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Username Post: Attendance for Abomination Finally Revealed
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-21-18 10:27 PM - Post#254045    

5,419 for the semis, 5,564 for the finals:

Semifinal Attendance

Final Attendance

Last year it was 6,209 and 3,833, respectively:

Semifinals Attendance

Final Attendance

So grand totals are 10,983 this year, 10,042 this year, up less than 1,000 despite Penn being in both sessions this year, and with neither session drawing as well as the semis last year.

I got to the ticket office ten minutes before tipoff of the men's final and got a seat in the fourth row of the upper bowl in one of the two center sections, behind the benches.

In comparison, the Harvard-Yale playoff three years ago got 5,256, only about 300 less than this year's final despite much shorter prep time and no Penn or Princeton.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 08:22 AM - Post#254055    

Yes, but it looked pretty full on TV and had great sound and atmosphere for the TV show. BTW, don't you think the fact that any of the fans of Yale, Harvard and Cornell could watch it on ESPN2 depressed the live attendance?

BTW, the reason there was not a dropoff for the final was that Penn actually got student attendance with classes set to resume the next day. Almost none of them were there on Saturday.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
03-22-18 09:57 AM - Post#254069    

But it's always the case that other students will be able to watch instead of attend, so you are saying there will always be depressed attendance for schools not close to the site.

In fact I thought one of the arguments made for a tournament is that it increases likelihood of getting TV exposure, which suggests the attendance dynamic you identify will never change.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 10:34 AM - Post#254072    

Agreed. I don't think that, other than a potential Penn-Princeton matchup, the tournament will ever approach a sellout, unless the schools start busing students to the tournament, give them a place to stay and free beer.
Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts 4438
Cvonvorys
03-22-18 10:39 AM - Post#254074    

  • palestra38 Said:
The tournament will never approach a sellout, unless the schools start busing students to the tournament, give them a place to stay and free beer.



Students??? How about doing this for the alum?? Add vodka and bourbon and a sellout will be a sure thing!!

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 10:42 AM - Post#254076    

The alumni who care already were there. What's lacking is students, and of course, the tournament coincides with Spring Break, which is mandatory travel these days, it seems.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-22-18 12:23 PM - Post#254087    

despite penn being in both sessions... but Princeton, who clearly is good for about 1K fans, in neither.

Maybe if the players attend your kids' bday party you'll forgive their insolence for wanting a tournament?
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-22-18 12:24 PM - Post#254088    

btw - lame it took that long for the Ivies to release the attendance figures.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 12:29 PM - Post#254089    

Me? I haven't criticized the tournament, although I think we'd be better off without it. I enjoyed it. But the students don't care.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4466
03-22-18 12:34 PM - Post#254091    

nah i just didn't feel like quoting dp's post.

it was fun, people had fun. It wasn't "fair", and if penn isn't involved, which will be fair, it won't do great numbers at the Palestra. We know all this. still fun.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-22-18 12:40 PM - Post#254092    

ESPN played up the Penn student section in the telecast - you're saying it wasn't all that?

If attendance is being driven primary by Penn fans and secondarily by Princeton fans, which is how I'm reading the numbers for the past 2 years, then there's a good argument to rotate the venue.

My sense is that the tournament is here to stay.

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 12:57 PM - Post#254095    

Agreed that it was fun, but not really fair.

As for the attendance, there were Penn students at the final, but very few at the semis.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-22-18 01:20 PM - Post#254099    

  • TheLine Said:


If attendance is being driven primary by Penn fans and secondarily by Princeton fans, which is how I'm reading the numbers for the past 2 years, then there's a good argument to rotate the venue.




Harvard v. Yale drew pretty much the same numbers in 2015 for the playoff.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-22-18 01:21 PM - Post#254100    

  • TheLine Said:
.

My sense is that the tournament is here to stay.




Agreed.

The only "debate" is what changes (if any) to make to the format.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5597
03-22-18 01:28 PM - Post#254101    

The same numbers as this year's final?

As much as I like The Palestra as a venue, the attendance from the past 2 years are saying that a Penn v Princeton matchup will draw the best and that Penn vs. anybody is a better draw than if Penn isn't playing. That's compelling. The only question is how attendance changes if the venue is different - will fans of other schools attend in greater numbers if they don't have to travel as far?

rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
03-22-18 01:29 PM - Post#254102    

Interesting information on the men's attendance. While not close to a sellout, I would have thought that there were more than 5,500 for the Penn semifinal and final.

