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Username Post: Inquirer Story on Tough Road Trip
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 10:15 AM - Post#247652    

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/penn-qu akers-b...
10Q
Professor
Posts 15510
02-13-18 10:28 AM - Post#247653    

Interesting.

On a slightly unrelated topic, I don't really understand why back to back weekends are so grueling. These are kids. They should be able to bounce back the next day. League tournaments have games 3 straight days and you don't hear much about that being so grueling. I guess maybe Steve Danley can weigh in and show me where I am wrong.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 5315
02-13-18 10:41 AM - Post#247654    

I did an analysis once and found that hosting a Saturday night was worth about a point (over and above the usual HCA), and that was pretty universal across different Ivy road trips.

So, it seems like there's a small effect, but nothing as pronounced as some have described.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 10:46 AM - Post#247655    

Yes, but is a Friday night game in Hanover, followed by a bus ride to Cambridge in which they get in at midnight, probably to bed at 1-2, with a 4 pm game the next day the same as a generic "saturday night road game"? Leave aside that they played 5 games in 8 days.
HARVARDDADGRAD
PhD Student
Posts 1268
02-13-18 10:51 AM - Post#247656    

Hmmm, seems like these are some very good reasons to play the Ivy Tournament at a neutral site or at the gym of the higher seed.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 10:58 AM - Post#247658    

How's that? Those games will be a week after the last game

mrjames
Professor
Posts 5315
02-13-18 11:10 AM - Post#247659    

I think we're making far, far too much of the timing thing.

Like on the flip side, do we really think that Yale getting to play Harvard at 9:30pm this Saturday will differentially benefit them over a normal 7:00pm tip?

Certainly Vegas didn't think it had any impact last weekend, and I don't suspect they'll think it has any impact this weekend either.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 11:11 AM - Post#247660    

It cannot be proven, but I think it is common sense that 10 hours of driving leading to the 5th game in 8 days is not typical of anything Yale has to do in a late game against Harvard.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 11:28 AM - Post#247662    

In P38's world, every single piece of data is a corner case. They're all outliers, baby!
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 11:29 AM - Post#247663    

Yo Jeff, why don't you just STFU for once in your life. If you want to bring something to the table, fine, but otherwise, see above.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 11:34 AM - Post#247664    

P38: I think something
Mike James: That's interesting but the data shows that what you think isn't happening to the degree you do.
P38: The data doesn't realize this is an outlier.

PRETTY MUCH EVERY THREAD. It must stink to have analytics to crap on every thought you've had for the past 50 years. I feel for you bro. I do.


HARVARDDADGRAD
PhD Student
Posts 1268
02-13-18 11:35 AM - Post#247665    

Sure, then lets schedule the tournament at a neutral site and move everyone's exam and vacation schedule so Penn isn't the only team finishing a week's vacation while most others have been taking midterms and submitting papers.

Which is worse? A game an hour away on a Tuesday or 4 finals/papers being completed on your 6+ hour bus ride to play a conference tournament at your opponent's home court.

By the way, a fair amount of Friday games have been scheduled for 8pm this year and a lot of Saturday games at 6pm. That means Penn (and Harvard) lost an hour.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 11:41 AM - Post#247666    

They are different issues. I agree with you that it is not "fair" to have the tournament at Penn. On the other hand, it is not "fair" to have a tournament at all. I would prefer that we don't have one. But obviously, "fairness" is not the touchstone of having a tournament, branding and visibility is. And for that, the Palestra really is the only place to have it. But the travel and time is not any kind of hindrance in a tournament.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 11:42 AM - Post#247667    

I said nothing controversial nor questioned any metrics. You simply are a troll, and I can't stand trolls. You have an opinion, post it, but if you keep attacking me for no reason, just STFU and do something with your life.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 5315
02-13-18 11:50 AM - Post#247669    

When our standard to change our priors is to have something definitively, 100% proven wrong, we make Reverend Bayes cry.

But I agree that Steve’s input would be interesting here.

I’ve been a little surprised that some of the key takeaways from that game were the reffing was bad and scheduling was unfair. There are some real things to work on both for Harvard and for Penn in advance of the rematch that I believe make the legs/ref issues trivial by comparison. The team that cleans up those former issues better is the one better positioned to win the rematch.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 11:50 AM - Post#247670    

I left the board for two weeks and you still managed to get into fights with SomeGuy and made the board "unreadable" according to some posters. So who was the common denominator? That's right, Antonio! The jerk. Nope, just kidding, it was you, bro. you.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-13-18 11:56 AM - Post#247671    

  • palestra38 Said:
It cannot be proven, but I think it is common sense that 10 hours of driving leading to the 5th game in 8 days is not typical of anything Yale has to do in a late game against Harvard.



