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Username Post: 2018 Ivy Tournament Back At The Palestra
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
05-11-17 02:04 PM - Post#229227    

http://www.pennathletics.com/news/2018-ivy-league- ...

The Tournament will be March 10 and 11, 2018 at The Palestra, according to the release.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-11-17 03:01 PM - Post#229230    

Which means that we now will have not 2, but 10 months of moaning.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-11-17 03:03 PM - Post#229231    

Screw the Palestra.

Jadwin should now get equal billing, although neither place should be in play.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-11-17 03:15 PM - Post#229233    

You win for first moan.

We can agree that the tournament defeats the purpose of the Ivy Agreement.

If there is to be a tournament, there is no other Ivy venue to play it and they aren't going to rent Barclay's
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
05-11-17 03:39 PM - Post#229236    

  • Tiger69 Said:
Screw the Palestra.

Jadwin should now get equal billing, although neither place should be in play.



C'mon T-69, talk about sour grapes. If Jadwin were a fit place for the tournament, I'd understand. Now I do love your football stadium. I'm all for holding league events there.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
05-11-17 04:07 PM - Post#229238    

While there were reasons for the league to choose a more neutral location, there are understandable reasons why they have continued to have it at the Palestra.

I was hoping that the league would have found a way to eliminate the four back-to-back games. The people working the games appeared to hit a wall during the Harvard-Yale men's game and were going on fumes by the Harvard-Princeton women's game.

When surveyed, I had suggested a Friday night double-header with the #1 vs #4 women in the first game, followed by the #1 vs #4 men. Then, the two #2 vs #3 games could be played on Saturday with the two finals set for Sunday. This way, the #1 seeds could have gotten an extra day of rest and the staffs would have been more energized for the individual days.

Since the games will again be broadcast by ESPN, it is possible that there was little chance to change the schedule (and, possibly, the venue).

Jonathan Tannenwald has an interview with Robin Harris up at Philly.com, http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
05-11-17 04:52 PM - Post#229239    

Awesome news. Great decision. Gives the IL the best chance to succeed.

I applaud the AD's and coaches for making the choice.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-12-17 09:21 AM - Post#229246    

This is an utter disaster. This decision clearly demonstrates that they weren't looking at any competitive realities of the situation.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-12-17 09:39 AM - Post#229251    

It's your fault. You supported a tournament and the only good argument for a tournament was to strengthen the Ivy "brand." The only arena to strengthen the Ivy "brand", without question, is the Palestra. So you got what you wanted---if competition was your focus, then the winner of the 14 game tournament EARNED THE NCAA BID, not the winner of a "do-over" tournament.

Love it when someone is hoisted on the ole' petard. What is a petard, anyway?
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-12-17 09:47 AM - Post#229253    

Excellent news! Can't wait!!
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-12-17 09:59 AM - Post#229254    

You're misrepresenting what I said.

I've been very clear through the years that the math for the tourney works if 1) we have a legit shot at a second bid and 2) if we DON'T do something stupid like a non-1-seed hosting. I've written it and even have a podcast explaining it.

Per #1 - we actually do have the teams, but the NCAA Selection Committee is completely incapable of appropriately comparing resumes.

Per #2 - we've done precisely the thing that really effs up the odds here.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-12-17 10:04 AM - Post#229255    

The "math" may work, but as you correctly note, we are NEVER getting a second pick, albeit that may be a wrong decision objectively.

Meanwhile, the League looks at the only motivating factor for a tournament is branding/money. So there isn't going to be a tournament if it is not at the Palestra.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-12-17 10:05 AM - Post#229256    

  • mrjames Said:
.

Per #1 - we actually do have the teams, but the NCAA Selection Committee is completely incapable of appropriately comparing resumes.

Per #2 - we've done precisely the thing that really effs up the odds here.



Didn't we all agree that Princeton received a better seed in the NCAA than they would have if the Ivy tournament didn't exist?
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-12-17 10:06 AM - Post#229257    

  • palestra38 Said:
The "math" may work, but as you correctly note, we are NEVER getting a second pick, albeit that may be a wrong decision objectively.




If its happened for the women, it can happen for the men.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-12-17 11:05 AM - Post#229258    

I believe that Princeton got the last 12 seed, and that had less to do with the Ivy Tourney and more to do with Monmouth losing the MAAC tourney. If Monmouth won the MAAC, Princeton would have been a 13.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-12-17 11:14 AM - Post#229260    

It depends on whether David Worlock and the NCAA is serious about bringing new metrics into the process. After a few years of seemingly increasing understanding of judging mid-major resumes (2013 being the high water mark with MTSU, Boise St., La Salle and St. Mary's being the First Four, while UK, UVA, Alabama and S. Miss were the top NIT seeds), the recent years have been an absolute bloodbath.

In the context of the latter, it would be nearly impossible for us to get a second bid. If they change the metrics that they look at, however, it would be far more difficult to keep a potential second Ivy team out. Now... do you actually believe that they are going to introduce metrics that are implicitly more favorable to mid majors... do you...? I obviously remain hopeful, but I wouldn't put a high probability on it.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
05-12-17 11:17 AM - Post#229261    

I do not see how the venue materially improves the calculus as to the success or failure of the Tournament in economic terms. The back-back scheduling is a bigger issue. We all know there is no other arena in the league that is suitable and the Palestra is most supportive of the branding. I agree one of the neutral sites might make things a bit more 'fair', but anything more than 100 miles from NYC would likely cause attendance to fall below what we had this year.

I wish we had not gone down this road, but now that we have, we need to be realistic about the venue options.

Personally, I think having the first round games at the home of the top 2 seeds makes the most sense, with both men's and women's finals at the Palestra as a doubleheader a couple of days later.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-12-17 11:29 AM - Post#229263    

  • Streamers Said:

with both men's and women's finals at the Palestra as a doubleheader a couple of days later.



If Penn is the #2 seed for either game, the same bellyachers will still be howling.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-12-17 11:41 AM - Post#229264    

The lack of learning from what happened last year is concerning to me.

If Penn doesn't finish Top 4, I think we see "finals" numbers, or less, for both days this season. So, what they're really doing here is saying, if Penn can finish top 4, we can get big crowds at The Palestra - ramifications on our tourney win odds be damned.

That's a pretty ridiculous abdication of the responsibility that comes along with administering a league event.

It was worth experimenting with this format, but now that we see what the league's priorities are and have more information on the current college basketball landscape vis a vis the NCAA Tournament, I'm no longer on board. As I presumed from the start, the much, much, much better thing for the league would have been to keep the game AND go every year MTE rather than mishandle a tourney and put it in a format that is more likely to have real costs.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
05-12-17 01:38 PM - Post#229277    

I think you have nailed it in the sense that the motives and priorities for the tournament were not altogether clear. I still think the different constituencies within the league (players, coaches, administrations, fans, etc.) have divergent views on this. I also agree that the extra game and the MTE are more valuable.

I'm not even sure how important having a sizeable gate is. The revenue is mostly about TV. That said, if we have to do this thing, best to leave it with us in Philly unless someone can come up with a demonstrably better option.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
05-12-17 02:03 PM - Post#229279    

The pleasures of I Told You So are considerably reduced by the crappiness of the outcome. Remember:

1) The incentives of the NCAA basketball people are clear, and they are to favor major conferences and major-conference teams in assigning bids. Their plan is working; good mid-majors are fleeing their conferences to shore up the TV money for the big boys. It's like relegation without the fairness (let's see how Northern Iowa fares in the MVC without Wichita State, which learned its lesson and jumped to the AAC.)

2) The Ivy League is in an even worse position for a second bid, given the common knowledge that coaches and ADs will not be fired for failing to be invited.

3) There was ample evidence from other conferences that mid-major tourneys only draw fans and enthusiasm if games are played on the courts of the participants.

4) There was ample evidence that mid-major tourneys don't generate significant attention either inside or outside the conference fan base, especially net of the lost attention to regular-season games.

5) It was obvious that the Ivies' funky, contrarian old school way generated a lot of free publicity and branding for the league outside the fan base.

6) It was also obvious that the new format made the regular-season battle among the best teams irrelevant to most fans, diverting most attention away from the league's top teams.

7) Finally, there was never any question of the league displaying competence in siting, scheduling, or promoting a conference tournament. Instead we got a senseless idee fixe about using the more-popular men's games to promote the less-popular women's games, even at the cost of competitive fairness and quality.

The only good news is that Quaker fans will again have a chance to watch their team blow a golden opportunity to steal an undeserved bid.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-12-17 02:45 PM - Post#229280    

  • SRP Said:

5) It was obvious that the Ivies' funky, contrarian old school way generated a lot of free publicity and branding for the league outside the fan base.




The same could be said for keeping the football teams out of postseason play. Yet, the "free publicity" is mostly negative. We get derided, not applauded for our "funky, contrarian, old school way" in football.

We will agree to disagree whether the opposite was happening with respect to basketball in the pre-tournament days.


Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-13-17 05:50 AM - Post#229289    

Solution:

Have the damn tourney games played on the home courts of the favorites as they, rightly, should be.

For the benefit of TV, photoshop the background stands and fans from any rabid, sold out venue (Colbert crowd in Ed Sullivan Theatre?). The tourney is just show business anyway.

You're welcome.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-13-17 10:37 AM - Post#229292    

  • Tiger69 Said:
Solution:

Have the damn tourney games played on the home courts of the favorites as they, rightly, should be.


You're welcome.



Once again, you're ignoring the league's preference that the men's and women's tournament be held at the same venue.

As soon as the league says that it doesn't care about having the men's and women's tourneys at the same venue, then we can talk about the higher seed hosting games. Until then, the options are 1) an Ivy court or 2) some other neutral court.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-13-17 12:45 PM - Post#229293    

Hey, you deleted the most important part of the post!
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
05-13-17 07:00 PM - Post#229298    

We're objecting to the league's preference, saying it is not worth the cost, etc. It's silly to defend it by reference to itself.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
05-14-17 10:01 AM - Post#229306    

  • mrjames Said:
This is an utter disaster. This decision clearly demonstrates that they weren't looking at any competitive realities of the situation.



Like the fact that Harvard is the presumptive favorite this year? your current distaste for the tourney, while supported by the math, comes at a convenient time for Crimson fans.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-14-17 10:18 AM - Post#229307    

  • Go Green Said:

The same could be said for keeping the football teams out of postseason play.