It does not appear that any attendance figures have been released for the 3 women's games.

With regards to non-students, the Penn (men and women) and Princeton women seemed to bring the largest groups with the Yale and Harvard groups lagging. Although, Jill Glessner on last week's Inside Ivy Hoops podcast felt that those two groups showed up in good numbers.

After 2 years of the tournament, the Penn and Princeton groups have been the largest. It will be interesting to see if they show up if/when the tournament is played in a more northern location. I would think that they would show up in good numbers if it is in, or near, NYC, but less sure if it was north of NYC.

In that same podcast, Columbia's AD Peter Pilling was interviewed. I believe he mentioned that he would like the tournament to be held in a 5,000 or so seat neutral site in, or around, NYC, but did not have a definite location in mind. If it was not in NYC, then he felt it should be at an neutral arena along the eastern seaboard.

With regards to the NYC area, the Carneseca Arena at St.John's (Queens) is the only NYC area venue of that size, but dperry exposed some problems with that location when commenting on the Penn-St. John's NIT threat last Monday.

Jill Glessner also mentioned having it in the Boston Area. I cannot remember if she mentioned Matthews Arena at Northeastern, but it is a 6,000 seat capacity with a bit of history.

http://gonu.com/sports/2010/1/28/matt hewsarena.asp...

Perhaps that will be considered as an alternative option to Bridgeport or Uncasville.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 01:34 PM - Post#254104    

Tournament tickets were for both men's and women's---there were no separate tickets for the women. So the figures you see are for all games.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-22-18 02:43 PM - Post#254126    

I believe Penn students returned from break the Sunday of the final game. Similarly, most other schools started break the Friday before the tournament. If attending a game on campus on Saturday didn't happen for Penn at home, it couldn't possibly happen for students of Harvard, Yale and Cornell who would not only be on break, but would have to travel and find/afford lodging.

Wonder how Penn and Princeton fans would travel if the tournament was in Boston. I know that Harvard games attract university employees and others who are locals. They don't travel.


palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 02:56 PM - Post#254127    

You'd get only Penn alums to go up to Boston. Students would not go.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-22-18 03:04 PM - Post#254130    

  • TheLine Said:
The same numbers as this year's final?





Pretty much--5,256

http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2014-15/b oxsc...

Here's some Happy Harvard fans:


http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2014-15/p hoto...

I would venture that finals involving any combination of HYPP would draw above 5,000 at the Palestra. Any finals involving a combination of BCCD would draw half that at the Palestra.

Anything else in terms of matchups and venue--I couldn't even guess.

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-22-18 03:05 PM - Post#254132    

Would anyone like to take a guess as to what the attendance would have been at the Palestra with a Cornell/Yale final in the men's and Harvard/Yale final for the women. Then consider if Penn was not in the tournament for the men or women. Robin and her merrymen would have to hire young people off the streets or set up cardboard spectators.

Will it be any different dependent on the mix of teams if the tournament is held in NYC or Boston. Probably, NYC location would have the broadest appeal but who knows if IvyMadness can sell out.

It was a bit of propaganda that the Il Tournamment was going to greatly enhance the "brand".
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-22-18 03:13 PM - Post#254133    

Interesting observation.

Could lead to a conclusion that the location needs to match the participants. Either a central/neutral location or higher seeds host Friday semifinal and maybe even Championship.

Harvard/Yale playoff proves that participants and location can be determined the previous weekend and still be well attended. As for championship, we don't know who will be playing until Saturday's games conclude and school allotment of tickets had to be purchased all over again (for 200 section) and/or reallocated for 100 section.

Women's tournament would have to held separately (Thursday - Saturday?)






HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-22-18 03:24 PM - Post#254136    

Remove Penn and you're likely to draw 3,000 at the Palestra for the final. Remove Princeton as well and you could be down to 2,500. I think the Harvard-Yale playoff was an anomaly due to the rivalry, the competitiveness of the two teams, and Yale's historical failure to get to the tournament. I had no trouble getting tix for the Harvard vs Princeton playoff at Yale (2,800 capacity).

