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| Username | Post: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread | |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-02-23 02:38 PM - Post#356105
[I'm creating a new thread b/c I don't want to continue seeing the "Now What" frustration thread of Jeff2SF at the top of the page. I share frustration, but don't need to see the petulant conversations about who's right or wrong as a part of it.] NYCHoops, no need to let our speculation draw you out on the personal decisions of JD. That said, what I hear you saying (and from the frustration in your voice) is that Dingle wanted very much to stay in his heart, but a combination of other factors (confidence in the team and coaches, likelihood to make the NCAAs, preparation for NBA, role on the team, visibility at the next level, competition, or treatment of athletics by the universities) were key reasons. You were explicit that NIL wasn't a real factor, though I think we are all happy for him to benefit from that as much as possible. You've also been vocal that the coaching staff isn't doing all of the right things on recruiting. While this year's recruiting class looks improved, the overall track record definitely supports your view. While it seems implicit that you would like to see a coaching change, what would you recommend to the current coaching staff to turn the program into the one we think the University, players, and fans (us) deserve? I'm thinking of specific strategies and areas of overhaul in terms of recruiting, game strategy, program, etc. within the realities of the Ivy League. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-02-23 08:07 PM - Post#356108
In response to the comment about lack of talent around him, it's not about whether he respects his team-mates. It's about whether he thinks he is in a position to win the league overall. He may see some shortcoming somewhere. What else does he have to accomplish at Penn? Scoring records? I doubt that was his motivation in the least. He's accomplished everything else basketball-wise. I still hope he can get his degree too. Great Quaker. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-02-23 08:28 PM - Post#356111
Again, if NBA scouts and agents have told him he has to demonstrate he can put up numbers at a higher level, winning the Ivies is wholly irrelevant. The problem this year had nothing to do with talent level. We had the talent to be up 17 at Princeton at halftime and blew games with leads at Cornell and Dartmouth. We should have won the League. Blaming it on talent level is just false. Blaming it on getting outcoached is far more realistic, and may have contributed to his decision. Still, if the reason is to display his talent to the NBA by playing high level competition, the talent level is just not a factor in his decision. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-03-23 12:13 AM - Post#356113
I wasn't saying it was necessarily talent. Talent, coaching, whatever. I'm just saying that he might not have wanted to bet his last year on us winning the league. Even if he saw thought we have the best team next year, it's still a big bet - because of the Ivy tournament. There is enough league parity to make that a risky bet. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-03-23 07:18 AM - Post#356115
I don't think his decision had much to do with making the NCAA tournament--it's about making the NBA. He has been advised to show his talent at a higher level of competition over a season. I'm sure he wants to play in the NCAA's but I don't think that was the basis for this move. |
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Condor PhD Student Posts 1888 |
05-03-23 08:02 AM - Post#356117
There are 30 teams in the NBA. That means that 60 players get drafted with about 50 from college. Tosan went to the sweet 16, was clearly the only possible NBA caliber player on his team, and he is ranked 95 according to The Athletic draft rankings . Dingle is not in the top 100. The level of play in the Ivy’s has improved from top to bottom. However, if an NBA team wants to roll the dice on Dingle, it will be much easier to evaluate that risk if he is playing for a team such as Kentucky rather than Penn. For that matter, it would be easier for the posters on this board to make that call. I think there is a pathway to the NBA if Jordan stays at Penn. However, it probably isn’t through the draft. For that reason, one really can’t blame Jordan for making this decision or anyone else. |
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10Q Professor Posts 23480 |
05-03-23 10:53 AM - Post#356118
No one is blaming Jordan. We can all basically blame our rinky-dink program. |
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Condor PhD Student Posts 1888 |
05-03-23 11:25 AM - Post#356119
My point is that unless you can and want to change all the Ivy rules that limit admissions, blaming the player, coach, or anyone else isn't going to change the impact of the transfer portal. Ivy BB loses with this just as it did with at-large bids, our self-imposed AI, no scholarships, etc. Time will tell, but it would not surprise me if the Ivy's never get another Sweet 16 run again. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-03-23 12:28 PM - Post#356120
Time will tell, but it would not surprise me if the Ivy's never get another Sweet 16 run again. This exact thing has been said many times after March 2010 and prior to March 2023. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-03-23 12:28 PM - Post#356121
Is the transfer portal always going to be like this, or did the pandemic transfer and eligibility exemptions make this an unusually active period? |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-03-23 12:36 PM - Post#356122
Again, if NBA scouts and agents have told him he has to demonstrate he can put up numbers at a higher level, winning the Ivies is wholly irrelevant. Based on all things I have heard this is very much the leading reason JD is transferring. All the other reasons cited play a part, but a distant part relative to this. Consider the timing. If NIL was a factor he would have left last year. According to my sources, he was coming back as of March. He declared for the draft, which allows NBA personnel and scouts to provide feedback and puts him on their radar. He waits until the end of the portal window to add his name (which likely means his destination options were pre arranged to include 1 or 2 schools). This was a surprise to the coaches as I understand it. While he may have considered this option previously or was contemplating it this year, he clearly got information about his NBA potential after declaring that pushed him over the edge to enter the portal. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-03-23 12:51 PM - Post#356123
