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| Username | Post: Inquirer Story on Tough Road Trip | |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 11:15 AM - Post#247652
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/penn-qu akers-b... |
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10Q Professor Posts 23360 |
02-13-18 11:28 AM - Post#247653
Interesting. On a slightly unrelated topic, I don't really understand why back to back weekends are so grueling. These are kids. They should be able to bounce back the next day. League tournaments have games 3 straight days and you don't hear much about that being so grueling. I guess maybe Steve Danley can weigh in and show me where I am wrong. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-13-18 11:41 AM - Post#247654
I did an analysis once and found that hosting a Saturday night was worth about a point (over and above the usual HCA), and that was pretty universal across different Ivy road trips. So, it seems like there's a small effect, but nothing as pronounced as some have described. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 11:46 AM - Post#247655
Yes, but is a Friday night game in Hanover, followed by a bus ride to Cambridge in which they get in at midnight, probably to bed at 1-2, with a 4 pm game the next day the same as a generic "saturday night road game"? Leave aside that they played 5 games in 8 days. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-13-18 11:51 AM - Post#247656
Hmmm, seems like these are some very good reasons to play the Ivy Tournament at a neutral site or at the gym of the higher seed. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 11:58 AM - Post#247658
How's that? Those games will be a week after the last game |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-13-18 12:10 PM - Post#247659
I think we're making far, far too much of the timing thing. Like on the flip side, do we really think that Yale getting to play Harvard at 9:30pm this Saturday will differentially benefit them over a normal 7:00pm tip? Certainly Vegas didn't think it had any impact last weekend, and I don't suspect they'll think it has any impact this weekend either. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 12:11 PM - Post#247660
It cannot be proven, but I think it is common sense that 10 hours of driving leading to the 5th game in 8 days is not typical of anything Yale has to do in a late game against Harvard. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 12:28 PM - Post#247662
In P38's world, every single piece of data is a corner case. They're all outliers, baby! |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 12:29 PM - Post#247663
Yo Jeff, why don't you just STFU for once in your life. If you want to bring something to the table, fine, but otherwise, see above. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 12:34 PM - Post#247664
P38: I think something Mike James: That's interesting but the data shows that what you think isn't happening to the degree you do. P38: The data doesn't realize this is an outlier. PRETTY MUCH EVERY THREAD. It must stink to have analytics to crap on every thought you've had for the past 50 years. I feel for you bro. I do. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-13-18 12:35 PM - Post#247665
Sure, then lets schedule the tournament at a neutral site and move everyone's exam and vacation schedule so Penn isn't the only team finishing a week's vacation while most others have been taking midterms and submitting papers. Which is worse? A game an hour away on a Tuesday or 4 finals/papers being completed on your 6+ hour bus ride to play a conference tournament at your opponent's home court. By the way, a fair amount of Friday games have been scheduled for 8pm this year and a lot of Saturday games at 6pm. That means Penn (and Harvard) lost an hour. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 12:41 PM - Post#247666
They are different issues. I agree with you that it is not "fair" to have the tournament at Penn. On the other hand, it is not "fair" to have a tournament at all. I would prefer that we don't have one. But obviously, "fairness" is not the touchstone of having a tournament, branding and visibility is. And for that, the Palestra really is the only place to have it. But the travel and time is not any kind of hindrance in a tournament. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 12:42 PM - Post#247667
I said nothing controversial nor questioned any metrics. You simply are a troll, and I can't stand trolls. You have an opinion, post it, but if you keep attacking me for no reason, just STFU and do something with your life. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-13-18 12:50 PM - Post#247669
When our standard to change our priors is to have something definitively, 100% proven wrong, we make Reverend Bayes cry. But I agree that Steve’s input would be interesting here. I’ve been a little surprised that some of the key takeaways from that game were the reffing was bad and scheduling was unfair. There are some real things to work on both for Harvard and for Penn in advance of the rematch that I believe make the legs/ref issues trivial by comparison. The team that cleans up those former issues better is the one better positioned to win the rematch. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 12:50 PM - Post#247670