Unless you allow Penn to play in the tournament on its home Court, you can hold it in a much smaller arena.


Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-22-18 03:55 PM - Post#254140    

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
Remove Penn and you're likely to draw 3,000 at the Palestra for the final. Remove Princeton as well and you could be down to 2,500. I think the Harvard-Yale playoff was an anomaly due to the rivalry, the competitiveness of the two teams, and Yale's historical failure to get to the tournament. I had no trouble getting tix for the Harvard vs Princeton playoff at Yale (2,800 capacity).




Maybe you're right. But the reality is that the 2015 H-Y game did, in fact, draw just fine.

My own gut is that H-Y would draw comparably if they reached the tournament game in Ivy Madness. A Harvard v. Yale game seems to be more of a social event than any other matchup in the league.

And before I hear protests from the Ps, how well would a Penn-Princeton game draw in Boston?

Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-22-18 03:59 PM - Post#254141    

Yes, I think it is "here to stay" but not "there to stay".
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 04:00 PM - Post#254142    

Better than a Harvard-Dartmouth game in Boston. But again, only alums would come.

Unless they give students incentives to attend and schedule it a week earlier before Break, there will be no students in any number at the Ivy tournament
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-22-18 04:54 PM - Post#254150    

The Penn - Harvard final was well attended by Penn students returning from break to their campus. The Harvard - Yale tie-breaker seems to have been attended by students as well. I know Harvard students were in attendance at Yale for the Harvard-Princeton game.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-22-18 05:02 PM - Post#254151    

  • palestra38 Said:
Better than a Harvard-Dartmouth game in Boston. But again, only alums would come.





And your basis for this assertion is...?

HARVARDGRADAD suggested that the novelty was the reason why Yale went down to Philly in 2015. Yet, Dartmouth wouldn't trek down to Boston?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-22-18 05:05 PM - Post#254152    

There were a lot of Penn fans at the Yale-Harvard game, including everyone from my season ticket group
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-22-18 05:19 PM - Post#254154    

I do not believe that there would be a marked difference in attendance if the event was held in Boston or Philadelphia. NYC probably gets a slightly better draw but you are correct that current day Ivy League students just do not show up for these events and only, if their school is participating. As to adults, some alumni will show up and location is factor.

How does the IL get fans to attend IvyMadness? A couple of possibilities including a team, like possibly Harvard, be a nationally ranked team with one or two great players. Penn upsetting Kansas followed by a win against Seton Hall, a great talent joins the IL like Jaelin Llewellyn next year, etc. It is not going to happen unless there is a significant improvement in performance by teams but more importantly, a special team or player. Can one imagine the excitement of a Penn vs. UMBC upset win? Is it going to happen -- time will tell but IvyMadness is just a dance around the real issues.

I, like the vast vast majority of basketball fans in this country have little to no interest in IvyMadness, albeit for different reasons.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-22-18 07:23 PM - Post#254166    

Keggies have usually enjoyed any reason to go to Boston.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-22-18 08:05 PM - Post#254167    

FWIW, no-one is at a friggin' NCAA Sweet Sixteen matchup in Atlanta between Loyola and Nevada.
dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-22-18 08:09 PM - Post#254168    

  • palestra38 Said:
Yes, but it looked pretty full on TV and had great sound and atmosphere for the TV show. BTW, don't you think the fact that any of the fans of Yale, Harvard and Cornell could watch it on ESPN2 depressed the live attendance?




I haven't been able to find the exact ratings anywhere (any suggestions would be greatly appreciated), but I can tell you it didn't make the cut for this list, in which the lowest-rated college game got 0.35. Also, while individual years might fluctuate due to teams qualifying, weather, etc., if we don't see a positive correlation between TV ratings and attendance, this thing ain't working.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-22-18 08:11 PM - Post#254169    

  • Jeff2sf Said:

Maybe if the players attend your kids' bday party you'll forgive their insolence for wanting a tournament?



I guess they got the insolence from you. Mad, bro?
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-22-18 08:14 PM - Post#254170    

  • Go Green Said:
  • TheLine Said:
.

My sense is that the tournament is here to stay.




Agreed.

The only "debate" is what changes (if any) to make to the format.