This. No-one from Harvard or Yale really has any standing to complain about basketball as long as the status quo in football continues.

section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
05-14-17 11:36 AM - Post#229308    

AMEN
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
05-14-17 12:55 PM - Post#229310    

While we're at it, nobody can complain about poor Saturday refereeing until the Ivies let football go postseason.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-14-17 01:16 PM - Post#229313    

And we can throw in discussion of AI and financial aid packages while we're at it. Those who are truly looking for "competitive balance" must acknowledge a whole host of factors (here's looking at you, H-Y-P) that come into play.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
05-14-17 04:00 PM - Post#229320    

Amen, PN!
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
05-14-17 09:55 PM - Post#229323    

All who are happy about having the tournament back at the Palestra should send Matt Howard a thank you note.

My best guess is that if we had beaten Princeton the league would have had to do the right thing and find a neutral court for next year.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6391
05-14-17 10:30 PM - Post#229324    

Mike, I always respect your opinions, and I acknowledge you've got more lots more info than I do as to what is going on in terms of incentives and future plans, but . . . Is this really the end of the world? My Penn fandom may have played into it, but I had a great time with the tournament, and I liked the way the league worked on the branding. The league has a great venue that is part of the brand -- is playing that up really so bad, even if it has some competitive impact? Do we know that doing it the same way in 2018 is indicative of what will be done once the tournament is more established? And while I am cautiously optimistic about Penn's chances of competing next year, they did have to struggle and get a little lucky just yo sneak in as the 4 last year. It may be a little easier next year, but Penn is unlikely to make the jump to the level where the advantage becomes a huge issue for the league. i'm selfishly excited about another year where I don't have to hit the road significantly to watch the tournament.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-15-17 04:24 AM - Post#229325    

PN: Cough up a little cash to Old UP and maybe you won't need the special athletic scholarships. I heard that Old Warton has a few wealthy alums although, in good taste, I shall not mention any names.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
05-15-17 09:28 AM - Post#229326    

Your Tiger in the Senate got schooled in his area of expertise by Sally Yates.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
05-15-17 10:12 AM - Post#229327    

  • SomeGuy Said:
The league has a great venue that is part of the brand -- is playing that up really so bad, even if it has some competitive impact? Do we know that doing it the same way in 2018 is indicative of what will be done once the tournament is more established? And while I am cautiously optimistic about Penn's chances of competing next year, they did have to struggle and get a little lucky just yo sneak in as the 4 last year. It may be a little easier next year, but Penn is unlikely to make the jump to the level where the advantage becomes a huge issue for the league.



I think you're probably right about the coming season. However, look at how ambitiously Penn is recruiting. By my count they're recruiting eight 2018 players who are rated at 3.5* or higher. There's probably a pretty decent chance they'll get at least one of those guys. Donahue's a good coach. If he's able to bring in the kind of talent he's currently pursuing, he's going to have a team that's fully competitive with HYP within a couple of years. Once that's the case, I think it's going to be difficult to have the Palestra continue be the home for the conference tournament. I doubt we'll hear any squawking from players, coaches or ADs regarding tournament #2, but after that it's likely to become an issue.

mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-15-17 11:07 AM - Post#229328    

There's a lot here to dig into. It's worth noting that FA really isn't that big of a deal between HYP and P anymore, and certainly Penn has a big advantage in the AI that will be decreased a bit for the upcoming class, assuming the floor raise went through as planned. There will just be less space for Penn to fish for multiple players where HYP can really only grab one, if that.

Homecourt is a pretty massive advantage relative to having the higher seed host (7-8 points) and still a sizeable advantage relative to a neutral floor (3.5-4 pts). You could think of it as if Team A was even with Team B on Team B's home floor and would be a 7-8 point favorite over Team B on its own home floor that it would be 50/50 to win at Team B, but around 75% to beat Team B at home and about 60% on a neutral floor.

What's more is that we've seen this exact scenario play out in other one-bid tournaments - most notably the AmEast. Albany picked off the 1-seed as a four two years in a row and the 2 as a 7 another time it got to host the pre-finals. Those two 1-over-4s finally convinced the AmEast to abandon the one-site prelim round and move those to campus sites, before the higher seed hosted the final. To pretend like that almost just didn't happen to us last year was insane and at this point I wish it had.

My hope is that the folks on the competitive side will respond to being fooled by the league and not be so kind and deferential in public statements now that the league has demonstrated that competitive concerns are secondary to finding an easy solution.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-15-17 12:04 PM - Post#229330    

I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage. But if the focus of the League is branding and and some form of national attention, you can't say that this is any kind of mistake as long as Harvard and Yale get to use "The Game" as a season-ending alternative to playoff football.

If one changes, so should the other.
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
05-15-17 12:29 PM - Post#229331    

<<It's worth noting that [Financial Aid] really isn't that big of a deal between HYP and P anymore>>

Mike James,
1. What is your proof of that claim?
2. Has anyone on the Penn men's or women's coaching staff acknowledged the accuracy of that claim or is that merely the assertion of sources at Harvard (or Yale or Princeton)?

Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-15-17 12:33 PM - Post#229332    

  • mrjames Said:


My hope is that the folks on the competitive side will respond to being fooled by the league and not be so kind and deferential in public statements now that the league has demonstrated that competitive concerns are secondary to finding an easy solution.



If not the Palestra, where then?

Again, until the league says it doesn't care about holding the men's and women's tournaments in the same place, we have to pick a venue. "It should be at the higher seed's court" is not an option at present.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-15-17 04:00 PM - Post#229333    

Given the likelihood of additional serious injury, the unevenness of the competition, the differences in institutional priorities and the additional academic strain, I see little to be gained by the Ivies going to the NCAA football post season. I'm with HY on this one. While there is the occasional standout, the Ivies shouldn't be grooming football players for the pros, If we lose a standout prospect because of this policy, so what? I would say, bad choice by prospect, not university. The Ivies really made this decision when they formed back in the 50s. If the priorities of one member changes, perhaps it would be better suited for another conference like the Patriot League.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
05-15-17 04:22 PM - Post#229334    

Sports Illustrated weighs in, with quotes from several of the men's coaches, https://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 17/05/15/i...
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-15-17 05:38 PM - Post#229335    

That's just ridiculous. Sure, the Ivy Agreement provided that "The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Except that since that time, it has been waived with respect to every other sport but football. And in November, it has nothing to do with class schedules, it doesn't interfere with finals and there is no greater risk of injury than at any other time. The ONLY reason not to play in post-season football is to allow The Game to be the season-closer on national TV.

You sometimes make sense, but not at all with this one. Like many Princeton types of your generation, you think of yourselves as equal to the H-Ys. They don't feel the same way.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
05-15-17 06:26 PM - Post#229336    

The football issue has nothing at all to do with the Ivy tourney or the decision to locate it in the Palestra, no matter how much bitter Penn fans want to link the two.

As for the SI article linked above, it was a cheerleading puff piece that even recycled the falsehood that Harvard pioneered no-loan financial aid in the Ivies.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-15-17 06:49 PM - Post#229337    

  • Tiger69 Said:
Given the likelihood of additional serious injury, the unevenness of the competition, the differences in institutional priorities and the additional academic strain, I see little to be gained by the Ivies going to the NCAA football post season.



You could say the same exact thing about hockey. Heck, not every Ivy school even fields a team, and there's a great deal of "unevenness" in the level of competition and institutional priorities among the remaining schools that do.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-15-17 08:57 PM - Post#229341    

YOU should be bitter, but are so in awe of the holiness of Yale and Harvard, thinking you are part of that triumvirate, that you don't even realize you are being screwed. Princeton football is as irrelevant as the other 5 not named Harvard or Yale. This is a much bigger issue than the location of the basketball tournament. Football actually could be interesting in the way that basketball is, but H and Y say the hell with everyone else.

Go Green has asked the Princeton fans repeatedly, where else can we put the tournament if we must combine the men's and women's tournament and you cannot answer the question.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
05-15-17 09:49 PM - Post#229346    

  • westphillywarrior Said:
All who are happy about having the tournament back at the Palestra should send Matt Howard a thank you note.

My best guess is that if we had beaten Princeton the league would have had to do the right thing and find a neutral court for next year.




Matt Howard will go down in history as the guy who kept the IL Tournament game at the Palestra in year 2 as you suggest although Penn would probably have had to beat Yale as well to move the game in year 2. Also, if Penn got trounced as the 16 seed against a 1 seed that would have heightened not only the selection of the Palestra but maybe raised issues as to the wisdom of the IL Tournament although it would probably have taken two years of disaster for the IL decision makers to wise up regarding the absurdity of the tournament.

The cat is out the bag that the IL Tournament is here to stay. I have no empathy for anyone changing positions now as it is simply too late. The entire concept of the IL Tournament and Palestra is a function of money and has nothing to do what is right or wrong. This entire discussion as to the downsides of the tournament and Palestra was very predictable prior to deciding on the Tournament.

For Tiger fans, let's hope that Cannady hits the 3 point shot at the end of the game as they may be a 2 to 4 seed. Sad but somewhat amusing.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-16-17 03:16 AM - Post#229348    

I often find your posts thoughtful and interesting. So, I will I forgive your childish parting insult about Ps of my generation and their feelings about other schools including HY. That is ancient history. Quite honestly, today many of us on this site would be unable to gain admission to our alma maters. I'm quite certain that a much brighter person, perhaps female or non WASP, would get my spot.

But that simple truth neither diminishes my appreciation nor my affection for Nassau.

Nor, does it change my concern for college football players or my contempt for the commercializing of college athletes.
digamma
Masters Student
Posts 466
05-16-17 06:52 AM - Post#229349    

  • mrjames Said:


Homecourt is a pretty massive advantage relative to having the higher seed host (7-8 points) and still a sizeable advantage relative to a neutral floor (3.5-4 pts). You could think of it as if Team A was even with Team B on Team B's home floor and would be a 7-8 point favorite over Team B on its own home floor that it would be 50/50 to win at Team B, but around 75% to beat Team B at home and about 60% on a neutral floor.