I left the board for two weeks and you still managed to get into fights with SomeGuy and made the board "unreadable" according to some posters. So who was the common denominator? That's right, Antonio! The jerk. Nope, just kidding, it was you, bro. you. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-13-18 12:56 PM - Post#247671
It cannot be proven, but I think it is common sense that 10 hours of driving leading to the 5th game in 8 days is not typical of anything Yale has to do in a late game against Harvard. Yeah, it's the cumulative effect. Also the longest road trip for a single game in the league. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 01:08 PM - Post#247675
Actually that never happened but it's nice of you to make it up. You simply go out and look for trouble. Stop it. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 01:11 PM - Post#247676
I never said the reffing was bad. Sure there were a few questionable calls, but the game was decided on Harvard hitting its shots and Penn not hitting its shots. In my view, tired legs had something to do with that. But Harvard was the better team and deserved to win. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 01:15 PM - Post#247677
http://boards.basketball-u.com/showtopic.php?tid/2... yeah, Trumpian, unreadable. But I made things up. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 01:22 PM - Post#247680
If you think that makes me a troll like you, you have problems. I don't go personally attacking people for no reason and in conversations I am not participating in. Again, STOP IT. I'm not the only one to tell you this, as you know. Leave it alone and make conversation....but stop trolling. |
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10Q Professor Posts 23360 |
02-13-18 01:35 PM - Post#247684
Reason or not, the attacks should stop. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 01:44 PM - Post#247687
if it helps you sleep at night to know that you regularly get mixed up in arguments where you're on the wrong side of data and call people names on the regular (are you really using a who started it defense?), then i wish you all the best bro. But you regularly, repeatedly ignore data that doesn't fit your view of things. I'm not the only one who notices this. |
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yoyo Senior Posts 363 |
02-13-18 01:47 PM - Post#247688
stop feeding him. He only shows up here after a penn loss. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 01:50 PM - Post#247689
We were on a break! |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2214 
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02-13-18 01:53 PM - Post#247690
Folks, this team needed incredible luck to go 14-0. If this is the most disappointing Ivy loss of the year, we're (by which I mean the Penn we's  ) all going to be ecstatic at the end of the season.
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yoyo Senior Posts 363 |
02-13-18 01:56 PM - Post#247692
I would doubt everybody will. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-13-18 02:02 PM - Post#247694
Funny, but I wonder how many folks here got that reference. |
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AsiaSunset Postdoc Posts 4358 |
02-13-18 02:18 PM - Post#247697
Last night during the ND/NC game they specifically commented on how hard it was on NC having to play 3 games in 5 days. They discussed the wear and tear on the body and showed pictures of the ice baths NC has their kids take after the games to help their muscles recover (an incredible facility by the way). At any rate, the impact of the Tues, Fri, Sat grind, compounded by the travel, that the kids from both Penn and Princeton went through last week was real. It doesn't mean that both had to struggle the way they did, but it certainly can't be dismissed as a non factor. NC did win the game handily last night but ND has been battling injuries to its best players and couldn't stay with them for 40 minutes. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 02:24 PM - Post#247701
Asia's post is the reason I'm not interested in Steve's perspective (just this one time!). Humans/players whoever overestimate things like this all the time. The thing is, 1 point isn't nothing. 2 points is also... not nothing. But when a person feels something like that, they have a tendency to over-ascribe the impact. And actually, I believe there's a double whammy going on: 1. Person thinks the impact is huge. 2. Even if person thinks the impact is only "medium" they're likely to ascribe that to being like 4-6 points worth of impact when actually a medium impact is really 2-3 points (or whatever). |
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10Q Professor Posts 23360 |
02-13-18 02:24 PM - Post#247702
Three in 5 is worse than 2 in 2. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-13-18 02:36 PM - Post#247706
And UNC had it way, way easy compared to Penn's 5 in 8 days. 2 of UNC's games were 30 minutes or less from campus, and presumably they flew to South Bend (or Chicago) instead of going on a very, very long round trip via bus.
