

At least 3-4 uncalled travels so far on Princeton. It's the ryan Betley show and we're up 1.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:01 PM - Post#226266    

The awful refereeing continues. Where is everyone?
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 03:02 PM - Post#226267    

Dear Lord, what's a pacifist got to do to get a call here?
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

91Quake
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-11-17 03:06 PM - Post#226268    

There it is. They finally call the moving pick!
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:14 PM - Post#226270    

AJ again missing bunnies. Can't happen. 2 point game.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 03:21 PM - Post#226271    

We need to cut down the offensive mistakes.

Up three at the half? I'll take it. Now we get to see who's better at making adjustments.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 03:22 PM - Post#226272    

Yeah,gotta crush the windpipe when your foot's on it. I think we're in trouble in the second half.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 03:25 PM - Post#226273    

We'll see. I look for Howard to step up in the second half. If he and Betley can keep the perimeter defenders occupied, that gives AJ more room to maneuver in the post.

Pinceton's playing small, and that has given Brodeur some opportunities down low.

I like starting Goodman, in spite of a couple of freshman mistakes in the lane.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:28 PM - Post#226275    

The travel on AJ that took away a Devon 3 really hurt. Princeton will come out hot from 3 so we need to match it. Where is everyone? Just watching?
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 03:31 PM - Post#226279    

Hope so May have to go sailing tomorrow IF second half doesn't go better. Penn seems to have solved a few problems from earlier games. We aren't able to move the ball around as well. But, Tigers are resilient.

GO TIGERS!
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
03-11-17 03:32 PM - Post#226280    

Error in box score:

Princeton 7 turnovers, Penn 6 (not 8-5).
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-11-17 03:40 PM - Post#226286    

devon goodman is 1-10. He's not a shooting guard. for the love of god, bud, slow down.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 03:43 PM - Post#226290    

Yeah, I'd like to see him pass up some of those shots.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 03:44 PM - Post#226291    

All right, looking good so far. Let's see if they can hold up against the run that is coming
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:46 PM - Post#226292    

Please tell me where that was a foul? AJ has picked up two cheapies this half.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 03:47 PM - Post#226293    

Princeton's defense doesn't seem as focused today. We're putting pressure on them with our ability to make plays in ways we weren't able to earlier in the season.

I like the fact that AJ has gotten better at passing out of the double team, or being patient enough to get a look at the rim.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:48 PM - Post#226294    

Stephens misses two but we give up a huge o board and it's 8.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:49 PM - Post#226295    

AJ mugged. No call. Transition slam. Here we go.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 03:51 PM - Post#226296    

We have been to the line once today by the way. Once. Darnell airballs an easy bunny, now a 3 and it's 3.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 03:57 PM - Post#226301    

Too many mental mistakes on offense. We're giving them opportunities, and the momentum has shifted.
91Quake
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-11-17 03:58 PM - Post#226302    

Can we get Foreman out of the game? He looks and is playing tight.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:00 PM - Post#226305    

5-1 in fouls. And was just as bad first half. Give me a break. Need a basket and can't get one.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 04:02 PM - Post#226307    

3 on AJ. This is a problem.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 04:05 PM - Post#226310    

Great, the Tigers are shooting the whole rest of the half
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:06 PM - Post#226311    

Who wants to be a hero? They'll need at least one Jackson 3, probably two. Princeton d is now suffocating.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 04:08 PM - Post#226313    

We're letting their ball pressure and denial speed us up. It sounds counterintuitive, but we need to find a way to be patient.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:17 PM - Post#226315    

Come on AJ. And where is the help?!?!
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:23 PM - Post#226319    

Betleys 3 going in and out...no words. And now Princeton gets a parade to the line.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 04:24 PM - Post#226321    

Oy. That was a good shot, though.

Smart time out here. Let's see if they have a play that works.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:31 PM - Post#226326    

These end of game and shot calls are getting worse. What the eff Steve?!?! Howard.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 04:33 PM - Post#226328    

Anybody but Foreman. Should have gone to Howard or Betley.

Now we need to regroup.
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
03-11-17 04:33 PM - Post#226329    

Ryan Betley is wide open in the corner and selfish Darnell Foreman air balls his shot.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:36 PM - Post#226331    

We had it. We #%$@ had it. This one hurts.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 04:36 PM - Post#226332    

I think we're done.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:37 PM - Post#226334    

Somehow we don't get fouled on all of these drives. Funny.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 04:40 PM - Post#226337    

Someone should tell the students attending their first games that you don't chant I believe that we will win unless it's sealed.
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 04:43 PM - Post#226338    

Typical blind Ivy refs.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 04:51 PM - Post#226343    

Whiner. Your. Court. 6-8. Third chance. You deserved to lose.

But, nice play by your team.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 04:55 PM - Post#226345    

  • weinhauers_ghost Said:
Typical blind Ivy refs.



One of the fundamental laws of refereeing is that all other things being equal, the better team gets the calls. We get better with Simmons et al. next year, we'll start getting some calls.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 04:56 PM - Post#226346    

Oh, and THE TOURNEY STILL SUCKS!
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-11-17 05:01 PM - Post#226350    

Well I was here. We all in our section saw both Goodman and Foreman come open on final inbound in regulation, and guy next to me said before it came in "he's giving it to Darnell."

Thus ended the tale.

UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts 1117
UPIA1968
03-11-17 05:04 PM - Post#226352    

This team had the big man, the wing guard and the small forward but no reliable point guard. Would stole this game if Matt makes those free throws or if Ryan make that three. Still it was obvious who had the better athletes. Princeton won it on the line 19 point to 4. As my said elsewhere the refs know who has the athletes.

Still Ryan came to play again. Brodeur is the real thing. This ensemble came within one point of beating all the favorites. If we add three players of Devon, AJ and Ryan next year the team will content. Clearly the process is working.
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
03-11-17 05:05 PM - Post#226354    

Man, does this one hurt. We had it. A chance to be one win away from the NCAA Tournament and to demolish Princeton's season.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 05:05 PM - Post#226355    

I just don't understand it. I really don't. If the goal is to let someone create one on one and just chuck it, why not Matt??
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-11-17 05:10 PM - Post#226359    

Despite the whining on both the PU and UP Boards, the game was well called.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-11-17 05:11 PM - Post#226360    

And on that note, this place emptied out quick, and judging from the orange, a lot of the people still here are Tiger fans wanting to know who they'll play. I don't think tomorrow's crowd will be nearly as good.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 05:17 PM - Post#226365    

How in the world could Princeton fans be whining when they won at the line?? I saw one bad call on Weisz, the one where Ryan was given act of shooting (more than offset by the layups we lost on late whistles) and one bad possession call.

Did Princeton have more than one turnover the last 35 minutes?

That Betley shot will be rattling in my head for the next 6 months. Speaking of Betley, who would have thought 3 months ago that our best Freshman at the conclusion of the season would be Ryan and not AJ? That kid is a total gamechanger.
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-11-17 05:19 PM - Post#226366    

Yeah, maybe 2200 max in here right now.

Corners were empty for the Ps game.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 05:19 PM - Post#226367    

For sure. I noticed that on the Princeton boards there was also a lot of whining. Good reffing or bad, you can always depend on it. But, IMO, Penn, or at least a couple of select fans, truly deserve the prize for Loudest and Most Persistent Whiner. I liked a Penn post about a week ago in which the writer acknowledged that he enjoyed fan insults. The same goes for whining.
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-11-17 05:28 PM - Post#226368    

H & Y each have at most 25 in the student sections. #IvySadness

sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-11-17 05:34 PM - Post#226370    

Yes, very noticeable.
roarlionroar
Freshman
Posts 55
03-11-17 05:34 PM - Post#226371    

Lots of whining going on
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-11-17 05:38 PM - Post#226372    

Since when is it whining to comment on a fact? The reduced attendance at Y-H game is undeniable.
roarlionroar
Freshman
Posts 55
03-11-17 05:50 PM - Post#226376    

Wasn't referring to your comment about attendance. Should've been clearer.

"Typical blind ivy refs"... what a joke. The game was called fairly.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-11-17 05:52 PM - Post#226377    

I was logging the calls as they went by, not tracking the accumulation or trying to find all the bad calls for both sides. At no point did I make a global complaint about the officiating causing the Princeton's problems. Clearly, PU as a team that rarely fouls and that was driving a lot was going to get more foul shots. But even that last foul drawn by Cannady when he was triple-teamed was iffy.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 07:32 PM - Post#226397    

To hear fans of a beaten opponent whine a lot always adds spring to my step. I owe them thanks. Makes the win a little more satisfying
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
03-11-17 08:10 PM - Post#226404    

  • Tiger69 Said:
To hear fans of a beaten opponent whine a lot always adds spring to my step. I owe them thanks. Makes the win a little more satisfying



No whining here, just some major disappointment. Thought we had you. I'm also anti-tournament, also think it's nuts to play the whole tournament on anyone's home court - but since this was a done deal I would have loved to see Penn trash your season.
BTW - I like you better this way than when you're gushing about hiking, snorkeling and Mexican food.

Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts 586
03-11-17 08:28 PM - Post#226407    

I'm in Mexico and still think penn got jobbed
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts 2125
03-11-17 09:09 PM - Post#226408    

The play that killed us was Stephens' putback of the missed shot at the end of regulation, which tied the score. No one blocked him out. I'm not even sure any of Penn's players knew he was rolling to the rim.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-11-17 09:18 PM - Post#226410    

AJ and Betley went after the shot and Darnell didn't look to body anyone. Couldn't have been easier. I sadly saw the replay of the final shot and as was noted before, to say Betley was open would be an understatement. I'm not sure how Darnell became our ball in his hands with the game on the line guy but that has to change next year.

That Betley dagger three was 3/4 of the way down. I'm still seeing it. Sigh. And as I explained to my son, the safety school chants from the hideous band, among others, are why we will ALWAYS hate Princeton. Go Bulldogs.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-11-17 09:29 PM - Post#226411    

I was rooting for Penn, but the refs did not change the outcome. I might, however trade Mehta for Betley. That said, I think the Brown women may have a better shot at the top than the men under current Ivy policies.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 10:08 PM - Post#226414    

Fair enough. Next time I'll put a separate topic on the Pton site under Travel tips for Ivy bball geezers.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
03-11-17 10:20 PM - Post#226415    

I can recommend an Anger Management Counselor for you For your sake I hope that your bright child doesn't rebel and apply to Princeton.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
03-12-17 12:25 AM - Post#226435    

Agreed. Your women with only 2 upperclass players, who aren't vital are going to create some havoc in the next couple of years.
Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts 586
03-12-17 08:50 AM - Post#226460    

I would like to see a replay of the charge called on Betley
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-12-17 09:26 AM - Post#226463    

The refereeing was very fair with a couple of bad calls both ways. Far better refs than the usual Saturday Ivy refs.

All we had to do was hit a foul shot....
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-12-17 09:31 AM - Post#226465    

Oh come on T69----after a game like that, you just give a big sigh of relief and congratulate the other team, not give a dig. You had the game given to you after it was lost.

But I have mixed feelings because I think it would be bad for the league if Princeton lost this year. It would bother me far more if Penn were in Princeton's situation and blew a playoff game.

I am extremely optimistic about where the program is going....finally. We have 3 impact freshmen and the return of Woods. I would be disappointed next year with anything less than 9-5 in the League.


Don't blow it today, Princeton.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-12-17 11:11 AM - Post#226472    

I'd say that so far we have two impact freshmen. Brodeur and Betley clearly have all-conference potential. As for Goodman, I'm optimistic, but not yet sold. Hopefully, with a good offseason, he'll come back as a sophomore showing better judgement and control. If so, then we've got another keeper. Otherwise, point guard remains a weakness for this team.

But we're still in a much better place than a year ago. At that time, I didn't think we had any returning players who had all Ivy potential (although it turns out we actually did have one in Matt Howard). Now we have two, and probably have another one or two entering in the fall. We also have a head coach and staff who clearly know what they're doing. And the quality of recruits we're pursuing is impressive. So yes, I'm also optimistic about the direction of the program.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-12-17 12:06 PM - Post#226483    

You don't mention Woods. As I said before, he was clearly ahead of Foreman before he was suspended. I think he will be a major contributor next year.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-12-17 12:18 PM - Post#226488    

I really hope you're right. I don't think anybody played the point consistently well this season. Foreman and Goodman both had flashes of brilliance, C. Wood has his strengths and weaknesses. So we really need somebody to step up. I worry that after so much time away from D1 competition A. Woods will have lost his edge, but I'd love to be proven wrong about that. I also gather that Jelani Williams might be our point guard of the future.

Another thing I wonder about next season: will we get another Matt Howard story? Somebody who steps up his game and becomes an unexpected star? There are a lot of possibles: Wood, Woods, Matt MacDonald, Jackson Donahue, Ray Jerome, Sam Jones and Tyler Hamilton to name a few.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21085
03-12-17 12:32 PM - Post#226495    

  • palestra38 Said:

Don't blow it today, Princeton.



Actually, I'm quite fine if they do, thank you very much.

Especially since they won't be able to blame this one on the vaunted home court advantage.

PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-12-17 12:55 PM - Post#226507    

Goodman is the best defensive guard we have and his defense on Cannady allowed Donahue to put Darnell on Weiss which was a major reason we led most of the game in my opinion. Goodman is a D1 defensive player just need to add more to his game in the other end.
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-12-17 12:59 PM - Post#226509    

I will say this about the homecourt advantage:

I think it's still a pretty big deal for the program. The place doesn't fill as often, but when it's rocking we seem to get our fair share of upsets or play over our heads.

As for the game, was pretty proud of them and the program. It takes a lot to get through the adversity of an 0-6 start and still make the season something positive.

And that's with big holes in the team still -- there's really no perimeter threat who can create at the end of the shot clock (would have loved to have seen Betley be a little more aggressive in the 2nd half in those situations -- but asking a lot of a frosh). The Darnell/Goodman forces are in part because they're stuck in situations beyond their abilities (to create) right now.

Maybe Jelani/Scott help with that (they've certainly given my DeMatha Stags a tough time over the last year or two, from what I've heard).

On the bright side, Goodman pushing the ball gets us some easy baskets for what feels like the first time in a long while. And AJ is a program-changer.
SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts 1150
03-12-17 01:02 PM - Post#226510    

While I hope for the best, I also worry about how well Woods will be able to play after (essentially) two years of not playing against this level of competition. I think that this may be most evident early in the season as rust is a normal consequence of such a layoff. While I am hopeful for Jelani Williams as well, depending on the exact nature of his injury, it's often more than a year before an athlete can come back from an ACL tear and perform at his pre-injury level. With that said, I am hopeful that by the Ivy season, both of those guys can play at a high level because there are some REALLY GOOD point guards in the Ivies now (Aiken, Oni, Smith among them).

OTOH, I am greatly encouraged by the progress I saw this year - in the level of player we have and are going after, the heart of these guys and the recognition of how good defense propels an offense. Just SAD that I have to wait 8 months to see this team in action again.
Penn7277
PhD Student
Posts 1365
03-12-17 01:26 PM - Post#226518    

I know I'm chiming in late here; since the game, I have been busy and unable to get to the board. It is somehow fitting (and this is not a knock directed at Matt; Penn obviously wouldn't have been close enough for a foul shot to get the lead at the end without him), but someone needs to figure out how to improve the foul shooting on this team. Ryan can obviously do it, but he is really the only dependable foul shooter on the team. Maybe get Rick Barry to teach them. I believe this was mentioned earlier in the season. While the missed bunnies throughout the game hurt, the foul shots that have been missed cost Penn at least a couple of games, including this one.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-12-17 04:31 PM - Post#226554    

While some of Goodman's weaknesses were on display yesterday, we're simply a different team with him playing big minutes like that. He plays too fast at times, etc., but he also rebounds pretty well for a guard of his size and is active around the basket when he gets overly aggressive trying to get to the hoop. I've been happy with his development. My prediction (still) is that he'll start next year.
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts 6997
Chip Bayers
03-12-17 04:35 PM - Post#226556    

I did hear yesterday from some of the more knowledgeable season-ticket holders I sat near that Woods has been playing well in practice and that SD has been very complimentary of what he has showed.

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-12-17 04:50 PM - Post#226561    

The related thing that struck me both yesterday and today is what a good job Princeton does of getting Cannady the ball in fouling situations. Nobody on either Penn or Yale seemed to be able to foul anyone else. maybe we can get there with Betley eventually.

My general observation of the event, though, is that I loved it. Hopefully, it grows into something more. Thought the atmosphere for Penn-Princeton was great. Do it when the students are around next time, and it will be awesome. I think the Palestra is the place to do it, too, but obviously I'm biased.

Going back to the game itself, i thought the most important and interesting part of the game was the 3.5 scoreless minutes when Penn led 47-45. Just an all-out defensive war once Princeton extended the defense and really put the clamps on. But you could feel that they just couldn't get over the hump, as Penn kept defending like crazy as well.

The one thing I thought Penn failed to recognize was that, with the pressure Princeton was putting on in the 2nd half, the open guys were actually in front of the guy with the ball. We got it to AJ some, but there were at least 3 mini pick and rolls wher AJ came off unguarded and Foreman or Goodman simply dribbled away without even looking at him. We seemed to be looking for safe perimeter passes that were no longer there. I thought Princeton established that they would pack the middle to deny AJ in the first half, and then depended on that perception in the 2nd half.

