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Streamers Professor Posts 8340 
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01-19-19 05:43 PM - Post#273061
Who’s in the house? |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-19-19 05:47 PM - Post#273064
Tyler is not dressed. But no boot. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215 
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01-19-19 06:33 PM - Post#273077
This is a lot better so far. Taking and making 3's so far.
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 06:35 PM - Post#273078
OK, who had book on a 7-0 run by the lineup of Woods, Simmons, Kuba, Dev, and Ray Jerome? |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-19-19 06:40 PM - Post#273080
Now we see Max for a cameo. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 06:46 PM - Post#273082
It’s the Kuba Show! |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 06:48 PM - Post#273083
Kuba killin' it.
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 06:55 PM - Post#273085
Wang, meanwhile, still looks limited. His outside shot looks more like a set shot than his normal jumper, and he was short on all of them. |
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73Quaker Freshman Posts 61 |
01-19-19 06:56 PM - Post#273086
Kuba is doing his best Sam Jones imitation vs Dayton |
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frank Junior Posts 211 |
01-19-19 06:59 PM - Post#273088
Final: Yale over Brown by 3, Brown had a shot at the end that wasn't close. Both Cambridge and Oni were 1-8 from beyond. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:06 PM - Post#273092
Wang, meanwhile, still looks limited. His outside shot looks more like a set shot than his normal jumper, and he was short on all of them. Yeah, he's definitely getting down the court slowly.
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:23 PM - Post#273095
Woo-hoo! Broder went to his left!
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 07:24 PM - Post#273096
We’re playing well for the first time in forever, but Temple’s D has been awful. No rotations at all. That waltz down the lane by A.J. just now was embarrassing. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:31 PM - Post#273097
Uh-oh, Owls at six fouls already. They've got us right where they want us. 
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 07:35 PM - Post#273099
Kuba attempting to dribble through a double team, not so good. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:37 PM - Post#273100
Nice sequence there, Brodeur with good defense and then Washington following up the ball for the floater.
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 07:41 PM - Post#273101
Want finally gets one to go. Huge shot. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 07:45 PM - Post#273102
Just awful, awful mental breakdown by Goodman and Woods. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:51 PM - Post#273103
Dagger by Silpe!
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-19-19 07:52 PM - Post#273104
Final: Yale over Brown by 3, Brown had a shot at the end that wasn't close. Both Cambridge and Oni were 1-8 from beyond. Brown was favored |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:52 PM - Post#273105
Hey, made free throws!
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penn nation Professor Posts 21310 |
01-19-19 07:52 PM - Post#273106
Have we ever clinched a Big 5 tie while being winless in IL play? |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 07:52 PM - Post#273107
Yup, another huge shot. A little sloppy with the ball in these final seconds, but great hustle by Washington and Silpe helps seal it. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 07:55 PM - Post#273109
Big 5 Champs! Now let’s go get the outright. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 07:59 PM - Post#273110
With the rain and them not playing well, I didn't feel like going, so of course they win to spite me. I take full credit for this one. 
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 08:05 PM - Post#273111
Steve shakes things up, goes 10 deep, and the result is 29 bench points. The week of practice was clearly productive. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4921 |
01-19-19 08:48 PM - Post#273114
Congratulations. When was the last time Penn had a piece or better of the Big 5? |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21310 |
01-19-19 08:49 PM - Post#273115
17 years ago. And that was outright. Temple last won one outright in 96. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32906 |
01-19-19 08:59 PM - Post#273118
Really tremendous win tonight---few Penn fans so it was a potentially very hostile environment, but Penn took the crowd out early and other than one or two occasions where Temple cut it to 6, Penn simply made the shots when it had to. Great great ball movement--21 assists. In comparison, Temple took stupid shot after stupid shot. It's the old story of Penn getting no respect. The Temple players thought they could come out and overwhelm us. Thus, they consistently overplayed on defense trying to steal the ball and eventually left a man open. On the other end, Temple players thought they could simply beat the defenders and ended up taking tough shots that missed. Great production from our deep bench. Particular kudos to Silpe, who seemed to hit killer shots when Penn was in trouble, Goodman, who had his best game since the skid began and Brodeur, who showed he has offensive moves that cannot be stopped. Great great win. Now if we only make the Ivy playoff, this can still be a great year. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-19-19 09:03 PM - Post#273121
17 years ago. And that was outright. Temple last won one outright in 96. Not true; the Owls had perfect records in '58, '87, '88, and '10 (and for that matter, were the only 2-0 team twice during the unfortunate '90's.) Big 5 at Wikipedia
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-19-19 09:05 PM - Post#273122
They were talking on the broadcast about the Goodman-Alston rivalry dating back to the Inter-Ac, where Dev’s Germantown team had the upper hand on Alston’s Haverford. Apparently that’s all he needed to raise his level back to what we saw earlier this season. Exactly what the Big 5 is all about. Maybe Steve needs to tell him to pretend there’s another Inter-Ac guy on every Ivy team. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-19-19 09:18 PM - Post#273125
That was a tremendously contenting win. They really needed it for their confidence too. Even the misses in the first half were great looks. The ball movement was back, they hit clutch shots and made clutch passes to seal it. This was a really important win for the guys. Great job. The best part for me was watching on mute. I can’t listen to that fraud Princeton and Mets fan McCarthy. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32906 |
01-19-19 09:56 PM - Post#273129
Because I know you guys love this stuff, here is the Temple message board. Hint: They are KILLING Dunph. https://247sports.com/college/temple/Board/ Temple-... |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782 |
01-19-19 10:03 PM - Post#273132
Because I know you guys love this stuff, here is the Temple message board. Hint: They are KILLING Dunph. https://247sports.com/college/temple/Board/ Temple-... Bless your heart. You read my mind. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-19-19 10:04 PM - Post#273133
The best part for me was watching on mute. I can’t listen to that fraud Princeton and Mets fan McCarthy. Well, I'm back from the Liacouras Center rewatching the game on the dvr. You'll want the sound on for Dev's steal and dunk at 6:32 of the first half. He lets out a power scream that echoes through the building. For any of you who didn't set the recorder for this classic (ugly at times, but classic nonetheless), maybe it will make its way onto Letsgoquakers.com . |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32906 |
01-19-19 11:11 PM - Post#273139
Really good article on the game and Kuba: http://www.philly.com/college-sports/penn/j akub-ku... |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-19-19 11:25 PM - Post#273140
What a pathetic fan base. Where’s that Temple poster who used to come here talking trash? I still can’t get over the clutch 3s from kuba and Jake. Steve must have had a Kuba feel putting him in so early. He must feel great. Let’s hope Wang hitting a late one gets him going, because some of those misses were really off. Even Dave hit a huge one at the end. Let’s get this next week and settle in for a very interesting league season. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
01-19-19 11:41 PM - Post#273141
Nice win. |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782 |
01-20-19 12:05 AM - Post#273142
There's a witty remark to be made regarding Temple experiencing a Kuban missile crisis, but I'm damned if I can find it. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 02:38 AM - Post#273146
Oof, tough talk from a fan base that can't put that many people in the stands unless you play us or Nova. Came over to congratulate you guys on the title and wish you luck for the outright, and I see trash talk about our fan base that, as usual, was nothing but gracious to the ten of you guys that made the 15 minute subway trip, even in a heartbreaking defeat. But yea, good luck next week. This pathetic temple fan will be there supporting the quakers, like I was at the ivy tournament in march. |
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Charlie Fog Masters Student Posts 587 |
01-20-19 08:04 AM - Post#273148
From the Temple board "But what gifts did Penn give the masterful Fran as a going away gift? Should be good since he handed them a Big 5 championship and our season." lol |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32906 |
01-20-19 08:55 AM - Post#273150