Last night during the ND/NC game they specifically commented on how hard it was on NC having to play 3 games in 5 days. They discussed the wear and tear on the body and showed pictures of the ice baths NC has their kids take after the games to help their muscles recover (an incredible facility by the way). At any rate, the impact of the Tues, Fri, Sat grind, compounded by the travel, that the kids from both Penn and Princeton went through last week was real. It doesn't mean that both had to struggle the way they did, but it certainly can't be dismissed as a non factor. NC did win the game handily last night but ND has been battling injuries to its best players and couldn't stay with them for 40 minutes. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3584 |
02-13-18 02:52 PM - Post#247709
When our standard to change our priors is to have something definitively, 100% proven wrong, we make Reverend Bayes cry. But I agree that Steve’s input would be interesting here. I’ve been a little surprised that some of the key takeaways from that game were the reffing was bad and scheduling was unfair. There are some real things to work on both for Harvard and for Penn in advance of the rematch that I believe make the legs/ref issues trivial by comparison. The team that cleans up those former issues better is the one better positioned to win the rematch. I call BS on this. Show me where anyone said the refs were bad? I pointed out a 22-9 disparity in Free Throws which I believe is indisputable fact and offered no commentary other than to say it didn’t impact the result. As far as the Travel and timing we know it had an impact on Max due to his documented issues. Whether that had any affect on LEWIS taking 14 shots and making 10 I don’t know but I will take the under on either of those in the rematch. I also think Towns will play better next time as well. The next game is unlikely to resemble the first for a number of reasons from strategy to circumstances. Harvard was the better team Saturday which doesn’t prove they are better overall. They may be and that’s why the adjustments for next weeks rematch will carry a lot of intrigue. You highlight the lob pass to Lewis. That’s a very difficult pass to execute and kudos to H for doing it repeatedly. Penn also got caught in some rotations as a result of that strategy that led to defensive lapses and easy buckets. I expect that to get cleaned up. If Aiken plays I doubt Lewis takes 14 shots and then I doubt Aiken shoots 71%. If he does we lose anyway. We have some guys not practicing much in order to be ready for games so recovery times for injured players would seem to have an inordinate affect on games when you play so many in a short time frame, so the impact on travel and timing would be amplified. None of those factors will be in play next week. |
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AsiaSunset Postdoc Posts 4358 |
02-13-18 02:54 PM - Post#247710
Well of course Penn Nation is correct. We not only played the same 3 in 5 as NC did (ours were all away games as well), but when you consider the previous back to back the weekend before Princeton, it was 5 games in 8 days. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-13-18 03:58 PM - Post#247720
On the reffing point - I spend more time around the games looking at twitter than these boards, and there was definitely carping on there about having to go up against Harvard and the refs. On here, I saw some complaining about calls, but not really a wholesale blaming of the loss on the refs. I blend both into my impression of what fans perceive. The biggest thing on the other side is that Penn exposed Harvard's on ball defense in a way I haven't seen. To the extent there are Saturday legs, I think that will be something to watch and see if Penn can do again. Rarely do guys like Bassey and Juzang get beat off the dribble. |
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10Q Professor Posts 23360 |
02-13-18 04:12 PM - Post#247722
All I'm saying is that back to backs, generally speaking, are not a big deal. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-13-18 04:19 PM - Post#247723
With the previous back to back and then Princeton it was 5 in 12 days (not 5 in 8). 4 games at home and 1 at Princeton. Every Ivy weekend is 4 in 9 days. With this weekend's games, it became 7 in 16 days (usually 6 in 16) or 5 in 9 (usually 4 in 9) for Penn. None of this compares to most major conference tourney's. Didn't Syracuse win 4 or 5 games in as many days one year? Every game against a well rested opponent? Anyway, Harvard's defensive intensity tends to abate in the second half because the guards wear down without Bryce. That seems to have happened Saturday and I note that Harvard's 3 starting guards played 35, 37 and 39 minutes the night before. Wood and Betley started driving and hitting shots in the second half as well. Either they weren't tired, OR Harvard's guards were, OR, it was just the way it worked out. That's how Penn took a 16 point deficit down to the final margin of 9. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3584 |
02-13-18 04:33 PM - Post#247730
Friday Feb 2nd v Brown Sat Feb 3 v Yale Tues Feb 6 @P Friday Feb 9 @D Sat Feb 10 @ H Feb 2-Feb 10 = 8 days 2 at home, 3 on the road. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-13-18 04:37 PM - Post#247733
None of this compares to most major conference tourney's. Didn't Syracuse win 4 or 5 games in as many days one year? Every game against a well rested opponent? Entirely different scenario, of course, since those other teams earned the byes and extra rest. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
