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SteveChop PhD Student Posts 1156	05-19-20 08:52 PM - Post#307560 Interesting article from SI on how the virus may affect the 2020-2021 college football and, more importantly for this group, basketball seasons. https://www.si.com/college/2020/05/19/co lleges-shi...
Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533	05-19-20 09:23 PM - Post#307565 I assume many of you received the survey today? I just donâ€™t see myself attending a game until we have a vaccine. Iâ€™d imagine that might be a minority opinion around the country, but not on this board.
gopenngo Masters Student Posts 487	05-19-20 10:01 PM - Post#307569 I'll be there for the Red & Blue Scrimmage, first home game and most of the other home games. Except, I will not pay to see a game against Wideman, Mysinus, or any other exhibition games of that ilk. I'm happy to manage my own risk, and lead the life I want in whatever time I have left.
Charlie Fog Masters Student Posts 587	05-20-20 06:12 AM - Post#307571 social distancing hasn't really been a problem at the Palestra for most games.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-20-20 07:41 AM - Post#307574 It depends on the situation in November and the measures used, if necessary, at the arena. Too many variables right now still to say. I see now that in Vienna, all the cafes and bars are open and there is no spark of infection. If we are at that stage, I would take the slight risk. If the numbers are as they are now, almost certainly not.
ivyrules Freshman Posts 19	05-20-20 07:49 AM - Post#307576 If and when it becomes clear, either pre-season or during the season, that the upcoming basketball season could be altered (or aborted) to conference only play, as the SI article suggests could happen, might star seniors opt to sit out or jump ship to remain eligible for grad transfer opportunities?
ivyrules Freshman Posts 19	05-20-20 07:54 AM - Post#307577 If I were a stud senior in the league, I might elect not to risk wasting a year of eligibility on a potentially altered or aborted season if I knew I could get a year of grad school paid for at a Cal or some such place.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-20-20 07:59 AM - Post#307580 Since Penn doesn't have any stud seniors, that should not be an issue for them. But it may be an issue as to whether the League itself decides to play or not.
20Penn14 Senior Posts 364	05-20-20 08:15 AM - Post#307584 Honestly, with ESPN+ streaming all the home games, I am willing to stay at home and watch most if not all the games online
Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782	05-20-20 09:59 AM - Post#307612 ivyrules Said: If I were a stud senior in the league, I might elect not to risk wasting a year of eligibility on a potentially altered or aborted season if I knew I could get a year of grad school paid for at a Cal or some such place. Yeah-- that. At some point the league is going to have to re-evaluate its asinine grad transfer rule, as the problem is only going to get worse and worse. Furthermore, being able to dangle a year of free Ivy League grad school in front of HS players and their parents could become a really potent recruiting asset.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-20-20 10:03 AM - Post#307614 It cannot work unless you give athletic scholarships. Financial aid policies of the Ivies for grad schools are very different from undergraduate policies and each school has its own admissions policies--grad policies do not favor athletes. So unless we go to scholarships, we cannot promise a year of free grad school, nor admission to grad school for that matter.
Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3782	05-20-20 10:17 AM - Post#307621 I get your point, but I have to believe there's a creative solution to this problem. Whether or not this bunch will find it remains to be seen (I'm not hopeful).
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-20-20 10:29 AM - Post#307624 Columbia (and NYU) this morning announced plans to have in-person classes in the fal.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-20-20 11:30 AM - Post#307633 I think colleges are recognizing that if this isn't treated as a short term emergency, there will be a general rebellion against tuition. Watch for the waiver agreement that almost certainly will be part of this.
Streamers Professor Posts 8340	05-20-20 11:38 AM - Post#307634 Columbia and NYU being dense urban campuses, will be among the most difficult to adapt. I also think it's a mistake to generalize across schools. Too many variables there. Each will have its own set of risks and opportunities. I fear it will be a bit like what we are seeing in retail where schools with big brands and resources will survive at the expense of everyone else. Only thing I know is that this will force a seismic shift in the business models for many schools - probably a long time coming, but this is accelerating things greatly.