The other thing I came away thinking is that Myles Stephens is awesome. He was just too much for us in the end (and too much for Yale today). I know he was Mike James pick for POY this year, and I came away thinking there will be one in his future.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-12-17 04:53 PM - Post#226562    

Well, I'm not discounting Woods in my prediction.
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts 1117
UPIA1968
03-12-17 09:40 PM - Post#226658    

I saw the replay in slow mo. It was a good call.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-13-17 10:24 AM - Post#226719    

  • SomeGuy Said:
While some of Goodman's weaknesses were on display yesterday, we're simply a different team with him playing big minutes like that. He plays too fast at times, etc., but he also rebounds pretty well for a guard of his size and is active around the basket when he gets overly aggressive trying to get to the hoop. I've been happy with his development. My prediction (still) is that he'll start next year.


Thanks for posting your observations about the game Saturday. You saw some things going on with the Penn offense that I missed.
As for Goodman, hard to know without seeing Woods, but I expect he will start against some teams where he matches up well defensively; e.g. Columbia and Harvard.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-13-17 10:32 AM - Post#226722    

Goodman clearly has speed, athleticism and aggressiveness in abundance. What he currently seems to lack is judgement (something you sort of need in a point guard). There's a pretty good chance he'll develop that as a sophomore. If he does, he's probably our point guard.

One other thing-- S. Donahue is probably as unexcited as I am about the quality of play the team has been getting at the point. If you look at who Verbal Commits says he's recruiting, he's clearly in the market for a top-notch player at that position.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-13-17 10:38 AM - Post#226724    

Well, what does it tell you that Goodman is inserted in the starting lineup for the playoff game? While his minutes have been steadily increasing, asking him to play the lead role for 30 minutes for the first time demonstrates the hope we can get better lead guard performance than we had throughout the season. And while Goodman's defense is much much better than anyone else we have at that spot, he clearly is not ready to distribute on the move. Foreman is not really a lead guard either--the next time I see him hit an open man off the dribble might be the first. So it's a clear need.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-13-17 10:55 AM - Post#226730    

i think it says the alternative was asking Jackson Donahue to guard Cannady. No thanks.

I agree with SM - we have two IMPACT freshmen. Devon could absolutely turn into an impact guy but he started almost by virtue of process of elimination. We continually had a rotating spot open there. This isn't really a shot at him, I just think he didn't demonstrate quite the ceiling (nor operate consistently at a high level) as Ryan/AJ did.
pennsive
Junior
Posts 200
03-13-17 09:54 PM - Post#226873    

Nowhere is the need manifested more than in our end of game strategy. At least three times this year Darnell took the last crucial shot (two, at least were from deep and low percentage shots). I have to think that SD must have a few last second plays in his arsenal that don't call for long hoists to save or ruin the day, but they are not evident. Presumably, to execute those, you need real point guard play. BTW, if Silpe develops a reliable shot, can he get back in the mix, or is he too slow and small to think that what once was a 3* high level recruit for us will come back and be the guard we are missing? There is no question in my mind that his passing is far superior to any other guard on our team, so I am hoping he does have an upside not yet revealed to us. As it is, however, defenses can drop back and cover the other four players and let him shoot, so that doesn't work without developing a shot and a motor like Rosen's.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21085
03-13-17 10:04 PM - Post#226876    

I've been saying all along that Goodman will be a valued 6th (or 7th) man off the bench in the future. Nothing over the past few weeks has changed my assessment. He is a part of this team's future, but not primarily as a starter.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-13-17 10:05 PM - Post#226877    

Unfortunately, his defense was worse than his shot. Silpe would have been an adequate Ivy point guard 10 years ago. However, the level of talent at that position has left him behind.
Basketball Bruce
Freshman
Posts 29
03-13-17 11:48 PM - Post#226883    

I'm sorry. You base this on what? The three games this year that he played more than four minutes? I thought he looked great against Temple. The other game he played significant minutes was Villanova. Other than those games and maybe one other, he really didn't play. I think we owe him the same "freshman mistakes" excuse so many on this board give to Goodman. Silpe was not put in a position to succeed last year, starting his first seven games as a shooting guard. After that, he lost his confidence. When he came back and especially during Ivy League play, he was much better. In fact, if you compare his in conference stats last year to Goodman's stats this year, you will see that Silpe's shooting was better and that in most other instances he is equal to or better than Goodman. Turnovers were a problem for Silpe, but I think that had something to do with a weaker supporting cast last year. As I said in an earlier post, I really think if Silpe was given a chance to play with AJ and Betley and even Foreman and/or Goodman as shooting guards, we would have seen some really great ball movement and a lot more opportunities for Betley and AJ and the others to shoot. Silpe is an unselfish player who always sees the floor. I think he could have really helped Penn this season.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 04:17 AM - Post#226893    

I base it on watching him play and more importantly, watching the coach leave him on the bench. Whatever you may think, he simply doesn't have the quickness to guard the elite guards in this league. Goodman does. No question that he has better passing skills than anyone else, but his defense and lack of a shot is why he isn't playing. I'm just reporting what is obvious to anyone watching the team. I'm sure he's a great kid. He would be playing if I were wrong about him---we really need a true point guard.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-17 09:09 AM - Post#226899    

I thought Goodman did a good job finding the open man at the end of the Harvard game. He may have only had the ball because Foreman had fouled out, but I thought he did well there (and saw the floor).
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 09:23 AM - Post#226900    

He saw the floor from 30 feet out. That's very different from seeing the floor on a drive through the lane. Give him credit for that play but most times, you're not playing for a 30 footer to win the game.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-17 09:53 AM - Post#226905    

The key there was that he saw the floor and found the open guy. I assume that, if Baker went out and guarded Donahue, Goodman would have gotten the ball to AJ or Betley. I suspect if Foreman hadn't fouled out, he would have dribbled around and then taken a 3 himself. And Goodman does do a good job of driving and dishing to Betley in the corner. The reason that hasn't happened the last couple of weekends is because everybody saw that we did it over and over again during our winning streak.


PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-14-17 10:02 AM - Post#226908    

Yeah, the difference between end of regulation against Harvard and end of regulation against Princetion 3.0 was Goodman vs Darnell. Dev had the ball and actually ran the play against Harvard (There is no way Foreman passes that ball to let Jackson win the game). Against Princeton Darnell (Why did Matt H pass it to Darnell on the inbound when Dev was there too?) had Betley wide open on the final play and chose to jack up a 3 with multiple Princeton defenders on him.

Those two plays are a microcosm of the difference between those two players.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-17 10:06 AM - Post#226910    

Well, I agree that sometimes the call as to who gets to make mistakes and who does not is a close one. However, I agree with the coach on this one. In the Princeton game, we are playing a team that runs an offense purely built to find and exploit a defensive mismatch. They have 5 guys who can beat you, and they always have 4 of them on the floor. In the first two games, we couldn't guard all 4. In this last one, with Goodman starting, we could -- at least when our staters were in. This is why, when MacDonald was in, you may have noticed that whoever he was guarding kept scoring.

The change was so effective that Princeton basically pulled their center for the whole 2nd half, so they could play all 5 offensive options and draw AJ out of the middle. That created a mismatch for us with AJ, who after 2.5 games of getting doubled and knocked around finally got open looks. We took it to Princeton and made them adjust to us, and that is why we should have beat them. And it started with playing Goodman 37 minutes.

Back to Silpe, he just doesn't look like a system fit to me. Yes, it would be great to have a pass first PG if he could do other things and protect the ball. That hasn't been Silpe so far. But you know who didn't look like a system fit a year ago? Darnell Foreman. If I were Jake, I'd follow Foreman around all offseason and do whatever he does. I'd ask what he did last year. I'd ask the coaches what Foreman did (and I need to do) to make myself a fit. Yes, they have different skill sets, but I think Silpe can add some stuff (and learn a bit about how you go about convincing the coaches) from Foreman.


palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 10:11 AM - Post#226911    

I really like Devon's game---but he only averaged 1.75 assists per game in 15 minutes per game. That is a lower average per minute than Foreman. He has a long way to go before he can be said to be a true point. We need someone who can get 7-8 assists a game or more to get to the next level. And I will note that 2 years ago, Antonio Woods had by far the most assists on the team (albeit still just under 4 a game). Only Rosen in recent years had numbers in the 8 range and above. But Woods is probably the best option for next year and if has improved since his full freshman year, he will be an enormous upgrade.
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-14-17 10:25 AM - Post#226913    

  • palestra38 Said:
I base it on watching him play and more importantly, watching the coach leave him on the bench. Whatever you may think, he simply doesn't have the quickness to guard the elite guards in this league.