There have been many things over the years that were "here to stay" without any particularly good reason. I'd name some of them, but if I get too hyperbolic, Jeff will get kwanky-wanky again.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-22-18 08:33 PM - Post#254172    

  • rbg Said:
Interesting information on the men's attendance. While not close to a sellout, I would have thought that there were more than 5,500 for the Penn semifinal and final.



For the final, the lower bowl on the sideline across from the benches was at best about a third full. The Harvard student section was mostly empty. Only one of the corners was really full. There were quite a few empty seats in the section I was in, which is one of the best seats in the house.

While the ticketing scheme was better this year, it was still not well done; for instance, it's pretty obvious that there's not nearly as much demand for VIP packages as they think there is.

  • Quote:
It does not appear that any attendance figures have been released for the 3 women's games.



Given that the Princeton fans showed up more forcefully than last year, I'd guess the women's attendance was a bit higher this year, probably in the 800-1,000 range, which would be a very good attendance for a regular season Penn game.

  • Quote:
Jill Glessner also mentioned having it in the Boston Area. I cannot remember if she mentioned Matthews Arena at Northeastern, but it is a 6,000 seat capacity with a bit of history.



To be precise, it's to Boston hockey what the Palestra is to Philly basketball; it's the oldest indoor rink in the world, and all four of the Beanpot programs got started there. Judging from the pics, the sightlines wouldn't be too bad for basketball.

David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

dperry
Postdoc
Posts 2211
dperry
03-22-18 08:36 PM - Post#254173    

  • palestra38 Said:
Tournament tickets were for both men's and women's---there were no separate tickets for the women. So the figures you see are for all games.



Actually, there were separate packages sold for the women's games this year (this was one of the reasons why the games were shifted around), although it is true that men's tickets were good for them as well, and I'm sure quite a few people went to both. I've had several Howard Gensler sightings lately, by the way, and Paul Chrystie was at the final, too.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"

Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts 1439
03-22-18 08:54 PM - Post#254175    

It is my understanding that the separate ticket package for the women's games was the result of the game times being switched around, not the cause of the switch.

In 2017, there was a single admission quadrupleheader. The women's games were sandwiched around the two men's games which tipped off at 1:30 and 4:00 pm. This year, at the request of ESPN, the men's games tipped off at 12:30 and 3:00 pm. The women did not want a game at 10:00 am. So we had the separate men's and women's sessions.

bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-22-18 08:56 PM - Post#254176    

If Harvard or someone has a run like Loyola or Nevada this year, the carryover for the Il would be amazing regardless of IvyMadness. Very tough to do but Harvard may have a run left in them. Want to get some publicity or "branding", go win some games at the Big Dance.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-22-18 09:20 PM - Post#254177    

Incredibly gutsy win by Loyola -- remarkable. Difference for the very good mid major teams than the Ivy League is that simply play with greater tempo, extraordinary defensive effort and motors that simply do not quit. At some point and time, coaches in the IL may need to make some adjustments to the perimeter passing game and slower tempo.

After watching the game, I remain perplexed as to why IL supporters in a one bid league do not want to send their best team to fight the good fight at the Big Dance but it is what it is.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-22-18 09:27 PM - Post#254178    

They also shoot the ball extremely well and consistently find ways to make acrobatic layups against taller opponents.

Ivy teams don't have that combination.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-22-18 09:36 PM - Post#254179    

Sister Jean is trending on Twitter.


I think the end of the road is near, however, unless K State upsets Kentucky. Kentucky can't shoot, but they have way, way too much size and athleticism for Loyola.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-22-18 09:41 PM - Post#254180    

Closet team to having Loyola's athletic ability is probability Aiken, Towns and Lewis but Amaker does have his own style of play that seems different than Loyola and certainly Nevada. I am sure that it is a possible to win with his style but could be challenging after watching the really good mid major teams -- they just play so intense.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-22-18 10:07 PM - Post#254183    

Harvard played like that when it had the athleticism of Chambers, Curry, Casey and Zena - 2013-14. Must have depth and PG's to run all game. Harvard has been short on PG's since then, except for possibly last year with Siyani and Bryce. Siyani was returning from knee injury and Bryce was a bit out of control so I think Tommy wanted to slow them down.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
03-22-18 10:13 PM - Post#254184    