SomeGuy Professor Posts 6417	05-20-20 12:28 PM - Post#307637 As with everything else, it will be interesting to see if there is a shift in how we consume sports. Something for the leagues to think about if they move to a temporary no fans in stadium structure. I would watch baseball all day on TV if it started now. But I wouldnâ€™t set foot in a stadium, and I donâ€™t know when I will. Probably when a vaccine is available, and by then I may have decided I like watching on TV better, which is already my preference for football. I will renew my season tickets for Penn basketball for various reasons, but as of now I wonâ€™t physically be there for the games.
mrjames Professor Posts 6062	05-20-20 12:36 PM - Post#307638 Agree with P38. The information that we'll all have will only continue to grow (and grow exponentially, at that) over the coming months. Doesn't make a ton of sense to extrapolate linearly from what we know today. At the same time, that doesn't necessarily mean that things will get exponentially BETTER, just that we'll be way more informed to make smart, safe decisions that will give us more confidence in things happening or not.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-20-20 12:54 PM - Post#307641 I think that given what we know now, students overwhelmingly will attend classes and events. The real issue will be with the faculty
Streamers Professor Posts 8340	05-20-20 12:57 PM - Post#307642 Mike - I wish that were true. It is already clear that a growing portion of the data we are getting to base our decisions on is being corrupted
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-20-20 01:00 PM - Post#307643 Related--this is one of the better pieces I've seen on this subject. Skillfully integrates a moving narrative into a wider research and analytic discussion. I think Mike would like this, too. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/coronavirus- d... Streamers Said: Mike - I wish that were true. It is already clear that a growing portion of the data we are getting to base our decisions on is being corrupted
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-20-20 01:16 PM - Post#307644 It is, but what it would not show is that people in relatively good health are dying in numbers. Which means as we go forward (unless I am wrong about this) is that we must do more to protect those at high risk and allow the return to smart, but new-normal behavior for everyone else. More than that belongs down in the OTB
mrjames Professor Posts 6062	05-20-20 01:41 PM - Post#307645 While it is disappointing to see reports of data being manipulated, I'm not so much referring to the data, which is a outcome statistic but rather the medical understanding that can impact the process of treating the disease. Our understanding of how the virus is spread, ability to test rapidly and accurately, ability to treat severe cases and progress toward a vaccine are all part of the potential acceleration of information. Any successes in those areas will lead to greater and greater comfort with the associated risk. The data would, in turn, be expected to show that success.
Streamers Professor Posts 8340	05-20-20 01:51 PM - Post#307647 I can appreciate that distinction.
OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639	05-20-20 05:14 PM - Post#307655 Lots of uncertainty for sure. I would have thought the NBA and NHL would have resumed by now but understand it's complicated. It's disappointing but I can't see going to any sporting event or concert until vaccine or until the chances of catching are very low. I was hoping to add a few MLB parks to my list of those attended this year so that makes me sad but we all just need to adjust. Glad I am retired and don't need to worry about going to an office. Daughter struggling with decision of whether or not to send grandson to preschool in August--largely because we will help provide day care and she worries about us catching. Strange times indeed. Hopefully we can start getting some sports on TV but generally think it would be good for college sports to take a year off.
gopenngo Masters Student Posts 487	05-20-20 10:27 PM - Post#307657 I absolutely do not understand why we want to tell young adults that they shouldn't be allowed to participate in college sports for the next year (or more?). They've been inundated with fuzzy numbers and propaganda from ALL sides for the last few months. And it's only been a few months. As our future leaders, it's time for them to think critically, balance their aspirations and risks, and move forward. Maybe some will shelter in place until our generation tells them it's Ok, that's it's finally "safe" to live their lives. Others will go to the gym and pursue their dreams. It's not for us to decide. Our generation's decision is how many TVs we want in our basement, and who is best at delivering our food and drink. Some of us will actually go out and cheer for the generation that embraces their lives, and not tell them what they can't do.
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-20-20 10:29 PM - Post#307658 Well, ready or not (and we're not)...here we go... https://www.si.com/college/2020/05/20/nc aa-college...
10Q Professor Posts 23552	05-21-20 04:21 PM - Post#307716 You mentioned waivers. What kind of waivers?
