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Username Post: I'm Not a Recruiting Maven, but....
palestra38
Professor
Posts 30851
09-30-22 11:05 AM - Post#344911    

Seems Harvard and Yale are loading up with very well regarded recruits for the next two years. Unless I see something equivalent for Penn, you have to conclude our window is the next 2 years. Do I have this wrong?
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts 1535
09-30-22 12:33 PM - Post#344914    

All aboard the Dingle Express!
palestra38
Professor
Posts 30851
09-30-22 01:12 PM - Post#344915    

You know I'm riding.
nychoops
Sophomore
Posts 199
09-30-22 05:33 PM - Post#344932    

Let me start by saying my opinions are mine and not reflective of anybody or anyone else on or associated with the team..
I have been critical in the past and nothing has changed..the process,efforts and results of recruiting from this staff is not close to good enough. They have a generational talent to use as a recruiting tool and to surround with talent and they are falling. No need to folllow up or talk about it again ..if I'm proven wrong I'll with PLEASURE come back and admit I was wrong
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts 1535
09-30-22 07:43 PM - Post#344940    

I appreciate you sharing that, NYCHoops. I hope for the best, but can't say you are misinformed or wrong. Hopefully we'll all be able to say that at the end of the season, though!



SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-01-22 08:06 AM - Post#344949    

I guess I’ve had the opposite reaction. To me, Harvard’s recruiting has been waning some. I think Mack is a good one, but not on par with some of the kids they were getting a couple of years ago.

Yale got one very good one, but again I don’t think they are killing us for next year.

Part of the problem last year was volume, but that isn’t a problem this year. We already have 3. Harvard has 3 and Yale has 2. Harvard and Yale have the top 2 kids in the class right now, but we’re competitive. There is some online evidence that we beat out Princeton for the kid we got this week.

Anyway, I’ve been feeling like recruiting is trending up comparatively, not down. In regard to the window, the HYP freshmen didn’t outplay our freshmen last year (and for Harvard, there was lots of opportunity), so I don’t see the window slamming as a result of that class.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 30851
10-01-22 08:36 AM - Post#344950    

I think we have the best returning players in the League...including the best returning player. Dingle may be a 2000 point player at Penn. Just need to get better play inside to win the title.

As I said, I am no recruiting maven, but in terms of recruiting ranking, we are well below H and Y for 2023 and 2024. Hopefully we will pick it up for 2024 so that when this window closes, another opens. But right now, I don't see it.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-01-22 12:44 PM - Post#344958    

I’m not sure we’re behind Harvard for ‘23. I guess we’re behind Yale for ‘23 if you include their transfer. Sure, Harvard has a big lead for ‘24 with a top 100 guy, but that’s the only ‘24 recruit in the league thus far. I’m not ready to concede before anyone else has any commits.

I guess I’m surprised that you are on this now — the difference between us and Harvard in recruiting looks less stark to me for ‘23 than it has the last couple of years.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4451
10-04-22 06:06 AM - Post#344994    

let's just ignore nychoops opinion as an unbiased outsider. that's a good idea!
Streamers
Professor
Posts 7210
Streamers
10-04-22 07:04 AM - Post#344995    

I don’t think anyone here is foolish enough to ignore nychoops. I am seeing some justifiable optimism about the upcoming season and the ‘23 recruiting class, but I doubt anyone is truly refuting his point about potentially wasting the window of opportunity the program has to leverage the talent Penn has in place as a recruiting tool.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 30851
10-04-22 07:59 AM - Post#344996    

I'm in on the fact that I think we have the best returning talent in the League and have a really good shot to win this year and next with Dingle and company. 2 years from now is a different issue, and, as Steve said, we need to be leveraging the talent we have to bring in their replacements.

Don't forget about Yale, with several recruits of a high ranking and a transfer from Northwestern who is certainly at a high Ivy level (or above). I pretend to know nothing other than what I read, which is Harvard and Yale pulling in recruits, and doing so over us.
AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts 4234
10-04-22 11:21 AM - Post#345002    

If in fact you believe we have the best returning talent, then we should recognize that most of them were typical mid major recruits, including our generational talent who was very lightly recruited.