Have any other mid-major runs resulted in conferences being lifted up? I know sometimes the team flees, but improving conferences? Did Cornell's run really help anyone else?
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-22-18 10:18 PM - Post#254186    

I agree that they played different than the past two years but the 2012-2014 Crimson teams did not play with the intensity of Loyola and Nevada as they have exhibited in the last three games. The 2012-14 Harvard group was very good but these guys play at a different level. I am not sure how Donahue did it at Cornell.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
03-22-18 10:22 PM - Post#254187    

Yes, Amaker prefers to play a different style. I don't believe you will see an Ivy with such athleticism and depth to play with this intensity. Nevertheless, the more conservative approach can beat teams that need to play at this faster pace. That's how Harvard beat New Mexico and Cincinnati and almost beat UNC. Can't beat some teams at their own game so make them play yours.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-22-18 10:25 PM - Post#254188    

Donahue had a very good shooting team and a lights out shooter (Wittman) as good as, if not better than, anyone on Nevada or Loyola.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
03-23-18 06:13 AM - Post#254191    

  • bradley Said:

After watching the game, I remain perplexed as to why IL supporters in a one bid league do not want to send their best team to fight the good fight at the Big Dance but it is what it is.



Florida Gulf Coast says hi.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-23-18 08:03 AM - Post#254194    

Kansas State beat Kentucky.

Sister Jean in the Final Four?
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-23-18 08:35 AM - Post#254198    

At least they have a shot.

Kentucky would have been a horrible matchup. K state had 3 guys foul out and nearly 2 others. Against Loyola it would have been worse than that. Loyola doesn’t have a ton of weaknesses but lack of size is definitely one.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
03-23-18 01:13 PM - Post#254212    

Loyola hit more reverse layups against Nevada than I've ever seen in a game.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
03-23-18 01:19 PM - Post#254213    

It did indeed seem as if Nevada never before saw a driving player go to the other side of the basket.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-23-18 02:03 PM - Post#254216    

I've seen a number of their games this year and it was not an aberration.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-24-18 08:34 AM - Post#254250    

You are correct that it is a very tough combination to have but their athleticism is impressive for a 11 seed as it gives them a chance to compete, especially on defense. It will be very tough to get to the semis and their time in the spotlight will dim but their performance will certainly help their programs for the upcoming years.

Somehow, an Ivy League team needs to find a magical year but you need the players, coach and a style of play to win. Even Loyola is a #11 seed and not a #13-16 seed which is basically a death knell with the rarest of circumstances.

An Ivy team could have the advantage of having a junior/senior laden team that can shoot but do they have the athleticism and relentlessness to reach a final 8 or even 16. Right now, probably not but it is possible. Needless to say, IvyMadness has nothing to do with it.

There is also hope and it would be a great story to cover by the national media and a very good thing for the league.
JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts 357
03-24-18 05:29 PM - Post#254255    

If your goal is to compete in the NCAA tournament you should not hitch your wagon to an Ivy League team. "TWO BID" will happen if the best team loses our tourney, if then. Reaching the tournament is a nice reward for a good season. As long as money runs the show the Ivy league is just another afterthought.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-24-18 09:37 PM - Post#254260    

On the Loyola broadcast, color guy mentioned that Pete Carril would be smiling after a backdoor cut. Princeton offense gets a lot of play still even though the Tigers did not use it much this year. Hopefully, Jaelin was listening.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
03-24-18 10:09 PM - Post#254262    

I saw more backdoor cuts from the Quakers this year than from Princeton.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
03-25-18 09:48 AM - Post#254271    

We can all identify a singular event to support a position, i.e. Loyola. Loyola was clearly the best team in the Missouri Valley Conference this year but they almost got knocked off in the 1st round of the MVC championship by the 9th seed in their opening game, 54-50.

Rather than citing singular events which will be dominated by the Loyola vs. Florida Gulf examples of the world, logic/statistics clearly supports the advantage of sending your best team year on a yearly basis. The second ranked team in the MVC, Southern Illinois, was good but certainly not Loyola based on rpi, statistical rankings.