It was probably more like a couple of hundred. But they all were over 40. |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782 |
01-20-19 10:20 AM - Post#273154
I met two Penn students at the game. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-20-19 10:29 AM - Post#273156
Because I know you guys love this stuff, here is the Temple message board. Hint: They are KILLING Dunph. https://247sports.com/college/temple/Board/ Temple-... Bless your heart. You read my mind. I think they are right to question Dunph and here is what I mean. On the plus side, he had them attacking Devon and AJ to get them in foul trouble and took Woods largely out of the game offensively. But... they went a little to far with it and abandoned nearly all ball movement allowing SD to adjust. Fran also knew Penn would be vulnerable to the press and waited too long to go to it IMHO. They also did not put Penn on the line in the final 2 minutes to exploit the weakness there. BTW, anyone notice AJ scored with his left hand yesterday? One other thing - given how little they used Max, I get the sense his back is not improving. Bad news. We are going to be seeing a lot more of Kuba. |
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Charlie Fog Masters Student Posts 587 |
01-20-19 10:37 AM - Post#273157
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-20-19 10:58 AM - Post#273158
BTW, anyone notice AJ scored with his left hand yesterday? Yes, and he was setting up on the left side of the basket fairly often as well. When AJ scored with the left, I pointed it out to P38 who replied that he's been doing it more lately. I don't know, maybe, but the fact that he has the confidence to try is important. He still scoops with the right from the left side which leaves the ball exposed unless the defender is behind him. If the defender sits on his right hand and overplays, AJ will have a free left hand to finish his move. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-20-19 11:05 AM - Post#273160
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'd like to see more before saying we're better off that way. Beside the four straight threes in the first half, he had a steal when he stuck his hand behind him in the passing lane and made a beautiful backwards, over the head assist to Devon. His second half was less productive obviously, so we'll see what he really has against St. Joe's before Steve shortens his bench again for the remaining league games. By the way, there was not a sniff for Jackson Donahue yesterday. If Kuba's outside shot is for real, JD sliding another notch on the depth chart could be an extra bonus. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-20-19 11:37 AM - Post#273162
First of all, you’re not the fan I was referencing but glad I touched a nerve. In even our darkest moments with some truly BAD coaches, the personal vitriol never got anywhere close to what that thread looked like. It was indeed PATHETIC. Sadly, I will still be rooting for them because I respect Fran so much. I can’t wait to see how high Temple soars without him.... As for AJ and his left, thank God. I mean, when the defender overplays you so much that you have no choice, it’s kind of your only play, but he did it on multiple occasions. Watching with my father in law who doesn’t watch much he said “why doesn’t he just turn around and use his left hand underhanded. Isn’t he tall enough?†Yes. Yes he is. And it wasn’t the right hand finish either. If he can use that as a weapon it will open up SO much more. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 02:07 PM - Post#273166
Things are so personal with Fran because he coaches gutless teams that quit on him and each other and play with no heart. He hasn't spent the last 5 years mostly losing because he hasn't had talent, he's done it because he's lost his ability to motivate and focus these kids. He admitted himself that last year's team was the deepest he ever coached, and where did he get with it? And the media drools over him like he's Coach K because he's the nicest guy in the world. I don't know the man and couldn't care less. Penn fans are also complacent. There's not one fan base that pound for pound displays less passion in this city than yours. And don't for a second act like the lows you guys experienced after Fran are in anyway similar to this mess we're dealing with. Glenn Miller and Jerome Allen were crappy coaches who failed from the start, they didn't settle into a comfortable contract and kick their feet up as your program fell apart. I doubt there are many people who don't have a nerve touched when they see their community insulted like that. We could go on about how no Penn fans showed up, as usual, and thank god that your students didn't show up to unveil rollouts with glaring errors (you Ivy folks not so bright without the biased standardized testing process?). But, we don't. Most people have fine things to say about your program. I assumed you'd have bigger things to talk about after winning a Big 5 title for the first time in almost 20 years. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-20-19 02:11 PM - Post#273169
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news. Depends on whether you think Kuba can channel Sam Jones again and you are OK with getting crushed on the offensive boards. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-20-19 02:33 PM - Post#273171
Dear Grape: Now you have touched a nerve. I don't know how much of this board you have read, but we lament all the time how thin the Quaker fan base is among anyone who is not a baby-boomer. This board is populated mostly with old farts who remember the passion of the fan base in the 60's and 70's and some who were around for the dominant 90's and early 00's teams when you could not get a seat for Princeton and Big5 games. If you think the basketball support is pitiful, you should see what our football games are like. I have to admit I was impressed by the turnout and the atmosphere at the LC yesterday when I arrived, given the weather and such. The fact that they keep the ticket prices reasonable also helps (save for the parking which costs as much as 2 tickets.) As for Fran, I understand the frustration. At Penn, he had many teams that we felt could have gone farther than they did had he made better in-game decisions. Despite this, we all love him because he consistently recruited strong teams and ran a highly respected program that educated and developed his players year in and year out. In this sense, the Big 5 is really fortunate to have had guys like Fran, Wright, Martelli, and now Donahue around for so long who respect the game asnd the institutions they work for. You may be right to say the Owls did some things yesterday that I do not expect from Dunphy teams. Fran must be very frustrating for those who loved his predecessor; but try to look at his tenure in its entirety, not just the frustrating losses. Please do not for a minute compare it to the unmitigated disaster that was the Miller-Allen period. If you do, you have no clue how bad that was. |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3619 
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01-20-19 04:31 PM - Post#273182
Hey Grape King, Thanks for stopping by - kind of like when other fans pop over and I often read your Temple board. A few thoughts for you: - Definitely NEVER compare Dunph’s tenure at Temple to Miller or Allen at Penn if you want to have even the tiniest bit of credibility. Miller and Allen were unmitigated disasters and put Penn b-ball into the dark ages for a decade. Miller won a single championship with Dunphy’s kids and then it was a dumpster fire for 10 years. Dunphy did win multiple championships with his own kids. - I love Dunphy being part of Philly basketball but also get the frustration of Temple fans. Obvious downtrend the last few years but more importantly while he had a great run in regular season for a long time, he just never got job done when it mattered in NCAAs. Equally feel he never made the transition to recruit well enough at AAC level. - I also think Dunphy’s loyalty to guys like Dave Duke hurt him in recruiting. I thought Dunph should have moved on from him at Penn to be honest, so the fact that he never got a Power 5 type recruiter was a mistake. - While I understand the frustration, the outright hate of some of the Temple fans for Dunphy is over the top. I’ve followed your board for years and while I get it, even this year when you’ve got a good squad it’s been lots of hate regardless. - I follow all the Big 5 boards, and root for all the other teams when not playing us (and I’ve watched multiple Temple games this year and pulling for you guys), and while Nova is the worst in terms of oozing entitlement and looking down on the other schools, over the last few years Temple has been trending that way which is a shame. - I actually think you will do damage if you can get to NCAAs and hope you guys make it. Do hope you guys kill it in AAC and get to NCAAs, but Dunphy is gone already, no need to continue the bitter pile on, at least that’s how I see it as an outside observer. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-20-19 04:41 PM - Post#273183
Those are all great points, Mike. I'd like to add one other observation about Temple. For whatever reason, some of their guys seemed to quit on defense or lose concentration. I saw that repeatedly yesterday, especially with Rose. On offense, they had no sense of what the team was trying to do. It was almost like whoever got the ball was going to beat us on their own. It seemed as if they felt we didn't belong on the court with them. (Some of the Temple board posts echo the same thought, but as another way of blaming Dunphy, not the players.) Penn ran an offensive clinic on Temple in the second half and we defended their guards very tightly. Despite that, Rose and Alston insisted on playing one on one against us. How much is that coaching and how much is it the kind of guys Fran has to coach? I don't know, but it appears they have shut him out. That's a shame, but I guess it is time to move on. I never thought Temple was a good fit in the first place, and I'm a little surprised Fran stayed as long as he did. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 04:58 PM - Post#273185