Re: Silpe, I disagree with this, but also this general line of thinking about players in this (or any other) program.

My philosophy is that most D1 players would be pretty effective in the right situations. I've seen players play meaningful significant minutes (Greg Kuchinski, who walked on his 5th year at Penn, Frederich Ebede, who sat his whole career at the 3, then became a reasonably effective stretch 4 off the bench his senior year out of necessity). Other guys (Osmundson) looked like 1st league players in the offseason, but had to balance a different role (caretaker) and struggled at times.

And it follows that if there is a solid contributor inside almost every player, that coaches still have to make difficult decisions (who to invest in, whose development takes priority -- when to create lineups around certain players that make sense, and, of course, who to play).

I think there's a decent chance Silpe gets passed over here -- a brutal experience for a young man whose identity is being a hoops player -- but I played with him in summer league the year he entered Penn, and still believe there's a starting Ivy point guard in him. For whatever reason, the game hasn't slowed down, and he certainly would have benefited from having a shot creator on the wing. But he can make shots, is a good distributor, and is quick/strong enough to defend competently.

Maybe it doesn't click for him. Maybe it does, and the program has already moved on. But I'm hesitant to say that b/c guys didn't contribute early in difficult situations (i.e., they were asked to create at the end of the shot clock b/c of the lack of off-the-dribble scorers in the program) that they couldn't be meaningful contributors. Imagine I'll be saying the same thing about Sam Jones (obvious limitations, but with a grade-a skill -- he can shoot and is get get his shot off) and others.

I lived through this -- my roommate freshman year was Ryan Pettinella -- he was a freak-show of an athlete (virtually the fastest guy on the team in a straight line sprint). For Dunph's system (needing bigs who passed) I was a better fit -- but Pet ended up starting at Virginia and contributing there. On the other end, coaches told me Pat Hadden would be my starting PG for 3 years on my recruiting visit. A dozen other guys went through the same challenges with fit and expectations -- and don't get me started on coaching changes and learning that coaches' value different skills.

Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it doesn't. And there are a million reasons why (not all in a player's control).
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21085
03-14-17 10:36 AM - Post#226915    

  • SteveDanley Said:
But he can make shots, is a good distributor, and is quick/strong enough to defend competently.



Agree with you on item #2 (he has made some awesome passes). I think the jury is still out on #3. But it's item #1 where there's the greatest discrepancy between expectations and observations. He has not made shots, period. If he did, he'd see more PT (albeit as an 8th or 9th man, but at least he'd be a regular part of the rotation).

SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-14-17 10:43 AM - Post#226916    

Agree that we haven't seen a lot of shot making in games (having played with him, I don't think scoring is missing from the skillset, though I also don't think he'll be an all-Ivy creater). Not sure exactly why we're so down on his D -- but haven't taken much of a dive into the advanced stats. I'm not as down on his physical tools as others.

But also think that there's a reason everyone is frustrated with Goodman / Darnell as well. They're now getting stuck with the difficult shots (off the dribble, end of shot clock, when sets break down) that happen to teams without elite 1-on-1 scorers. That's a brutal role without an all-Ivy guy next to you to clean up (thanks Ibby!).

The role is tough. He's struggled in it. So have the other PGs we've put out there (they've also showed skill sets with bright sides and big gaps). Not sure it means Silpe's not capable of playing at this level so much as it means, for whatever reason, this mix of guys with this coach hasn't worked out so far (and the nature of college hoops is when that happens, coaches understandably keep moving on).


palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 10:50 AM - Post#226918    

All true, but you saw yourself with Ibby the huge difference a PG with Division 1 (not just Ivy) quickness makes. I always thought that Miller would have been much more successful had David Whitehurst remained in school rather than having to go with freshmen the year after you graduated. But almost all successful Penn teams have had a PG who was a superior athlete. There's no better example of that than the 2000-01 team that lost Jordan and Langel and despite still having Ugonna and Koko, Owens, Chubb and Schiffner, went 12-17 because a guard combo that I would compare with guys like we were playing before bringing Goodman up to first team (Copp, Klatsky and Plummer)couldn't match up with opponents. Copp was also very favorably heralded as a recruit. So I am not at all knocking Silpe's skills with the ball, but if he were viewed as having the speed and defensive quickness to match up with our opponents, he would be playing.
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-14-17 11:00 AM - Post#226920    

We don't have that elite guard right now. We have to have it to be in the elite of the league.

But Ibby played the 2 until Miller came (Dunph never saw him as a point, and played Copp/Osmundson at the 1).

And that's kind of the point -- Silpe / Darnell / and maybe Goodman fit more into the profile of complementary pieces. To have a complementary piece at the point, we need a stud at the wing position. Otherwise they will be forced to up usage because they have the ball in their hands.

Luckily, we finally have a stud big man (half way there -- our best teams have also had stud bigs). Get that second all-Ivy type talent in place (or Betley grows into it, or someone else surprises) and surrounding pieces (including Silpe, if he gets the chance) will likely look a lot more like a contributor.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 11:00 AM - Post#226921    

Let me add that Goodman was inserted to major minutes after the Princeton home game (where he played only 2 minutes) the next 4 games were all wins, with romps over Cornell, Brown and Yale. And in that first game against Columbia, he harassed Smith into a 5-16 shooting day. From the time Goodman started playing major minutes, Penn was a much better team....and the teams playing against us shot more poorly....the big difference with Goodman is defense. He still needs to work a lot on his playmaking skills if he is to be the PG. I see Woods in that role next year.
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-14-17 11:04 AM - Post#226924    

I like Goodman. Love that he pushes the ball -- giving us a chance at some easy baskets. Clearly a quick athlete.

Point wasn't so much to contrast the two (coaches have to make decisions, and you can see positives from Goodman).

Instead, it was to argue that these decisions rarely come down to one player being a starting guard, and one player not being good enough. Situation, coaching decisions, players development curves, lots of things go into it, and lots of players never meet their potential -- it's the nature of college hoops. Still good players.

It's why I have mixed feelings about our rotation this year -- on one hand, we gave a lot of guys a chance to prove they are head-and-shoulders above their teammates (most weren't). On the other hand, the inconsistent rotations make me wonder if we put flawed-but-potentially-us eful players in good situations to succeed. Not sure.

That's why being a coach is so hard.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 11:09 AM - Post#226928    

But you appear to keep looking at it from the offensive side only---the huge difference when Goodman was inserted was on defense. The guy is very very hard to beat off the dribble. We were getting hurt badly off the dribble earlier in the year. I think that, more than anything else, was why Goodman was playing 30 minutes a game over the push to the playoff.
Basketball Bruce
Freshman
Posts 29
03-14-17 11:22 AM - Post#226934    

I had to go back and look at the stats. Last year, in all combined games, Silpe shot .368% fg and .313% from the three. If you look at just Ivy League play, his percentages were .408 fg and .455 from the three, showing a marked improvement. Goodman's in conference percentages were .451 and .344. So, I'm not sure why, if people think Jake has no shot, why the same thing isn't being said about Devon.

Jake also led the team in steals and assists and averaged 2.6 rebounds per game, compared to Goodman's 1.6 per game.

I also don't believe that we should consider what we saw from Silpe this season with regard to shooting. For the most part, he played garbage minutes in a rotation of twelve. I'm sure he forced shots, believing that if he made them, he'd stay on the floor. He didn't have time to have the game come to him or to get in a flow. We could all see what a difference it made to cut the rotation to 7. Chemistry and flow develop. I believe it could have been almost any of the players out there as the seven and the results were bound to improve.

In addition, and what I don't think was mentioned here, is the intangibles that I have seen Silpe bring to his games. True on court leadership. Directing traffic. Looking his teammates in the eyes during huddles and willing them to win. He was a constant communicator on the court. I think the team needs that vocal, animated leader on the court.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21085
03-14-17 11:37 AM - Post#226937    

  • Basketball Bruce Said:
I had to go back and look at the stats. Last year, in all combined games, Silpe shot .368% fg and .313% from the three. If you look at just Ivy League play, his percentages were .408 fg and .455 from the three, showing a marked improvement. Goodman's in conference percentages were .451 and .344. So, I'm not sure why, if people think Jake has no shot, why the same thing isn't being said about Devon.




First of all, that is comparing apples to oranges. Silpe averaged 6 minutes more PT per game last year than Goodman did this year, so naturally the cumulative and avg metric per game will skew higher for Silpe as a result.