It almost seems like IvyMadness is a quick fix for a number of schools in the IL as getting to the big dance rather than doing what Cornell and Penn have done in hiring a good coach, Donahue, and find recruits/players that fit into your system.
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
03-25-18 01:50 PM - Post#254282    

So, Vermont should have gone, instead of UMBC.
mbaprof
Senior
Posts 342
03-28-18 07:43 PM - Post#254496    

Add 1500 if Princeton was playing, so would have been pretty full.
Sunday Noon game is tough, I know quite a few folks who had a great time Sat and watched finals on TV.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
04-02-18 01:24 PM - Post#254657    

I've been provided with some player feedback on the Tournament.

The players asked, who had participated this year and/or last year, expressed hope that the tournament not be held at the Palestra going forward. Reasoning they provided was that the tournament games were decidedly a home game for Penn.

From other discussions, some think holding game in Providence (Dunkin Donuts; Alumni Hall; Pizzitola Center) should be considered as an option.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-02-18 01:43 PM - Post#254660    

The Dunk with 4000 people in it would be one depressing place. They need to find a location half that size and in all probability, in the NY Metro area. And it has to somehow emphasize the Ivy brand.

Everyone understands that the Palestra is a home court advantage for Penn. But by advocating the Dunk or something similar, you are ignoring the stated reason for the tournament, which is to provide the Ivies with a showcase.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
04-02-18 03:42 PM - Post#254665    

I was just conveying a suggestion made by others.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
04-02-18 07:45 PM - Post#254673    

how many others?
westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts 196
04-02-18 09:36 PM - Post#254678    

Time to give it up.

It would be insane for the league, with so much at stake, to continue playing this thing on anyone's unearned home court.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
04-02-18 11:06 PM - Post#254679    

The only hope for Quaker fans that the tounnament to stay at the Palestr is the incompetent Robin Harris but that is even going to happen. I agree that it is time to give up the ghost that the Tournament is going to stay at the Palestra. A lot of confusion as to the management of IvyMadness but not the least bit surprising.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
04-03-18 12:32 AM - Post#254682    

While I think the ILT has a good chance of moving for next year, I don't think it's anywhere close to a done deal. I put it at 50/50 today. There are a lot of reasons to go and a lot of reasons to stay. It will be a healthy debate in May at the IL meetings.
Quakers03
Professor
Posts 12480
04-03-18 12:53 AM - Post#254688    

If Penn hadn't been completely jobbed in New Haven and rightfully earned the 1 seed, would it have been more likely to stay?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-03-18 08:09 AM - Post#254689    

Again, the whole seeding process is ridiculous. Why should losing to a tougher team (leaving aside the manner in which Penn lost at Yale) put you below losing to a lesser team? Just is illogical. Of course, the old system (playoff at neutral site) still could be used to determine seeding, if that were determinative as to the location of the tournament.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
04-03-18 08:24 AM - Post#254692    

To be fair, the entire NCAA selection process is centered around valuing good wins over bad losses. So, it actually seems pretty consistent to make the tiebreak value better wins over worse losses.
Go Green
PhD Student
Posts 1124
04-03-18 09:00 AM - Post#254697    

  • westphillywarrior Said:


It would be insane for the league, with so much at stake, to continue playing this thing on anyone's unearned home court.



Fine. Go have it at a high school in the middle of the league's footprint and forbid fans from attending.

That would be as even a playing field as it gets. I mean "fairness" is the most important thing, right?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-03-18 09:35 AM - Post#254705    

It's a pretty stupid tiebreak in either event. Should we judge it on Penn losing by 1 with some really bad calls or Harvard getting beaten solidly by Columbia?

The real issue, though is where the tournament should be played, and that will have nothing to do with which team is first seed. It's either in the Palestra, Jadwin or a neutral site. I still have not heard of a neutral site that really fits the bill--7000-10000 seats, relatively equidistant and not too expensive for the league.
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
04-03-18 10:35 AM - Post#254709    

We've beaten the idea of alternative sites to death ever since the idea of the ILT surfaced. The fact is there is no good answer. Personally, I'd prefer the idea of an on-campus non-urban venue like Rutgers or UConn, but I doubt those schools would agree to it without prohibitive compensation. Places like the Dunk and Webster would be pretty gloomy, why would anyone go unless their team was in it?- I suspect one year there and everyone would want to go back to the Palestra. Mohegan Sun might make sense as a destination but it would take some creative dealing to make that work.