Is the transfer portal always going to be like this, or did the pandemic transfer and eligibility exemptions make this an unusually active period? It's here to stay. The portal was active well before Covid. It started in October of 2018 as a centralized platform for transfers and schools. Prior to this it was tough for players to get their name out. They had to get permission to transfer and then a compliance officer would have to reach out to all schools the player had interest in. It was burdensome and inefficient. The portal eliminated all that process. Now a player can enter and their risk is the school they are attending can pull their scholarship at the end of that term if they decide not to transfer. Only coaches and administrators have access to the portal and any player can enter without telling their coach. Once a player tells their schools compliance officer they want to transfer, the name has to be entered within 48 hours at which point any coach can contact that player. Here is how the D1 Basketball transfer list has grown: Prior to the portal there was between 400-600 transfers on average. 2018: 866 2019: 987 2020: 1,002 2021: 1,711 2022: 1,761 2023: 1,639 so far with portal closing May 11 |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-03-23 02:18 PM - Post#356124
But during the pandemic, didn't they waive the need to sit out a year and grant players an extra year of eligibility? Might that be a significant contributor to the number of transfers from 2019 to now? I don't know whether those will persist. I was thinking that might increase the There may be more players who opt to spend the extra year at a different school. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-03-23 02:21 PM - Post#356125
The trend don 400-1,000 all happened pre pandemic. Then it jumped to 1,700. It could settle back down but the trend, even from non covid transfers is clear. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
05-03-23 02:43 PM - Post#356126
Would also be interesting to see a breakout of grad transfers vs. all other transfers. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-03-23 04:56 PM - Post#356127
About 30% are graduate transfers. Don't have the 2023 numbers obviously: 2021: 1,198 transfers (1,700 entered portal) 815 Undergrad, 383 graduate transfers 2022: 1,123 transfers (over 1,700 in portal) 786 undergrad, 337 graduate 2023 will probably exceed the numbers for those entering portal. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-03-23 06:39 PM - Post#356129
By the way, the percentages of Graduate transfer to Undergrad transfer (30-31%) is true of all Div 1 transfers in all sports, not just basketball. And roughly 30% of those who enter the transfer portal don't end up at a new school. Here is the data for anyone interested: https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2022/4/25/tran sfer-por... |
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JDP Masters Student Posts 581 |
05-03-23 09:10 PM - Post#356130
Another factor to consider is that in April 2021 the NCAA allowed athletes in all sports to transfer once without sitting a season. Immediate eligibility and NIL enticements have forever changed the paradigm of college athletics. I do not believe any school should expect that its top players will remain for four years unless some party can match any NIL offer away. Mid majors who benefit from developing senior laden classes, likely see that phenomenon disappear as the overlooked 1-2 star kids that develop into 4-5 star kids are at risk of being poached. The Ivies are at a further disadvantage as the student-athlete may go from having to pay something, to being on scholarship and getting NIL revenue that does not offset against any need based aid. |
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Condor PhD Student Posts 1888 |
05-04-23 09:08 AM - Post#356138
Transfer portal rankings by CBS sports: 14. Jordan Dingle Old school: Penn Dingle led the Ivy League in scoring by nearly five points per game for a Penn squad that finished third in the league. This past season, the 6-3 guard totaled 23.4 points per contest on 46.4% shooting, which included a 35.6% mark from beyond the arc. Over three years of competition, he performed well against the likes of Alabama, Providence, Arizona, Villanova, Florida State and Missouri. In eight career games against power conference opposition, Dingle is averaging 21.9 points on 46.8% shooting and 44.4% 3-point shooting. That suggests he's got what it takes to be a big-time contributor for a high-major program. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
05-04-23 09:42 AM - Post#356139
Surprising that they don't note his ability to frequently get to the line and hit his FTs, which was a quality he did not possess when first arriving at Penn. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-04-23 01:54 PM - Post#356142
ESPN's rankings of the transfer portal. Dingle #11 overall, and #2 uncommitted. https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/insid... |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
05-04-23 02:46 PM - Post#356143
Mid-majors that are not Ivies have flourished through the portal era, e.g. San Diego State, a senior-laden team. Lots of good P5 guys who aren’t happy for one reason or another are in there, and mid-to-mid transfers are common. One impact is that it’s hard to keep talented guys who aren’t playing much. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-04-23 03:21 PM - Post#356144
Yeah, I noted that in an earlier thread. The real losers are the minor conference teams (like your St Peters of the world) who will only keep stars if they suddenly get good together in a single season. Then they'll all transfer up. But high mid-majors get the Power conference guys who aren't satisfied with their playing time. The Ivies won't lose many because only the unicorns like Dingle will choose to go elsewhere (unless their eligibility is up in the Ivies) over getting the Ivy degree. |
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13otto Masters Student Posts 779 
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 05-04-23 05:20 PM - Post#356146
And roughly 30% of those who enter the transfer portal don't end up at a new school. So you're saying there's a 30% chance that Dingle doesn't end up at a new school...
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13otto Masters Student Posts 779
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05-04-23 05:30 PM - Post#356147
This was a surprise to the coaches as I understand it. As someone with no inside info, that was my thought when I saw that we are scheduled to go to Houston and Auburn over New Year's. Scheduling those teams to help JD showcase his talents against high major programs would make sense. Without Jordan, not so much.