I'm just here to lurk and to try to get my finger closer to the pulse of the Penn fan base. I cover the Big 5 for a national hoops blog, and want to get a perspective from you guys that I can't as someone who didn't go to your school and only watches every third or fourth game. I never did compare Fran's temple tenure to Allen/Miller, your cohort did. Yea, Fran does a fine job developing and graduating young men and running a clean program. No one will ever have a bad thing to say about him when it comes to anything off the court. The thing is, we expect to consistently be a top 45 program. We have the facilities, the campus, the history, and the growing academic reputation to achieve that. Chaney did it under more difficult circumstances. And if the guy just couldn't recruit at this level, which has been the case for much of his time here, that's one thing. If he was a loser, that happens; ADs misidentify coaching talent every year. But to see him coach teams that show no heart, no effort, on such a consistent basis, for him to make elementary mistakes and refuse even the most basic adjustments, that's where the personal contempt for him comes from. I'd rather watch losers that play with heart than watch teams with some talent play gutless basketball year in and year out. Fran wastes decenttalent and good teams. That's inexcusable. I don't know that I'd call your support "pitiful", but pound for pound something is missing. Whether it's the energy from the younger generation, a different culture on campus, I don't know. Last year, the Penn side of the Palestra crowd for our game there just looked uncomfortable with the energy Temple fans brought. But, that's fine, that's your community and your traditions. I respect them and your program. But pardon me if I'm going to defend my own community that fills half of your gym on a regular basis when I see people from a generally lethargic fan base call us "pathetic". |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-20-19 05:05 PM - Post#273186
Equally feel he never made the transition to recruit well enough at AAC level. Is there such a thing as “AAC level†recruiting? The AAC is the real problem, and it’s part of the larger problem of schools sacrificing their basketball programs for football. Look at what the AAC move did to UConn, which has had it even worse than Temple. They were at the top of the old Big East recruiting pyramid—they’re struggling to be competitive in recruiting in a shittier conference. Same thing has happened to BC and Pitt in the move from the Big East to the ACC. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3590 |
01-20-19 05:11 PM - Post#273188
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news. Depends on whether you think Kuba can channel Sam Jones again and you are OK with getting crushed on the offensive boards. I don’t think the choice is between Kuba and Max. Different roles for different players. Yesterday SD played Jarrod as Big#2 for most of the game. He also went 10 deep. I suspect he is trying to assess where some guys are and their value. When IL resumes I would expect an iron 7 or maybe 8 again. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-20-19 05:14 PM - Post#273190
I don't know that I'd call your support "pitiful", but pound for pound something is missing. Whether it's the energy from the younger generation, a different culture on campus, I don't know. Last year, the Penn side of the Palestra crowd for our game there just looked uncomfortable with the energy Temple fans brought. But, that's fine, that's your community and your traditions. I respect them and your program. But pardon me if I'm going to defend my own community that fills half of your gym on a regular basis when I see people from a generally lethargic fan base call us "pathetic". Whoa, you're taking wild shots again much like your backcourt. You know nothing, NOTHING, about our community and our traditions. Sadly, neither does our current student body. Our fan base is anything but lethargic. It is aging and shrinking, but it knows our history and cherishes it. If you are covering the Big 5, take a look at its history before Villanova decided it didn't want anything to do with it and Temple jumped on the band wagon just to be like 'Nova. As far as all those things you name that Temple has to offer, "growing academic reputation", even if true (?) isn't going to help recruit on the level you seem to think Temple belongs. They blew it by bailing out of the A10 because they thought they were too good for it. Now look what you've got. An anonymous league that is a hodgepodge of teams that have no reason to be together, no group identity, no geography, no history, no nothing. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 05:50 PM - Post#273192
I mean, I don't know known where you've been in the decades since you graduated (I know you Penn folks don't generally stick around Philadelphia), but everything from business, to law, engineering, medicine, art, our rankings (which I believe are meaningless, but that's what affects academic reputation) have skyrocketed. I think our acceptance rate is down 10% since I started in 2012 (which, again, I dont know is necessarily a good thing; Temple's mission has always been to educate the working class, but I trust our admissions is a little more dynamic as that rate has dropped). There's no arguing our academic reputation hasn't increased. If you don't think you have a low energy fan base, just go to other games in the city. Go to Gola and Hagan. When I'm at the Palestra, Penn fans are constantly throwing dirty looks at Temple fans who are getting into the game. Some older woman turned around to me and snarkly said "thanks" when I yelled "let's go Temple" at one point at the Palestra last year. For a crappy .500 team, we filled half your building. Penn brings BY FAR the fewest fans to Liacouras Center in the Big 5. You're going to tell me that isn't a lethargic fan base? Come on, now. And I want to remind you guys, again, that I have respect for your program and fans, but don't turn around and trash talk any other fan base in this city. You guys have something to celebrate, but it seems you all are mostly unphased by the championship. I don't disagree with you about the AAC. I hate it. I'd rather play in a lower-level league with northeast/east coast publics than in a conference like this that has no identity. You guys are lucky that you have such a close association with 7 other schools like you do. Even Villanova is off to the midwest for every other league road game. But to say we made a mistake leaving the A10 is absurd. Besides UMass, Rhody, and VCU, there are no similar institutions in that league that we should be associated with. Even including Saint Joe's and La Salle, that's 5 out of 14 teams. The league sank when Temple, Butler, and Xavier left. It's a one bid shell of its former self. The AAC is an immensely better position for Temple than the current A10, and it's not even close. There is a very small minority of Temple fans that are indifferent towards the Big 5. Most love and cherish it. Our fan base is nothing like Villanova's. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-20-19 06:41 PM - Post#273195
No, you don't know where I've been, so I'll tell you. I came to Philly from the DC area to attend Penn and have stayed ever since. (I don't have stats, but this area is loaded with Penn alumni.) I have attended at least 90% of Penn's home games since the mid 70s and virtually all of them since becoming a season ticket holder in 1992 - the first year of Allen-Maloney. That team won 42 straight Ivy League games and the Palestra was a heated frenzy. Despite that, even then I felt it wasn't what it used to be when I was in school from 76-80. Granted, a trip to the Final Four towards the end of a decade of near total Ivy dominance at a time that ALL Big 5 games were in a sold out Palestra with a 50-50 fan split will leave a lasting impression. The main difference is that back then the student body was the core of the Penn fan base with the healthy addition of alumni of all ages. There hasn't been anything like it since, but during the Dunphy era it was pretty damn great. The students have flat out stopped coming and there are fewer of us who remember what it was like, but at least we know. I'm not convinced that you have any idea, but you seem to sum us up based on what you observe from the stands. Fine. So Temple's US News ranking is #108. Not bad - top third. What was it a decade or twenty years ago? I know the campus has expanded and the administration has worked hard to increase name recognition, but I'm not sure how much that's going to help in recruiting the kind of athletes Temple wants. I went to grad school at Temple and was pretty impressed by the professors, but my classmates were generally lackluster. Do you remember the A10 when Rutgers and W Va were in the league and the tournament was at the Palestra? It was a very entertaining league with natural rivalries and had a real identity. There were years that all five Big 5 teams had good chances to make the NCAAs including the three in the A10. I still think Temple basketball would be better off even in the current A10, but football makes that impossible. I remember when Temple got kicked out of Big East football, which I think was unprecedented. They joined in the first place because they thought it might lead to getting into the basketball conference in its earlier version. Oh, and by the way, when did I trash talk your or any other fan base? Please point that out for me. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 08:43 PM - Post#273203