Maybe we acknowledge this is really a TV show and ignore capacity. They could charge more for tickets and open up more possibilities. Of course, students would be crowded out, but we all know they don't care anyway.
mrjames
Professor
Posts 6062
04-03-18 11:03 AM - Post#254712    

I’d be careful with that argument - Harvard bested Penn pretty handily in game script (average lead) in Ivy play.

The tiebreaker is obviously going to be tough when two teams are so even. I mean, if you finish dead even in record and basically equal in efficiency margin... gonna be hard to point to much of true substance to break that tie.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-03-18 11:10 AM - Post#254714    

Yes, and Harvard had 3 OT games--Penn 1. The likelihood of its losing another game was higher than Penn's despite game script. But the point is that we might as well flip a coin if all that is involved is the seeding. What has happened is that certain Harvard fans are complaining about the location of the tournament on the basis that it was "first seed." Of course, in the first 60 years of Ivy play, two teams that tie are both first place. There's an argument to be made that the tournament should not be held in an Ivy arena, but the fact that Harvard was first seed ain't one of them.
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
04-03-18 11:14 AM - Post#254716    

If it's a TV event, but you want to keep the 4 team format, let the home team host the respective game(s). The NIT does it. All games will be sold out - except for games hosted by Penn and Princeton. The only fans that care and who would attend are those of teams participating, so there won't be much of a ticket shortage. It will look great on TV with intensity befitting the home (higher seeded) team.

By the way, notice how students at the NCAA championship are made to stand in a corner for the entire game? That area seats 60,000+ and they don't have room for students!
Streamers
Professor
Posts 8141
Streamers
04-03-18 11:26 AM - Post#254718    

If I understand you correctly, the men's and women's first round games could end up at 4 different sites and there might be travel between rounds - How do you pack that into a weekend?


Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts 3988
04-03-18 11:30 AM - Post#254719    

Why do you have to "pack them into a weekend"?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-03-18 11:37 AM - Post#254720    

Princeton's exam schedule
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts 2685
04-03-18 11:26 PM - Post#254752    

Friday and Sunday and/or Thursday and Saturday
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
04-04-18 12:02 AM - Post#254754    

I like a 6 team tourney with the top 2 seeds getting a bye while the bottom 4 play at higher seeds on Thursday. Then do the 4 team ILT at a neutral site.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
04-04-18 12:26 PM - Post#254771    

Unless Penn was going to remain a non-relevant team, the Palestra site was going to become an issue. It really was not all that difficult to foresee this site as an issue. Did anyone ever think thru the potential issues during the thought process - I doubt it. If there are no other good solutions,was that considered in the decision making process - probably not. Sometimes, you wind up with a problem because you did not think — welcome to IvyMadness.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
04-04-18 06:47 PM - Post#254802    

I seriously doubt the implications of using Penn’s home gym weren’t considered. I just think the pro’s strong outweigh(ed) the cons. There is nothing secret about what we are seeing now.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
04-04-18 08:29 PM - Post#254805    

So using your logic, IvyMadness will remain at the Palestra because Robin and crew thought thru the possibilities back when. It will be interesting to hear your analysis if they move the tournament to another location if they thought thru the issues. Let's see.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3578
04-06-18 10:51 PM - Post#254890    

I don’t know if it will remain at the Cathedral or not. I suspect the chances are better than most are thinking that it returns. The reality is there were few unknown variables when the decision was originally made. Most of those variables haven’t tipped the scale for or against using the Palestra so the decision this year is similar in many respects. The big variable that will affect the decision making is Penn’s relevance as a basketball program. If the Quakers hadn’t made the tourney either year the venue wouldn’t be up for review. With Penn’s emergence the conversation changes. But there are many more uncertainties away from the Palestra at this point and that’s where the debate begins in May in my view.


sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
04-09-18 12:28 PM - Post#254961    

  • palestra38 Said:
Princeton's exam schedule



Not that I approve the quest for standardization in all things, but that may not always be the case:

Change Exam Schedule?

palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-09-18 12:48 PM - Post#254963    

The key point, which has ALWAYS been the case, is:

"The surveys found that students want to move finals before winter break to reduce stress. Eighty-one percent of undergraduates said that scheduling finals in January made them feel stressed over winter break, and 79 percent said it made them spend less time with family and friends over the break."