But more to the point--no-one is saying that either Silpe or Goodman is a good shooter. But the difference is that Goodman has other ways of scoring while Silpe (relative to Goodman) must rely on his outside shooting to be successful in scoring.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 11:50 AM - Post#226942    

More important is the defense though and the results. Once Goodman came in, we won 6 of 8 and should have beaten Princeton. We were a completely different team and he was the only difference.
Basketball Bruce
Freshman
Posts 29
03-14-17 12:31 PM - Post#226947    

He might have had something to do with it, but clearly cutting the rotation from 12 to 7 was a huge factor.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
03-14-17 12:54 PM - Post#226954    

And Betley turning into an absolute monster had something to do with it as well.
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-14-17 01:10 PM - Post#226961    

  • palestra38 Said:
But you appear to keep looking at it from the offensive side only---the huge difference when Goodman was inserted was on defense. The guy is very very hard to beat off the dribble. We were getting hurt badly off the dribble earlier in the year. I think that, more than anything else, was why Goodman was playing 30 minutes a game over the push to the playoff.



I'm not as convinced as you are that Silpe is a poor defender. And I have a really hard time evaluating defense without knowing scheme, etc, but I'll give it a bit of a shot.

Hard to have these discussions in a nuanced way in college, where sample sizes are so small and players are gone so fast, but my understanding of research on defense is that rate stats for steals and rebounding do a decent job of measuring athleticism. And Silpe's rate states (St/Rb/dRat 3.9/3.9/101.5 in limited minutes this year, 2.5/6.7/105.6 last year) compare ok to Goodman's (2.8/6.2/103.7). [all stats from sports-reference].

I agree that Goodman looks a little quicker and with better fast twitch change of direction. My eyes say Silpe is a little stronger (he certainly added some strength going into this year). Would want to know more about the scheme to understand the context of gambles / pnr coverages and beyond. But my eye-test of Silpe was never that he was the problem as a defender -- perhaps not an elite defender (and maybe Goodman is elite at keeping guards in front of him, I certainly hope so) -- but that Silpe is a competent defender at this level.

That said, I certainly agree that the cocktail Donahue mixed (shorter rotation, more Goodman, whatever they did to adjust to the double team fiasco) worked. Kudos for figuring out a path to winning more games. A quick look at the final scores over our winning streak shows that we saw about a +5 increase in scoring over that stretch and -4 in what we gave up -- a HUGE 9 point swing that includes improvements in both areas (none of that is pace adjusted).

Where I disagree is with the initial assessment of Silpe: "he simply doesn't have the quickness to guard the elite guards in this league".

Just not sure it's what my eye-test, or the stats I've seen say. More importantly, the fact that elite quickness may be super helpful to us (a team with limited athleticism) doesn't mean that in other contexts (say a team with a lot of athletes, that needs a facilitator) that Silpe wouldn't be super valuable, and very playable. Context is king, and guys only get so many chances. Silpe hasn't figured out a way to produce in the opportunities he's had -- but I see him as a mid-level defender, a good distributor, and a guy who hasn't figured out how to make his offensive game work at the college level in the context of the system we're running. Maybe he doesn't get another shot with a good class coming in, and I understand if the staff goes another direction.

But was always hard to see guys like that get lost in the shuffle when I played; guys who know they can play and just don't fit the moment/team/system or, for whatever reason, it just doesn't work when they get their chance. I think it's a better way of thinking about the guys that get passed over than thinking of them as fundamentally flawed and unplayable.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21085
03-14-17 01:33 PM - Post#226965    

  • SteveDanley Said:

But was always hard to see guys like that get lost in the shuffle when I played; guys who know they can play and just don't fit the moment/team/system or, for whatever reason, it just doesn't work when they get their chance. I think it's a better way of thinking about the guys that get passed over than thinking of them as fundamentally flawed and unplayable.



That's a fair assessment. Many of us saw him play in high school against good competition and he could certainly play. Perhaps with a different mix of players/scheme/coach the result to date might have differed in college.

T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts 1169
03-14-17 01:37 PM - Post#226966    

Nice analysis, Steve. It’s got to be really hard for any of these kids, who were all seen as REALLY GOOD PLAYERS in high school, to get knocked down a few pegs like that. Takes a resilient personality to not get discouraged and keep your head in the game and be a good teammate.

That’s one thing that did impress me with this team—particularly during their hot streak. I made a point of looking at the bench during games and to a man they all appeared utterly engaged and genuinely excited and happy for their teammates who were getting the PT at their expense. That’s got to be as big a coaching challenge as any—keeping the benchwarmers on board. I think it’s a credit to Donahue, Bowman, and Graham that the morale of these guys never appeared to waiver.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-14-17 01:53 PM - Post#226970    

Let me add that I did not want to limit my opinion about our defense from the guards to just Silpe. MacDonald and Wood also had trouble keeping players in front of them. To my "eye", the biggest difference once Goodman and Betley (yes, he deserves credit too) were given major minutes was that our opponents seemed to have to work much harder for shots.
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts 1877
03-14-17 02:12 PM - Post#226975    

I subscribe to S. Danley's beliefs on Silpe. I think that in the right system and team, he is a college player.

Our team struggled to put two complementary guards on the floor together for most of the season and even struggled to put two solid Ivy guards period.

At the end, Goodman and Betley wound up to be a complementary pair. Goodman can guard the better penetrator, can penetrate himself, and moves the ball. Betley can shoot and be disruptive on defense with his length.

Silpe has some great PG tools, but I'd imagine he would be complemented by someone who can nail the open shot but also can finish Silpe's passes slashing at the hoop. We don't really have that. I have some hopes for Hamilton, though I may be in the minority.

Silpe and Betley would be a better combo than any other combo Silpe would have played with early in the season. Is it any wonder that Silpe struggled with any combo pair with Donahue/Foreman/Wood? That is the type of PT he got.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-14-17 02:20 PM - Post#226978    

FWIW, from the perspective of an opponent, Goodman adds quickness and speed that had been missing earlier in the season. Before the season, fans proposing a halfcourt trap were met with arguments that Penn's guards were not quick enough to extend that far out.
At Harvard, the Crimson fell behind 19-4 in a halfcourt game before deciding to push the pace, outscoring Penn 65-40. It was obvious that - without Woods and with Goodman playing only 16 minutes - Penn was vulnerable in transition. Foreman fouled out with 4 TO's.

At Penn, Goodman played 29 minutes and Penn had only 10 TO's (compared to 19 TO's in the first meeting). Harvard had no fast break pts and only 12 points off TO's (compared to 8 and 23 at Harvard).

Looking at the distribution of minutes, it appears that Caleb Wood's minutes were shared by Betley and Goodman.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-14-17 02:24 PM - Post#226981    

In a limited sample of views, Silpe seemed OK defensively, more prone to being overpowered than out-quicked and kind of scrappy, and a big plus in ball-handling and passing. He could dribble under control in traffic, not just on committed drives to the basket, but turning in the lane, etc., and he had decent court vision and decision-making. Nobody else on the team had those skills, as far as I could tell.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-14-17 05:11 PM - Post#227011    

I feel for Jake and all the kids like him who get buried in the rotation. I agree he has some skills our other guards could use but I have to ask where his minutes would come from? Goodman will get his because there are so many really good quick guards we will see that he must defend; not to mention the dimension he adds to the offense. Even when he does not start, he will get his PT. We have to assume Woods will get major minutes even if he does not start. Williams likely will not be ready initially. JD will likely come of the bench and not play the point. That leaves Foreman who will be a senior. Jake would have to improve enough in the eyes of the coaches to beat him out as I see it.
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts 101
03-14-17 05:51 PM - Post#227021    

I agree -- for someone out of the rotation to make it into the rotation you have to see a big leap over the summer (more than incremental progress). That will be doubly so for some of the older guys because they have younger guys behind them.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-14-17 06:12 PM - Post#227022    

For the record, while the raw shooting percentages you list look comparable, Goodman had about a 101 ORAT in conference this year (so right around average), while Silpe's last year was about 90 (well below average). PER and win shares show the same thing -- that Goodman seemed to progress to an average level by the conference season, while Silpe never did (despite playing more) his first year. The main issue is turnovers, and it is enough of an issue that it basically ruins everything else statistically.