Yeah, it's the cumulative effect. Also the longest road trip for a single game in the league.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 12:08 PM - Post#247675    

Actually that never happened but it's nice of you to make it up. You simply go out and look for trouble. Stop it.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 12:11 PM - Post#247676    

I never said the reffing was bad. Sure there were a few questionable calls, but the game was decided on Harvard hitting its shots and Penn not hitting its shots. In my view, tired legs had something to do with that. But Harvard was the better team and deserved to win.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 12:15 PM - Post#247677    

http://boards.basketball-u.com/showtopic.php?tid/2...

yeah, Trumpian, unreadable.


But I made things up.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 12:22 PM - Post#247680    

If you think that makes me a troll like you, you have problems. I don't go personally attacking people for no reason and in conversations I am not participating in. Again, STOP IT. I'm not the only one to tell you this, as you know. Leave it alone and make conversation....but stop trolling.
10Q
Professor
Posts 15510
02-13-18 12:35 PM - Post#247684    

Reason or not, the attacks should stop.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 12:44 PM - Post#247687    

if it helps you sleep at night to know that you regularly get mixed up in arguments where you're on the wrong side of data and call people names on the regular (are you really using a who started it defense?), then i wish you all the best bro.

But you regularly, repeatedly ignore data that doesn't fit your view of things. I'm not the only one who notices this.
yoyo
Junior
Posts 209
02-13-18 12:47 PM - Post#247688    

stop feeding him. He only shows up here after a penn loss.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 12:50 PM - Post#247689    

We were on a break!


dperry
PhD Student
Posts 1091
dperry
02-13-18 12:53 PM - Post#247690    

Folks, this team needed incredible luck to go 14-0. If this is the most disappointing Ivy loss of the year, we're (by which I mean the Penn we's ) all going to be ecstatic at the end of the season.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

yoyo
Junior
Posts 209
02-13-18 12:56 PM - Post#247692    

I would doubt everybody will.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-13-18 01:02 PM - Post#247694    

Funny, but I wonder how many folks here got that reference.
AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts 3903
02-13-18 01:18 PM - Post#247697    

Last night during the ND/NC game they specifically commented on how hard it was on NC having to play 3 games in 5 days. They discussed the wear and tear on the body and showed pictures of the ice baths NC has their kids take after the games to help their muscles recover (an incredible facility by the way). At any rate, the impact of the Tues, Fri, Sat grind, compounded by the travel, that the kids from both Penn and Princeton went through last week was real. It doesn't mean that both had to struggle the way they did, but it certainly can't be dismissed as a non factor.

NC did win the game handily last night but ND has been battling injuries to its best players and couldn't stay with them for 40 minutes.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 01:24 PM - Post#247701    

Asia's post is the reason I'm not interested in Steve's perspective (just this one time!). Humans/players whoever overestimate things like this all the time. The thing is, 1 point isn't nothing. 2 points is also... not nothing. But when a person feels something like that, they have a tendency to over-ascribe the impact. And actually, I believe there's a double whammy going on:

1. Person thinks the impact is huge.
2. Even if person thinks the impact is only "medium" they're likely to ascribe that to being like 4-6 points worth of impact when actually a medium impact is really 2-3 points (or whatever).
10Q
Professor
Posts 15510
02-13-18 01:24 PM - Post#247702    

Three in 5 is worse than 2 in 2.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-13-18 01:36 PM - Post#247706    

And UNC had it way, way easy compared to Penn's 5 in 8 days. 2 of UNC's games were 30 minutes or less from campus, and presumably they flew to South Bend (or Chicago) instead of going on a very, very long round trip via bus.

  • AsiaSunset Said:
Last night during the ND/NC game they specifically commented on how hard it was on NC having to play 3 games in 5 days. They discussed the wear and tear on the body and showed pictures of the ice baths NC has their kids take after the games to help their muscles recover (an incredible facility by the way). At any rate, the impact of the Tues, Fri, Sat grind, compounded by the travel, that the kids from both Penn and Princeton went through last week was real. It doesn't mean that both had to struggle the way they did, but it certainly can't be dismissed as a non factor.

NC did win the game handily last night but ND has been battling injuries to its best players and couldn't stay with them for 40 minutes.