What's more is that we've seen this exact scenario play out in other one-bid tournaments - most notably the AmEast. Albany picked off the 1-seed as a four two years in a row and the 2 as a 7 another time it got to host the pre-finals. Those two 1-over-4s finally convinced the AmEast to abandon the one-site prelim round and move those to campus sites, before the higher seed hosted the final. To pretend like that almost just didn't happen to us last year was insane and at this point I wish it had.





So, obviously a lot of different things go into creating a home court advantage: Fans and environment, not having to travel (sleeping in one's own bed, eating more familiar foods, staying on regular schedule), and familiarity with one's own gym, among others. I think most people would point to the first factor, the fans, as the home court advantage. That simply wasn't a big deal in March. Princeton fans were at least as loud as Penn fans at the game and weren't outnumbered by very much. I don't have the same knowledge of the American conference games, but the hypothesis here is that the edge isn't as big in tournament games because of the relatively larger, more enthusiastic crowd size of the favorite.

No way to really quantify that at this time, I realize. And I grant that Princeton may have been a bit unique due to their proximity and their team quality and the advantage more obvious if Yale or Harvard had been a higher seed versus Penn.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-16-17 09:03 AM - Post#229350    

I'm sorry if you took my post as a personal insult--it was not meant that way nor to denigrate Princeton in any way as an academic institution. I have long said that it offers the best undergraduate education in the Ivies and I mean that.

I am talking about the kind of clubbiness that allows Harvard and Yale to get away with imposing rules on the other 6 schools with an assist from Princeton even though the post-season ban doesn't help Princeton in any way. While we can disagree as to whether there is any basis for the post-season ban (other than to protect the brand of "The Game"), your rationale for not allowing the league champion to enter the FCS tournament really is a call to eliminate football altogether. Because one game or two isn't what creates the risk--it is the game of football itself. And having waived the post-season ban in the original Ivy agreement for all other sports, there is no analytical basis to do so for football.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-16-17 10:15 AM - Post#229355    

  • palestra38 Said:


Go Green has asked the Princeton fans repeatedly, where else can we put the tournament if we must combine the men's and women's tournament and you cannot answer the question.



It's not just Princeton--no one has proposed a viable alternative so long as we're picking out a single venue. Barclay's and the Mohegan Sun are pipe dreams. And do you really want to have it at a non-Ivy campus?

As I've said earlier, if people want to argue that showcasing the men's and women's at a single venue is not worth giving up HCA, then go to town. But so long as the league disagrees, the only left thing to REALLY argue about is where to have the tournament.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
05-16-17 11:02 AM - Post#229356    

The really surprising finding around home court has been that it's *not* fan driven. Home court remains pretty consistent across sparsely attended games or rabidly attended games.

Frankly, the biggest move on HCA recently is that 3pters tend to be less sensitive to HCA, so teams that shoot a ton of threes tend to see less benefit at home and less of a penalty on the road. The thought behind this continues to point toward the theory that the more you do in the 50/50 world (specifically with contact), the more decisions will slightly tilt your way regardless of whether there are fans in the stands or not.

Certainly KenPom found as much when looking at offense versus defense control, teams shoot about 0.7% better than average from three at home, but 2PT shooting goes up by 1.4%, FT Rate rises by 2.8 pp, block rate goes up by 1.2%. As KP says, offensive control over shooting decreases as you get closer to the basket, so if you're at home and your defense at the hoop is given more of the benefit of the doubt (more blocks, fewer fouls) and vice versa on the other end, that's how HCA is generated.

So, arguably, the better way to neutralize a road game is to be a team heavily weighted towards taking threes rather than bringing a bunch of your own fans.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-16-17 11:08 AM - Post#229357    

P38. I concede that I regard football as a special case. I have long been a fan, though not a player, of Ivy football. My views of how the game is played have changed over the years as has, I believe, the game itself. I never gave much thought to the long term effects when I was younger. As a kid growing up in the town of Princeton I got to know many undergraduates like big brothers who worked in the ticket office where my mother was employed seasonally. I was an early Princeton fanatic. I went to lots of football, basketball and hockey games as a town brat, and got to know a few athletes. One football player was nicknamed "Bumpy" by friends and roommates. The joke was that Bumpy never remembered much of anything except the physical contact from the games he played.

Years later, as a freshman in 1965, I had a dorm mate from rural Virginia whose entire life was playing football. He worked out VERY hard (I recall trying to run with him our freshman fall while I briefly was an eight oar crew member). Sadly, Bob was his name, though talented and hard-working, was a little too small for the linebacker role he coveted. After practice he was always a little fuzzy and welcomed being included in study sessions with his roommates. But, with little else to identify, he dropped out after freshman year and transferred to a small Baptist school where he felt more at home.

Finally, we had a very good defensive back during my undergrad years whose nickname was "Cheapshot" for the hard hits he made to opponents, often as they were falling out of bounds. We all cheered "Cheapshot" and much admired his work.

Now, years later, I wonder about how some of those less fortunate hard hitters have fared. They played only nine games then, the time demands, though great, were less than today and college sports were much less specialized. We had no illusions of National Championships. The Ivy League Championship and (sorry, P38,) a Big Three Championship were as good as it got. And, that was plenty. I don't think that a post season loss to East Georgia Aggie Tech would have Improved things.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-16-17 11:53 AM - Post#229363    

All I'll say is that things have changed. And back in the day, a Penn-Cornell football game (which always has concluded the schedule for those two schools) really had meaning too. But it doesn't in 2017, and (sorry, Tiger), neither does the "Big 3"--only The Game matters.

I hear your questions about the sport of football and, yes, there are health issues which are being dealt with to some extent, but you'll never take the risk of brain injury completely out of the game (happens a lot in hockey too).

But if we're not doing away with the sport, let the teams try to compete at their level to be the best as all other sports do.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
05-16-17 12:04 PM - Post#229367    

I might be willing to give up football if they brought back hockey ;-)

Seriously, the league has been at the forefront of protecting its football players and the program draws some impressive students who would play elsewhere if we dropped the sport.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-16-17 12:37 PM - Post#229371    

No matter how you explain it away, home court advantage in college basketball is worth almost 4 points over a neutral court matchup. If Penn plays at the Palestra in the tournament, it's a roughly 4 point advantage. Compared to giving the regular season champion home court advantage, Penn would be receiving a boost of about 7.5 pts against that same team. That's a HUGE difference and the price of playing in the Palestra. Please don't suggest that isn't likely, as it already happened in the inaugural tournament.


penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-16-17 12:44 PM - Post#229373    

  • mrjames Said:

So, arguably, the better way to neutralize a road game is to be a team heavily weighted towards taking threes rather than bringing a bunch of your own fans.



We should start training P38 and other Palestra regulars to shoot threes for the halftime festivities during the tourney, which presumably would negate this parry.

Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-16-17 12:51 PM - Post#229375    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
No matter how you explain it away, home court advantage in college basketball is worth almost 4 points over a neutral court matchup. If Penn plays at the Palestra in the tournament, it's a roughly 4 point advantage. Compared to giving the regular season champion home court advantage, Penn would be receiving a boost of about 7.5 pts against that same team. That's a HUGE difference and the price of playing in the Palestra. Please don't suggest that isn't likely, as it already happened in the inaugural tournament.





Mr. HARVARDDADGRAD--

That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.

But unless you come up with a viable alternative venue--and not "the higher seeded team's court"--it's overruled.



HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-16-17 12:51 PM - Post#229376    

First hand accounts from generations of Ivy shooters suggest that the lighting in Jadwin may be deceiving for visiting shooters. If true, does that apply to the Palestra, thus exacerbating the difference?
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
05-16-17 04:09 PM - Post#229392    

There was no mention in the recent announcement as to remaining at the Palestra in Year 2 due to the desire to keep the mens' and womens' teams playing at the same venue. The announcement focused on the exposure and excitement of playing at the Palestra. The announcement talks about looking at other venues for 2019.

Even Robin would have a tough time peddling the concept of staying at the Palestra so that the men and ladies play on the same court.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-16-17 04:26 PM - Post#229394    

I'm not for doing away with the sport of football. Hard work and learning team values are important to success in football and most other endeavors in life. But, in this case, I think the Ivies have struck the right balance. HY can have The Game. I still get great satisfaction from beating either one, or Penn or Dartmouth or BCC for that matter. An Ivy Crown means a lot more to me than an NCAA Division AA game against anyone, win or lose. The best rivals are those who have your same values. I realize that a few years ago Penn had reason to believe that it could compete with the top AA programs. But, I believe that the costs to the university in football slots, injuries, time and academic pressure to the players as well as many other factors confirm that the current situation is the best situation, given minor tweaks to maintain reasonable parity within the League. The Ivies have nothing to apologize for. Take that chip off your shoulder and, like Penn Nation, give a few more bucks to the Friends of Penn Football. It will make me enjoy seeing my Tigers kick Penn's butt (something we haven't done much since my college days) even more.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
05-16-17 04:49 PM - Post#229396    

So, under your position, what is the justification for any Ivy League team in any sport competing in post season play?
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
05-16-17 04:49 PM - Post#229397    

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...

- The league has made it clear that it values having the men's and women's events at the same site. It gives all the participating teams a brighter spotlight, as fans who might watch only men's or women's games can easily watch them all.

"That is definitely a major priority for the tournament," Harris said. "That is something that was a cornerstone part of the decision, that we thought it was wonderful to have our men's and women's tournaments together, and to have a true celebration of Ivy League basketball. To be able to feature the men and women in one place created synergies that were critical to maintain."
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-16-17 10:00 PM - Post#229405    

Wouldn't want any single sex events! Do I understand correctly Dean Khurana?
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
05-16-17 10:36 PM - Post#229406    

The business about pumping up the women by holding their tournament at the same time as the men is a decision like any other, with costs and benefits. It seems clear to me that the costs outweigh the benefits, not just in terms of venue but in terms of scheduling.

I would love to know how much overlap there is between fans of women's and men's basketball in the Ivies. My suspicion is that the intersection is pretty small and that interest in one's less-preferred gender's games drops to zero if one's own school is not involved.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-17-17 07:55 AM - Post#229407    

  • rbg Said:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/c ollege/...

- The league has made it clear that it values having the men's and women's events at the same site. It gives all the participating teams a brighter spotlight, as fans who might watch only men's or women's games can easily watch them all.