SteveChop PhD Student Posts 1156	05-21-20 05:45 PM - Post#307720 I'll let P38 answer for himself (he's good at it) but I assume that what he was referring to will be a requirement by the schools that if the student enrolls, s/he waives his/her right to sue the school for providing education in a format different (i.e. online) from what had been described originally (in person classes, ability to interact with other students and faculty, etc.). There is currently a slew of litigation where students are alleging that by offering online classes this semester, the students did not receive education having the value they paid for.
rbg Postdoc Posts 3068	05-21-20 09:18 PM - Post#307731 Penn outlines four possible scenarios for fall 2020, will finalize plan by end of June https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/05/penn- update-... - In the case that on-campus activities resume, the University outlined efforts to ensure campus safety amid the pandemic. The â€˜Public Health Social Compactâ€™ would require students, faculty, and staff to wear facial masks, practice six-feet physical distancing measures, and avoid large gatherings of 25 or more people, including all extracurricular activities. -
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-21-20 09:32 PM - Post#307733 Getting up and down the elevators in the High Rises could take a while, too. rbg Said: Penn outlines four possible scenarios for fall 2020, will finalize plan by end of June https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/05/penn- update-... - In the case that on-campus activities resume, the University outlined efforts to ensure campus safety amid the pandemic. The â€˜Public Health Social Compactâ€™ would require students, faculty, and staff to wear facial masks, practice six-feet physical distancing measures, and avoid large gatherings of 25 or more people, including all extracurricular activities. -
UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122	05-22-20 11:24 PM - Post#307818 It is time to acknowledge that we have taken part in a monumental overreaction to a troubling but relatively normal physical phenomenon. Colleges are a classic example, being populated by a group of people largely immune to the contagion. As to the cancellation of extracurricular activities. I suggest that such activities teach young people more useful lessons that what takes place in the class rooms. That certainly was true for me.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-23-20 05:33 AM - Post#307821 It's a result of a 2 month underreaction. When suddenly, people were dying and the hospitals were overrun, there was an equal overreaction. You wouldn't have had the latter without the former.
HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2701	05-23-20 12:20 PM - Post#307829 Hey P38, we wholeheartedly agree on this one! Also, there was a flawed premise. Students are not â€œimmune.â€ They would become infected but be less likely than most of the population to suffer serious consequences. They would, however, be contagious. University staff, professors and local residents would be at greater risk around campus. Everyone would have been at risk once the semester had ended and students went home or on to wherever. Not worth explaining the lessons we learned from New Rochelle and Biogen all over again. Sort of creepy to suggest that we should ignore the impact on others because students might not fare so poorly. If that means I just called some politicians willing to sacrifice the elderly and vulnerable creepy, maybe I should use a stronger term.
mrjames Professor Posts 6062	05-23-20 01:47 PM - Post#307833 I know we're all trained to be skeptical of Ivy presidents and their feelings toward their institution's athletic programs, but... some things to keep in mind here. President Bacow put a stop to the Ivy Tourney after looking at the evidence and realizing that the virus was spreading rapidly and there was no guarantee that it wouldn't be in the building that weekend potentially to infect some very at risk segments of the population that would be attending. In fact, President Bacow, himself, was on the border of the most at-risk demographic. Despite cancelling the tourney and taking precautions, President Bacow contracted the virus, and he and his wife had a long battle with it and recovery from it. It's hard to imagine anyone both more personally and professionally aware of the risks associated with this virus among a campus community - and by COMMUNITY, I mean ALL that are part of the campus, not just the 18-22 year old undergrads. I trust President Bacow to make a prudent decision here that puts the safety of the entire community first, and I'm happy to wait for athletics to resume until the safety of all involved can be guaranteed at the level that all members of the community would expect if they were living their daily lives abiding by the governing social protocols. If that means no 2020-21, so be it. This is a pandemic we haven't seen on these shores in 100 years. Maybe it's good that this country's vapid generations that have been untouched by true crisis at our doorstep finally get a clue that the world isn't always going to be a safe bubble where the greatest concern is the number of likes on an Instagram account and the greatest indignation is insensitive speech.
Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533	05-23-20 02:41 PM - Post#307837 Agreed in full. I am sick of the selfishness that accompanies the opposing view. It affects ALL OF US.
