Username | Post: Yale |
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Eric Von Zipper Senior Posts 343 |
03-03-18 02:48 PM - Post#250438
Opens Eli -2 |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-03-18 02:53 PM - Post#250439
Hope the Tigers can stay in Dr. Jekyll mode for one more game. Would love to see Amir have a chance to keep playing. |
bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-03-18 03:14 PM - Post#250442
They are playing better than the seven game losing streak but I am not sure if they are playing good. Competition has not been very good in the last two games. Yale has a good offense and it will come down to Princeton's defense in all likelihood -- not sure if they can get it done plus Columbia may play competitively this evening. Hard to believe that the Tigers are not already in IvyMadness considering a down year for the league. 20 pt lead at Cornell with 8 minutes to go, Brown and Harvard game -- all kinds of opportunities but it is the Ivy League. Would be nice for Bell as you said as it would soften the blow. |
Eric Von Zipper Senior Posts 343 |
03-03-18 03:48 PM - Post#250450
I guess this is what the 4-team tournament is all about. Takes two games with no impact on the top spot and turns them into do or die. |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-03-18 03:50 PM - Post#250451
Followed by triumphant chants of "We're Number Four!" |
TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1888 |
03-03-18 04:08 PM - Post#250456
I’m having wicked fantasies of victorious rematches with H and P and the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments that would ensue. |
Eric Von Zipper Senior Posts 343 |
03-03-18 04:16 PM - Post#250458
There would be more than 1 jumper off the South Street bridge, for sure. |
HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
03-03-18 04:41 PM - Post#250462
League would be better if Brodeur, Guillen Smith, Mason, Bruner and Aiken were playing. Dartmouth would be in race for tournament and likely Yale would be winning league, chased by Harvard. Gap between top 3 and rest of league could be greater than it is though. |
bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-03-18 05:53 PM - Post#250475
True but even then there might not be any outstanding team other than possibly Yale with Mason and Bruner. Good but not great top end teams. |
HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2691 |
03-03-18 06:43 PM - Post#250478
Yes, Yale would be a big favorite in my estimation |
Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
03-03-18 08:06 PM - Post#250517
Thems the breaks. It is not as if no one stepped forward and played very well in their absence. Like Harvard, we saw that Yale is very deep. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 08:41 PM - Post#250538
Harvard's giving us a chance, but our guys don't seem to want it -- what else is new? Yale has absolutely nothing to gain by winning this and they're still playing harder and more focused than our guys. |
umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 |
03-03-18 09:31 PM - Post#250575
Make some free throws, let them know Harvard is up 23 with 5 min to go - this is there for the taking. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 09:34 PM - Post#250580
Our guys still don't care. No urgency. No toughness. Yale is playing harder in a meaningless game for them. They're just stepping on our throats for kicks. |
Eric Von Zipper Senior Posts 343 |
03-03-18 09:50 PM - Post#250608
They're still alive! |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 09:55 PM - Post#250609
Spoke too soon. They can't play hard for more than 2m at a time. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 10:06 PM - Post#250620
Pathetic end to a pathetic season. The team just didn't want to play hard for 40m a night. Or even 20m. They need to do some serious soul-searching over the summer. This season was a major embarrassment for the program. Congrats to Brian Earl. Wish we had a coach like him. The guy we have now just isn't cutting it. |
umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 |
03-03-18 10:06 PM - Post#250624
Emblematic. |
Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
03-03-18 10:10 PM - Post#250628
the idea that the kids didn't want to play hard is one of the most pathetic, asinine comments this board has ever run into. Ease up on those internet muscles, bro. |
Vonsid Sophomore Posts 145 |
03-03-18 10:14 PM - Post#250631
Ah yes Gokinsmen. When it's good, it's the best, when it's bad, it's the worst. He's our probably our worst fan on these boards. Should ship him off to the Penn boards. |
Vonsid Sophomore Posts 145 |
03-03-18 10:22 PM - Post#250634
So carrying on... Devin seemed to be in his own head most of the ivy league season. That def didn't help us. Was great to see Will play well finally. I am honestly saying that I am glad to see Alec go. I wish we saw more Richmond than Alec this year but we will next year that is for sure. Jerome really started to settle in and is going to be a beast. I hope everything is okay with Much. I do feel like he started to decline 5 or so games ago if not a few before that. He has so much talent though that he will be fine and our best player eventually. Lastly, Amir Bell. What a great career even when he had to come off the bench. I really feel bad for him and the way the rest of the team didn't step up. This will be good for us. It'll keep the coaches more honest, and the players will have a chip on their shoulder next year. |
LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
03-03-18 10:22 PM - Post#250635
Wow, what short memories you guys have. This time last year, you were singing their praises. You (and we Penn fans) underestimated the loss of Weisz and Cook. It should have been obvious there would be a step back. I'm plenty glad to see Princeton out of the tournament, but not out of spite towards its coach or players. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 10:32 PM - Post#250639
Oh please. I'm just saying what the players themselves say all the time. They lose focus. They lose confidence. They hesitate. They play scared. They give up. They go through the motions. Every basketball player talks about the effort not being there sometimes, often for an entire season. I always repeat this story, but Brian Earl himself spurred the team to a must-win victory over Penn back in 2011 by saying, "They just aren't playing hard enough." Kareem Maddox agreed and said he didn't realize he wasn't being aggressive as usual. Sometimes you just need a kick in the pants. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 10:33 PM - Post#250640
You gotta love Penn fans sweating out OT and then coming here to gloat. "You guys never had the talent anyways!" |
umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 |
03-03-18 10:37 PM - Post#250642
A step back sure, but 5-9 is inexcusable. Look how Cornell got to six wins. Swept by Harvard, Penn and Yale, split with Columbia and Princeton, swept Brown and Dartmouth. Princeton was swept by Harvard and Penn, and then split with everyone else. Did not take care of business. Can't lose to Brown at home, can't lose to Dartmouth. You are what your record says you are. I do think the key to next year is sorting out the minutes with the bigs. Gladson, Much, Desrosiers and Aririguzoh all have talent but someone will have to step forward. |
bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-03-18 10:37 PM - Post#250643
The result was not all that surprising as suggested prior to the game. Jones always has the Bulldogs play tough and hard and playing at Yale is always challenging. Tigers will be fine over the long run. Tough year with 4 OT IL losses -- just crazy. Cornell loss turned out to be the killer with 20 pt lead with 8 minutes to go. Mitch probably needs to make some adjustments going forward but he/Stephens and Cannady will come back with fire next year. Ironic that Penn and Harvard could have played a one game playoff at a neutral site but they may play at the Palestra in the final of IvyMadness. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 10:39 PM - Post#250645
Anyway, I blame our head coach for not motivating our players properly. That's a huge part of their job, especially at the college level where guys need a little more guidance. Mitch has 1 NCAA berth in 7 seasons and a stunning collapse in a year where 6-8 would have gotten us to the Ivy Tourney. Unless he can deliver next year, it's not crazy to consider other options. With the Ivy Tourney, we can risk a temporary dropoff in ways that we couldn't before. |
umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 |
03-03-18 10:41 PM - Post#250646
I would have thought strategically, Penn would want Princeton in the tourney, as they might have a better chance to take out the Crimson, but the Big Red have actually played better against Harvard. I think I'm rooting for the Quakers - it's the devil you know - can't have Harvard simply retake the title after one year break, and let's have a non-conference champ go to the tourney by winning on it's home court, so we don't do that again. |
penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
03-03-18 10:42 PM - Post#250648
Tigers will be fine over the long run. Tough year with 4 OT IL losses -- just crazy. Cornell loss turned out to be the killer with 20 pt lead with 8 minutes to go. And Harvard goes 3-0 in IL OT games, including the 2OT game last night. |
umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 |
03-03-18 10:49 PM - Post#250649
Hard to kill Coach Henderson after going 16-0 in the league - as mentioned before, would trade the huge break at the Palestra for all the stuff this year. I do think we thought we had a shot with Much and Desrosiers really coming on at the end of the non-conference schedule and injuries to Aiken and Mason. But I guess it was the defense, the physicality of the back to backs - I dunno. |
gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3666 |
03-03-18 11:14 PM - Post#250653
Going 9-5 is excusable. Going 5-9 is not. We all saw how well this team was playing, but at the first sign of adversity (the Brown loss), they fell apart. Considering how much talent is on the roster, that reflects poorly on the coaching. The erratic frontcourt rotations were especially concerning. Mitch never figured out what to do or whom he trusted and it looks like every big's confidence suffered for it. |