02-13-18 04:39 PM - Post#247734
i think if you count out the days (as I do on my hand, cus ANALYTICS!) you get 9 days. and more technically it's 8 days and 2 hours if you don't count Feb 2 until the 7p.m. tipoff. But there's no way to get to 11 days unless you use Harvard grade inflation. |
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mrjames Professor Posts 6062 |
02-13-18 04:41 PM - Post#247735
Yeah, it’s technically nine days because it’s an inclusive range not an exclusive range, which is why you get nine when you count it out versus normal subtraction which would treat it like an exclusive range. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-13-18 04:45 PM - Post#247736
My initial observation was through the Princeton game. I would think Feb 2nd counts as a day, but it doesn't really matter. Not worth it. If Penn thinks the scheduling puts it at a disadvantage then let it play Princeton 2x early like everyone else does. Finally, for all of these issues, I note that both of Harvard's point guards are out. Gotta think that has an impact as well, if for nothing else than it forces 3 guards + one freshman backup to play 120 minutes every game. Hoping Bryce is back for the tournament. Even if he can't revert to First Team Ivy League status, he can help his team by giving others much needed in game rest. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-13-18 04:48 PM - Post#247737
Only I could count wrong on my fingers. (But it is only 8 days minus 1 hour if you start at 7 pm on Friday, when the first game in the series started) |
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SteveDanley Sophomore Posts 102 |
02-13-18 05:40 PM - Post#247744
Asia's post is the reason I'm not interested in Steve's perspective (just this one time!). Humans/players whoever overestimate things like this all the time. You guys set me up! A couple of thoughts: In my experience, college practices are typically much more grinding than games. So it's rarely the actual play that is the killer in the 5 in 8 days situation, especially because coaches wind down the practices. The travel is really difficult -- especially that 7 1/2 hour bus trip to Dartmouth. I still have nightmares about every different position in the bus across seats. Large people, small bus. Not great. At any given point in the season, it wasn't uncommon for us to have 1/3 to 1/2 the team getting treatment for back tightness or other related issues. The sleep thing is hard too. If you're playing, games end at 9 and you haven't eaten. Then you get straight on the bus with some food. By the time you check into the new hotel, calm down, get more food, it's often 1 or 2. Coaches typically compound the problem through the belief that it's best for players to "get moving" early the next day, so you're up for mandatory breakfast, then shootaround, then an hour or two nap, then pre-game meal, then to the court to loosen up. It's a tough stretch. I find the 1 point research somewhat believable -- this several games in several days effect interacts with all kinds of other physical maintenance issues (I think travel is baked into home-away dynamic already, and that coaches regularly burn out their players legs in season anyway). Almost everyone I played with felt like the grind of the season took a fair bit off their athleticism -- so any effect is on the margin, and players play at 85% a lot anyway. The tougher thing for me was school -- once I started playing regular minutes, I essentially stopped being able to do school work on game days. I was just too fired up. That means you come back from a stretch like 5 in 8 days, and you want to sleep for a week, you've just logged god knows how many bus hours, and you're easily 500 pages and a paper or two behind in school. If you dropped a game towards the end of the stretch, it gets worse because the practices get harder and longer (Dunph's rule was no Tuesday practice when we were in 1st place in the league -- that day off was heaven). But otherwise, you sleep all day Sunday, then back to the grind Monday morning with a lift, classes, and a long practice. |
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SteveDanley Sophomore Posts 102 |
02-13-18 05:50 PM - Post#247745
Coaches typically compound the problem through the belief that it's best for players to "get moving" early the next day, so you're up for mandatory breakfast, then shootaround, then an hour or two nap, then pre-game meal, then to the court to loosen up. It's a tough stretch. You guys have me going down nostalgia row, so excuse me for a minute as I story tell. One of the funnier dynamics on these road trips is that at shootaround we, as starters, desperately tried not to break a sweat (under the perhaps superstitious belief that it's harder to get loose a second time during the day, so we avoided it at shoot around if possible). But guys who weren't playing a lot enjoyed the opportunity to get to be on the scout team and get a lot of shots / impress coaches. We had a lot of shootaround heroes -- guys out of the rotation that would torch starters at shoot around while starters went half speed. Then the coaches would get on the starters, the starters would get pissy and have to play harder, etc. Oh college road trips. |
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Charlie Fog Masters Student Posts 586 |
02-14-18 08:12 AM - Post#247795