To echo Mr. Danley's very good points for a moment, I do think that removing Howard from the mix changes things. Obviously the easiest thing to do is find a guy who does everything Matt did. Assuming that doesn't just happen, it could be that the best mix turns out to just be different without him. So that creates opportunity for Silpe, and Sam, and Tyler, etc.
Basketball Bruce
Freshman
Posts 29
03-14-17 07:05 PM - Post#227028    

I agree that Silpe committed more turnovers in his freshman year than Goodman did. For one thing, Jake played 628 minutes to Goodman's 369 minutes, resulting in more time handling the ball. More importantly, I think, is the fact that Goodman was able to ease into his role as point guard, having the benefit of relieving Darnell for a few minutes each game and gradually increasing his time. Jake was thrown in for game one as a starter, without that benefit. I am also sure that with the sudden departure of Tony Hicks, (and later, Woods) and the fact that this was Steve's first year of coaching this team, the offensive and defensive strategies were not entirely clear. Goodman had a more talented and experienced supporting cast. Last year there was no AJ or Betley, and Matt Howard and Max demonstrated a year's growth.
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts 1117
UPIA1968
03-14-17 11:10 PM - Post#227039    

Perhaps in this debate over point guards we should focus less on the Goodman/Silpe choice and more on the talent level needed in the 1-2 guard positions. Penn was contention level at 3-4-5 with Betley, Howard and Bodeur. Whoever played at 1-2 was at a much lower level. The void there is why in the Ivies Penn was 6-9 rather than 10-5 and in the tournament final.

So the debate should be about where we get a serious UPGRADE over 2017 performance. I guess Devon gets the nod because he has elite quickness and one hopes that he will develop better shot and better court judgement. Alternately we have to hope that one of the new people next year will be an elite scorer. Should that occur than Steve D's supposition that a complementary talent (translate to lesser talent) will work at the 1 position. Woods could be that person; a more mature Devon could be; a better shooting Silpe could be.

One other point. One must concede that Donahue is a competent college coach. Maybe not a John Wooden, but certainly competent. Given the obvious talent void in the backcourt on this team it is inconceivable that he would not give time to a player that showed significant talent on the practice court. Jake did not get time this year in part due to his indifferent play in the Palestra, but mainly Donahue's choice was due to Jake's indifferent play in Hutch.

One of every 2,000 high school guards plays in college. The business of determining which of the many pretenders will become a major contributor against competition that is 2000 times harder will always be a great mystery.
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts 1877
03-14-17 11:44 PM - Post#227043    

One other thing is that Simmons, Williams, and Scott seem like they might be good complements to Silpe. From their video, they each seem like they would provide the slashing style that would allow him to be a real facilitator. The problem is that none of the 4 appears to be a pure three point threat. Unless Silpe becomes that, I don't see him becoming the perfectly complementary piece to a championship squad.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-15-17 06:46 AM - Post#227046    

Again, both of the last 2 posters don't mention defense. Prior to the insertion of Goodman, we had offensive droughts similar to that in the second half against Princeton and they inevitably cost us the game. Now (and the same thing happened against Columbia as well), Princeton also struggled for points and never pulled ahead. We are significantly tougher on defense with Goodman---and I think that, more than anything else, was the reason he was in there.

And seriously, UPIA, you mean that it's Goodman's fault that Howard missed the FT at the end, since you appear to say that if he had more game, we would have been in the final ("The void there is why in the Ivies Penn was 6-9 rather than 10-5 and in the tournament final.") ??
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-15-17 09:56 AM - Post#227064    

it's not goodman's fault that Howard missed the shot. But it is his fault he went 2-13.

And it's not Matt's fault that Devon went 2-13 but it is his fault he missed the free throw.

This isn't to place blame, just to recognize failure had many fathers.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-15-17 10:04 AM - Post#227067    

Should Jarod Simmons turn out to be an impact player next season (a pretty good possibility), it seems to me that this will fundamentally change the job the team's guards have to do. Right now Penn has only two PF/C players. One is very good, the other is serviceable. If we get to a point next year where we have two very good PF/C players on the court together most of the time, that's likely to change the design of both the offensive and defensive schemes. Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-15-17 10:08 AM - Post#227069    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
it's not goodman's fault that Howard missed the shot. But it is his fault he went 2-13.

And it's not Matt's fault that Devon went 2-13 but it is his fault he missed the free throw.

This isn't to place blame, just to recognize failure had many fathers.



I'll say this about Devon Goodman-- he's clearly a chucker. Steve Donahue really seems to like chuckers. If Devon learns to chuck with more accuracy, he's going to play a lot.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-15-17 10:28 AM - Post#227076    

Except that I was commenting on Devon's defense---I acknowledge that he has a long way to go on offense.

But when we weren't scoring, neither was Princeton and THAT is a big change.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-15-17 01:12 PM - Post#227108    

  • Silver Maple Said:
Should Jarod Simmons turn out to be an impact player next season (a pretty good possibility), it seems to me that this will fundamentally change the job the team's guards have to do. Right now Penn has only two PF/C players. One is very good, the other is serviceable. If we get to a point next year where we have two very good PF/C players on the court together most of the time, that's likely to change the design of both the offensive and defensive schemes. Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team.



We have two very good post players this year and we rarely saw them. Max is more than serviceable, but not as long as AJ, but that's what he was asked to do for this team. Donahue isn't playing 2 bigs for long stretches anytime soon.

SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-15-17 01:25 PM - Post#227113    

"Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team."

Liam Neeson will play him in the movie made about next season.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-15-17 02:24 PM - Post#227124    

Don't you have an NCAA game to prepare to watch this week (but funny comment)?
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-15-17 03:01 PM - Post#227137    

  • SRP Said:
"Exactly what the coaches will change remains to be seen, but there's a chance that the skill requirements for our guards will change, and that a player with Jake Silpe's very particular set of skills (skills he has acquired over a very long career) will become more valuable to the team."

Liam Neeson will play him in the movie made about next season.



Or maybe Kermit the Frog. I'm glad somebody got that reference.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-16-17 06:08 AM - Post#227195    

Not sure Goodman's really that much of a chucker. His field goal attempt rate is actually lower than most of the guys in the rotation. Even against Princeton, you had pretty even distribution. The five guys who played 37 or more minutes all took between 10 and 13 shots. That's close enough where, in one game, I'd say it was fairly random that he took the most shots.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-16-17 06:14 AM - Post#227196    

Disagree on this. If Donahue has another AJ level big, he'll play him. He did it at Cornell when the personnel dictated it. Moreover, Donahue has bucked some historical tendencies with the defense as Penn coach. So I don't think we can be certain of what he'll do simply because of what he did in the past.

On Simmons, though, it is of course possible that he isn't ready to contribute immediately in the way AJ was. So we may end up playing the way we did this year. If he's ready to contribute a little, that still may free us up to play Rothschild with AJ together more, as there may be less nervousness about foul trouble leaving us with zero bigs. Offseason for Max should be defense, defense, defense.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-16-17 08:34 AM - Post#227197    

I'm not sure how much we can tell about leadership from watching the games. In regard to animated/vocal leadership, Foreman, Donahue, and Rothschild seem to do that. Foreman and Donahue appear to direct traffic (and the coach specifically references Donahue providing that). The team voted for Howard and MacDonald as captains. Other guys may be able to do it, too, but I'm not sure there is a void there that Silpe needs to fill. And in terms of willing guys to win, well, we won more this year (and certainly were a more fun, seemingly competitive team to watch).

It may be worth noting that not everyone can (or needs to) be a leader. We don't know what the kids are like behind the scenes (at least I don't), but it is possible that Goodman keeps his head down and does his job, and that may actually be part of why he has moved ahead, too.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-16-17 09:40 AM - Post#227199    

  • SomeGuy Said:
Disagree on this. If Donahue has another AJ level big, he'll play him. He did it at Cornell when the personnel dictated it. Moreover, Donahue has bucked some historical tendencies with the defense as Penn coach. So I don't think we can be certain of what he'll do simply because of what he did in the past.

On Simmons, though, it is of course possible that he isn't ready to contribute immediately in the way AJ was. So we may end up playing the way we did this year. If he's ready to contribute a little, that still may free us up to play Rothschild with AJ together more, as there may be less nervousness about foul trouble leaving us with zero bigs. Offseason for Max should be defense, defense, defense.



Max is not far off AJ. He played 20 minutes maybe 1 time this year. Last year in the 3 games he played more than 20 minutes he scored 18,18,14. Many games this year he had great first half (6 pts, 5 reb) and played 1-2 minutes in the second half. Donahue does not want to play 2 bigs. That's a fact. In the sweet 16 run, they had 2 bigs who played a lot during the season and he played with 1 big the last part of the year and in the tourney.

He doesn't want to play 2 bigs. He tried it a bit this year but never for any kind of stretch, even when it was working. It was not because of a lack of talent or belief in Max.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-16-17 09:42 AM - Post#227201    

I would really like to see what happens with Tyler Hamilton this offseason. he has the biggest opportunity with Matt's departure. His development on the offensive end (he seems a capable defender) could be huge.

While I am hopeful we can catch lightning in a bottle for the second time in a row with Jarrod Simmons doing his AJ impersonation, I am not confident that will be the case and betting on it is a precarious position.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-16-17 09:53 AM - Post#227203    

Come on, get real. Rothschild is a serviceable Ivy big in the class of some of those Yale bangers over the years. Nice player to have. Has a few nice strength moves inside. I'm glad we have him. BUT AJ is a potential star. He's a guy who could AVERAGE 20 ppg his junior and senior years. He was our high scorer as a freshman at 13.8, shooting over 52% (and even 41% from 3, which will be a serious weapon of his over time). He averaged almost 3 blocks a game and is a far better defensive center than Rothschild.