Because of Caril and Princeton we have always hated the word system; nevertheless, we employ one. Steve looks for good kids who will work hard, play defense and can shoot the ball. I think all 3 of our ‘23 recruits will fit in nicely. Best guess is that he’s looking for a couple more this year. I think we could use a pg who can get to the hoop and perhaps another 4/5.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-04-22 01:18 PM - Post#345011    

Agree with all of this. Two of the last three years, we seemed to strike out a lot on who we wanted (though we did land Slajchert, Laczkowski, and Thrower in those “down” years). This next class, it at least looks like we are getting the guys we want. They may not be the guys that the recruiting sites say are best, but they may well be the guys who are best for what we do. Agreed this class needs a big. I’d like 2, frankly.
palestra38
Professor
Posts 30851
10-04-22 01:24 PM - Post#345015    

I'm still hoping we get 4 years in one from Lorca-Lloyd this year....and a major step up from a good start from Spinoso. Don't know what we have in the freshman Ubochi.
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts 4451
10-04-22 03:23 PM - Post#345016    

if steve had a system and specifically was not fishing in the same pond, i'd agree with all this. But he is. he strikes out. all. the. time. change up your assistants for god's sake. I'd rather they just fire his mediocre self but let's find something else.
nychoops
Sophomore
Posts 199
10-04-22 05:05 PM - Post#345020    

A quick clarification. In NO way did I mean to insult the players either on or off the floor that the staff has brought in. It's a tribute to their hard work that has enabled them to be in this position and I apologize if my post was misinterpreted. However I maintain my position that the staff does not identify, recruit and peruse kids in a way that they should be. I understand the system argument but a talented player runs a system better then a mediocre one. And nobody knew that better then Pete.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-04-22 07:29 PM - Post#345022    

Yes, that would be great. My guess is that we see a 3 headed center with fairly even distribution overall. But MLL as the starter. But we’ll see. I’d be surprised if Ubochi is ready, but who knows. Seems more likely that Larson is ready to help this year.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5491
10-04-22 07:58 PM - Post#345023    

  • nychoops Said:
I understand the system argument but a talented player runs a system better then a mediocre one.


This. Guys like Kirkwood or Dingle can fit any Ivy system.

Recruiting a 'system' player could help at the margins, but is it even in the equation for higher quality recruits? I'd think not.

If this year is another 3rd or 4th place in the league with no dance can we agree something's off with recruiting? Or is just making the Ivy tourney considered OK now?


SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-04-22 10:14 PM - Post#345024    

Probably depends on how high you go. Even at the level of high recruits for Ivies, there are guys who aren’t system fits. The highly rated center who played a year at Columbia and then transferred to Michigan leaps to mind. He wasn’t a fit for Engles system. Yet they brought him in anyway. And didn’t change the system.

Of course, you could say the same of Lorca-Lloyd for us.

All that said, while I think system fit does matter, talent matters too. There’s been some discussion of Pete. For all of the narrative of the Princeton system, etc., I think either Pete or Fran would have told you that the team that won the league in those days had the better talent, full stop.

I am optimistic that the commitments we have in next year’s class are talented and will excel at Penn — in Steve’s system. And I think even on paper, they match up fine with Harvard’s recruits for ‘23. Yale with Simmons is another matter.
TheLine
Professor
Posts 5491
10-05-22 08:47 AM - Post#345025    

Would Lorca-Lloyd be a star (one of the best couple of players on the team) where he would be a better system fit? Or a better complementary player?

I'd think the latter.

Conversely, Spinoso looks like a system fit who could wind up being a better complementary player at Penn even though he doesn't have the tool set Lorca-Lloyd has.

That's what I mean about system players helping at the margins. Spinoso could be the starter at center for the next 3 years because he fits the system, but does Penn make it to the dance if he's one of the best 2 or 3 players on the team?

SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-05-22 02:59 PM - Post#345026    

Yes, there is nuance there. Agreed MLL probably isn’t an offensive star at any level. But there are systems that employ a more regular low post presence and don’t expect their bigs to pass a lot, and he would be a better fit in such a system.

Not sure on Spinoso. I’d prefer to see what he becomes this year before making a proclamation about whether he could be a top 2-3 player on an Ivy champ. For last year, he obviously was a role player. I’m also not sure how much of a priority recruit he was.
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts 3446
10-05-22 03:58 PM - Post#345028    

I don't think the Northwestern transfer to Yale is for this year. I think he is a 23-24 kid. I think Harvard has the best returning talent but we might have the best returning team.


palestra38
Professor
Posts 30851
10-05-22 04:37 PM - Post#345029    

I'm with you on that prediction.

But transfers no longer have to sit out a year, so I expect Yale to have its NWern transfer available immediately.
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts 6103
10-05-22 11:28 PM - Post#345040    

All public word is that he isn’t available until ‘23-‘24. He isn’t on the roster, and all of the incoming freshmen are.



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