"That is definitely a major priority for the tournament," Harris said. "That is something that was a cornerstone part of the decision, that we thought it was wonderful to have our men's and women's tournaments together, and to have a true celebration of Ivy League basketball. To be able to feature the men and women in one place created synergies that were critical to maintain."



The league has actually said this many times. There really shouldn't have been a need to repeat it in the latest announcement.

In any event, Happy Birthday bradley from a fellow 5/17 guy!


Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
05-17-17 03:03 PM - Post#229419    

GoGreen and RBG, has anyone argued that the league "has said this many times?" Everyone agrees that's what the league has said, it's just many are taking issue with the idea that this is important.

I am fine with the tournament and enjoy it being played in the Palestra. But it's patently unfair to other teams and I recognize it.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
05-17-17 04:15 PM - Post#229430    

Same to you -- H.B.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
05-17-17 10:25 PM - Post#229440    

I completely understand that many people feel that combining the two tournaments is not a strong enough reason to prevent having two 8-team tournaments and having each at the top seeded team's arenas, or at neutral sites.

While I, also, enjoyed going to the Palestra to see the Tournament, I agree that having it at the conference's largest and most well known facility is unfair to the other 7 schools.

Since the Executive Director (possibly with the blessings of the 8 presidents and athletic directors) feels strongly about having the men and women tournaments together, the choice appears to be the Palestra or a neutral site. If those are the two choices, I would assume most people would prefer a neutral location.

I am certainly comfortable with the Tournament being held at a neutral location, but that decision may not be as easy as it seems. Since several of the choices mentioned over the last few months (Bridgeport, Mohegan Sun, Westchester) are closer to certain schools, the league will need to find true neutrality or risk complaints from other schools and its fans.

With all that stated, the recent SI article seems to show that most of the coaches are fine with having the Tournament at the Palestra even if there is an advantage to Penn. These comments seems to fall in line with similar statements by Mitch Henderson and Tommy Amaker during the recent Tournament.

It would be interesting to hear what the players think, since they were a driving force in having the Tournament.

PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
05-17-17 11:04 PM - Post#229441    

  • rbg Said:


Since the Executive Director (possibly with the blessings of the 8 presidents and athletic directors) feels strongly about having the men and women tournaments together, the choice appears to be the Palestra or a neutral site. If those are the two choices, I would assume most people would prefer a neutral location.




To be clear, this wasn't an edict from Robin Harris. This was a vote by the stakeholders with the blessing of the coaches (Tommy Amaker leading the charge). They voted for the Palestra over a neutral site. So no, most people (that have a say) don't prefer a neutral site apparently.

Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
05-18-17 09:20 AM - Post#229458    

yeah rbg, it seems you basically get it even if we differ in a couple places. I just think a better defense would be "Hey, I get the competitive concerns, but for some reason your schools are voting/empowering Robin to do this."

I think the reason is that if Penn's involved, they make more money and Penn isn't quite good enough yet for it to make the task of beating Penn that hard.

Let's say Yale and Harvard had arenas as big as Princeton. If they got the tournament, I'd be screaming bloody murder - it would be a tournament I wouldn't attend (no way can I drive 5-6 hours) and would make either team who are already too difficult to beat even more difficult. Princeton I would at least justify being able to drive there.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
05-18-17 09:43 AM - Post#229459    

  • Jeff2sf Said:

I think the reason is that if Penn's involved, they make more money and Penn isn't quite good enough yet for it to make the task of beating Penn that hard.



I'm sure this is part of it. Right now Penn, while improving, still really isn't that good. If Donahue's evil plan succeeds, and Penn becomes one of the top teams in the conference in another few years, the opposing coaches and ADs are unlikely to remain so magnanimous.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
05-18-17 11:34 AM - Post#229466    

That's if Penn improves but not to the top. If they become the best team in the Ivy, presumably everything is settled because the tournament would be at the #1 seed?.....Oh wait, there is the issue of the women's tournament, OK if both Penn's teams are #1 seeds, then the Palestra is fine?....no I suspect the neutral court gremlins will be out in force at that point too....
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-18-17 11:59 AM - Post#229467    

Best favor Penn can do for us all is to sneak in again at #4 and knock off high RPI League Champ -- presumably H. Then either of the Ps or Y would probably win Tourney/bid and NCAA might have to give H 2nd bid. And, the pressure to move Tourney games to neutral court or home courts of favorites would be undeniable.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-18-17 12:33 PM - Post#229468    

If the league wants to make travel reasonable for fans then the Palestra is one of the worst choices. Philly is the league's Southern boundary. Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown and Harvard are all very long drives. A location within the footprint of the league is far more reasonable for travel's sake. NY and CT seem to be at or near the geographic center.


penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-18-17 12:46 PM - Post#229469    

We went over this in a previous thread during the past year. People had suggested venues like Westchester County Center, Webster Bank Arena, Barclays Center, a few others that were more centrally located.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-18-17 01:00 PM - Post#229470    

If the League is willing to pay to rent any of these venues as opposed to using the Palestra at cost, then it makes sense. I do not believe you are figuring this into your analysis. I would have to think it would range between $20,000 for a minor league arena to over $50,000 (minimum) for something like Barclays. Remember last year at the Palestra there was a lot of resistance to the ticket cost for all but end seats. So unless the League is willing to underwrite a cost well in excess of $100,000 just for arena costs, I don't think the tournament is going to any non-conference site.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-18-17 01:26 PM - Post#229471    

Good Points. Could the lack of fan interest at higher prices be an argument supporting elimination of the Tournament?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-18-17 01:38 PM - Post#229472    

Not in my mind--the one and only argument against the tournament is that it won't help us get a second team into the NCAA's and it destroys the intrinsic fairness of the 14 game tournament, which to me probably was the only thing left truly reflecting the spirit of the original Ivy Agreement.

If they are to have the tournament, they should lower the prices and fill the building.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-18-17 03:16 PM - Post#229474    

Refresh me. How did we get to this stupid tournament? Oh yeah, I remember. The players and coaches and ADs allegedly wanted the extra games.

How about THREE games with each league opponent or 21 total games per team. 1 at each home court and the third on a neutral court of some other Ivy, perhaps as a doubleheader with another Ivy's home game.

Bottom line: there still seems to be no good format or reason for the still-idiotic tournament.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-18-17 03:20 PM - Post#229475    

Could always steal a couple of Patriot League teams or see if Amherst and Williams want to step up to Division 1 and expand the League for extra games.

But we're in agreement that the tournament destroys what has been great about the Ivy season for the last 62 years. Just got lucky last year that it didn't change the result. But we all know that it will if we keep playing it.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
05-18-17 06:37 PM - Post#229477    

My idea to put the tournament on a cruise ship is looking better and better. You could even have it stop in Boston to pick up the New Englanders before proceeding south or vice versa. Make it a real vacation event.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-18-17 08:50 PM - Post#229480    

Mohegan Sun is landed cruise ship.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
05-19-17 03:14 AM - Post#229481    

Shouldn't have any problem filling the stands. Any turbulence at sea will add an extra measure of mystery and excitement to free throws and outside shooting.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
05-19-17 07:52 AM - Post#229486    

  • SRP Said:
My idea to put the tournament on a cruise ship is looking better and better. You could even have it stop in Boston to pick up the New Englanders before proceeding south or vice versa. Make it a real vacation event.



Any aircraft carriers on the East Coast?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/20 12/1...
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-19-17 08:04 AM - Post#229488    

Play it on the Intrepid.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
05-19-17 09:43 AM - Post#229490    

I think a higher-tech solution might be available.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D._Helicarr...
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
05-19-17 11:11 AM - Post#229491    

Harvard's visit to Atlantis on Paradise Island a few years ago went very well. The players loved it!

Makes for a great spring break for all involved and it takes less time to fly there than it does for more than half the league to drive to the Palestra.


palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
05-19-17 11:36 AM - Post#229492    

$69 flights on JetBlue from Logan to PHL
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
05-19-17 11:53 AM - Post#229493    

And ultra-convenient 22 minute ride on SEPTA Commuter Rail to U City stop. 5 minute walk to the Palestra.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
12-15-17 02:03 PM - Post#240274    

Stephen Edelson at the Asbury Park Press has an opinion piece regarding the MAAC's upcoming decision on the future location of its post-season tournament. I think it touches on a number of issues that have been discussed on the board over the last few years.

http://www.app.com/story/sports/college/ monmouth-u...

Presently, the MAAC is at the Times Union Center in Albany. The TUC is the home venue for Siena, and Edelson posits that the home advantage may have helped Siena upset number 1 seed Monmouth.

The TUC seats 15,000. Although Siena has the largest attendance in the league, the arena is mostly empty for the men's and women's tournaments. The MassMutual Center in Springfield (MA) hosted it before moving to Albany and it had worse attendance.

The TUC, MassMutual Center, new Nassau County (Long Island) Coliseum, and Atlantic City Boardwalk Hall are the four venues that have put in bids for both MAAC Tournaments starting in 2020. While no place is ideal, the writer thinks the the AC location will be a destination site that will get enough fans to cover the associated costs.

Seems like a persuasive article for those that want to see the 2019 Ivy Tournament at Mohegan Sun.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-15-17 02:40 PM - Post#240277    

Well obviously there is a difference between a league (MAAC) that has to pay for an arena for a tournament and cannot fill it no matter where it is and one between a league (Ivies) that can use one of the great college basketball arenas in the nation for free and come close to if not selling it out.

So I disagree that there really is anything analogous here, other than the obvious unfairness of having to compete in the home arena of one of the teams. I think Maryland used to complain about that every year when the ACC tournament was held in Greensboro.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
12-15-17 03:04 PM - Post#240279    

Again, the 2019 Ivy Tournament will not be at The Palestra from what I understand.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-15-17 03:11 PM - Post#240280    

So will it be in Princeton (the only other Ivy arena capable of holding it) or will the Ivies pay for what likely will be a mostly empty arena?

mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
12-15-17 05:11 PM - Post#240286    

I don't believe anything is determined beyond that. While I 100% understand your viewpoint, I don't know that Princeton is viewed as the *only* other league building capable of hosting the tourney. And I do think a neutral venue is on the table.