I never said you did. I also never said you guys never had a good fan base. But right now, it lacks something. You're identifying it yourself. My issue is that I see on this board our fan base being called pathetic because your precious icon Fran is getting the heat he deserves. He brought you guys to your ceiling on a consistent basis, I get it. He kicked his feet up in early retirement and let the program sink under the weight of his apathy. He was only given the keys because his buddy Bill happened to be giving out the job when Chaney was rightfully pushed out. You're simply flat wrong with your assertion that we'd be better off in the A10. Either you don't understand that league, or you're using anything you can find to talk negatively about our athletics. The A10 is a one bid league, perhaps indefinitely. We went 4-1 against the A10 this year and absolutely should have beaten VCU. Another case of Dunphy having no idea how to adjust, and we had to pull ourselves out of a 17 point first half hole. And NONE of those A10 wins move the needle for our resume. We already have two quality wins in conference play, and have the opportunity for a couple more. We would have to get through the conference tournament to make the NCAAs in the current A10. If we finish top 4 in the AAC this year, our chances our ok, and we probably will make it if we combine that with another quality win or two. No one in the Atlantic 10 has that opportunity. And don't confuse me for one of the A10 haters within the TU fan base, of which there are plenty; I love it. In order, I watch the Big 5, A10, and the AAC on any given night. It's fun, high energy buildings. But it's not the place for a public school with a 40,000 enrollment and an athletic budget that dwarfs probably that of all 14 members. And forget the disparity with the media deal. Yea, 20, 30 years ago, it was perfect. Big 5 schools, north east publics, sign me up. Today, it's a gutted league suited for small private east coast schools with modest basketball expectations. It's great that your classmates were "lackluster" whenever it was that you attended. My classmates were ambitious, hardworking award winners, many that do exceptional work with the Philadelphia community. And no, academics aren't going to be the sole factor in anyone's recruitment, but it's going to help with the overall outlook of our school (which is still getting over the commuter reputation with older generations), and it's one more factor in a race for recruits that has razor thin margins. Someone's on the fence, mom is going to put her thumb on the scale for the school that has a better academic reputation. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 09:05 PM - Post#273204
Mike, Just seeing your post. I'm much the same way, I watch and pull for all the city teams (and I mean "city" literally, I do not support Nova) and also lurk around the boards. I agree with most of what you said. The Temple fan base can have an entitled attitude over the other city schools, but we're rarely speak negatively of the other fan bases (I will admit I did when your students made a horrendous error on a roll out against us last year). There are loud-mouths among us, myself included, but we're mostly gracious to city fans at Liacouras Center (again, exempting Nova). But I often see our community run through the mud by La Salle and Joe's fans (Joe's fans are exceptionally unnecessarily hostile when we're at Hagan). And I get it, our online presence can be, I suppose rough around the edges. I don't say that because we take a lot of really harsh shots at our coach, but there are a few out of touch Temple fans online, and the computer illiteracy of our older fans makes our board difficult to read sometimes. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6417 |
01-20-19 09:41 PM - Post#273206
A couple of thoughts. First, not sure how precious an icon Fran is. Lots of folks on our board were happy, or at least not sad, to see him go. What went on in his wake has certainly improved his legacy. I also think his time at Temple compared to Chaney is a little more complex than some of the discussion. To my eye, Dunphy’s tenure has been more successful than the late stages (say the last 6 years) of Chaney’s time. There certainly was an uptick when Dunphy arrived for a team that hadn’t been to the tournament in a while. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-20-19 10:17 PM - Post#273208
You're absolutely right. Fran pulled the program back from the depths it sank to at the end of Chaney's days. We're not oblivious to that, but it's time for him to go. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-20-19 11:23 PM - Post#273212
Grape, I was in the Graduate School of Education in the mid-90s and crossed Broad St. from Ritter Hall to McGonigle Hall many times during those years. The GSE had a clear philosophy supporting urban public education and was in the forefront of progressive social policies somewhat ahead of its time. I just didn't see much creativity in my classmates then, but the professors were dedicated and smart. Temple is still my second favorite Big 5 school in large part because of its commitment to the city. I always respected Liacouras for that and his refusal to turn his back on North Philly. (I also like St. Joe's because of Martelli's commitment to the traditions of the Big 5. I even don't mind getting bumped out of my seatback at the Palestra once a year to accommodate the Hawk faithful.) Maybe I'm being a little nostalgic for the days when conferences made sense. The A10 regularly got at large bids in those days. It's a shame if it's locked in as a one bid conference now. As far as Dunphy, maybe some Penn fans were glad to see him go, but I was never one of them. I loudly and repeatedly called for giving him a lifetime contract and railed at the younger Penn fans who couldn't remember the abyss he pulled us out of in the late 80s. What made it worse was that our AD (Bilsky) ran him out of town (ok, across town) for some petty reason I still don't understand. Fran probably figured why should he continue to kill himself to win the Ivy League and get a 14 seed, play a great game, but stlll lose in the tournament when he could go to a scholarship school with a rich tradition that was going through a painful transition. Now Temple is going through it again, but this time Fran's the one whose time has come. Sure, it may be time to move on, but the vitriol being spewed towards him is uncalled for. The Owls still have a good record despite some "star" players who sometimes don't seem to care that much. At least they didn't yesterday. But still, you said,"My issue is that I see on this board our fan base being called pathetic because your precious icon Fran is getting the heat he deserves." Do you really see that? I don't. |
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The Quad Sophomore Posts 137 |
01-21-19 12:39 AM - Post#273214
Welcome to our board—always nice to have knowledgeable guests. But didn’t Temple recently beat previously undefeated Top 25 Houston? Aren’t they 14-4, 4-1 in the league, just ½ game behind the 1st place teams? Temple’s NCAA NET ranking just went down from 44 to 61 with the home Penn loss but Temple has close to an NCAA resume, and games to climb back up. Penn hasn’t beaten Temple in like forever—can’t we enjoy the unlikely event? What are we Penn fans missing here? Fran Dunphy is a class act; your program has never been in trouble and they are doing extremely well this year. Every Penn fan I know cheers for Temple except when playing Penn. I recall Temple got robbed in an upset bid against Iowa in the NCAA’s a few years back and classy Dunphy did not complain at all. Dunphy is being forced out; why all the hate? Be careful what you wish for---the grass is not always greener post-Dunphy. We know. |
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RedAndBlue19 Freshman Posts 6 |
01-21-19 03:35 AM - Post#273215
Hey Grape King, Honestly, your perspective from the outside is quite interesting and in many ways do hit some of the pinpoints of our basketball program. I am a current Senior at Penn and the lack of school spirit is across almost all sports at Penn. From the undergraduate level and my perspective (This is coming from a certain level of bias), many of whom are international students or students who have attended private schools that never were known for their athletic culture. Schools that have 100 kids in their graduating classes and kids having to play sports in at least 2 of 3 seasons thus never really attending the games of other sports. For many of the students from public schools, they attended very strong academic public schools that did not quite have a strong athletic program either. As a result, most of the students do not really have a habit of going to sports game, I think I have seen/ran into more students from Penn at the Nova national championship celebration than at the palestra during a usual game. There is an assumption that Penn is the same way, many not knowing that Penn is a division 1 school, some not even knowing the high level performances delivered by many of our athletes (many at the semi-professional level). In a culture where the focal points are in finance, consulting, etc, sports never quite fit into its place. There are sports enthusiasts, but students tend to care much much more about getting a six-figure offer than a friend who is considering rowing in the olympics. Penn today is very practical, quite monetary driven in terms of careers and ambitions. I think the extenuation of that culture infested within the student body on top of the culture of sports never quite being there for the majority of the students in their high school experience has a large part to do with why we do not have a very strong fan base. Though, sad. As a senior, I am loving my experience and watching the quakers and many of my friends continuing to pursue their athletic endeavors even though they are in a culture that tells them to give up those dreams.