That's the reason every other school has moved finals to prior to vacation. Students absolutely hate the Princeton exam schedule, and it's remarkable how Princeton has held onto that schedule even though the Princeton undergraduate student experience is otherwise so positive. The old refrain that "We had to do it and ended up OK" is ridiculous.

And what's worse, it screws up the Ivy basketball schedule by requiring it to go 2 weeks longer than most other smaller mid major conferences. We actually could do a tournament that requires arrangement based on location of the schools playing if we had those two weeks. Well, I hope the change happens.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
04-09-18 03:16 PM - Post#254971    

  • palestra38 Said:
The key point, which has ALWAYS been the case, is:

"The surveys found that students want to move finals before winter break to reduce stress. Eighty-one percent of undergraduates said that scheduling finals in January made them feel stressed over winter break, and 79 percent said it made them spend less time with family and friends over the break."


Not my experience. I liked knowing there was a reading period after the holiday. My impression of friends elsewhere was that having exams before the holiday tended to create heavier stress over Thanksgiving break and left people drained when the holiday break rolled around. (BTW, the single wing was fun, too).

But the new generation ....
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-09-18 03:24 PM - Post#254973    

The "veer" was a lot of fun too. Beep Beep (Belizeare).

But seriously, there never was enough time during Thanksgiving to forget everything. You go away during Christmas break of 2-3 weeks and then pick it up without staying on top of it, ugh.
bradley
PhD Student
Posts 1842
04-09-18 08:09 PM - Post#254986    

Just not going to happen that Princeton will change their exam schedule to accommodate IvyMadness so that a 4th place team has the opportunity to go to the Big Dance and represent the IL. Some of this stuff is great to read.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
04-09-18 08:15 PM - Post#254987    

Alas poor Dartmouth.
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
04-09-18 08:57 PM - Post#254990    

  • sparman Said:
Alas poor Dartmouth.



I knew him well, Sparman.
rbg
Postdoc
Posts 3044
04-11-18 08:31 AM - Post#255066    

Do people think that the new deal with ESPN will give the network more say in where the conference tournament will be held? If so, will that increase the chances that it continue to be held at the Palestra?
westcoast
Senior
Posts 302
04-23-18 06:56 PM - Post#255683    

Looks like the Princeton faculty has approved the calendar change, moving first semester exams to December, starting in Fall 2020.

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2018/04/23/facul ty-...


SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
04-23-18 08:19 PM - Post#255688    

And the iron cage of institutional isomorphism scores a win. It's a shame, because reading period was pretty great.
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts 3765
04-23-18 09:02 PM - Post#255691    

If you listen carefully, you can hear the sound of flying pigs having a snowball fight in hell.
SRP
Postdoc
Posts 4894
04-23-18 09:36 PM - Post#255695    

"The surveys found that students want to move finals before winter break to reduce stress. Eighty-one percent of undergraduates said that scheduling finals in January made them feel stressed over winter break, and 79 percent said it made them spend less time with family and friends over the break."

They say that like it's a bad thing.

https://paw.princeton.edu/article/change-calend ar
penn nation
Professor
Posts 21081
04-23-18 11:36 PM - Post#255703    

Does this raise the possibility of Penn and Princeton now being able to play two games against each other in close proximity, like the other travel partners do?
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-24-18 08:39 AM - Post#255715    

This is an absolute game changer---it allows the Ivy season to incorporate January and allows for an earlier tournament, which permits both an early higher seed home game or a neutral site tournament which doesn't go up against the majors. It should help seeding a bit since the NCAA doesn't have to pre-slot the Ivy team (I know they denied it but there is no way that Penn would have been a 16 unless pre-slotted there). It also won't go up against Ivy Spring Breaks anymore if moved up a week.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
04-24-18 08:58 AM - Post#255720    

I don't care what they vote, I'm not giving up my raccoon coat.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 32680
04-24-18 09:01 AM - Post#255725    

Well, when you're the Most Interesting Man in the World, you can wear whatever you want.
sparman
PhD Student
Posts 1339
sparman
04-24-18 09:03 AM - Post#255727    

Or not.



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