If things ever settle down for me, I might start digging into this a little more again, but it's been real tough to carve out time for hobbies recently. Thank goodness all my code/reports are (essentially) automated!
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-15-17 05:24 PM - Post#240287    

You can find me at the buffet and the Black Jack tables. I’ll be patient
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
12-15-17 06:18 PM - Post#240289    

Should just work in with the Big East at MSG. "Mind if we have a little run here?"
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
12-16-17 09:23 AM - Post#240303    

From an attendance perspective Jadwin is the only building in the league capable of seating 5000+. When you suggest "a neutral site" is being considered do you mean a particular site or the concept of a neutral site? It was difficult, if not impossible, to get good tickets on the tournament website two days after they went on sale. Last year I got courtside on the baseline. This year the first four rows were gone immediately. I don't know how you can hope to accommodate 8 teams and the general public in a Levien or Lee, for example..
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
12-16-17 03:04 PM - Post#240323    

Given Jadwin's yawning space and the average age🙁 of our most loyal fans, I have always regarded Jadwin as a neutral site.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
12-16-17 05:42 PM - Post#240343    

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Princeton have the greatest home court advantage in the league? I recall that this stems from the fact that visiting teams' FG percentages are significantly lower than their average.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-16-17 06:20 PM - Post#240346    

Ex-players tell me the Jadwin lighting is very different and hard to adjust to when shooting
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
12-16-17 10:08 PM - Post#240366    

Since no else has mentioned this yet, I will note that the schedule for the first day has been changed this year; the men's games will now be played first, at 12:30 and 3, and then the women's games starting at 6. This reduces the advantage in rest the winner of the first women's game had last year, and also allows them to sell a separate package for the women's games only, which I think is a wise idea.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-16-17 11:34 PM - Post#240369    

I wonder if selling separate packages is a good idea. My observation is that the women's games were sparsely attended, with lingering men's game attendees constituting a significant portion of the attendance.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
12-18-17 09:47 AM - Post#240442    


If there is going to be a year where the women's tournament does comparatively well to the men, this should be it.

Many Ivy women's teams are off to great starts this season. Can't really say the same for the men...
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-18-17 10:14 AM - Post#240446    

That doesn't increase the fan base though. Essentially, if the women's tournament were held separately, it would not sell out the smaller arenas. The stated reason for playing the two together was to bring together fans of all the schools--something that really doesn't happen when you schedule the games as they did last year where the two men's games were separated so there is no chance to all hang out together. There really is no way you will get more than 2000 for the women's games, so they combined them and (in my opinion) charged too much for the side tickets so that even the men didn't sell it out. It was a fun event as a Penn fan who lives in Philly, but they could do the entire thing a lot better, especially if they did not combine the two tournaments.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
12-18-17 10:54 PM - Post#240486    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
I wonder if selling separate packages is a good idea. My observation is that the women's games were sparsely attended, with lingering men's game attendees constituting a significant portion of the attendance.



Well, there was actually only one game that wasn't sparsely attended in the whole thing. Last year, the Penn-Brown women's game started out poorly--worse than a typical regular season game--although it finished well with the folks filing in for the P-P men's game. I watched the first few minutes of the H-Y men's game, and that was pretty poorly attended. I did not stay for the H-Pr women's game, but from the highlights I saw, hardly anyone was there. As we know, the men's final had 3,000 something. The women's final also seemed to draw less than a typical regular season game, although in fairness, the seating policy spread people out so much that it might have seemed smaller than it was. It certainly wasn't much more, though.

My point with the women is that if it's pretty much a friends and family fest anyway, might as well make it convenient and less expensive for them to attend. I actually do agree that it would be better to have it hosted by the first place team each year; it would give them an earned advantage and get them out from under the shadow of the men a bit. The one problem would be if they continue to have the men's tournament at home sites, you would have to figure out how to squish the women in, bit that's doable.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
12-18-17 11:49 PM - Post#240490    

Need to clarify there. . . when the women's winner is the same school that is hosting the men's tournament, they would have to squish it in
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
12-19-17 10:03 AM - Post#240495    

If the post-season was truly all about the players, then there should be two tournaments with each held at the top seed. However, it appears that the IL wants to have the Tournament be about all conference stakeholders. As such, they have decided to have both tournaments at the same time.

If looking for a campus site, one option would be going with the men's #1 seed, since that team's fans will have the greatest chance of attending. If Brown (2,800 seats), Columbia (2,700), Yale (2,500), Harvard (2,200), or Dartmouth (2,100) are the #1 seed, their arenas are probably too small if the league is trying to please more than the #1 men's team and its fans. The league would seem to have an easier time if Cornell (4,500), Princeton (6,800) or Penn (8,700) were the top seed. With regards to Ithaca, hotels (and reasonably priced ones at that) are not easy to come by and many would have to get rooms in the surrounding area. I don't know how things are in Princeton with regards to available rooms.

If there were convenient accommodations around Princeton and the IL wanted to have an on-campus event, it would seem that the league would want to skip the idea of fairness and choose the Palestra or Jadwin.

With regards to neutral sites, I believe that people have looked at numerous locations over the last year or so. Mohegan Sun, Albany, Springfield, Bridgeport, Westchester (NY) and Long Island (NY) come to mind. While there is no ideal place, Mohegan Sun seems to provide the most numerous and convenient non-game related amenities for everyone involved. While being more costly and losing some of the top seed's fans, it might be able to capture a larger number of fans who are looking for a destination site and do not want to travel to the league's two most southern schools.

Last year, 5 schools participated in the 2 tournaments and it was noticeable that there was no presence (outside of a few coaches and administrators) of the other 3 schools. I believe the IL needs to increase the number of teams participating to make it a more inclusive and better attended event.

While ESPN would continue to dictate the Saturday and Sunday schedules, Friday could be used for two #4 vs #5 games. The turnaround time for the winner to play on Saturday would be difficult, but that would give an advantage to the #1 seed that is most likely not playing in its home arena or region. The Friday morning session could continue to be a ILN-televised workout day for the 6 teams that play on Saturday. If the ILN wants to do an additional televised workout day, they could have it on Thursday for the four #4 and 5 seeds.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-19-17 10:23 AM - Post#240498    

Since we are all about fairness, why don't we go to the Pro Bowler's Tour format 5 vs 4, then the winner vs 3 then the winner vs 2, then the winner vs 1. Play at home sites until the last 2 games.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
12-19-17 11:24 AM - Post#240506    

Let's take this even further: instead of having the players play basketball, have each team bowl 10 frames vs. their opponent. That would be the first round. The second round would be round-robin nine-ball tournament.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-19-17 12:10 PM - Post#240512    

Plenty of ways to win at Mohegan Sun!
(This is Not a paid advertisement)
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-19-17 12:23 PM - Post#240517    

My guess is that you will get your wish.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-19-17 02:25 PM - Post#240531    

Mohegan Sun would be a great venue. Tons of space for Varsity Club/Fan events, could even be in same large event room for mingling and Ivy League Basketball Forum foes can meet and spar in person.

Allows fans mobility in a warm and fun place. Parking is even free with direct buses. I know there are shuttles from the New London ferries and probably the adjacent Amtrak stop as well.

I’m booking my room now!
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
12-19-17 02:37 PM - Post#240532    

The big advantage of holding the tournament at Mohegan Sun is that they could probably run some sort of betting system simulation for the league. In fact, this could replace the basketball. The numbers guys would love this, because it would allow us to avoid playing all those messy games, and instead determine who the winner should be based entirely on what should happen.
QHoops
Senior
Posts 368
12-19-17 02:39 PM - Post#240533    


I thought playing the tournament at the Palestra forever is what 'should happen'.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-19-17 02:44 PM - Post#240534    

Post of the Year, and as it is Dec. 19, it is likely to win the title.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
12-19-17 02:49 PM - Post#240536    

Got my vote.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
12-19-17 02:54 PM - Post#240537    

Thank you. I'm here 'til Thursday. Be sure to tip your waitress.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
12-19-17 06:50 PM - Post#240577    

The cooties aspect of a casino setting will weigh heavily against a place like that. Doesn't fit the branding for the league as expressed in all those repetitive ads on ILDN.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
12-20-17 12:55 PM - Post#240767    

Agree.

Options are limited. The Palestra (and maybe Jadwin if you squint) is the only tournament capable arena in the league - and I get why that's a perceived problem. Mohegan Sun would be a better choice if it wasn't a casino. I'm less thrilled with other options like the AC Convention Center or Bridgeport.

I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Okoro Dude
Senior
Posts 309
12-20-17 04:37 PM - Post#240819    

Chirp . . .Chirp . . .Chirp.

The sound of crickets being heard above the noise of the players coaches and families attending an Ivy tournament at the Mohegun Sun.

If they could only get 3,000 - 5,000 for sessions in Philly at the Palestra, it will be less than half of that crowd in the middle of nowhere in Connecticut.
section110
Masters Student
Posts 847
12-21-17 10:35 AM - Post#240897    

Trenton & Bethlehem/Allentown have reasonably sized arenas; but, I'm not sure they are better choices.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-21-17 11:51 AM - Post#240930    

That’s blind to the realities. Other than Penn fans and possibly Princeton fans, Mohegan Sun is more convenient for the six other schools - that’s over 75% of the fans. Had Penn not made the tournament the Palestra would have seemed empty.

Also, it was freezing that weekend. Would have been much more welcoming and sociable to be able to stay inside and enjoy the restaurants, entertainment and Free parking Mohegan Sun has to offer.

The Ivy League cobbled together a series of out of the way, somewhat hidden spaces for fans of ‘visiting’ teams. The one I attended had maybe 40 attendees in lobby at the end of some labyrinthian journey. Some Ivy gathering. No mingling whatsoever. Finding parking was difficult and overpriced as well. Open your eyes to the reality of what really transpired. Except for Penn’s fans, it was a non-event.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
12-21-17 12:01 PM - Post#240933    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
That’s blind to the realities. Other than Penn fans and possibly Princeton fans, Mohegan Sun is more convenient for the six other schools - that’s over 75% of the fans.



The very questionable assumption here being that each school's fan base is identical in size.

I've argued here before that Bridgeport is probably the best compromise. It's an excellent venue for starters. Great modern place to see a basketball game--this is no high school gym. Right off I-95 and with easy access to Metro North so a decent chunk of the fan base could commute to the games from home or work. And somewhat more centrally located than Mohegan Sun (to be sure a nice place, having stayed there with Mrs Nation).

TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
12-21-17 12:24 PM - Post#240938    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
That’s blind to the realities. Other than Penn fans and possibly Princeton fans, Mohegan Sun is more convenient for the six other schools - that’s over 75% of the fans. Had Penn not made the tournament the Palestra would have seemed empty.


Reality is that Mohegan Sun is more convenient to only 4 of the schools (Columbia and I think also Cornell is closer to Philly). The rest of your points are highly speculative.

A big reason for the tournament is to market the league to a national audience. I don't think a Mohegan Sun tournament is the best way to do that - and that's a minus for having a tournament there.

I don't think there's an optimal solution. It's part of the reason why The Palestra will be the host again. All choices - Palestra, host at #1 seed, Mohegan Sun, Bridgeport, etc. - have their flaws. I think the best approach is a tournament that rotates among several host arenas meeting certain criteria - being able to seat at least 4-5K, adequate accessibility to hotels, reasonably located.

Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
12-21-17 01:32 PM - Post#240959    

The place needs a reasonably large, round bar where h, P and penn fans can safely hurl insults at each other with yale fans (if any exist) seated in a small side booth. Old Bear will serve the drinks and provide sage and neutral commentary.🐅
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
12-21-17 01:40 PM - Post#240963    

That's the flip side pro-Mohegan Sun argument.

When the tourney is hosted at the Palestra, go to Smokes if you want to hurl arguments. Or just want to hurl.

JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
12-21-17 04:43 PM - Post#240981    

I don't get the casino objection. If the food's good, lots of parking and rooms are available in sufficient number what's the beef? Gino Auriemma has a restaurant there for goodness sake. And there are plenty of college games there all year. As long as the tournament hosts 8 teams the options are few. The Penn at home argument holds less water this year because the four teams that get in won't be that far apart as was the case when the Quakers got in last season
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
12-21-17 05:59 PM - Post#240984    

  • Tiger69 Said:
The place needs a reasonably large, round bar where h, P and penn fans can safely hurl insults at each other with yale fans (if any exist) seated in a small side booth. Old Bear will serve the drinks and provide sage and neutral commentary.🐅




The Director of Marketing at MS is a Brown Grad and former manager of the Men's BB team, I am sure that he will make all of the Ivy visitors welcome and I am sure that he will provide a round table and a (very) small side booth.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
12-21-17 06:12 PM - Post#240986    

JG, there isn't a logistical objection as much as an image one. IL wants to project wholesome, historic, high-minded at this tourney. They haven't evolved to the ESPN level of finding gambling an amusing foible to be mentioned alongside sports.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
12-21-17 06:56 PM - Post#240989    

I think that ship, sadly, has sailed. The Ivy League's "high mindedness" has taken a back seat to a host of other considerations as far as basketball is concerned. Once the powers who run things decided on a conference tourney it marked the end of the line for the older generation who regarded the 14 game tournament as the ideal. I think the "tax reform" bill is nothing more than a reward for the GOP donor class, but I'm not going to send any $$$ I get back to DC. You don't have to like the tournament but you might as well adjust to reality.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
12-21-17 07:09 PM - Post#240990    

JG, I'm afraid you're confusing substance and image. You may well be correct substantively about the impact of the conference tournament.

But from an image point of view, Robin Harris and the league have been focused on using the tournament to get attention and "brand" the league as the classy, rooted-in-tradition, yet exciting and up-to-date place (gender equity at the tourney!) for the smart player to attend. They loved the whole "palace of basketball" stuff about the Palestra last year and played into that fawning coverage as much as possible. A louche casino setting surrounded by video-poker machines and slots methodically milking hordes of degenerate gamblers just doesn't do that job.

Mike assures us that we will not be in the Palestra next year, and I bet he's right. I have trouble believing that the venue will be a casino, however. But if wrong, I will happily admit to not perceiving the situation and its constraints correctly.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
12-21-17 07:29 PM - Post#240991    

Green, white, crimson, red, light blue, blue, brown, orange and black. Think of the exotic home team cocktail possibilities if the Tourney is staged in a casino! More fun than a Herbert Alyea chemistry lecture.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
12-21-17 08:11 PM - Post#240993    

Steve, believe me when I say that I hope you are correct. I have no desire to see the tournament go to a "louche"(love that) venue, but I am somewhat cynical about the administrators' objectives. Where else could they go for the first edition? If the tourney continues as an eight team event, where can they go other than to Jadwin? Any non-league arena serves a lot of commercial purposes, but no high minded ones.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
12-21-17 10:39 PM - Post#241000    

The stated objectives for the IL Tournament was to "showcase" IL BB and provide the student athletes with an enhanced personal experience. I suspect that it is more one vs. two. If one wants to showcase the league where would you hold a tournament? With that criteria, the Palestra gets the edge over Mohegan Sun or Bridgeport. If the criteria, also included fairness, the tournament would not be held at the Palestra. If the criteria was showcase and fairness, it would be held at a location like Madison Square Garden or possibly the Barclay Center but the ACC, Big East and actually the Big Ten will be at these two sites in 2018 so there really is no location that meets showcase and fairness criteria therefore there is an argument to go back to the Palestra. If Penn wins due to homecourt advantage, it will be somewhat tarnished but .... I have always wondered if the IL Tournament Committee really thought thru all of the issues like this one in depth -- I have my doubts. Last year was almost the perfect (disastrous) storm but the IL Tournament Committee dodged the bullet.

At the end of the day, I personally do not care about the location of the IL Tournament as it has no relevance to my fandom, albeit a limited one, as I am only interested in who wins the regular season. Fortunately, it appears that the league will be very competitive and we should see some great battles although perhaps not high quality BB this year but let's hope that teams improve.


dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
12-21-17 11:16 PM - Post#241003    

  • TheLine Said:

Reality is that Mohegan Sun is more convenient to only 4 of the schools (Columbia and I think also Cornell is closer to Philly).




Columbia and Cornell are indeed closer to Philly (though Columbia isn't much closer.) One should also keep in mind that large parts of the fan bases don't actually live in the colleges' home towns. For anyone living in North Jersey or even Brooklyn, Philly is much more convenient; even for Westchester, Philly isn't that much worse, and, of course for anyone south of Philly (Baltimore, Washington, etc.), it's no contest. Flying in from farther away? The Palestra is a 20-minute train ride from a really big airport; Mohegan Sun is an hour drive from two smaller fields (Bradley and T. F. Green).

I'd also be more persuaded that being closer to other schools would make a difference if their fans could actually drag their butts across campus for their own home games. To give the most obvious example, Harvard has gone from planning a new arena with 800 more seats than Lavietes to taking 560 seats out of Lavietes They only sold out four of the seven Ivy games last year. Yale has only managed to sell all of their 2,532 chairs twice in the last two years (you know who that was for.) Six out of the eight Ivy teams lost attendance in the league season last year. The folks on the Voy board complain all the time about how football attendance is collapsing, and many advocate various measures to improve the quality of play, including scheduling higher-echelon teams. Well, Ivy hoops is doing just that, and attendance is still falling. This points to a lot bigger problem than where we're going to have the tournament.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
12-22-17 09:33 AM - Post#241008    

Well done, DP. I am usually able to get in to Jadwin without buying a ticket. I frequently sit in the seat I purchased in a season ticket package for years four rows behind the Tiger bench. I would estimate the entire section is less than half filled, although that may change during Ivy play. On the other hand, at 70 I am one of the younger fans in that section. The student section is rarely occupied and many of those attendees are athletes who have been working out in other parts of the building. I often wonder why basketball no longer draws. As a rather passionate fan it is very difficult to understand. I watched Harvard and Boston U last night. Lots of empty seats there, too, although that won't be the case when the Tigers are in town. I love to go to that game because of the atmosphere in a full house...nothing like it.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-22-17 10:43 AM - Post#241013    

We've discussed this at length on the Penn Board---the student bodies of Ivy schools are completely different from the 1970s, when the schools had a primarily male, New England - Mid Atlantic majority who grew up in the heyday of broadcast sports. Today's student body is international, majority female with no such background in spectator sports and if they do, it's in terms of fantasy leagues and big time college basketball and football available to them on their devices at all times. Peloton is more of an attraction than attending a game. Penn has exacerbated the bad situation by being bad for 10 years and by doing so, lost what student fan base it had. But the comments about Princeton's home fans being over 70 cuts pretty close to the mark----all the devoted alumni are aging and the students over the past 10 years or so will not be replacing us. I don't know how that can change, nor do I believe a conference tournament will change the demographics that are responsible for the declining interest.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
12-22-17 11:14 AM - Post#241017    

On those increasingly rare occasions that I can get back to Jadwin for a game I can always find a nice seat in the reserved South Stand near mid court with my GA ticket (among my fellow well-aged Tigers). That's one of the reasons I miss the electric atmosphere of Dillon (and even Jadwin in those first few seasons in the late 60s). I was disappointed by the way the U botched its one return to Dillon a couple of seasons back by not even opening up all the seats (2,800+-).🙁
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
12-22-17 01:15 PM - Post#241028    

And yet, the League is promoting basketball, men's and women's, nationally, a development we should support regardless of our feelings about the tournament. The January 5 league opener may be the biggest game so far in the SD era. I would love to see The Cathedral packed to the rafters. If you get a taste of what that is like you'll want to come back!
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-22-17 01:19 PM - Post#241032    

I'll be there, of course. I don't think students from either school, who still are on break, are likely to be there in any great number.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
12-22-17 01:20 PM - Post#241033    

Lavietes will be full all Ivy season. Last home game vs UMass was sold out. Last final exam was Tuesday (12/19) and all students were supposed to be out of the dorms by day before the BU game. Stands looked rather full on ILDN.