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1905 |
01-21-19 12:55 PM - Post#273229
Wow, that was depressing to read, but thanks for the honesty. It was my hypothesis that kids need to be so much more focused to get into Penn than in my days that now it attracts a different (and more academically oriented) kid. It's sad for me to think about the pressure to be perfect these kids have to live with. That said, having such a great building as the Palestra and a Big 5 championship team seems like a waste when the kids don't attend, don't know how to cheer, and are apathetic. I hoped that Villanova would awaken the history. I did root for Temple as well, largely because of Fran. I know that Temple fans want and expect more. There have been debates in the past whether Temple is ordained to be a top 20 team or not. I don't want to rehash that debate. These days, it is tough to be a perennially top 20 team and not be in a power conference. It can be done, but there are so many forces, including a machinery of sneaker sponsored coaches and advisors and TV contracts that tilt the field against. Temple may be great again some day, but it will only get there winning the local talent back. Maybe another coach can raise the game but I worry for Temple. Many of us thought Penn was ordained against the Ivy League. We did have natural advantages. The world changed and great head coaches are very hard to find. I'm glad we won, but wish Fran the best in his next chapter. I also wish Temple the best. They handled the change with reasonable class and at least tried to give Fran a dignified transition.
Hey Grape King, Honestly, your perspective from the outside is quite interesting and in many ways do hit some of the pinpoints of our basketball program. I am a current Senior at Penn and the lack of school spirit is across almost all sports at Penn. From the undergraduate level and my perspective (This is coming from a certain level of bias), many of whom are international students or students who have attended private schools that never were known for their athletic culture. Schools that have 100 kids in their graduating classes and kids having to play sports in at least 2 of 3 seasons thus never really attending the games of other sports. For many of the students from public schools, they attended very strong academic public schools that did not quite have a strong athletic program either. As a result, most of the students do not really have a habit of going to sports game, I think I have seen/ran into more students from Penn at the Nova national championship celebration than at the palestra during a usual game. There is an assumption that Penn is the same way, many not knowing that Penn is a division 1 school, some not even knowing the high level performances delivered by many of our athletes (many at the semi-professional level). In a culture where the focal points are in finance, consulting, etc, sports never quite fit into its place. There are sports enthusiasts, but students tend to care much much more about getting a six-figure offer than a friend who is considering rowing in the olympics. Penn today is very practical, quite monetary driven in terms of careers and ambitions. I think the extenuation of that culture infested within the student body on top of the culture of sports never quite being there for the majority of the students in their high school experience has a large part to do with why we do not have a very strong fan base. Though, sad. As a senior, I am loving my experience and watching the quakers and many of my friends continuing to pursue their athletic endeavors even though they are in a culture that tells them to give up those dreams. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4921 |
01-21-19 03:18 PM - Post#273252
One factual note here: The rankings rise of Temple's Fox School of Business was accomplished via fraudulent means. https://www.phillymag.com/business/2018/07/10/t emp... |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-21-19 03:28 PM - Post#273254
I never did compare Fran's temple tenure to Allen/Miller, your cohort did. Yeah...you kind of did. And you went way overboard with it too. I mentioned that we never dished out personal vitriol like that for former coaches and you're the one who incorrectly compared the situations.
And don't for a second act like the lows you guys experienced after Fran are in anyway similar to this mess we're dealing with. Glenn Miller and Jerome Allen were crappy coaches who failed from the start, they didn't settle into a comfortable contract and kick their feet up as your program fell apart. As for ripping our fans, as everyone else has reiterated, you won't hear much disagreement on this end. Do I wish it were different? Of course. Do I think the student experience can still return? Somewhat. But do I understand why it's happening? Yup. If that makes us pathetic so be it, but I will absolutely call another fanbase pathetic when they act that way. This inflated sense of self worth is going to leave Temple fans very disappointed in the future. You guys have really built up this idea that you can compete on a national level and I just don't see it...despite how "up-and-coming" Temple continues to be. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1905 |
01-21-19 06:05 PM - Post#273267
It's fun to pick fights with people visiting from other boards, but Grape King wasn't overboard in my opinion. I do think he misunderstands how bad the Miller/Allen years were and what a terrible program really is. Something that disappoints me is that Philly basketball is overall down. We only have one team that has performed very well, and the rest are mediocre. I don't think Philly kids dream about playing at Big 5 schools the way they used to when the Sonny Hill league was in its prime. I don't hear about the college stars and NBA players coming back to mentor the young ones. Maybe this is happening, but the Sonny Hill league was the epicenter of this. Why should kids stay local and keep coming back when no one did it for them? Restoring that tradition is what will make Temple great again.
I never did compare Fran's temple tenure to Allen/Miller, your cohort did. Yeah...you kind of did. And you went way overboard with it too. I mentioned that we never dished out personal vitriol like that for former coaches and you're the one who incorrectly compared the situations.