They are not in the same class as players. AJ is the primary reason we improved this year, with Betley second.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-16-17 10:08 AM - Post#227204    

  • PennFan10 Said:

Max is not far off AJ.



Come on. Really? Max is an adequate Ivy forward, and also clearly plays an important leadership role on the team. He's obviously a great kid, and I feel fortunate he's on our team. But to say he's near the caliber of player Brodeur is from the standpoint of skills, athleticism or basketball IQ is just ridiculous.


  • PennFan10 Said:

Donahue does not want to play 2 bigs. That's a fact.



I think you're struggling a bit with the meaning of the word 'fact.' It would probably be accurate to say that Steve Donahue has generally only played one 4-5 player during his coaching career. But that tells us nothing about his desires or intentions. The 'fact' is, Donahue has never had two bigs of the caliber of Brodeur and Simmons (assuming the recruiting ratings are accurate) at the same time while coaching in the Ivies (I have no idea what he had while at BC-- I wasn't paying attention). So we really have no idea what the coach is going to do should Simmons prove to be as good a player as we're all hoping he'll be.

One other thing: I doubt Simmons would have chosen Penn if it was a 'fact' that Donahue only wants to play one big.

Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-16-17 10:47 AM - Post#227211    

  • Silver Maple Said:


One other thing: I doubt Simmons would have chosen Penn if it was a 'fact' that Donahue only wants to play one big.





This is a good point. Read this from Simmons and we learn two things:

1. He chose Penn partly because he thinks he can play right away.
2. He was recruited as a 4.

So the only way PF10 can be right about Donahue's intentions are if:
1. Simmons is lying

or
2. Donahue said "I'll give you a fair and square chance to go up against Brodeur even though he's the best frosh we've had in years and if you beat him out in practice, you'll get to play a lot"
AND
3. Donahue said "AJ is a 4"

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sports/varsity-blog/...
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-16-17 10:39 PM - Post#227422    

You guys missed my point. Max is not AJ I realize. But he is also much more than a "serviceable Ivy Big", though if you watched how they used him most of the year I understand how you would think that. He played between 8-18 minutes depending largely on foul trouble for AJ and Matt H. From what I saw of Max last year and in halves this year he is a guy with ability to play in the league. He is different than AJ but if you compare the two he scores with both hands (AJ has no left hand), he is a good ball handler, He scores off the bounce much more than AJ. So he can score and get you a double double if given the minutes. That's not speculation, he has actually done it against good players.

This year he had a couple games where AJ got in foul trouble and he would come in, play 10 first half minutes and get 6 pts and 5 rebounds and then wouldn't play in the second half. That's not because he isn't skilled or is just "serviceable". Its because Donahue doesn't play two bigs and I don't believe that is going to change.

You can argue that SD doesn't play two bigs because of talent but that's where I would strongly disagree based on what we have seen. He has a guy in Max that has merited being on the floor more than he is and he hasn't done it. He also went away from it at the end of his Cornell run and made the sweet 16 with only 1 big on the floor. So I have my doubts about Simmons or any other big we get over the next 3 years.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-17-17 08:13 AM - Post#227436    

I think defense is where the big difference is. AJ's a big reason why we moved up about 100 spots defensively this year. I think AJ is ahead offensively, too, as others have noted, but the difference isn't as great. I think if you look at our +/- with AJ on the floor even in the games he isn't scoring, you'll see the difference he makes.

As for the 2nd big, the simple fact that Donahue recruited Simmons should tell you that he intends to play him (if ready). Do you really think he's bringing him in to sit for 2 years, play a couple of minutes a game as a junior backing up AJ when Max graduates, and then start as a senior after AJ is done? That doesn't seem likely to me. I think you're focusing on everything except what Donahue is actually doing, which ought to be your biggest clue.


SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-17-17 08:17 AM - Post#227437    

While I think you are right, Jeff, there is another possibility. Maybe Donahue told Simmons he would compete to start as a 4, but what Donahue was thinking was "little does he know that i'm planning to play Ryan Betley as a small 4 in a 4 guard lineup for the next 3 years." Obviously I don't think that's the case, but it seems to me that it's as likely as Simmons lying. Which is to say it isn't very likely.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-17-17 09:48 AM - Post#227447    

Currently, Donahue only has two bigs of true quality. That being the case, he doesn't play them simultaneously all that often, because he can't risk them both getting into foul trouble. But he does play them together sometimes, which tells us unequivocally that his offensive and defensive schemes are designed to accommodate two 4/5 players. Beginning next year, the team will have three good bigs (hopefully). If that turns out to be the case, I predict we'll see two of them playing together a lot. And we'll likely even see two of them starting.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-17-17 09:58 AM - Post#227448    

Again, this is all speculation but, SomeGuy, to your point I AM focused on what Donahue is actually doing. He ISN'T and HASNT played two bigs despite the presence of a two bigs that have performed at a double double level. So whether he says he will play 2 bigs to Simmons, Max or anyone else, is decidedly different that what he is "actually doing".

Now we can debate as to whether thats because of personnel or style/philosophy but there is plenty of evidence that spans his coaching career that it is the latter not the former.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-17-17 10:10 AM - Post#227449    

By the way, I am pretty sure SD didn't tell Caleb Wood he was going to come in and sit the bench either. Nor did he likely tell Matt M he would name him captain and he would ride the pine. So as far as analyzing what SD is doing as it pertains to selling recruits on the program, I am sure he is telling Simmons he will play right away. The list of coaches who tell recruits what they want to hear is 300 schools long.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-17-17 10:22 AM - Post#227452    

  • PennFan10 Said:
The list of coaches who tell recruits what they want to hear is 300 schools long.



That's true, but some are generally honest, while others have sometimes demonstrated a more casual relationship with the truth (see Carmody, Bill).

Another point: Brodeur and (according to what I have read) Simmons are not big players in the mold of Jeff Foote and Darien N-H. While they both know what to do when they're in the paint with their back to the basket, they both also have the skills to play further from the basket and do a lot of the things that a SF generally does (shoot the 3, guard their man on the perimeter, etc.) Given the approach that Donahue is taking, he might be able to have the two of them on the floor at the same time without changing up the style.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-17-17 10:45 AM - Post#227454    

Remember that the player has to deliver on his part of the bargain too.

Based on stories I've heard about how Donahue handled his Cornell players, I think he's an honest broker.

SM's point is valid - it was difficult to give Max extended minutes when you run the risk of getting both him and AJ in foul trouble. Another consideration is whether AJ and Max are most comfortable in the same areas of the court. I think they are, so you risk bogging things down when they play together. It's possible Simmons will be more compatible when paired with one of AJ/Max.

Penn7277
PhD Student
Posts 1365
03-17-17 11:17 AM - Post#227457    

What role, if any, will the really big guy SD recruited play?

Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-17-17 11:18 AM - Post#227458    

If Simmons is as advertised and Jackson can play, we will see a LOT of 2-bigs when the matchups warrant it. Big IFs I know, but there will be plenty of fouls to give with all 4 of those guys who all complement each other
91Quake
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-17-17 11:20 AM - Post#227459    

Dunphy while at Penn I know from several accounts only told recruits they would be given the opportunity to compete for playing time. He never promised them playing time. This clearly hurt us at times as many coaches do make promises to recruits. This seems to be the approach Donahue follows based on what the recruits have been saying generally.

And you can't play two bigs for very long when you only have two you consider reliable. If that number becomes three or more you will see a different approach. That will help us a lot. Our offensive rebounding when AJ,playing as the only big, stepped away from the basket was pretty non-existant. In an era where the bigs step out on the perimeter a lot more, you need to play with two.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-17-17 11:33 AM - Post#227460    

My expectation is that Mark Jackson will spend the next four years pulling splinters out of his tuches. However, being wrong about this would be AWESOME. Imagine what a 7-2 guy who's even just competent would do for the team. Even if all he can do is pass out of the high post and rebound on offense and guard the paint and rebound on defense, that changes everything. So, despite being unable to shake the attitude that 7-2 guys who can play simply don't go to Ivies, I remain hopeful.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-17-17 11:33 AM - Post#227461    

  • Silver Maple Said:
  • PennFan10 Said:
The list of coaches who tell recruits what they want to hear is 300 schools long.



That's true, but some are generally honest, while others have sometimes demonstrated a more casual relationship with the truth (see Carmody, Bill).