palestra38 Professor Posts 32809 |
03-03-18 11:37 PM - Post#250658
I think you guys wildly overestimated the remaining talent after losing 2 of the best players in the League and losing 2 big men who would have made a huge difference in the weak middle for the Tigers. Essentially, you had 3 guys ready to play in league play and that wasn't enough. That was foreseeable. But I agree that I am a bit unhappy that Princeton lost tonight--they would have given Harvard a tougher game than I think they will get from Cornell. |
penn nation Professor Posts 21193 |
03-03-18 11:40 PM - Post#250659
2 OTs isn't enough for you? |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-03-18 11:45 PM - Post#250661
Gokinsmen is wrong to blame MH, but there was definitely some weird mental stuff going on this season, where guys just played very differently from game to game and minute to minute. In tonight's game, the man-to-man defense, except for some exceptional work by Stephens, was pathetic, allowing Yale to go wherever they wanted on the floor, nobody close to the dribbler, slow rotations. The only time they looked good was in the zone possessions, especially the 1-3-1 trap. And offensively, it did seem like there was a mental block whenever they had a chance to take the lead, or, in OT, extend it to a two-possession lead Aririguzoh had his worst game, Gladson his best. The disappearance of Much is worrying; hope it's a health thing that can be worked out. Desrosiers looked decent. Stephens was terrific, Bell worked hard on both ends, Cannady scared the crap out of Yale with that late trey, but it wasn't enough. Too many missed layups and wide-open threes (a couple of which were unnecessarily hurried) for the team. Definitely there was underperformance this year, and I'm sure MH would say that some of that had to be his fault. But the idea of dumping him is insane. |
LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
03-04-18 12:44 AM - Post#250673
Ironic that Penn and Harvard could have played a one game playoff at a neutral site but they may play at the Palestra in the final of IvyMadness. As a Penn fan, I would have preferred a playoff at a neutral site over a four team tournament - even at the Palestra. By the way, the Harvard-Yale playoff there a couple years ago was one of the most intense, best played games I've ever seen. Often high stakes games turn out to be duds. |
SomeGuy Professor Posts 6412 |
03-04-18 12:45 AM - Post#250674
Absolutely— Princeton would have had a much better shot at Harvard. The positive for the league is that we get somebody different in the tournament, which I think is a good thing. But Harvard’s path to the final is much, much easier. Cornell will have a puncher’s chance with Morgan and Gettings capable of going off, but Princeton would have had much more of a chance. Says a lot about Yale that, with nothing to play for, they won both games this weekend. |
Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2814 |
03-04-18 01:39 AM - Post#250679
A real Tiger doesn't trash his team when it is down. We all had great expectations this season -- spoiled by last year's astonishing record. I think that many of us overlooked the critical importance of the three fine members of the rotation that graduated last June. Next year will bring an experienced nucleus supplemented by one extraordinary incoming guard. Now, let's get behind the Tiger women who clinched the outright championship tonight and who face a tough third meeting with Yale in order to face, presumably, Penn on its own court for the NCAA bid. GO TIGERS🅠|
PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3585 |
03-04-18 01:40 AM - Post#250680
Hmmmm. Harvard is playing the team that took them to 2 OT's at home (and beat by 3 up in Ithaca) and their path is easier? Ok. |
palestra38 Professor Posts 32809 |
03-04-18 08:53 AM - Post#250700
You may be right--we match up against Cornell better than Harvard because of our above average perimeter defense. Harvard does seem to have a weakness against teams that can fire it up. Hopefully, Cornell will do so because I think Penn would destroy them in an Ivy final at the Palestra. But could you imagine if Cornell is the Ivy rep in the NCAAs? Is there a play in for the play in? |
Eric Von Zipper Senior Posts 343 |
03-04-18 09:06 AM - Post#250702
I hear Dayton, Ohio is lovely this time of year. |
bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-04-18 09:45 AM - Post#250709