do most college teams take busses, or is this an ancient eight thing/ rule? |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-14-18 10:54 AM - Post#247819
I would imagine that most DI teams fly when they can, unless the game is within 4-5 hours drive. I'm also guessing that the lowest level (and poorest) DI schools, such as the MEAC, probably drive to all of their games. |
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section110 Masters Student Posts 847 |
02-14-18 12:54 PM - Post#247836
Since the Ivy League universities cannot afford two sets of away uniforms, I'm sure air travel is beyond them. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-14-18 12:57 PM - Post#247838
I never knew that there were people bothered by the fact that home teams wear white the second night of a back to back. NBA teams switch uniforms all the time. Why is this a big deal? |
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section110 Masters Student Posts 847 |
02-14-18 01:42 PM - Post#247850
The point I was trying to make, with tongue firmly in cheek, is that a conference that has ambitions of moving up to be a two or multiple bid league,(at least that's what the people on this board want) still penny pincehes like minor conferences are forced to. Our league consists of 8 of the wealthiest universities in the world; but only has 1 and a half decent facilities. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-14-18 01:58 PM - Post#247853
OK, sorry for missing the joke. Fact is that others seem to be bothered by the 1-uniform rule. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4910 |
02-14-18 02:21 PM - Post#247857
Steve Danley's insight is facinating. I saw a short look-in video about Jay Wright's practices a year or two ago, and he seemed obsessed with protecting his players' legs. |
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SteveDanley Sophomore Posts 102 |
02-14-18 03:04 PM - Post#247861
do most college teams take busses, or is this an ancient eight thing/ rule? It's been a decade since I've been really involved in college hoops -- but I never thought there was an Ivy rule about flying, and we regularly flew for tournaments. We even flew to Dartmouth one year (though that's still a tough trip - I don't even remember what the airport was). My impression from talking to other mid-majors was that they did it similarly -- busses for close trips and most league opponents, flights for everything else. |
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W. PhD Student Posts 1171 |
02-14-18 03:28 PM - Post#247863
My impression from talking to other mid-majors was that they did it similarly -- busses for close trips and most league opponents, flights for everything else. And SEPTA for Temple. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32803 |
02-14-18 04:00 PM - Post#247866
When was the last time you saw that happen? |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-14-18 04:01 PM - Post#247867
Some of us even walk to Temple. |
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10Q Professor Posts 23360 |
02-14-18 04:37 PM - Post#247869
I walk to Shul, but not Temple. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
02-14-18 04:47 PM - Post#247870
There's a statistically significant correlation (p= .01) between the appearance of the word "poop" and some frivolity. Thanks for being the Game Script where a team trailing the whole game wins it in the final 30 seconds.
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DJ Jazzy Jeff Freshman Posts 58 |
02-14-18 05:40 PM - Post#247872
If you're referring to the stain on Max's shorts, that was the cyst on his tailbone rupturing (for the 2nd time) and not "poop". |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3770 |
02-14-18 06:43 PM - Post#247875
If you're referring to the stain on Max's shorts, that was the cyst on his tailbone rupturing (for the 2nd time) and not "poop". I absolutely, positively, did not need to know that. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3584 |
02-14-18 08:28 PM - Post#247879
Yea, i would have preferred to skip that information. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
02-14-18 09:45 PM - Post#247885
Since we’re being blunt, I remember the sequence and wondering why he was recoiling and looking like he’d been hit in the family jewels when the replay didn’t show that. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12530 |
02-14-18 10:57 PM - Post#247893
I can't imagine having to play and deal with Lewis through that. What's the prognosis? Will it keep recurring? |
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westphillywarrior Sophomore Posts 196 |
02-15-18 11:36 AM - Post#247916
Tough kid. Thank you Max for making the trip and playing through that. Get well soon. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8220 
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02-15-18 01:33 PM - Post#247927
Yeah, what he said. I think in many ways Max embodies the soul of this team and it's ability to play through adversity. |
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AsiaSunset Postdoc Posts 4358 |
02-15-18 02:54 PM - Post#247930
Wasn't sure what the problem was last weekend and thought Max probably had a virus, but it was clear something wasn't right. He had no lift and was getting outplayed by the other teams big. Chris Lewis is very good but he had a career day against us and Will Emery looked like a 1st team All Ivy big (which he's not) in the Dartmouth game. |
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