Yale and Princeton games are sold out and there is only 1 bleacher seat left for Penn. A quick look suggests there are roughly 250 seats left for sale for the entire Ivy season.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
12-22-17 01:53 PM - Post#241036    

A bit off topic: as I lie here in Mexico awaiting another Ivy season with fond memories of past seasons, I have just completed an extraordinary book which I recommend especially to my friends out there with a little time on their hands: A Gentleman In Moscow by Amor Towles. Some of us older guys will relate strongly to its themes. Read anything that you want into that.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
12-22-17 02:03 PM - Post#241037    

Thanks....just about to go on vacation and always appreciate a recommendation for a good read.
Okoro Dude
Senior
Posts 309
01-04-18 03:26 PM - Post#242019    

That's the point. The teams are only marginally supported in terms of attendance even when they play on campus. The only reason there were 5,000 at last year's semi-final is because there were 3,000 Penn fans and a sizeable number of Princeton fans that were in the area. Hosting this in a casino in Connecticut (or likely any suitable arena other than MSG) likely means almost zero attendance. These teams just don't have large dedicated fan bases that will travel for a two-day tournament. You need at least one "host" team to sell tickets to its fans to have a respectable crowd.

FYI - as much as I enjoy the tournament in my home (and inarguably the best in Ivies) gym, I freely acknowledge the fairness factor and can see why the league might want to rotate to regular season champion's gym. But, by then, you might as well scrap the whole 2-day tourney concept and just put on the lame
Wed/Sat tournament all at campus sites.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
01-04-18 03:37 PM - Post#242022    

Based on your assumptions, 3,000 Penn fans get to enjoy their team at home, and other Ivy fans don't travel, so this is just a (meaningful) home game for Penn.

No other school has a right to that? About as unfair and prohibitive to 87.5% (competition) and 75% (travel) of other Ivy Leaguers.

Argues for rotating hosting among participants, or maybe even assigning to top seed - if timing and logistics permit - which they likely don't.
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
01-04-18 04:09 PM - Post#242024    

Pre-tournament, all of the Ivy playoff games I can remember were packed gyms at neutral sites.

I think one big problem last year was a huge amount of anti-tournament feeling. A lot of fans just didn't want to support the thing by attending.

I don't like the the tournament (hate it actually), but if it has to be then it shouldn't be played on anyone's unearned home court. Should be neutral court or home court(s) earned during the regular season.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
01-04-18 04:18 PM - Post#242026    

But we know that "fairness" had nothing to do with the decision to play the tournament--if fairness were the issue, then the regular season champion would continue to represent the Ivies. This was all about branding and strengthening the brand. It's getting us coverage in media and TV and the only place adequate for showing us in the best light is the Palestra, of which almost all college basketball fans are familiar despite being unable to name a single Ivy basketball player. Despite what was initially promoted, it was not about a great Ivy Kumbaya--indeed, they made it almost impossible for students and alumni of different schools to socialize with the schedule they created.

So let's be honest--it was all about showcasing the Ivies in their best and most well known facility in a big city. And on that they succeeded and in all likelihood, will not do so if the games are played elsewhere. I say that in full recognition that it is unfair and should not be done this way. But then again, the entire Ivy structure is "not fair" and needs to be renegotiated.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
01-04-18 04:42 PM - Post#242027    

The only way to have the tournament at the #1 seed's arena is to alternate between the women one year and the men the next. If anything is clear about the tournament it is that the 8 top teams play in two days. I do not necessarily agree that fans will not travel when NCAA bids are at stake but there may not be enough fans to fill any arena with more than 5000 seats.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
01-04-18 04:47 PM - Post#242028    

The Harvard-Yale playoff a couple of years ago was at The Palestra and was very well attended although I don't know the actual number. That may be one of the factors in the decision to hold the first two tournaments there. The Penn-Princeton playoffs were usually at Lehigh, as I recall, and the joint was rocking.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
01-04-18 04:59 PM - Post#242031    

Yes, the Harvard-Yale game was a near sellout (although Penn fans bought a lot of those tickets) but again, it was a single game for the rightful title for men's basketball and the ticket price was less than half of what they charged for the 2 day event last year. Indeed, they could sell out the tournament if they reduced the price closer to what Ivy games normally go for.

And to risk upsetting those who rightfully enjoy women's basketball, putting the two together destroys the ability to fill the place up and get everyone together since the men's games are spread out and everyone attends for the men's games. I do not believe it is a good idea to play the two together, unless you have a women's doubleheader in the morning and a men's doubleheader in the late afternoon and evening.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
01-04-18 07:22 PM - Post#242041    

The idee fixe about putting the women in with the men certainly created some unfortunate tradeoffs in scheduling and seemed to disrupt the intense atmosphere that either would generate on its own. But I doubt that the powers that be will get off that particular hobby-horse.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
01-04-18 07:32 PM - Post#242042    

If MRJames is correct and the game is moved from the Palestra next year, it would make one wonder if the intent of the IL tournament was to showcase the league if it is moved to a less prestigious location. If the IL Tournament stays at the Palestra, no current AD/Head Coach/ or Administrator should complain regarding the fairness issue as they voted for it and that includes Coach Henderson and the Princeton AD -- fans can obviously legitimately complain about the fairness issue.

Conversely, if they move the tournament next year to Jadwin, Boston, Mohegan Sun or God knows where, Penn should never complain if they win the regular season and then lose on someone else's home court or another location. Finally, if Brown/Columbia or someone else wins the IL regular season and then loses at somebody else's location, you would think that there should be silence from the universities.

In all likelihood, some fans will be ticked off no matter what happens this year, next year or beyond.

Going into this year, there are 4 possibly 5 or 6 teams that could win the IL regular season but we will find out who gets the NCAA bid within 24 hours in March -- simply brilliant.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
01-04-18 09:04 PM - Post#242048    

  • westphillywarrior Said:
Pre-tournament, all of the Ivy playoff games I can remember were packed gyms at neutral sites.




The H-Y playoff three years ago drew 5,256, which is about 60% full; however, one could argue that that compares favorably with last year's semifinal attendance of 6,209, given that a.) the playoff had only one week's notice, b.) the tournament had three more men's teams and seven more overall, and c.) Penn wasn't involved in the playoff. Last year's final attendance was only 3,833, way worse than the playoff. The first playoff in '02 between Princeton and Yale only got 2,000-something, but that was on a weeknight with two days' notice, and the Princeton fans pretty clearly saw the writing on the wall; they just had no enthusiasm whatsoever.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
01-04-18 09:28 PM - Post#242052    

  • palestra38 Said:
This was all about branding and strengthening the brand. It's getting us coverage in media and TV and the only place adequate for showing us in the best light is the Palestra, of which almost all college basketball fans are familiar despite being unable to name a single Ivy basketball player. . . So let's be honest--it was all about showcasing the Ivies in their best and most well known facility in a big city. And on that they succeeded and in all likelihood, will not do so if the games are played elsewhere.



I don't agree that they succeeded even in that. As noted in the previous post, the attendances were ordinary on the first day and poor on the second. Two years ago, Yale's clinching the championship, in a rather ordinary pennant race, got far more love in the media than Princeton's winning the final did last year--and, of course, there had been plenty of comment about the Ivy race throughout the entire league season--something that was notably lacking last year. Heck, the two recent wins by the Penn WOMEN over Princeton in the last game of the regular season got about as much attention as the men's final did last year. I don't know what the TV ratings for the men were, but given that they were on an inferior network and going up against considerably more popular games, it's hard to believe that they were all that great. This year, two of the three games will be on the Deuce, so we'll see what happens, but I still don't think it'll be all that great. If they really want to get attention, they need to move the entire schedule up a week and play it on the next-to-last weekend of the season, when the Power 5 isn't sucking all of the air out of the room.

Speaking of scheduling, I'll also note that, checking the academic calendars, once again four of the eight schools (Ca, H, Pa, Y) will be beginning or ending their spring breaks that weekend. At Dartmouth, it's right in the middle of exams, and at Princeton, it's right before midterms. Cornell is unlikely to make either cut; Brown is likely only in the women's. There goes what little student attendance you could expect.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
01-04-18 10:03 PM - Post#242055    

  • palestra38 Said:

And to risk upsetting those who rightfully enjoy women's basketball, putting the two together destroys the ability to fill the place up and get everyone together since the men's games are spread out and everyone attends for the men's games. I do not believe it is a good idea to play the two together, unless you have a women's doubleheader in the morning and a men's doubleheader in the late afternoon and evening.



In fairness, the men's games actually were together last year, so I don't see that it had much effect there one way or another. Of course, this year they are doing the opposite of what you suggested, with the men playing in the afternoon and the women in the evening. I've already noted that I think this will increase the friends-and-fam attendance for the women, since it'll be closer together and it allows a women's'-only ticket package, but it'll probably kill any other attendance, since only Tiger69, OldBear, maybe a couple of other P sickos, and myself will be sticking around for the women's games. The problem with your plan is that the men's final has to start by 1 to guarantee that it will end in time for the NCAA selection. Playing the men's semifinals in the evening means a short turn around, particularly for the winner of the second game.

I also think that the whole "Ivy get-together" thing is overrated. Yes, if we ever have a Basketball U meetup, I'll be there, but I don't have that much interest in meeting generic Brown or Harvard fans, and I doubt they have much interest in meeting me either. People are much more likely to want to go out and get some dinner with their friends or whatever. Now it is true that people will want to get together with other fans of their own teams, and the Palestra may not be well equipped for that, although with some thought a better job could probably be done than last year.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
01-04-18 10:13 PM - Post#242057    

  • SRP Said:
The idee fixe about putting the women in with the men certainly created some unfortunate tradeoffs in scheduling and seemed to disrupt the intense atmosphere that either would generate on its own. But I doubt that the powers that be will get off that particular hobby-horse.



Well, one wishes that they would get off of it, particularly since very few other conferences do it that way, and none of the bigger conferences do, where the women actually have followers. Granted, the other conferences have much larger tournaments and the logistics would be difficult, but still. . . if we're going to continue this stupid thing, the women's tournament should be held at the regular-season winner. I think that would actually allow more focus on the women then at present, and it would also increase the chances of a good crowd.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts 1871
01-04-18 11:00 PM - Post#242063    

1) I hate the tournament.

2) I enjoyed last year's tournament at the Palestra but only because the Tigers won it. I would have been royally urinated if the Tigers had lost to the Quakers on Penn's home court given the regular season performances of the two teams.

3) If there has to be a tournament, the regular season champ should host the thing and I don't give a fig if that means splitting men's and women's tournaments (as is done in some other Ivy sports with post-season tournaments).

4) I'm old enough to remember when Jadwin hosted NCAA games and the playoffs for the old ECAC Metro. It was a great venue for those events, although Jadwin used to have much larger end stands on the sides with seating that was more comfortable than the current end stand bleachers. I believe capacity was nearly 8,000 back then (and it used to sell out occassionally) but even in slightly diminished form, the current capacity is more than adequate to host an Ivy basketball tournament.