Tigers could have easily finished 8-6 with this year's crew with a bounce of a ball but it is still a far cry from last year's 16-0 which did get several good bounces of the ball -- fine line as to winning and losing. Mitch was the coach then and now. It was not his best season as to some end of the game decisions but it really does not matter if you do not believe in IvyMadness. Top competition last year was better than this year so there was a major differential between 2016 and 2017 squads. If you could not make IvyMadness this year, it says a lot about the team even with some bad bounces. Why? - there is really only 3 explanations - Weisz, Cook and Miller. The analytics guys could project that the freshmen guys and returning players could fill in most of the gap on offense but at the end of the day, what was missing was the toughness and experience of these three guys. Always watched them come out of the locker room at the beginning of the game and halftime and there was simply a difference this year from last. Does Stephens and Cannady become Weisz and Cook next year? The record of the team may provide some of the answers. |
SomeGuy Professor Posts 6412 |
03-04-18 10:28 AM - Post#250715
I suppose it depends on whether you think that is matchup based or not. Overall for the season, Princeton is close enough to Harvard that they would probably be favored if they were playing at home. Cornell, on the other hand, is over 100 places behind Harvard in Pomeroy (and one of the bottom 100 teams in the country). I do think Cornell has a puncher’s chance, like I said, but that is for high variance reasons. I suspect that we saw two high variance positive performances from Cornell against Harvard already, and they still lost both. |
SomeGuy Professor Posts 6412 |
03-04-18 10:43 AM - Post#250720
There may be something intangible that explains the difference. However, I thought the base 5 of Weisz, cook, Stephens, bell, and Cannady was such a difficult matchup because of its interchangeability. The group could defend bigs despite giving up size, and they basically always had at least two killer matchup advantages on the other end. And then they could throw in Miller with 4 of them to protect the middle. I think this year Henderson never figured out the right mix around the remaining 3 guys. The most experienced returnees, Brennan and Young, have obvious strengths, but also some limitations that didn’t seem to fit. The freshmen showed some flashes, but were up and down. Stephens is a very versatile player, but this year it felt like they were plugging holes with him rather than playing to an advantage. There was a lot of juggling of lineups, and maybe that was a problem in and of itself, but it also could indicate that the winning mix wasn’t there. Interesting similarities to ‘16-‘17 Penn. High Pomeroy OOC that would suggest a better Ivy season. Big in conference losing streak. Ended with losing record in conference despite easily having a top 4 Pomeroy (Princeton actually finished ahead of Yale in pomeroy). This suggests some bad luck may have been at play (also could be evidence of the intangibles issue). That similarity to Penn could provide some hope for getting it together next year. |
JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
03-04-18 11:35 AM - Post#250730
I agreed with your analysis re:2016 team until I looked at the stats. Miller was far less a factor last year than the year before. He certainly had his moments, I grant you. The key to last season was the half court team defense when Henderson went "small." Stephens, Cook, Weisz, Bell and Cannady made up the most effective quintet, especially in the second half of the Ivy season. This year's team turned out to be shockingly inadequate on defense. Jaelin Llewellyn will be very good but can't be much better than Bell at his best. Unless we can get somebody who can defend the Lewises, Brodeurs and Gettingses we will remain in the Ivy wilderness. It was not unusual for Henderson to use 5 or 6 DIFFERENT combinations in the first 10 minutes this season. I hope that can be worked out early next year. This team was picked third preseason and that's about where it SHOULD have finished. |
bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-04-18 12:26 PM - Post#250736
If one would rely solely on the stats, you are correct but as SRP has pointed out the turning point last season is when Miller stood up and declared that a line is being drawn in the sand as to playing intense defense for the remainder of the year and they did. By all accounts including Coach H, it changed the direction of the season. One of the reasons that I have issues with solely relying on stats but that is a whole different story. Coach under utilize Miller throughout most of his career particularly in his senior season. It hurt the Tigers in non-conference play but it was interesting that Miller was on the Court at the beginning and at the end of the ND game and he made a significant contribution. Coach should have played him more to help out Stephens on Bonzie Colson. You are right about next year although part of the solution is to stop playing Arirguzoh five minutes a game as he is their best interior defender by far. Also, one of this year's freshmen needs to step up on defensive front -- may be DesRosiers or Barnes as Tigers need to get more athletic on D. |
JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
03-04-18 12:43 PM - Post#250738