And don't for a second act like the lows you guys experienced after Fran are in anyway similar to this mess we're dealing with. Glenn Miller and Jerome Allen were crappy coaches who failed from the start, they didn't settle into a comfortable contract and kick their feet up as your program fell apart. As for ripping our fans, as everyone else has reiterated, you won't hear much disagreement on this end. Do I wish it were different? Of course. Do I think the student experience can still return? Somewhat. But do I understand why it's happening? Yup. If that makes us pathetic so be it, but I will absolutely call another fanbase pathetic when they act that way. This inflated sense of self worth is going to leave Temple fans very disappointed in the future. You guys have really built up this idea that you can compete on a national level and I just don't see it...despite how "up-and-coming" Temple continues to be. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21310 |
01-21-19 06:13 PM - Post#273269
GK: Welcome to the board. It's tough to be down on the Penn student fan base because aside from last season the last decade has been pretty awful--by far the worst in Penn history. Hopefully last year and at times this year the team can start to build back a strengthened student presence, even if it may never be as numerous as it once was. I agree with the sentiments on this board in terms of how Penn has changed as a school. That makes it harder to draw students although they'll get more if they continue to win more consistently. I have two high school sophomores (and a 7th grader) and would not want them to go to Penn for the reasons mentioned--just would not be a good fit for them. I already had one of my sophomores switch schools because the environment was too much of a pressure cooker, especially socially. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-21-19 06:26 PM - Post#273271
As far as the overboard comment, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think comparing Fran to Glen or Jerome is even partially fair, and it seems you don't either...hence the comment. I didn't think anything else was overboard. Our fanbase deserves criticism. As for the vitriol, you can't go more than two posts on that board without the over the top criticism of Fran. We ripped his game coaching plenty, but this is just mean-spirited hate, as it has been for years now. Again, it just smacks me as an entitled attitude that has next to no basis. Did I miss Chaney leaving the program in incredible shape with a clear path to future success? Aaron is going to have his hands full. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-21-19 06:28 PM - Post#273272
A lot of interesting points from you guys, and like the perspective from your angle. Sorry to come off with such an abrasive attitude, but like most people would, I was standing up for my own community. Sincerely am happy for your Big 5 title. I was really hoping we'd both split it with Villanova. But I do want to clear up that I was not the one that opened up the comparison of Fran with Miller/Allen. I mentioned them by name to distance the two situations when someone said something along the lines of, well there wasn't as much hate for our coaches when things were a lot worse at Penn than they are at Temple right now. I think the picture might be a little unclear to those on the outside as to why Fran personally gets the negativity he does, despite him being a great guy and having a marginal amount of success here and never coming close to scandal. The issue is that his teams quit, and play heartless, undisciplined basketball. That is inexcusable. He doesn't hold players accountable (for instance, both he and Shizz admitted the gameplan on Brodeur was to let Aflakpui play him one-on-one and avoid giving up easy looks outside. They deviated from that gameplan for 40 minutes. That would infuriate any fan). Quite frankly, to Temple fans, he looks like a complacent quitter and his teams have been a reflection of that in recent years. It's not just about us not being where we want to be as a program. This season, we're not far from it. And I don't think Temple fans have any over-inflated expectations about what we should be. I don't personally know or speak to anyone that thinks we should be consistently a top 20 team. Like someone else pointed out, that's so difficult this day and age, especially in a non-power five. What I personally believe should be the expectation is a consistent top 45 team, finding our way regularly in and out of the top 25, regular tournament appearances, and occasional teams that have the potential for a deep run. I don't see a single reason why we can't do what Cincinnati does. This loss stung so hard for a few reasons. One, we had just been drawing fans back to Liacouras Center who had justifiably stayed away, and this let down deflates all of that momentum with the snap of a finger. The Temple community was just now starting to really believe this year would be different. Every time we'd found success in recent years, a huge disappointment was right around the corner, and we really started to believe we finally had a team that was going to not punch huge holes in its resume, that was finally going to show up when it mattered most. And they just showed us that this was just any other Temple team. The loss of a Big 5 title hurts a lot, because who knows when that window will be open again, but there's just so much that went into this loss. That's why this one performance from a 14-4 team has been met so violently by Temple fans. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-21-19 06:35 PM - Post#273273
The ebb and flow of a season has to come into play at some point, no? You guys were on a roll and we had lost 4 straight. Those things don't stay like that forever. We lost to a winless Monmouth team 2 weeks ago... The overall Dunphy criticism is certainly fair, but I always felt a lot of the anger should be directed at the AD. As for players quitting on him, I don't remember that ever happening at Penn, but maybe I am mistaken. Why it's happening now is in interesting question. Aiming to be Cincinnati doesn't seem too outrageous, but I continue to think that you inflate the reasons people would want to come to North Philly. The upgrades have helped, I just don't think you are where you think you are. As for the community coming out, one loss to Penn shouldn't change that. My coworker attended for the first time all year and said the loss won't prevent her from going again. We felt the same way after beating Nova and then lost 4 straight...It happens. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3590 |
01-21-19 08:09 PM - Post#273286
Yea, what I don't get is the complete lack of admission from Temple fans that the Quakers might actually be good. I didn't see one comment that acknowledged we beat Villanova, only: "That was an embarrassing loss...for the conference" "...Temple should never lose to Penn" and my personal favorite: "...they are the 3rd best team behind Nova and Temple" |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-21-19 08:32 PM - Post#273288
I think Penn is a great team. There aren't a lot of fans on the public TU board up to speed on the landscape of college hoops beyond North Broad (and some don't extend their knowledge that far, clearly). HOWEVER, while I believe Penn is capable of beating Temple or Nova on any given night (clearly), I also don't buy that they're the best team in the city. Both of those teams are 14-4 with one loss between them in much tougher conferences. I really like this Penn team, but at 11-6 and 0-2 in the Ivy, I don't think there's much argument that Penn is overall a better team than either of those two right now. But I don't agree at all that it's an embarrassing loss for the conference. That's just a dumb thing to say. |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782 |
01-21-19 08:52 PM - Post#273293
To be fair, I saw at least a couple of comments on the Temple board by their fans clearly advancing the POV that Penn has a very good team this year. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21310 |
01-21-19 09:04 PM - Post#273296
Penn is a good, hard working and well coached team. But I don't think most of us on this board would say it is great. While the Big East and the AAC are stronger than the Ivy League, the gap has narrowed. Any number of ranking systems currently have the Ivy League in the Top Ten.
I think Penn is a great team. There aren't a lot of fans on the public TU board up to speed on the landscape of college hoops beyond North Broad (and some don't extend their knowledge that far, clearly). HOWEVER, while I believe Penn is capable of beating Temple or Nova on any given night (clearly), I also don't buy that they're the best team in the city. Both of those teams are 14-4 with one loss between them in much tougher conferences. I really like this Penn team, but at 11-6 and 0-2 in the Ivy, I don't think there's much argument that Penn is overall a better team than either of those two right now. But I don't agree at all that it's an embarrassing loss for the conference. That's just a dumb thing to say. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-21-19 09:58 PM - Post#273299
Is the complaint about Fran’s teams quitting a recent thing or has it been going on for a while? Fran’s status as a lame duck coach may have something to do with it. This arrangement may have been a good PR move and I’m glad they did it but it had risks with regard to how the team would respond. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-21-19 10:08 PM - Post#273300
I spoke with Fran's cousin Jake Dunphy on the South St. Bridge the night of the Villanova game, and he mentioned that everyone felt awkward about it. You've gotta wonder if the players are more attuned to Aaron McKie at this point. It's just a weird situation. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-21-19 10:45 PM - Post#273302
By next year you’re going to be quite surprised at where this league is ranked. As for Penn as a whole, take away the Wang injury stretch and two games on no sleep in the Caribbean and this 100% was the best team in the city. Whether that can pick back up or continue vs teams that know their offense I doubt, but let’s not pretend like these were flukey wins. Throwing out Penn’s record as you did does indeed dismiss those wins. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-21-19 10:54 PM - Post#273303
Look, if you were at the Nova and Temple games, it was obvious that the better team that night won both games. Nova almost made a flukey, miraculous comeback that would have been an injustice if they pulled it off. There was nothing flukey about any of our Big 5 wins this year. Just one more, flukey or not, and what would have seemed impossible will be reality! I agree that the Grape guy, although basically well-informed about the present, doesn't really understand even relatively recent history and has thrown out a few clankers in this threrad. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122
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01-21-19 11:40 PM - Post#273308