PennFan10
PhD Student
Posts 1981
02-13-18 01:52 PM - Post#247709    

  • mrjames Said:
When our standard to change our priors is to have something definitively, 100% proven wrong, we make Reverend Bayes cry.

But I agree that Steve’s input would be interesting here.

I’ve been a little surprised that some of the key takeaways from that game were the reffing was bad and scheduling was unfair. There are some real things to work on both for Harvard and for Penn in advance of the rematch that I believe make the legs/ref issues trivial by comparison. The team that cleans up those former issues better is the one better positioned to win the rematch.



I call BS on this. Show me where anyone said the refs were bad? I pointed out a 22-9 disparity in Free Throws which I believe is indisputable fact and offered no commentary other than to say it didn’t impact the result.

As far as the Travel and timing we know it had an impact on Max due to his documented issues. Whether that had any affect on LEWIS taking 14 shots and making 10 I don’t know but I will take the under on either of those in the rematch. I also think Towns will play better next time as well. The next game is unlikely to resemble the first for a number of reasons from strategy to circumstances.

Harvard was the better team Saturday which doesn’t prove they are better overall. They may be and that’s why the adjustments for next weeks rematch will carry a lot of intrigue.

You highlight the lob pass to Lewis. That’s a very difficult pass to execute and kudos to H for doing it repeatedly. Penn also got caught in some rotations as a result of that strategy that led to defensive lapses and easy buckets. I expect that to get cleaned up. If Aiken plays I doubt Lewis takes 14 shots and then I doubt Aiken shoots 71%. If he does we lose anyway.

We have some guys not practicing much in order to be ready for games so recovery times for injured players would seem to have an inordinate affect on games when you play so many in a short time frame, so the impact on travel and timing would be amplified. None of those factors will be in play next week.

AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts 3903
02-13-18 01:54 PM - Post#247710    

Well of course Penn Nation is correct. We not only played the same 3 in 5 as NC did (ours were all away games as well), but when you consider the previous back to back the weekend before Princeton, it was 5 games in 8 days.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 5315
02-13-18 02:58 PM - Post#247720    

On the reffing point - I spend more time around the games looking at twitter than these boards, and there was definitely carping on there about having to go up against Harvard and the refs. On here, I saw some complaining about calls, but not really a wholesale blaming of the loss on the refs. I blend both into my impression of what fans perceive.

The biggest thing on the other side is that Penn exposed Harvard's on ball defense in a way I haven't seen. To the extent there are Saturday legs, I think that will be something to watch and see if Penn can do again. Rarely do guys like Bassey and Juzang get beat off the dribble.
10Q
Professor
Posts 15510
02-13-18 03:12 PM - Post#247722    

All I'm saying is that back to backs, generally speaking, are not a big deal.
HARVARDDADGRAD
PhD Student
Posts 1268
02-13-18 03:19 PM - Post#247723    

With the previous back to back and then Princeton it was 5 in 12 days (not 5 in 8). 4 games at home and 1 at Princeton. Every Ivy weekend is 4 in 9 days. With this weekend's games, it became 7 in 16 days (usually 6 in 16) or 5 in 9 (usually 4 in 9) for Penn.

None of this compares to most major conference tourney's. Didn't Syracuse win 4 or 5 games in as many days one year? Every game against a well rested opponent?

Anyway, Harvard's defensive intensity tends to abate in the second half because the guards wear down without Bryce. That seems to have happened Saturday and I note that Harvard's 3 starting guards played 35, 37 and 39 minutes the night before. Wood and Betley started driving and hitting shots in the second half as well. Either they weren't tired, OR Harvard's guards were, OR, it was just the way it worked out. That's how Penn took a 16 point deficit down to the final margin of 9.
PennFan10
PhD Student
Posts 1981
02-13-18 03:33 PM - Post#247730    

Friday Feb 2nd v Brown
Sat Feb 3 v Yale
Tues Feb 6 @P
Friday Feb 9 @D
Sat Feb 10 @ H

Feb 2-Feb 10 = 8 days

2 at home, 3 on the road.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-13-18 03:37 PM - Post#247733    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:

None of this compares to most major conference tourney's. Didn't Syracuse win 4 or 5 games in as many days one year? Every game against a well rested opponent?



Entirely different scenario, of course, since those other teams earned the byes and extra rest.

Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 3819
02-13-18 03:39 PM - Post#247734    

i think if you count out the days (as I do on my hand, cus ANALYTICS!) you get 9 days. and more technically it's 8 days and 2 hours if you don't count Feb 2 until the 7p.m. tipoff.

But there's no way to get to 11 days unless you use Harvard grade inflation.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 5315
02-13-18 03:41 PM - Post#247735    

Yeah, it’s technically nine days because it’s an inclusive range not an exclusive range, which is why you get nine when you count it out versus normal subtraction which would treat it like an exclusive range.
HARVARDDADGRAD
PhD Student
Posts 1268
02-13-18 03:45 PM - Post#247736    

My initial observation was through the Princeton game.

I would think Feb 2nd counts as a day, but it doesn't really matter.

Not worth it. If Penn thinks the scheduling puts it at a disadvantage then let it play Princeton 2x early like everyone else does.

Finally, for all of these issues, I note that both of Harvard's point guards are out. Gotta think that has an impact as well, if for nothing else than it forces 3 guards + one freshman backup to play 120 minutes every game. Hoping Bryce is back for the tournament. Even if he can't revert to First Team Ivy League status, he can help his team by giving others much needed in game rest.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-13-18 03:48 PM - Post#247737    

Only I could count wrong on my fingers.

(But it is only 8 days minus 1 hour if you start at 7 pm on Friday, when the first game in the series started)
SteveDanley
Freshman
Posts 97
02-13-18 04:40 PM - Post#247744    

  • Jeff2sf Said:
Asia's post is the reason I'm not interested in Steve's perspective (just this one time!). Humans/players whoever overestimate things like this all the time.



You guys set me up!

A couple of thoughts:

In my experience, college practices are typically much more grinding than games. So it's rarely the actual play that is the killer in the 5 in 8 days situation, especially because coaches wind down the practices.

The travel is really difficult -- especially that 7 1/2 hour bus trip to Dartmouth. I still have nightmares about every different position in the bus across seats. Large people, small bus. Not great. At any given point in the season, it wasn't uncommon for us to have 1/3 to 1/2 the team getting treatment for back tightness or other related issues.

The sleep thing is hard too. If you're playing, games end at 9 and you haven't eaten. Then you get straight on the bus with some food. By the time you check into the new hotel, calm down, get more food, it's often 1 or 2. Coaches typically compound the problem through the belief that it's best for players to "get moving" early the next day, so you're up for mandatory breakfast, then shootaround, then an hour or two nap, then pre-game meal, then to the court to loosen up. It's a tough stretch.

I find the 1 point research somewhat believable -- this several games in several days effect interacts with all kinds of other physical maintenance issues (I think travel is baked into home-away dynamic already, and that coaches regularly burn out their players legs in season anyway). Almost everyone I played with felt like the grind of the season took a fair bit off their athleticism -- so any effect is on the margin, and players play at 85% a lot anyway.

The tougher thing for me was school -- once I started playing regular minutes, I essentially stopped being able to do school work on game days. I was just too fired up. That means you come back from a stretch like 5 in 8 days, and you want to sleep for a week, you've just logged god knows how many bus hours, and you're easily 500 pages and a paper or two behind in school. If you dropped a game towards the end of the stretch, it gets worse because the practices get harder and longer (Dunph's rule was no Tuesday practice when we were in 1st place in the league -- that day off was heaven). But otherwise, you sleep all day Sunday, then back to the grind Monday morning with a lift, classes, and a long practice.
SteveDanley
Freshman
Posts 97
02-13-18 04:50 PM - Post#247745    

  • SteveDanley Said:
Coaches typically compound the problem through the belief that it's best for players to "get moving" early the next day, so you're up for mandatory breakfast, then shootaround, then an hour or two nap, then pre-game meal, then to the court to loosen up. It's a tough stretch.




You guys have me going down nostalgia row, so excuse me for a minute as I story tell.

One of the funnier dynamics on these road trips is that at shootaround we, as starters, desperately tried not to break a sweat (under the perhaps superstitious belief that it's harder to get loose a second time during the day, so we avoided it at shoot around if possible).

But guys who weren't playing a lot enjoyed the opportunity to get to be on the scout team and get a lot of shots / impress coaches. We had a lot of shootaround heroes -- guys out of the rotation that would torch starters at shoot around while starters went half speed.

Then the coaches would get on the starters, the starters would get pissy and have to play harder, etc.