Streamers Professor Posts 8340	05-23-20 03:40 PM - Post#307842 mrjames Said: This is a pandemic we haven't seen on these shores in 100 years. Maybe it's good that this country's vapid generations that have been untouched by true crisis at our doorstep finally get a clue that the world isn't always going to be a safe bubble where the greatest concern is the number of likes on an Instagram account and the greatest indignation is insensitive speech. Agreed, but I have my doubts as to whether the lessons are being learned in some cases. Vapidity is a lingering thing.
UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122	05-23-20 11:08 PM - Post#307856 Please keep in mind that denying 30 million Americans their jobs and incomes has an alarming degree of selfishness.
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-23-20 11:18 PM - Post#307857 UPIA1968 Said: Please keep in mind that denying 30 million Americans their jobs and incomes has an alarming degree of selfishness. Human life comes first. No-one likes the fact that people are out of work. That is why the Democrats pushed to include a $600/week unemployment benefits in one of the stimulus bills. I'd be much more concerned about individuals who are FORCED to go to work despite very serious health risks, such as the meat packing plants. The states where those plants are located are denying those workers unemployment benefits if they refuse to show up due to health concerns--even though the Feds have not forced any of these workplaces to take any measures to protect the safety of these workers. The result? A lot more sick people as a result, and more deaths as well.
Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533	05-23-20 11:28 PM - Post#307858 UPIA1968 Said: Please keep in mind that denying 30 million Americans their jobs and incomes has an alarming degree of selfishness. Take a look around the country this weekend. Tell me how many masks you see. What word would you use other than selfish?
Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1905	05-24-20 12:25 AM - Post#307859 The astounding thing about this is that people around the world have shown us how to save lives AND go back to work. In Hong Kong, kids are going back to school. They are taught to practice hygiene in bathrooms and wear masks. People have been wearing masks since the beginning, without any complaints. Travelers entering face mandatory quarantines, with verification by cell phone. They do contact tracing of people found positive. This is allowing people to go back to work, go back to school, and spend time together socially. The people who are complaining loudest are the ones preventing us from returning to a normal-fish life. I don't know if it was an over-reaction, but I would agree that shutting down the entire non-essential economy was pretty draconian and indiscriminate. There are certainly more workplaces that could have gone back earlier with proper safety measures in place.
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-24-20 12:25 AM - Post#307860 I am just catching up on events today and cannot believe the clips I am seeing from Lake of the Ozarks and Ocean City. Now THAT'S selfish. There are going to be an awful lot of people sick during the next month across this country just from that.
mrjames Professor Posts 6062	05-24-20 09:02 AM - Post#307866 Quote: Please keep in mind that denying 30 million Americans their jobs and incomes has an alarming degree of selfishness. As someone who works with data for a living, this argument is one that I would normally champion. Humans have a much easier time comprehending (and generally ascribe lots more weight to) the discrete, highly publicized outcomes while ignoring the diffuse and much weightier outcomes. The economic damage we are doing will ultimately result in a massive number of deaths - a story that will get only a small fraction of the coverage of this virus. That being said, as others have mentioned, itâ€™s a false equivalency to compare the two arguments. The economic issues related to the virus could be solved with the stroke of a pen, if the country so chose. Iâ€™ll stay out of the political side of all of this, but itâ€™s a fact that the country could technically make affected parties whole with legislation. The virus cannot be solved with a stroke of the pen. We cannot â€œchooseâ€ to ameliorate the impact of the virus like we can with the economy. And the notion that people should be able to take on risk as they see fit is also a terrible argument because of the MASSIVE externalities here. The appropriate correction would be to say if you end up being a vector for anyone downstream that perished from the virus, then you are sentenced to death yourself. I have a feeling no one would sign on for that liability, so thatâ€™s why the â€œIâ€™m fine taking the riskâ€ argument falls apart.