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
05-05-23 05:59 AM - Post#356153
Games against P5 schools are nothing new and have zero to do with having someone like Dingle on the team. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-05-23 01:21 PM - Post#356160
St John's and Pitino are putting on the full court press for Dingle. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
05-05-23 02:05 PM - Post#356162
Speaking of which, several times a week I drive southbound on I-95 in Westchester, and right by one of the New Rochelle exits, there is an enormous billboard by St. John's welcoming Pitino. For those not in the know, Iona is in New Rochelle. I always crack up. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-05-23 02:06 PM - Post#356163
An article on the potential landing spots for Dingle. https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Colle ge-bask... The article does worry me a bit - if these are his most likely destinations. I think his best outcome would include a lot of playing time and also the right team role to showcase his skills. I don't know much about the other teams, but some don't look like ideal fits. I initially was a bit negative on St. Johns, as JD doesn't remind me of the prototype Pitino player. JD plays at a very measured pace. I think of Pitino teams as playing frenetic offense and defense, and having a lot of ball possession and sharpshooting players. The idea of Pitino is growing on me though. First, St. Johns may have more playing time. Second, Pitino teams do create a lot of spacing and the type of shot or dribble-drive openings that Dingle might be able to use. It also might force Dingle to develop parts of his game which could help his NBA development. Finally, I *think* he was from New York, so he should have friends and family support nearby (nychoops?). Even if St. Johns isn't a great team next year, there will be plenty of eyes and attention for the team. |
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W. PhD Student Posts 1173 |
05-05-23 03:17 PM - Post#356166
Yeah I think he grew up in Valley Stream (Long Island), which is about eight miles from the St. John's campus. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-05-23 03:38 PM - Post#356167
So you’re saying there’s a chance . . .. Curious what the numbers are up around the top of the list. And coming from a mid major looking to go higher. As I’ve said, I think Dingle needs to be careful. But he shouldn’t have any problem finding suitors. He’ll have choices, so I find it hard to imagine he doesn’t find a fit. |
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Quake Show Junior Posts 218 |
05-05-23 04:38 PM - Post#356168
As someone with no inside info, that was my thought when I saw that we are scheduled to go to Houston and Auburn over New Year's. Scheduling those teams to help JD showcase his talents against high major programs would make sense. Without Jordan, not so much. If Dingle ends up at high major school, it would be considerate and shrewd of the coaching staff to schedule a game against them at the Palestra so that JD can get his sendoff from the Penn faithful, and so that we can finally get a high major on its court that isn't here to play Penn State. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
05-07-23 08:21 PM - Post#356193
Haven't weighed in on this but posted something about a month ago wondering what was going on and if he was staying. Of course he was I was told. This seems the best decision for Jordan to increase his odds of eventually making the NBA. Regardless of the talent level surrounding him at Penn the level of competition is not as high as in the Power Five and the Ivy is still a one bid league despite the Princeton run this year. Good luck to Jordan and next men up. Some of those guys who didn't play much last year will have their chance. Maybe they should have played more last season but we will see what happens. |
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andybech Freshman Posts 83 |
05-08-23 03:14 PM - Post#356201
I wonder if Jordan realizes his NBA chances are a longshot no matter where he plays, but a year of big time basketball with an NIL deal might not be the worst thing for him regardless of what happens at the next level. |
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hoopsfan Masters Student Posts 647 |
05-08-23 03:27 PM - Post#356202
https://www.zagsblog.com/2023/05/08/penn-trans fer-... |
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nychoops Junior Posts 244 |
05-10-23 09:06 AM - Post#356218
Jordan is down to 2 schools. He won't be staying in draft. I'll have some unpopular things to say once this settles in |
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tioga Freshman Posts 57 |
05-10-23 12:12 PM - Post#356224
Why is that necessary? What do you intend to accomplish? |
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3060 |
05-10-23 12:54 PM - Post#356225
nychoops has always been & continues to be a respectful voice in this forum, supporting student-athletes and sharing honest views about the state of the program. Compared to most people on the board, nychoops appears to have first-hand knowledge from interactions with student-athletes, which makes the comments more relevant. I, for one, am eager to hear those thoughts whenever the time is appropriate. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-10-23 01:04 PM - Post#356226
When his name didn't appear on the combine invite list or the G League list, it was a foregone conclusion he would withdraw. St John's is one of the two schools. The other is probably from the list we have seen/heard (Indiana, Kentucky, Miami). If he is transferring so he can play in the NCAA tournament and against HM competition for a possible NBA run in a year, the only two choices should be Kentucky or Miami. St Johns is a rebuild (though it will happen fast) and Indiana, though it's B10, doesn't seem like a good fit for JD's style. I haven't seen anywhere that Kentucky is pursuing any transfers but Dingle's father has the Calipari connection. I for one welcome NYCHoops feedback. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-10-23 02:49 PM - Post#356232
I was on a Penn athletics call yesterday for a team that is definitely in the thick of Ivy championships. The coach said that to combat HYP brand and financial advantages, the coaching staff knows it needs to work harder than any other coaching staff. From nychoops' past posts, I think this may be part of the comments from a recruiting standpoint. Despite fine people and professional coaching, the team may not be outworking, outsmarting, and outhustling the rest. I suspect there's more here than normal too, in terms of the handling specifically of Dingle. Nychoops sounds a bit more chaffed than usual and he's understandably quite protective of Dingle. Nychoops, not trying to bait you. Just speculating. 