In the interest of frankness, all of the Big Five teams lack the classic attributes of a perennial top 25 programs. In the old days when basketball was a largely eastern phenomenon, they did due to proximity. The power leagues just didn't emphasize b-ball then. So get a great coach like Litwak or Harter or Ramsey at you could get close to the top. Today Villanova is closest to that rank, but it remains a smallish school, with a dinkly gym and without a classic recruiting pool. Yes, it is in the best league of the five, but I think its success has more to do with a great coach than the University. Keep in mind that the Massomino years were lifted by the Big East's TV innovations. Now that the power conferences have big deals, the Big East is no longer a top draw. That's why the departures of the Football schools. We will see what happens to the Cats when Jay W leaves. As to Temple: It is a school that has made immense strides since my day in college, but it remains a mid-range academic institution, with a problematic campus and no natural recruit draw. That Chaney and Franny were successful is remarkable. If the Owls were all our Temple friend says they are, they would be in the ACC or Big Ten, not the AAC. St. Joes has a nice campus for an Urban Catholic school and a great b-ball heritage but is moving steadily to mid-major status. Sadly, LaSalle, with its limited campus, is already there. That leaves Penn, the good Campus, and great academics, but no scholarships and no inherent recruiting base beyond academics. I love it, but even with scholarships, it is a hard athletic sell, especially when you would have to play most league games in high-school gyms on the Ivy League Network? So, I conclude that all the Big Five school by the very nature of their specialized Philadelphiaisms are destined to play at the edges of greatness. I remind you that the fabulous Big Five has a total of, I think, ten Final Four appearances when the real power leagues count that many or more in a decade. Okay, Franny's teams do not do well in the dance when they have to play greatness. Was he a little more clever maybe they advance another round, maybe two, but win the thing? Since the power conferences discovered B-ball only Villanova has had a legitimate shot. I keep a picture of John Chaney, 'our John Chaney' on my fridge right below Richie Ashburn. Franny belongs in that group, as I suspect Steve does too. Our fan base knows now what bad coaching is. As we learned with Penn's hard experience, Temple will do very well to replace 'Our Franny' with a coach of the same caliber. If they do, the Owls will make the tournament sometimes and maybe advance a round or two. More than that will take some very good luck or the move to a new era that we just don't understand now. After all, there was an era when Penn was a power. Oh, by the way. The Qwackers beat the Hooters, not due to the Hooters' lack of hustle, but because Penn now has enough athletes to beat most anybody when the three's are dropping. Next year should Betley and Williams return healthy and the Frosh produce a player or two, Penn will be good enough to beat most anybody even when the three's aren't dropping. Penn won't be that good every year, and it would still be fortunate to advance very far in the Dance - but it sure will be fun watching, just like last Saturday on North Broad Street. For that, I am more than grateful. Now, as for Championships, what is the matter with the *&#X" Eagles, Flyers, Sixers and Phooies? They deserve the boooooooos, not the Owls on a bad night. |
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Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533 |
01-22-19 12:54 AM - Post#273313
They really booed them?? Ivy games are now on ESPN+ FWIW. The hs gym issue is legit but this league could really rise next year. I think of the run the Missouri Valley had for a while. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1905 |
01-22-19 12:55 AM - Post#273314
Yes this is true, but do you expect a Temple fan to know much about Penn's program and to understand the depths of torture we went to perfectly? I followed Temple because of Fran, but I really couldn't tell you what St. Joe's or Lasalle did during that time period, other than that it couldn't have been that good. Agreed that Chaney's teams had declined quite a bit too. Fran actually had a pretty good record during his tenure (including this season), though the last few seasons weren't great. We all know the story on his tournament record.
As far as the overboard comment, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think comparing Fran to Glen or Jerome is even partially fair, and it seems you don't either...hence the comment. I didn't think anything else was overboard. Our fanbase deserves criticism. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-22-19 01:00 AM - Post#273315
I don't disagree that the better team won in any of the Big 5 games Penn has played this year. Also nothing flukey about either win, I agree entirely. Don't take any of what I'm saying to suggest otherwise. I have been high on this Penn team since day one. Someone asked when this perception that Dunphy teams quit began to arise, it was the last two seasons before this one. It was just apparent night in and night out. He had the talent both of those years, claiming last year was his deepest team ever, and coached that down to .500 basketball. A lot of people said last year, well if he can get it done with this team, we'll shut up (myself included). It was a disaster from the second the team got back to Philly after winning the Charelston Classic. This year had seen a huge improvement in effort. They'd pulled off a few miracle games and didn't for a second give up on any game they played this year. Then Saturday happened. I saw "problematic campus" somewhere referring to Temple. I fell in love with Temple because of the campus, and it's changed dramatically in the near decade since I first set foot on it. I don't know if that was a reference to the neighborhood/perceived danger of the area, or if anyone thinks there's some kind of flaw with our physical campus. I wouldn't agree with any of that. I do agree that Villanova is lost without Jay Wright. They struck gold. That's just what it takes. Also, don't take me saying that the Big East and AAC are higher caliber leagues than the Ivy to mean I don't understand that the Ivy is wonderful basketball league that's made huge leaps in just the last few years. I love Ivy basketball. I was in the building for Harvard clinching their share of last year's title and the conference tournament. I think it challenges the Atlantic 10 and the Missouri Valley. Also, Quakers03, I have to disagree about how the Miller/Allen thing came up and how that whole part of the conversation went. You mentioned that you guys never had the personal hate for your coaches that underachieved, and I brought up Miller/Allen to distance the two situations. My whole point was that there were minimal similarities. |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3619
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01-22-19 02:54 AM - Post#273320
Thanks for feedback TGK. Always interested to see different perspectives from other fan bases and like I said, I often read the other city message boards (not as much Nova, but you know...), so good to have visitors. In fairness to the comment about best team in Philly, while our Quakers have played very well in all 3 games and looked the part of best team, even if we ignore the crash of the 4 game losing streak, our advanced stats would have been close to Temple’s rating and still well behind Nova. To all my Penn friends, regardless, even though St. Joe’s is banged up, I fully expect a pretty packed Palestra and a Big 5 battle. Kenpom only has us as a 3 point favorite. Let’s table the “best team in the city†stuff until at least we’re hopefully fortunate enough to win that game and preferably until we have at least one league win... |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3619
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01-22-19 03:13 AM - Post#273321
A few other Penn thoughts from the Temple game that I didn’t get to say yet: -While Kuba was fantastic and the obvious story off the bench, I thought that Jarrod Simmons also played quality minutes off the bench. Even in the Toledo and Monmouth games, I thought he played well defensively (so odd he played no mins against Princeton), but against Temple he seemed to have a better flow as part of the offense. If Max continues to have back problems it is crucial to get good mins from Jarrod so hopefully the sign of progress. - After a tough stretch, Silpe and Devon were fantastic. Antonio still didn’t have the best offensive performance but did a lot of other good things. To succeed though, I think we’ll need production from 2/3 of these guys night in and night out. - Wang still seemed to struggle scoring in the offense a little. His first few shots were off by a mile, but he hit that big 3, just missed a second, and hit some key FTs. Also made some good passes and generated 4 assists. Hopefully this starts to get him back on track and he can really find his groove again this weekend at home. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8340
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01-22-19 10:05 AM - Post#273327
First of all, thanks to GK for outside perspective and a needed injection of youth to the board. We try and provide the perspective that comes from history. I understand Temple’s quest for big time athletic status, but it’s not realistic unless they become THE preferred place for local talent, and I do not see that happening. They can have some top-cycle years where they will make some noise in the Show, but that’s the ceiling IMHO. I’m not buying the Penn ‘best team in th city’ stuff, even if we win Saturday. If we played Nova again on a neutral court, Penn would be at least an 7 point dog, if not more. If we had all our guys healthy, I also think we would be something like 15-2 and knocking on the top 50 door. That would be a best in the City argument. As it is, let’s take care of business Saturday. The Palestra will be nice and full of noisy fans. I love it. |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782 |
01-22-19 10:29 AM - Post#273329
1) Antonio didn't have a brilliant game offensively, but I think he was probably the main reason Alston had a subpar game. 2) I heard no booing from the Temple fans on Saturday. They were irate, but well-mannered. I talked with a couple of guys in the mens room, and they were quite gracious. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3590 |
01-22-19 11:01 AM - Post#273330
1) I talked with a couple of guys in the mens room, and they were quite gracious. This is bordering on too much information.... |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-23-19 12:38 PM - Post#273390
I’m not buying the Penn ‘best team in th city’ stuff, even if we win Saturday. If we played Nova again on a neutral court, Penn would be at least an 7 point dog, if not more. If we had all our guys healthy, I also think we would be something like 15-2 and knocking on the top 50 door. That would be a best in the City argument. As it is, let’s take care of business Saturday. The Palestra will be nice and full of noisy fans. I love it. Just for clarity's sake, I also don't think we're the best team in the city. We're probably third. However, we were the better team on the court and deserve to have won all of our Big Five games so far. That's different. Sometimes the team that was better on the court doesn't win. That would have been the case if Phil Booth hit his Hail Mary shot at the buzzer to force OT and then Nova went on to win. It would have felt like an injustice to me. I imagine Saints fans feel the same way right now because an undeserving team went on to win. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-23-19 08:58 PM - Post#273427
In the Platonic dimension where they play all of these matchups 1000 times, I doubt we would come out first in the Big 5. That being said, we are now in a situation where it's actually imaginable that we can win the Big 5 with a couple of good nights, which was not the case a few years ago.