Streamers Professor Posts 8340	05-24-20 10:42 AM - Post#307867 UPIA1968 Said: It is time to acknowledge that we have taken part in a monumental overreaction to a troubling but relatively normal physical phenomenon. I had to read this post a few times to make sure it wasn't a bit of wry sarcasm this board is known for. Once I realized it was serious, I was too put off to respond until now. As someone who clearly has a strong relationship with facts, data, and analysis in a basketball context; I found it hard to believe UPIA could possibly have these sentiments. To say that this situation is 'relatively normal' when we have not seen anything like it in 100 years is preposterous at best. While an argument can be made that some business owners and their employees have been denied their livelihood more than is absolutely necessary, public policy in a crisis must always adhere to the philosophy that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Absent any coherent leadership at the federal level, each Governor and local leader has no choice but to make and adapt their approaches to the situations they face. Even the more careful ones, like Wolf here in PA, are clearly trying to get as many people back online as they can safely. These leaders understand that the only thing worse than the current situation is one where we open and then return to square one when the second wave hits (something we are already beginning to see in some of the reckless states despite the effort to suppress that information.) I pointed out today on another platform that our veterans made it impossible to kill thousands of citizens on our own soil and wreck our economy using the weapons of conventional war. Now, all it takes is a bunch of REOPEN Twitterbots promoting anti-social behavior and an idi*t in the White House to achieve that result. Something we all need to think about this weekend.
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-24-20 10:44 AM - Post#307868 Do you know how many covid deaths there have been, in total, in Hong Kong? 4. Confirmed cases? A little over 1,000. This despite the fact that Hong Kong is one heck of a lot closer to Wuhan than the US, and that Hong Kong itself is one of the most densely populated places on the planet for its 7.45 million residents. With 328 million Americans, even if you multiply those above figures by, say, 45, that would still leave you well, well, short of the over 1.62 million cases and close to 100,000 deaths in the US. I'd say it was a gross underreaction by the US. Penndemonium Said: The astounding thing about this is that people around the world have shown us how to save lives AND go back to work. In Hong Kong, kids are going back to school. They are taught to practice hygiene in bathrooms and wear masks. People have been wearing masks since the beginning, without any complaints. Travelers entering face mandatory quarantines, with verification by cell phone. They do contact tracing of people found positive. This is allowing people to go back to work, go back to school, and spend time together socially. The people who are complaining loudest are the ones preventing us from returning to a normal-fish life. I don't know if it was an over-reaction, but I would agree that shutting down the entire non-essential economy was pretty draconian and indiscriminate. There are certainly more workplaces that could have gone back earlier with proper safety measures in place.
palestra38 Professor Posts 32906	05-24-20 12:19 PM - Post#307872 While I appreciate Mike's reluctance to be political, there is no avoiding the reason why measures either way, like in Hong Kong or in Sweden, that depend on adherence to authority, will not work here. Trump and the Tea Party (or whatever they call themselves these days--how about "very fine people.") Even when they massively disagree on political issues, Hong Kong and Swedish citizens believe in facts. So when even a government they do not like and have protested issues rules for social distance and masking in public, THEY OBEY IT. Same with Swedish measures enacted when they did not lock down--they obey social distancing and best practices even when they have not been mandatory, because there isn't the same kind of nihilistic-anti-fact and science idiocy as there is here. If we could be sure that everyone would obey reasonable measures, they would come much faster. But one Party has been completely taken over by Know-Nothingness and it simply is impossible to trust people to do what is right since about 1/3 get their "news" and other information from sources that call it "alternative facts" Until we rid the nation of such moronic drivel, we will have problems in both health and economics.
10Q Professor Posts 23552	05-24-20 03:16 PM - Post#307881 Hong Kong had jillions of testing kits left over from sars
penn nation Professor Posts 21310	05-24-20 03:34 PM - Post#307882 10Q Said: Hong Kong had jillions of testing kits left over from sars And got them distributed and utilized properly. Our government made no effort to obtain or produce the kits even though it had plenty of advance warning. Later, even as states begged our national government for assistance they were advised that they were all on their own. We had to bid against each other (and even against our own federal government). What a disaster. Only a few weeks ago, the Senate physician said he did not have enough kits to test all of the Senators. This, while Trump and co. now get tested daily (albeit using the fauly Abbott kits, which had a lot of false negatives).
10Q Professor Posts 23552	05-24-20 03:39 PM - Post#307883 Take it to the otb. Weâ€™re talking hoops here.
Quakers03 Professor Posts 12533	05-24-20 09:13 PM - Post#307886 10Q Said: Take it to the otb. Weâ€™re talking hoops here. Guess I missed the part where you weâ€™re â€œtalking hoops hereâ€? Nothing happens here until we can first figure out the testing situation.


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