With respect I am not here to knock Pete Miller but to suggest that the season turned around because of something he said is just nonsense. Miller played about 1 minute at harvard,the biggest win (to that point) in the Henderson era. The season turned around when Henderson put Stephens in the starting lineup in December. He did that because Caruso decided to leave the team. The Ivy DPOY was not a starter two weeks before the Ivy season began. Miller played hard all the time but he had his limitations. And I believe that this year's team could have used him! |
1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274 |
03-04-18 01:42 PM - Post#250745
Jaelin Llewellyn will be very good but can't be much better than Bell at his best. I love Amir Bell--shoots the 3-ball, pull up J, and slashes to the hoop. But drive and dish he does not. I am hoping J-LLLL is a drive and dish guy, because with our 3 point shooters, he could make everyone better. |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-04-18 01:59 PM - Post#250747
I generally don't like counting on miracle freshmen to save the day. And even if Llewelyn looks like Ben Simmons on offense, we need Chris Paul on defense. And Amir was maybe the second-best defender on the team. IMO, the development or lack of same of Much, Desrosiers, Aririguzoh, and Gladson will have a lot to do with how the Tigers perform next season. Guarding without fouling, strength in the post, rotating to help properly, etc. And for the love of God, plan for and practice a variety of zones. Even Coach K has been pragmatic about that, and it's helped Duke a lot. |
1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274 |
03-04-18 02:16 PM - Post#250748
Agreed--I wasn't proposing J-4L to save the day. Just that there is an opening to be better than Bell over the arc of his career. As for next year, I'm hoping Gladson can show us what he can do free of injury. He could take a big step forward. Also Barnes may show some of his talent. |
JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
03-04-18 02:37 PM - Post#250753
We needed "miracle freshmen" to save the day this year and it did not work out. DeRosiers, the next Ian Hummer, turned out to be the best but none of them defended particularly well. Given the attributes of this team, and assuming Llewellyn can defend as well as Bell (a huge assumption) I agree that the time has come for some zones for more than two or three possessions. Is there someone on the staff who can teach zones? |
umbrellaman Masters Student Posts 476 |
03-04-18 06:08 PM - Post#250825
Much looked like he was making the leap right before conference play - anybody have a sense of what happened? Defensive woes? |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-06-18 09:17 PM - Post#251140
Wish I knew. He's a stud IMO. |
JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
03-06-18 09:29 PM - Post#251143
He has terrific instincts and can shoot very well, but is not very mobile. At the end he played the 5 but that will not be his role long term. Don't know why he did not leave the bench this weekend. This team has holes to fill an Bell"s leaving creates a bigger one. Gladson is a key factor if he can play 25 minutes and defend, both unknowns at this point. I don't see any bigs coming in this year |
westcoast Senior Posts 302 |
03-06-18 09:52 PM - Post#251154
Much, Bramlage, and Reynoso-Avila were injured and were not in uniform for the final weekend's games. |
JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
03-06-18 09:56 PM - Post#251155
Thanks. I did not know that |
1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2274 |
03-06-18 10:13 PM - Post#251157
DeRosiers, the next Ian Hummer By Stewart Suss' ratings, Hummer and DeRosier had almost identical freshman years in minutes and ranking. |
Eric Von Zipper Senior Posts 343 |
03-06-18 10:23 PM - Post#251161
Much has been bothered by a sore hamstring and hip flexor issues. He didn't practice all last week. |
JadwinGeorge Senior Posts 357 |
03-06-18 10:27 PM - Post#251164
The "next Ian Hummer" comparison is from Mitch Henderson preseason. I hope he's right. |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-07-18 01:39 PM - Post#251218
I think Much is plenty mobile offensively. He has a great jab-step and go move where he dribbles right past his defender. But, like many of our players, he lacks lateral quickness on D, compounded by inexperience in his positioning. The latter can be remedied. |
whitakk Masters Student Posts 523 |
03-07-18 02:10 PM - Post#251247
Llewellyn will be critical to Princeton's offense out of the gate. If he isn't good right away, Princeton's offense will be even more stagnant next year (Cannady had a 10% assist rate, Stephens 9%, nobody else above 15%). And Cannady doesn't usually bring the ball up against pressure so Llewellyn will probably get that role too. |
SRP Postdoc Posts 4911 |
03-07-18 03:22 PM - Post#251270
I was conflicted about this season's offense. The efficiency numbers were good most of the time, but the lack of assists and off-ball movement, and the untimely turnovers and bad possessions when opponents played more-intense defense, bugged me. If the whole offense doesn't rely less on early isos next year, assists won't go up even if they put Ricky Rubio in there. |
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