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
05-10-23 03:41 PM - Post#356235
I don't think any of us would be upset with nychoops' report, given all of the criticism on this board about pretty much every aspect of the Penn basketball program. And we are all rooting for Jordan Dingle. Penn was fortunate to have him. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-10-23 04:40 PM - Post#356237
nychoops has always had informed opinions. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
05-10-23 05:21 PM - Post#356238
there's no guess here, it's been obvious for a while. The team doesn't want to recruit hard and you all enable them with no accountability. It's your fault. |
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Cvonvorys Postdoc Posts 4508 
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05-10-23 06:29 PM - Post#356240
Dude… How is it my fault? I’ve stopped going to games (5-6 per year was usual) and I’ve stopped contributing to Annual Giving, repeatedly citing my displeasure with the Men’s Basketball program. No one cares about nasty letters from a guy who donates $100 bucks a year and pays a couple hundred bucks in tickets and food. Please let me know what you’ve done to improve the state of Penn Men’s Basketball, and I do so hope it’s more than just your hysterical rants on this board… |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-10-23 06:31 PM - Post#356241
Certainly agree that nychoops is informed, and I think his intent is to be respectful. My concern with the view (and why I wonder if, while informed, it isn’t exactly what Jordan would say) is that it seems to reflect poorly on the other kids on the team. So while it may be supportive of Jordan, and it may be in line with the view of most of the alumni on the board, I’m not sure it is supportive of the kids remaining on the team. They’re probably not sitting around thinking, man, if only we had better players than me, Jordan would still be here! |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3619 
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05-10-23 06:46 PM - Post#356242
Certainly agree that nychoops is informed, and I think his intent is to be respectful. My concern with the view (and why I wonder if, while informed, it isn’t exactly what Jordan would say) is that it seems to reflect poorly on the other kids on the team. So while it may be supportive of Jordan, and it may be in line with the view of most of the alumni on the board, I’m not sure it is supportive of the kids remaining on the team. They’re probably not sitting around thinking, man, if only we had better players than me, Jordan would still be here! I've been pretty clear about how I view the program's progress and trajectory as a fan and don't want to rehash it (two word summary is, not great). I've also always aimed to be respectful even when I disagree pretty strongly with some takes posted here. I think the majority of us have also been very respectful and thankful to all the players past and present that represent Penn. I'm not here to criticize any specific college kid trying to do their best for their school. With that said, we are fans of a sporting team and we want them to WIN. If not, why the heck would we spend so much time caring? If we aren't going to compete to win championships and instead want to accept mediocrity, myself and others will continue to fade away because frankly that would be a waste of my time. Not to mention, just about 0 new fans are being created right now. Mediocrity doesn't create new fans. This isn't my 5 year olds soccer league, every team does not get a trophy at the end of the season. After Jordan makes his choice, I and many others want to hear the reality of the situation and welcome nychoops comments. He is not criticizing the kids still here. They are here to do their best, they did not construct the roster, they did not recruit the roster. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-10-23 07:51 PM - Post#356244
I'll have to wait for nychoops' comments, but it won't surprise me in the least if a significant part of Jordan's discouragment was the in-game coaching. He saw other teams work plays when we played isolation and other teams making adjustments at halftime and beating us. I just wonder whether he would have left if we did win the championship, which we clearly should have done. But we'll know his thoughts pretty soon. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304 
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05-10-23 09:43 PM - Post#356246
“With that said, we are fans of a sporting team and we want them to WIN. If not, why the heck would we spend so much time caring? If we aren't going to compete to win championships and instead want to accept mediocrity, myself and others will continue to fade away because frankly that would be a waste of my time. Not to mention, just about 0 new fans are being created right now. Mediocrity doesn't create new fans.” This is what worries me. I doubt many of us would be here if Penn had been a dwarf when we were in school. Who is going to care about Penn hoops in 20 years? The alums on campus now? The students who stopped caring a decade ago? The city with no big5? Only winning can keep the Palestra site from becoming another overpriced dormitory. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-10-23 10:33 PM - Post#356247
It’s the last part about recruiting that troubles me. The take seems to be: it’s not about you, it’s about the recruiting. But every one of those kids was told by those very same coaches some variation of you are the player we want. The players didn’t recruit the roster, but these are the kids that the coaches chose. I don’t think you can separate the two. On the other stuff we all agree. The debate is always about how you get back to the top of the league. I don’t want to be mediocre any more than you do. |
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Cvonvorys Postdoc Posts 4508
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05-10-23 11:08 PM - Post#356250
Steve Danley… if you still peruse this board, could you please weigh in on what Penn recruits are told… |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
05-10-23 11:18 PM - Post#356251
and yet you continually absolve steve and staff of any responsibility. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
05-11-23 01:03 AM - Post#356254
It’s the last part about recruiting that troubles me. The take seems to be: it’s not about you, it’s about the recruiting. But every one of those kids was told by those very same coaches some variation of you are the player we want. The players didn’t recruit the roster, but these are the kids that the coaches chose. I don’t think you can separate the two. On the other stuff we all agree. The debate is always about how you get back to the top of the league. I don’t want to be mediocre any more than you do. If this is what the recruits are hearing, then the next thing to look at is player development. That's on the coaching staff. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-11-23 10:05 AM - Post#356259
I’d just say that my take isn’t as draconian as your’s. Not my intent to absolve anyone of anything. At a certain point, you are what your record says you are. We’re better than where we were under the prior two coaches. We’re not where we’d like to be. I’m sure the coaches feel the same way about where we are. |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3619
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05-11-23 01:08 PM - Post#356261