I am pretty sure SD was being honest with Caleb Wood, Matt M. Things don't always work out as you envision. He probably was pretty hopeful last year, based on his experience, when he named Silpe the starting point guard. Stuff happens. So it's in coaches best interest to recruit great players and then tell them how big their role can be. If what a coach tells a recruit and what actually happens were always true, there wouldn't be many bench players in D1.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-17-17 11:33 AM - Post#227462    

I don't see any evidence that Steve made promises he didn't keep? Do you? The transfers both played significant minutes until it was clear that it was not working. And they both were big cheerleaders on the bench--it's not as though anyone was quitting the team. It seems everyone gets a chance and performance is what puts some of them on the court for more minutes.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3579
03-17-17 11:45 AM - Post#227463    

  • Streamers Said:
If Simmons is as advertised and Jackson can play, we will see a LOT of 2-bigs when the matchups warrant it. Big IFs I know, but there will be plenty of fouls to give with all 4 of those guys who all complement each other



The point of having little depth to play two bigs is valid and may change SD's thinking when Simmons is in the fold. But we had two bigs this year and didn't play them together much. I believe, with no information, its because of philosophy not depth. We will see. I hope Max and AJ make huge strides in the games and Simmons is the second coming of AJ. That would be a fun problem to have and may force SD's hand.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-17-17 12:17 PM - Post#227466    

The issue is fouls. Donahue basically took AJ out whenever he committed a foul (I assume because they thought he had a tendency to foul twice in a row -- something I know they were statistically aware of with Ugonna in the past). If you are playing both bigs simulataneously, and you remove AJ whenever he fouls, and you remove any big who gets 2 for the rest of the 1st half, and you need to rest guys sometimes, and Max tends to foul, it gets very easy to end up with both guys on the bench. We clearly didn't want to do that this year for even short stretches, let alone long ones. I think that was the main reason you didn't see both bigs playing together.
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts 1877
03-17-17 12:51 PM - Post#227469    

While Brodeur is more of a 5 for us, I think he would be a championship level Ivy 4. So I hope that there is a 5 who could let him move over.

Simmons has the potential to play the 5 if he gets a little more physical, but also could play the 3 if he improves his shooting. We need him more as a 4/5, though.

It feels to me like Scott will be ready in the wings to become a great 3/4.
QHoops
Senior
Posts 368
03-17-17 01:00 PM - Post#227471    

And remember Matt H played above his size, which sure helped with rebounding this year. His 30 minutes are up for grabs, and it's pretty easy to see a split in those 30 minutes between going big - Max or Simmons, and going small - Betley, Jones, or Hamilton.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-17-17 01:02 PM - Post#227472    

Take Betley out of that equation. He will get at least 25 minutes a game next year no matter where he is playing.
QHoops
Senior
Posts 368
03-17-17 02:02 PM - Post#227476    

Of course. I'd be surprised if he wasn't a 30+ guy next year. My point was that some (hopefully few) of those minutes will be with only 1 'big' on the floor.

That doesn't make him a 4, but he probably would be the second best rebounder out there in that particular situation.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32685
03-17-17 02:14 PM - Post#227478    

I see in the long run that Betley is a clear 3---similar in role to Bernardini. Put some big men out there and he'll get 6-8 rebounds. It gets a lot tougher when he's trying to get the rebounds against a guy who is 2-3 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.

But I think we have our "3" for 3 more years. That makes the replacement of Howard a bit easier because he really was an undersized 4. I don't like the combination of AJ and Rothschild though, even if AJ plays some at the top of the key to take advantage of his improved 3 point shot (as I am sure it will improve, and it was pretty good this year). But we have no one better at getting to the basket from a position inside the post--all he has to do is improve on hitting a higher percentage of those bunnies (as I am sure that will improve too).

Between AJ and Betley, we have 2 guys who should be at 15 ppg or better. That's a great start. And if we get from Woods what I think we will get, all we need is some starter quality play from one of the freshmen as a "4" and we can compete next year for a title.
besnoah
Masters Student
Posts 803
03-17-17 02:23 PM - Post#227480    

One tendency we saw Donahue break this year--as the team tried to climb back from its 0-6 start--was the tendency to go 10-deep. If Simmons is as advertised, (mrjames puts him in the deep 2nd tier of Ivy recruiting), I suspect the tendency to only play one big will also be broken, whether it's philosophy or not.
91Quake
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-17-17 02:24 PM - Post#227481    

I was thinking Betley is a 2. I think of Eddie Scott as a potential 3. I like having more size out there as opposed to some of the undersized squads we have been running out there.

Who is the 2 in your scenario?
QHoops
Senior
Posts 368
03-17-17 02:29 PM - Post#227483    

I love Betley's game, but 6-8 boards a game??

I bet we have not had anyone but maybe DNH average 8 a game this century. I'm sure Ugonna, Zoller, etc never did.
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts 1877
03-17-17 03:28 PM - Post#227493    

I think the conditions for AJ and Max (or Simmons) on the floor together are:

1) They move and cut in ways that give each other space on offense when needed.

2) They pass (or dribble) the ball sufficiently well that having two bigs doesn't slow down the overall ball movement.

3) They shoot well enough that the holes created (often mid-range) by mismatches of 2 big men can be exploited.

4) They defend sufficiently when opponents go small.

When I look at these, I think Simmons gives a better hope of us starting 2 big men. Particularly with #4.

I was impressed with Max this year. It appeared that AJ has had a positive impact in that Max was far more active in positioning and movement this year. They can play together if the team's strategies help with #1, but I'm not sure I see them pairing really well in terms of #2-4.

Also, don't forget about Eddie Scott. He is a hybrid solution. He seems pretty well suited to be our 3/4. He's quick, strong and has length. Even though Simmons has big upside, Scott may be a turnkey roster fit. He might fit #1, 2, and 4. He'll be a perfect fit if he addresses #3 as a shooter. I also have some hope for Hamilton in this role.






Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-17-17 03:41 PM - Post#227494    

  • QHoops Said:
I love Betley's game, but 6-8 boards a game??

I bet we have not had anyone but maybe DNH average 8 a game this century. I'm sure Ugonna, Zoller, etc never did.



Not for nothing, but Betley averaged 4.8 RPG this season in 28 MPG. 6-8 might be a stretch, but 6-7 isn't implausible. The kid seems to have a nose for the ball and a high bball IQ, and is surprisingly athletic. In retrospect, he may have been underrated as a recruit.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-17-17 03:54 PM - Post#227496    

In keeping with my Betley-Begley theme, I see Betley as more of a 2-3 with Woods/Foreman at the point and Goodman/JD at the 2. Some combination of Simmons/Hamilton/Jones at the 3-4 with Max and AJ at the 5. That assumes no Jackson. If he can break into the rotation, that changes the projections quite a bit. Silpe would have to beat Foreman out to get minutes if he stays. I wouldn't completely count out MacDonald. He becomes insurance against injuries given his versatility.

I know we all want SD to go 8-deep, but I bet we do not see that until the Ivy schedule kicks in, and then it might be 9.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
03-17-17 04:00 PM - Post#227500    

The way the game's being played nowadays, the line between 2 and 3 and the line between 3 and 4 have both been blurred almost out of existance. And even the line between 2 and 4 is looking pretty fuzzy. So I don't think we should be getting too hung up on these positional distinctions.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
03-17-17 04:51 PM - Post#227506    

Agreed, but slotting into positions is a good way of assessing who's getting the minutes next year.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-17-17 08:45 PM - Post#227513    

I wouldn't count McDonald out either. The last couple of games, when Howard was off the floor (which isn't much), it was often Betley, MacDonald, a big, and two small guards. MacDonald seemed to have moved back ahead of Hamilton and Jones. I think all 3 will be in the mix, as will Max and the freshmen. My least favorite option, but still possible, is that Donahue plays stretches with 3 out of Froeman, Woods, Donahue, and Goodman on the floor. Lots of ways to go. I'm certain Brodeur and Betley will start and play big minutes. After that, there are lots of possibilities.

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-17-17 08:50 PM - Post#227514    

You know, I don't really see the Begley comparison. Names, heights, and 3 pt shooting are similar. But Betley is more athletic, a better rebounder, longer, and better off the bounce (at least compared to freshman Begley). Begley passed better. I don't think Begely could get into the lane and elevate for that little floater the way Betley can.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
03-17-17 08:55 PM - Post#227516    

As for the position distinctions, at least this year Jones appeared to play the 2 spot (Doanue's) most of the time. Betley was playing something closer to Howard's position. He does more 4ish things than Jones, if one of them will play there. Betley also guarded more bigs, it appeared, while Jones was usually on a guard. As others have mentioned, it doesn't matter that much these days. 2-4 May look pretty similar for Penn



Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.441 seconds.   Total Queries: 15   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 05:13 PM
Top