Oh college road trips.
Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts 451
02-14-18 07:12 AM - Post#247795    

do most college teams take busses, or is this an ancient eight thing/ rule?
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-14-18 09:54 AM - Post#247819    

I would imagine that most DI teams fly when they can, unless the game is within 4-5 hours drive. I'm also guessing that the lowest level (and poorest) DI schools, such as the MEAC, probably drive to all of their games.


section110
Masters Student
Posts 754
02-14-18 11:54 AM - Post#247836    

Since the Ivy League universities cannot afford two sets of away uniforms, I'm sure air travel is beyond them.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-14-18 11:57 AM - Post#247838    

I never knew that there were people bothered by the fact that home teams wear white the second night of a back to back. NBA teams switch uniforms all the time. Why is this a big deal?
section110
Masters Student
Posts 754
02-14-18 12:42 PM - Post#247850    

The point I was trying to make, with tongue firmly in cheek, is that a conference that has ambitions of moving up to be a two or multiple bid league,(at least that's what the people on this board want) still penny pincehes like minor conferences are forced to. Our league consists of 8 of the wealthiest universities in the world; but only has 1 and a half decent facilities.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-14-18 12:58 PM - Post#247853    

OK, sorry for missing the joke. Fact is that others seem to be bothered by the 1-uniform rule.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 3585
02-14-18 01:21 PM - Post#247857    

Steve Danley's insight is facinating. I saw a short look-in video about Jay Wright's practices a year or two ago, and he seemed obsessed with protecting his players' legs.
SteveDanley
Freshman
Posts 97
02-14-18 02:04 PM - Post#247861    

  • Charlie Fog Said:
do most college teams take busses, or is this an ancient eight thing/ rule?



It's been a decade since I've been really involved in college hoops -- but I never thought there was an Ivy rule about flying, and we regularly flew for tournaments. We even flew to Dartmouth one year (though that's still a tough trip - I don't even remember what the airport was).

My impression from talking to other mid-majors was that they did it similarly -- busses for close trips and most league opponents, flights for everything else.
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
Masters Student
Posts 856
02-14-18 02:28 PM - Post#247863    

  • SteveDanley Said:

My impression from talking to other mid-majors was that they did it similarly -- busses for close trips and most league opponents, flights for everything else.


And SEPTA for Temple.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 19970
02-14-18 03:00 PM - Post#247866    

When was the last time you saw that happen?
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-14-18 03:01 PM - Post#247867    

Some of us even walk to Temple.
10Q
Professor
Posts 15510
02-14-18 03:37 PM - Post#247869    

I walk to Shul, but not Temple.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 11982
02-14-18 03:47 PM - Post#247870    

There's a statistically significant correlation (p= .01) between the appearance of the word "poop" and some frivolity.

Thanks for being the Game Script where a team trailing the whole game wins it in the final 30 seconds.


DJ Jazzy Jeff
Freshman
Posts 58
02-14-18 04:40 PM - Post#247872    

If you're referring to the stain on Max's shorts, that was the cyst on his tailbone rupturing (for the 2nd time) and not "poop".
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3362
02-14-18 05:43 PM - Post#247875    

  • DJ Jazzy Jeff Said:
If you're referring to the stain on Max's shorts, that was the cyst on his tailbone rupturing (for the 2nd time) and not "poop".



I absolutely, positively, did not need to know that.
PennFan10
PhD Student
Posts 1981
02-14-18 07:28 PM - Post#247879    

Yea, i would have preferred to skip that information.
HARVARDDADGRAD
PhD Student
Posts 1268
02-14-18 08:45 PM - Post#247885    

Since we’re being blunt, I remember the sequence and wondering why he was recoiling and looking like he’d been hit in the family jewels when the replay didn’t show that.

Quakers03
Professor
Posts 8559
02-14-18 09:57 PM - Post#247893    

I can't imagine having to play and deal with Lewis through that. What's the prognosis? Will it keep recurring?
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 178
02-15-18 10:36 AM - Post#247916    

Tough kid. Thank you Max for making the trip and playing through that. Get well soon.
Streamers
Postdoc
Posts 2910
Streamers
02-15-18 12:33 PM - Post#247927    

Yeah, what he said. I think in many ways Max embodies the soul of this team and it's ability to play through adversity.
AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts 3903
02-15-18 01:54 PM - Post#247930    

Wasn't sure what the problem was last weekend and thought Max probably had a virus, but it was clear something wasn't right. He had no lift and was getting outplayed by the other teams big. Chris Lewis is very good but he had a career day against us and Will Emery looked like a 1st team All Ivy big (which he's not) in the Dartmouth game.



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