It’s the last part about recruiting that troubles me. The take seems to be: it’s not about you, it’s about the recruiting. But every one of those kids was told by those very same coaches some variation of you are the player we want. The players didn’t recruit the roster, but these are the kids that the coaches chose. I don’t think you can separate the two. On the other stuff we all agree. The debate is always about how you get back to the top of the league. I don’t want to be mediocre any more than you do. We've literally discussed recruiting on this board since as long as it has existed, in fact, since before it existed. We certainly talked about it with Glen Miller and Jerome Allen, but they had a slew of other problems beyond recruiting. Yet for some reason, because Steve is a nice guy, you seem unable to address the elephant on the board (or in this case, apparently don't even want to hear about the elephant on the board from a trusted source?). I say this genuinely, I do think from outside looking in that Steve is a very good guy, great representative of Penn, etc. and I'll be damned if I didn't wish he was a good recruiter as well. That would be perfect situation for Penn, but unfortunately the results speak to the reality. Ask anyone who has followed Penn Basketball Recruiting on the board what they think, the pattern has been clear throughout. The staff is excellent at identifying quality recruits early, but is generally terrible at closing the sale (and ultimately that is what recruiting is). It is extremely, extremely rare that they identify a top recruit early and get them to commit. In some of these years recruiting, they've not only had to go to plan B, but to plan C and beyond (or no recruit at all). This isn't me making it up, this is the reality anyone who follows can observe based on the timing of offers, commitments, and/or lack of commitments (especially when you look at position needs and very small classes). This doesn't mean they haven't recruited some excellent players, they have, but not consistently and not with enough depth to have a single top 100 team in 7 seasons. I like the potential of the incoming class, but you have to string multiple quality classes together to be a championship, top 100 team. Look back... this coaching staff has been unable to string together even back to back deep/quality classes. This is why our all time leading scorer AJ, had only one championship and a best 125 ranked team and why Dingle, who would have broken that record, had no championships and a best 126 ranked team. I don't know what nychoops is going to say, I have some guesses, but even if what he says is different than what I think is happening, I want to hear it and I'd be happy to be proven wrong. End of the day, what we know is that Penn basketball simply isn't good enough. That means recruiting, player development, and/or strategy/in-game coaching is subpar, right? Regardless, all of these are the responsibility of the coaching staff. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-11-23 04:21 PM - Post#356262
Look, it's hard to dispute anything you've all said. I've been hoping for years that Steve D. was a few recruits away from a breakthrough because he seems to be a great guy. This year's class is a possible sign of improvement, but it's obviously not fair to point to one year as a trend - plus we don't know at this point how good the class will actually be. He's had enough time to judge him by his own track record. The next few years don't look great. Our team has peaked at middle of the league. Contrary to others, I think he has historically been a pretty good game coach. I wasn't impressed this year, but I'm assuming that Steve D. hasn't lost his ability to strategize. I don't think he's a great defensive coach period. That creates volatility in team performance, which makes it hard to win a conference. He's pretty good at player development. He runs a pretty tight ship. Recruiting seems to be our most limiting factor. I accept nychoops' past criticism on recruiting as truth, at least from the datapoints he has. There's a chance that he didn't know the full story on why Penn didn't recruit certain players hard enough, but clearly the recruiting end results haven't been that great. We lose a lot of other recruits to other teams in-conference, and none of his classes have been excellent. His best class was built from the pipeline of Jerome Allen's recruiting. I just am a bit jaded and tired by NCAA sports these days to do more than support the team, hope they represent the school well, and hope the students have great school and life learning experiences. I'm not an apologist. I am not dismissing any of the criticisms or frustration. But college sports has gotten so warped and that the price of winning now is in conflict with what I hope for student athletes. I'm also not a fan of NIL. I don't think it's right to deny athletes the right to make money, but I also think college sports should be amateur. I don't get why it is really supportive of a University's mission anymore to create a P5 atmosphere around athletics, recruiting, and winning. Many student athletes will now make more than any faculty at their schools. I described in a previous post that P5 coaches are now dealing with kids who are making millions. They are much harder to coach, as they make much more than their assistant coaches. Let them develop in semi-pro leagues instead of college. It's just not worth my time to scream anymore for people to be fired. I'll be fine if they fire the staff, and I'll be fine if they don't. Neither outcome will make me or any of us a better person. If our life satisfaction depends on it, be worried. Go Quakers. |
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nychoops Junior Posts 244 |
05-12-23 08:57 AM - Post#356264
Jordan will announce he's playing at St John's today. Once it settles in I'll say my peace next week. But it's important for me to say I apologize profusely if any of my post at anytime was perceived as a dig to any of the kids who play/played for Penn. To be able to play at this level both athletically and academically is beyond my imagination and I have the utmost respect for each and every one of them. The men and women who do so shoujd be respected. If anything I've said or will say in contrary to that statement it's unintentional |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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05-12-23 09:13 AM - Post#356265
Well, that means I will be following St Johns hoops for the first time in decades. Pitino and his army of transfers are going to be a very interesting watch. Jordan should see lots of minutes assuming he stays healthy. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-12-23 09:46 AM - Post#356266
https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/st-johns-l ands-explo... |
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Penn90 Masters Student Posts 575 
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05-12-23 09:47 AM - Post#356267
I guess JD was really impressed when Iona crushed Penn
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3060 |
05-12-23 10:17 AM - Post#356269
While waiting for your thoughtful comments next week, do you know if Jordan is going to be graduating from Penn on Monday or this summer, or will he be getting his undergraduate diploma from St. John's? |
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3060 |
05-12-23 10:20 AM - Post#356270
https://redstormsports.com/news/2023/5/12/mens-b as... "Really excited to have Jordan Dingle joining the Red Storm," said Pitino. "His goals are plain and simple. As a loyal New Yorker, help bring back St. John's to basketball royalty, and then become a [NBA] First Round draft choice. I'm all in on making that happen." |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
05-12-23 10:46 AM - Post#356271
good luck to jordan |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2818 |
05-12-23 11:02 AM - Post#356272