5) The 2011 Princeton-Harvard playoff at Payne Whitney was thrilling and the gym's capacity of only 2,500 (?) made it all the more exciting. The gym was split 50:50 right up the middle, making it one of the most interesting sporting events I've ever attended. That game received 50 times more media coverage than last year's Ivy tournament (granted Doug Davis' last second shot was the reason).

6) Even if Dartmouth were to win the league, I'd still have them host the tournament (if it persists), because they would have earned it. It wouldn't be the end of the world if they had to clear the gym between semi-final games if there was too much outrage about inadequate seating.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
01-05-18 11:19 PM - Post#242233    

I wonder what Robin Harris would do if the IL Tournament semi-finals on March 10th would be cancelled similar to this evening at the Palestra. Would she use the famous Ernie Banks motto "Let's play 2 on Sunday" or draw the winner out of a ceramic bowl similar to the recent tied election results in Virginia.
mbaprof
Senior
Posts 342
01-06-18 07:04 AM - Post#242245    

You raise some very good points. Selfishly Id like to see the tournament at the Palestra every year but agree it was (would be ) unfair to a strong Ivy champ from HYP to have to play PENN at home.

I don't see why Jadwin couldnt be improved as a tournament venue with better and more sideline and end line seating. Princeton could certainly afford the capital outlay (or could get if funded via donations as Nova just did to improve their airplane hanger) and im sure temp seating could be brought in , although the likelihood of frequent hosting ought to be enough to just buy it. I hate going to Princeton but its an hour drive for many of the PENN fans and close to the huge alumni bases of all schools in NYC. I've been to many football games with great tailgating/tents on campus and the weather is certainly more conducive to this in NJ in March than in New England.
Okoro Dude
Senior
Posts 309
01-08-18 12:49 PM - Post#242697    

Totally agree. The price for the tickets is silly and they did a horrible job promoting the tournament last year. You actually had to seek the tickets out and they weren't even available until February (and only on their own stupid, poorly functioning website instead of ticketmaster where it could be marketed and people would find it). If they were willing to sell tickets for 1/2 the price they are asking and promoted the tournament better among the season ticket bases and the local area, they could get 6,000 - 8,000 for both days and the atmosphere would be great. But, keeping it clubby and high-priced means empty seats even in Philly where there is the largest audience for Ivy basketball. Moving it anywhere else and it will be a much smaller event. I'm okay with that - I'll go wherever it is and enjoy it. But no point looking for arenas with more than 3,000 seats anywhere else under the current pricing and marketing strategy.
JDP
Masters Student
Posts 559
01-10-18 06:32 AM - Post#242830    

The tickets are about half as expensive this year ... for mid court section 214/215 they are $75 for all six games of the tournament ... and those seat have been selling, with five rows already gone for people who want to see the tournament regardless of who makes it.

Even the $125 chairbacks are more reasonably priced this year ... those you really have to wait until the school allotment goes on sale.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
01-28-18 12:16 PM - Post#244976    

Big weekend coming up.
- The C's are playing at home for their lives against Dartmouth, and would really be helped by a win against Harvard.
- Dartmouth - just looking for a win
- Brown at Penn and Princeton could either separate the Bear's from the other bottom 4 or put them in a hole
- Princeton and Penn should move to 5-0 and 4-1 and sitting pretty for the tournament.
- Yale - Does Mason return at Princeton and Penn?
- Harvard - will complete first 5 of 6 on the road at least 4-2, possibly better, all without a healthy Bryce Aiken and Robert Baker.

What does all of this mean? If Mason is healthy and none of Brown, Columbia or Cornell surprise this weekend, the folly of the Ivy Tournament will be exposed as HYPP will have separated themselves from the rest of the league, only to play for nothing, not even home court advantage. Even if Yale gets swept on the road to fall to 2-4, if Mason comes back strong I feel the 4th spot is a foregone conclusion. If Mason is healthy enough for Yale to win at least one of the games, this regular season is in the books, even if Columbia or Cornell win 1 or 2 this weekend.


PVD.35
Freshman
Posts 12
01-29-18 08:40 AM - Post#245057    

What if Brown splits this weekend? With a Yale split already in the books?

Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-29-18 10:10 AM - Post#245063    

It appears that Dartmouth's Coach Koclanes is a fan of having the tourney at the Palestra permanently.

http://www.vnews.com/Dartmouth-women-s-bas ketball-... (quotes at end of article)

Of course, Dartmouth will have to play better than we did against Yale on Saturday to get there.
Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts 2801
01-29-18 11:07 AM - Post#245068    

What does he care?
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
01-29-18 11:09 AM - Post#245069    

If Brown wins one at P’s it definitely separates them from the pack. Not in short term record, but certainly in long term prospects. Unless Yale does the same.

Princeton rolled at home against C’s, but Penn not as much. It will be interesting to see if Penn can win two more home contests in which it will be favored
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
01-29-18 12:04 PM - Post#245071    

  • Tiger69 Said:
What does he care?



Koclanes is female and coaches the Dartmouth women's team.

They're in the hunt.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
01-29-18 02:16 PM - Post#245085    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:


Princeton rolled at home against C’s, but Penn not as much. It will be interesting to see if Penn can win two more home contests in which it will be favored



Yet somehow Penn managed to beat Princeton. Go figure.

mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
01-29-18 03:01 PM - Post#245086    

If you're attempting to be predictive, the best thing to look at are the in-league efficiency margins (adjusted for schedule played versus where the schedule SOS will finish).

As of right now (stated in points per possession):

1) Princeton: +0.22
2) Harvard: +0.08
3) Penn: +0.05
4) Columbia: +0.04
5) Yale: -0.01
6) Brown: -0.08
7) Dartmouth: -0.08
8) Cornell: -0.20

Generally, close games tend to be governed by a bit of randomness. So, it's hard to win the league playing more closer games than another team. Efficiency margins tend to be bouncy in the beginning, but by the midway point or so, they can be a nice indicator of which teams are likely to keep churning along and which ones might be primed for some Ls.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
01-29-18 05:16 PM - Post#245105    

Absolutely. Kudos to those at Penn responsible for the decision to change coaches and for the selection. Penn fans appear rightfully overjoyed at the quick and impressive dividends that pivot has paid. Amaker, Donahue, Bagnoli and now Reno are a testament to how decisive action by administrators can turn a program around.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
01-29-18 05:31 PM - Post#245107    

Yes, that seems about right. Princeton is still the team to beat--they have the most upside, followed by Harvard (who will probably end up with a stronger figure by season's end with erstwhile injured players getting on the court more often).
mbaprof
Senior
Posts 342
01-31-18 09:10 AM - Post#245211    

of course she was "one of ours" and knows the magic of the palestra
Koclanes began her college coaching career with four seasons at the University of Pennsylvania, which hosts the Ivy tournament in the Palestra, its legendary 91-year old arena. The coach’s smile grew when asked what playing there in March would do for her program.

“That’s the cathedral of college basketball, and I’ve been to many games there, men’s and women’s, where it’s so crowded you can’t move,” Koclanes said. “I want my players to experience what that’s like, because it’s an amazing environment.”
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-01-18 07:54 AM - Post#245342    

  • mbaprof Said:
of course she was "one of ours" and knows the magic of the palestra
Koclanes began her college coaching career with four seasons at the University of Pennsylvania, which hosts the Ivy tournament in the Palestra, its legendary 91-year old arena. The coach’s smile grew when asked what playing there in March would do for her program.

“That’s the cathedral of college basketball, and I’ve been to many games there, men’s and women’s, where it’s so crowded you can’t move,” Koclanes said. “I want my players to experience what that’s like, because it’s an amazing environment.”



This could be her last chance to get there. You have to think that she's on the hot seat.

Dartmouth has shown some good improvement this season. Our strong OOC performance might give Koclanes another year if she narrowly misses the tournament this season. But... she'll be doing herself a great favor by qualifying.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
02-02-18 10:29 AM - Post#245500    

Belle Koclanes is in her 5th year with Dartmouth. Before her arrival, the Big Green were coached by Chris Wielgus, who lead the team from '76-'84 and '93-'13. Wielgus led the program to 12 titles in her 28 years with the last coming in '08-09 (18-11; 13-1 Ivy).

Wielgus' last four years:
'09-'10 -- 11-17 (6-8 Ivy)
'10-'11 -- 7-21 (3-11)
'11 - '12 -- 6-22 (4-10)
'12 - '13 -- 6-22 (4-10)

Koclanes first four+ years:
'13 - '14 -- 5-23 (2-12 Ivy)
'14 - '15 -- 14-14 (5-9)
'15 - '16 -- 12-18 (7-7)
'16 - '17 -- 8-19 (3-11)
'17 - '18 -- 10-7 (2-2)

It appears that she was tasked with rebuilding a once proud program and has been doing that. Seeing how the team is playing this year, it would appear that the 2016-2017 season was an aberration.

Not knowing the program or the school well, I would not be aware how much support or funding is given to women's basketball. My assumption is that it is not being given as much as Harvard, Penn and Princeton, which have consistently been the top 3 programs for Koclanes' time at Dartmouth. With lesser financial support, it is going to be difficult for any coach of the other 5 schools to consistently be in the upper division.

Reading and listening to her interviews, she appears to be a genuinely positive person who is respected by her players. She and her spouse also seem to active members of the Dartmouth athletic community. As a result, I would think that Dartmouth would be lucky to have her as their coach.
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts 1169
02-02-18 11:12 AM - Post#245514    

Interesting that her official title is The Gail Koziara Boudreaux '82 and Family Head Coach.

Boudreaux. Now where have I seen that name before?
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
02-02-18 01:42 PM - Post#245580    

  • T.P.F.K.A.D.W. Said:
Interesting that her official title is The Gail Koziara Boudreaux '82 and Family Head Coach.

Boudreaux. Now where have I seen that name before?



Although she was before my time, Gail was without a doubt the best female basketball player at Dartmouth and likely would make the starting lineup of the All-Time Ivy women's team.

As for Evan... what could have been!!!
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
02-02-18 01:57 PM - Post#245584    

What could have been?



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