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1905 |
01-23-19 09:35 PM - Post#273432
How many years has Penn been a Big 5 champ (whether tied or outright) and not won an Ivy title? Hope they can run the Ivy season, but it will be very tough. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21310 |
01-23-19 09:45 PM - Post#273433
In 1992 there was a 5 way tie for the Big 5 title--Penn did not win the IL that year. Same scenario in 1981. '77 they shared the Big 5 title with Temple, no IL title. '63 shared with 'Nova, no IL title. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2215
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01-23-19 10:23 PM - Post#273438
All other things being equal, I would actually say that Temple would be the most natural candidate to lead the Big 5; it has a long record of success (sixth in all-time wins, I believe?), probably the biggest natural fan base (though not necessarily the richest or most devoted) and contra UPIA1968, the campus is a great deal safer and more interesting than it used to be. I agree with UPIA that 'Nova's recent success has a lot to do with Wright (I don't agree that the gym hurts as much, though, since they have access to the Insert Bank Here Center for big games.) That being said: 1.) I'll give them credit for the success they've had in football recently, which I didn't think was possible, but I still don't think it's sustainable, and it's almost certainly not sustainable without taking a huge hit to the athletic budget (see what just came out about Connecticut's financials in this regard.) Even in Philly, which is clearly the most football-crazy town on the East Coast, Penn State just takes all of the air out of the room. The future of Temple's athletic program is going to have a lot more to do with how hoops does than with football, and I would direct resources accordingly. 2.) Unfortunately (from what I understand, anyway), Villanova succeeded in shutting Temple out of the Big East, and while I agree with GK that the American is probably a better situation than the A10 would have been, that says more about what happened to the A10 than it does about the AAC. In future, it might be possible that if the Big East starts sliding a bit, they might be willing to ignore Nova and take another big-market East Coast team; again, another reason to not put too many eggs in the football basket.
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-23-19 10:33 PM - Post#273439
In 1992 there was a 5 way tie for the Big 5 title--Penn did not win the IL that year. 1992 was during that horrible Rollie Massimino-inspired destruction of the Big 5. Nova, being superior to everyone else and not wanting to be burdened by lowering itself to our level, demanded that the City Series be cut in half and that they be allowed to play half of their games on campus. The Big 5, being held hostage by the Wildcats, claimed to have "saved" the City Series by sanctioning two official games for each school each year. Everybody except Nova still scheduled each other, but only the two official games counted in the standings. In '92, all five teams went 1-1, but they didn't play the same teams! Under that system, we played Nova every other year and they came to the Palestra every four years. I stridently called for Villanova to be thrown the hell out and to invite Drexel to join a revamped Big 5 with a true City Series. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122
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01-23-19 10:34 PM - Post#273440
I acknowledge that Temple's campus is much better than it used to be. That does not make it a competitive advantage in recruiting. It ranks fourth in the Big Five and way behind most big market teams with whom it competes for talent. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-23-19 10:43 PM - Post#273441
Even in Philly, which is clearly the most football-crazy town on the East Coast, Penn State just takes all of the air out of the room. I think Philly is a pro football town, as are all the major East Coast cities. College football just isn't that big here. Sure, Penn State will fill the Linc when they come to town, but so would Notre Dame. Big time college football is mostly about the Southeast, Texas, and the Midwest. Unless you can get into one of the big conferences based in those areas, where you'd be a mediocre to bottom dwelling team, you'll never get the revenue to balance your athletic budget. Maryland and Rutgers sold their souls to get into the Big 10 for a slice of the tv package. I wonder if the conference's dreams of huge ratings from the NY and DC markets paid off for them. I kind of doubt it. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
01-24-19 09:56 PM - Post#273493
Villanova has won 2 of the last three national championships. They have two guys in the McDonald's All American game. A dinky gym hasn't slowed them down from becoming a dominant college team. |
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The Grape King Freshman Posts 20 |
01-25-19 07:39 PM - Post#273568
Temple's campus being 4th in the Big 5 is objectively false. It's right up there with Penn (very similar campuses save for Penn having more pre-modernist structures, which is a plus), but I've thankfully never set foot on Nova's so I can't speak for it. La Salle and Joe's campuses are both a full step behind, if not more. Also wrong that our campus is way behind the schools we compete for recruits with. I chose Temple over Rutgers in large part because Temple's campus is far more physically appealing, and has way more life and energy than Rutgers-NB. Seton Hall, St. John's, on the same level as Joe's and La Salle. I've never been to Maryland's, but I've heard fine things. But if you want an urban campus in the northeast, Temple doesn't lack anything. If you don't want that experience, yea, you might end up at Maryland or Penn State. I think some of you are over blowing my comments about campus as a recruiting tool. It's certainly a factor, but a great campus alone doesn't win any recruits. But like I've said, recruiting margins are razor, razor thin. Rarely does a kid know exactly where they want to go. Every player on our roster probably had a hard decision to make, and maybe if campus looks like it did 15 years ago, Damian Dunn is signed with Georgia Tech and Quinton Rose is playing for DePaul. It's just so tight, everything matters. Of course some things are weighted more, but every factor matters. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32906 |
01-25-19 08:17 PM - Post#273573
Temple's campus has improved 1000% since the 1970s, when I was at Penn and had friends who lived in my house in W. Philadelphia and went to Temple. I wouldn't compare it with Rutgers--it's a different experience. But it is clearly better than the others you mention, other than Villanova, which attracts a very different student. |
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LyleGold PhD Student Posts 1712 |
01-25-19 08:46 PM - Post#273576
And Temple's campus has also improved 100% since I spent a couple years out there in the mid-90's. Despite that, the suggestion that it is on a par with Penn's is, well, a stretch to put it mildly. We have a combination of historic, architecturally significant buildings (The Quad, College Hall, Logan Hall, Furness Building, Irvine Auditorium, Houston Hall, University Museum, and, oh yeah, The Palestra and Franklin Field) along with modern state of the art facilities. Penn's campus has developed in recent years to the point that at times parts of it seem unrecognizable. When you throw in the traditional Ivy campus feel of College Green and Locust Walk along with the magnificent Penn Park that was reclaimed from the horrendous eyesore that was the old postal yards, Temple's vastly improved campus falls far short. Granted, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we are all swayed by personal ties, but I just don't see how it's even close. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122
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01-26-19 12:11 AM - Post#273587
The problem with Temple's campus it is its location - North Philly? At to big time competitors, it not Seton Hall and Rutgers, it Michigan, Duke, Stanford etc. |
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