As much as I dislike Philadelphia, trading a Penn degree for a year a St. Johns playing for Rick Pitino seems like a poor idea. I can’t see how his NBA chances will be any greater playing among a group of other NBA hopefuls trying to showcase themselves than leading Penn to a possible Ivy Championship. But, good luck, Jordan. Penn will be a lot worse without you. |
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Tiger69 Postdoc Posts 2818 |
05-12-23 11:03 AM - Post#356273
As much as I dislike Philadelphia, trading a Penn degree for a year a St. Johns playing for Rick Pitino seems like a poor idea. I can’t see how his NBA chances will be any greater playing among a group of other NBA hopefuls trying to showcase themselves than leading Penn to a possible Ivy Championship. But, good luck, Jordan. Penn will be a lot worse without you. |
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Penn7277 PhD Student Posts 1365 |
05-12-23 12:36 PM - Post#356276
Could Jordan transfer credits back from St. Johns to Penn and get a Penn degree? |
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3060 |
05-12-23 01:41 PM - Post#356277
Penn, like many universities, allows credits from approved classes at an accredited school, but the student would have to be enrolled at Penn. This is what happens when a student does a GenEd or intro level class at a local school during the summer or winter break, as well as a domestic exchange or study abroad program. Would it be possible for Jordan to be enrolled at Penn, while taking classes at St. John's, like a domestic exchange-type situation? https://catalog.upenn.edu/undergraduate/policie s-p... https://admissions.upenn.edu/admissions-and-financ ... |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-12-23 01:48 PM - Post#356278
I don't think he can play for St Johns unless enrolled there as a full time student. But what he can do is what athletes have done for eons---1st semester take the smallest acceptable class load with easy classes. 2nd semester---don't worry about going to class up there, take a few incompletes the 2nd semester and don't graduate. Then, when he is done with whatever he can do in pro ball, return to Penn for his diploma. |
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3060 |
05-12-23 02:14 PM - Post#356279
Thanks for that info. That seems like an allowable & transactional plan. (One of the more creative plans was Dartmouth's Brendan Barry. He graduated in December of 2020, then transferred to Temple as a grad student for the spring semester. Then, he transferred back to Dartmouth as a grad student for 2022-2023.) On the SJU website, Jordan is listed as a junior on the 2023-2024 roster while all of the other transfers are listed as one year above what they were in 2022-2023. It seems like SJU's IT people made a simple mistake. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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05-12-23 02:38 PM - Post#356280
I'm surprised at how much attention Jordan's commitment is getting in the national sports media. It's everywhere. |
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Penn90 Masters Student Posts 575
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05-12-23 02:48 PM - Post#356282
It just underscores what a huge debacle this is for Donahue and Penn
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-12-23 03:27 PM - Post#356283
When a guy like Pitino, who forced out a class of recruits from the prior coach and said he was going to re-make the team into championship contenders makes his first major transfer portal pickup Dingle, that's major news. We all know that this is a debacle, but unlike some others here, I don't think that Donahue could have done anything about it. If scouts and advisors told him he needed to play at a higher level, what could we have done? ....Other than win last year, as we should have done. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
05-12-23 03:45 PM - Post#356284
Great move for Jordan. He will have an excellent coach in Pitino. Who seems like a total loser as a human but that won't matter to Jordan in a year there. I see they also got Naheem Alleyne also. More of a 3 and D guy. Third Power Five school for him in three years. It's a brave new world for these guys. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
05-12-23 03:48 PM - Post#356285
When a guy like Pitino, who forced out a class of recruits from the prior coach and said he was going to re-make the team into championship contenders makes his first major transfer portal pickup Dingle, that's major news. We all know that this is a debacle, but unlike some others here, I don't think that Donahue could have done anything about it. If scouts and advisors told him he needed to play at a higher level, what could we have done? ....Other than win last year, as we should have done. That's where I am at also. He may say some things about the coaching or recruiting but if so think he is just filling in reasons I believe since he previously made a commitment to the school. I would have to think it's 90 percent about being NBA ready. It's a great move to play in the Power 5 Big East with an experienced winning coach. I will follow St. Johns this year. |
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
05-12-23 05:53 PM - Post#356287
He was second leading scorer in all of Division 1, turns out people notice such things. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-12-23 06:49 PM - Post#356289
Probably more importantly he averaged 21 ppg against P5 schools he played against. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277 
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05-13-23 06:48 AM - Post#356290
To be able to play at this level both athletically and academically is beyond my imagination and I have the utmost respect for each and every one of them. Best summary of why I love Ivy basketball. |
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slane Freshman Posts 72 |
05-13-23 11:10 AM - Post#356293
The question isn’t whether Jordan as a junior or a senior, the question is whether he has 1 or 2 years of eligibility left at St Johns. All NCAA Division 1 athletes from 2021 were granted an extra (5th) year of COVID eligibility by the NCAA. However since Max and Jordan withdrew from school for the 2020-2021 academic year to preserve their Ivy eligibility, it is unclear whether athletes who took the COVID year off from school entirely are entitled to the 5th year that athletes who played during 20-21 received. It appears that our lacrosse seniors who took a single semester off during 20-21 (and then took the first semester of 22-23 off are entitled to the 5th NCAA year. Max and Jordan however took the entire COVID year off and may not be getting that 5th year. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-13-23 11:35 AM - Post#356294
Mike — I think my point has gotten a little lost here. There is nothing wrong with you, or nychoops, or Jeff, or anyone else criticizing the recruiting. What I was reacting to was connecting Jordan’s personal opinions to that. I find it hard to believe that is where he is on it, again because of the reflection on his teammates. And coming from him, it would have a very different (and far more personal) tenor. Jordan would have every right to say it as well, but I would be very surprised if he personally thought it (and if he did think it, I’d be very surprised if he would say it, or want it connected directly to him). That’s it. |
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SteveDanley Sophomore Posts 102 |
05-14-23 09:20 PM - Post#356306
@cvonvorys appreciate the shout out -- though it's worth noting I'm now 16 years out, there's been multiple coaching changes, and I haven't really been close with a guy on the team since Fran Dougherty left. I'm getting old with everyone else. I wouldn't put much weight into anything players are told during recruitment -- you pretty much have to tell guys they're a top choice to get guys to come. I had schools tell me I was their #1 big, then never offer. Penn was clear I was a prioritized recruit -- though in hindsight part of that was likely my AI. Apparently Coach Duke (who I adore) used to say "love danley, but you could lock him alone in the gym with a ball and he still wouldn't score" while they were recruiting me. I had no idea they were also recruiting Pettinella and we basically competed for minutes until he transferred -- and they thought Zoller was a 3. Recruiting is a weird thing. I'd be very surprised if Penn didn't have higher ranked recruits on their board that the staff is missing on. That doesn't mean they don't like the guys they get -- just that in an ideal class those guys might be the 3rd or 4th guy and there'd be more guys like AJ (highly recruited, ready to contribute early). That's the case for almost every coaching staff everywhere, I think. Maybe this staff is high on the players coming in -- but I, personally, don't think we have brought in enough difference-makers. I can't imagine that's a super hot take. But I'm by no means an insider these days. I say hi to the staff when I'm around, and catch a few games (in person or ESPN+). Get along well with them all and want to see them win. I will say this -- I (again with no inside info) thought it likely Dingle would leave from the start of the season. Mostly just because the NIL and Europe money is so good for top guys -- and it's so common for guys to move (I've just lived through the Hunter Dickenson attention -- he's a DeMatha guy, where I'm a little more connected). But also because everyone dreams of playing in the tourney/Final Four -- you only get a few bites at that apple. A million opportunities in my life (professionally, personally) that I can fail at or miss, then just get back up and try again -- but I played (poorly) in three NCAA losses and those were the only shots I'd ever get. It's just a unique thing. I hope Dingle has a fun run with St. Johns, that Penn treats him right if he tries to find a way to get a degree, and that his decisions work out financially over the short and long run. |
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tioga Freshman Posts 57 |
05-14-23 09:43 PM - Post#356307
Thank you, Steve, for bringing a dose of reality to this discussion. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-15-23 02:44 PM - Post#356316
Thanks for the thoughts. Great insights as always (including fascinating tidbits re recruiting your year). No idea if you were reading the board as a player (I kind of hope not!), but we had a lot of discussion about Pettinella’s ultimate transfer, etc. There’s always somebody who isn’t playing much that the board insists should play more. Right now it’s Eddie Holland. For a little while, it was Pettinella. Always wondered whether the staff just knew more than we did about what they had in Zoller and kept it to themselves, or whether things developed differently from what even they expected. So interesting they thought he was a 3 like everybody else did. |
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borschtbelt Freshman Posts 60 |
05-15-23 03:04 PM - Post#356317
Zoller--they knew. Unless I am mixing up two events, I ran into Dunphy in the end zone of a football game. The Wisconsin (I think) bball game followed. I think it was Zoller's first game. Dunphy said to me, "You're going to love this guy." Sorry if my memory placed events out of sequence. |
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SteveDanley Sophomore Posts 102 |
05-16-23 12:52 PM - Post#356323
As far as guys not playing, one of the bizarre dynamics of college basketball is that 1) assistants and the head coach often have "their guys" with the skill sets they prioritize. For Dunph, it was toughness, not turning the ball over, decision-making. Coach J tended to value athletes a little higher. Duke was the offensive coordinator and wanted more shooters playing. Obviously, head coaches matter the most -- and assistants often advocate for their guys (who are often guys they saw potential in and recruited). 2) When you see a guy sitting, it probably means your take on the player is more aligned with the assistant that recruited him and that you value what he does well. There's normally other flaws (I'm not going to get into specific flaws of teammates, but I have some *stories* for the real die-hards if you ever catch me out over a beer). 3) The best players, of course, transcend all this. But I'm not sure folks realize how small the gap in role players is at the college hoops level. My take is that often the difference between your 4th and as low as 10th or 12th guy is quite marginal -- it depends on situation, opportunity, fit, and some coincidence (did you hit a few shots at a high leverage time? Did a particular assistant love your game?). If you're not being asked to carry the team, there are a lot of guys who can succeed in the right situation, but aren't good enough to succeed in any situation. This is more obvious in pickup and practice -- hard to see in games where bench players play very limited roles if they're not regularly in the rotation. That's why a guy like Pettinella (who was clearly faster, stronger, and a better finisher than me) could start (!) at UVA, and struggled to find a regular role for us. They valued his skills, whereas Dunph tended to default to mine (better passer, fit better in offense, better communicator on D etc). 4) In my opinion, the best coaches are the ones who can *imagine* the ways a particular player would succeed -- then build up and create those circumstances. The far more common practice is to try to force role players into already-created archetypes by trying to get them to improve on their weaknesses. This is another reason guys sit -- because the coach thinks he needs a specific thing from the 4th or 5th guy on the floor, and doesn't think a player provides that thing. |
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penn92 Freshman Posts 19 |
05-16-23 04:34 PM - Post#356326
Steve - great insights, thanks for taking time to share. I particularly appreciate point 4 - a leadership lesson that applies far beyond just basketball. In fact there's a whole lot of broad leadership and team-building points throughout what you've written here. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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05-16-23 05:44 PM - Post#356327
Let me add to that. The best coaches in nearly all the major sports (baseball is a different animal altogether) fit their 'systems' around the skills and styles of the players they have - and not the other way around; that said - it's not the just the combinations you have out there; but the way they work together. Coaches always look for system fits, but roster building at the collegiate level is even more complex because the player you recruit is often not the player you end up with after 4 years of coaching and physical maturity. Anyway, thanks Steve, as always for the player perspective. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-20-23 02:08 PM - Post#356372
One interesting thing about the criticisms of Steve’s offense with Dingle is that before Dingle got here, I think everyone would have described Steve as an offensive system coach. Fairly even scoring, established sets, motion offense, specific spots where guys get the ball and shoot the ball. Based on the rest of his career, the “let Jordan go to work” offense would appear to be an approach that was based on having Jordan. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
05-20-23 06:41 PM - Post#356378
I would tend to agree with that characterization of SD as a system coach. It will be interesting to see what next season's offense looks like. My guess is that a fair amount of it will run through Spinoso, either at the high post or on the low block. I think Holland and Thrower could be slasher types, if the spacing is good. Slajchert and Martz will hopefully have room to operate as well. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-22-23 02:15 AM - Post#356394
I would agree. I think that SD's system tended to work best with great passers and shooters. It works that much better if those roles include the big men. Donahue really did develop Max Rothschild and AJ Brodeur. I really think Mike Wang could have become a good SD player, but his health was a limiting factor. He was showing all around good passing, shooting, and rebounding for a while. We all know that we haven't recruited players that fit this mold very well. A peak for our team was having Brodeur, Rothschild, Betley, and Wood on the same time. Those were four players who had a good mix of passing and shooting for their position. There are tons of players who were good but not specifically in that way. Matt Howard, Devon Goodman, Antonio Woods, Tyler Hamilton, Jake Silpe, Eddie Scott, Jelani Williams, etc. They were all good for the team, but weren't a good enough fit for the system to help us stand out from the league. On last year's team, our most assists came from Spinoso at 3.1 mpg. We weren't a bad 3 point shooting team, but our best 3FG% shooters were low usage (Smith, Holland, and Moshkovitz). Our highest usage 3pt shooters were Dingle and Slajchert at around 35% 3FG%. Only Martz shot with a high percentage and reasonable usage. In sum, I'd agree with the point. Without passing and a bevy of shooters, we relied on Dingle's all around game to compete. He was almost good enough to get us there. Next year, I'd like to see Smith and Holland out there more and shooting more. I'd like to see Slajchert shooting a much higher percentage. I'd like to see Ubochi strong on the glass and still able to pass from the post. I'd like to see Charles and Thrower showing more of an all-around game. |
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13otto Masters Student Posts 779
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05-22-23 08:07 AM - Post#356396
Next year, I'd like to see Smith and Holland out there more and shooting more. I'd like to see Slajchert shooting a much higher percentage. I'd like to see Ubochi strong on the glass and still able to pass from the post. I'd like to see Charles and Thrower showing more of an all-around game. I thought Jonah Charles graduated. He was honored on senior night.
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-22-23 09:33 AM - Post#356399
He has no more eligibility at Penn. I haven't seen anything about him as to a grad transfer, though. |
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SteveChop PhD Student Posts 1156 |
05-22-23 10:38 AM - Post#356400
I'm not 100% certain but I believe that Jonah Charles had a job lined up as a result of the internship he had between his junior and senior years. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-22-23 01:20 PM - Post#356401
Yeah, sorry. That was careless on my part. Time has been really distorted for me over the last few years!
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-22-23 07:17 PM - Post#356407
This is why I think there is a decent chance things run through Spinoso next year. He clearly fits the mold you are describing. No idea if Ubochi fits. Hopefully Gerhart and Ubochi both do. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
05-22-23 08:24 PM - Post#356409
Since none of us have seen Ubochi play, it's impossible to say where his skill level is. He could be another Lorca-Lloyd type rim protector with limited offensive skills), or he could turn out to be more polished overall. We won't know until we see him play. |
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mbaprof Senior Posts 346 |
05-22-23 08:31 PM - Post#356410
Per linkedin, jonah is going pro at goldman sachs |
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W. PhD Student Posts 1173 |
05-22-23 09:19 PM - Post#356416
So he's taking his talents to Wall Street. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
05-22-23 09:52 PM - Post#356419
Nice move. Best of luck to him as he starts his professional career. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-23-23 12:46 AM - Post#356426
This is why I think there is a decent chance things run through Spinoso next year. He clearly fits the mold you are describing. No idea if Ubochi fits. Hopefully Gerhart and Ubochi both do. Spinoso needs to be just a little better at finishing (he has improved massively so far) and he needs to improve his free throw shooting. We can't feel comfortable giving him the ball at the end of the game if he can't sink free throws. He actually has decent form, but his timing is not smooth at all. He has a two piece shot, and he loses the benefit of his legs. His hand release could be a bit more uniform and firm. This is advice from this shaky shooter. If he becomes a reliable finisher, he could be a monster in the pick and roll. He has decent feet, sets nice picks, and has good strength. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
05-23-23 01:13 AM - Post#356428
Spinoso's 3 point percentage as a freshman was .583 (7 for 12). He was 0 for 9 this past season. I guess he was discouraged from taking those shots this past year. If he could hit 40% from the top of the key, he would be enough of a threat that doing so might distort defenses enough to give Slajchert (and perhaps Thrower) room to operate by drawing a big out to guard him. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-23-23 08:24 AM - Post#356429
40% is a pipe dream. Especially as an improvement from 0%. Spinoso has the raw talent to be a Lefko-type center. Good hands, some nice footwork inside---has to hit his FTs. But at this point, he's not going to be successfully converted to a high post center. Without Dingle, this is Steve's chance to go back to his roots and create an offense that moves the ball far more than it has the past 2 years. But at this point, I see it as a fight for the playoff spot in a year where everything was pointing to a championship. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-23-23 11:24 AM - Post#356439
For Spinoso, it’s the passing that makes him a potential high post center. He needs to turn it over less, but he has the instincts and ability to key the offense from that spot. I think he is what he is as a shooter. He’ll take a three every 2 or 3 games, and he’ll hit around 1 out of 3. But at that rate of shot taking, it may take 2 years to come to 33% (just like his first two years). The small sample size means it takes a long time for those numbers to even out. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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05-23-23 11:40 AM - Post#356440
I certainly agree with this, but as was the case with AJ, the ability to hit a three or two early in games and force the D out really creates opportunities in the 'classic' SD offense. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122
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05-23-23 09:38 PM - Post#356451
Penn will not win because its big man makes threes. It will win if the other guys do. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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05-23-23 11:17 PM - Post#356452
A couple of early 3s from your point center isn’t enough to win games, but it sure helps if you are running a motion offense. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-24-23 10:11 AM - Post#356458
I think the real enabling thing for Brodeur was that he learned to make reads and pass well. That was why he was a good fit in the Donahue offense. The high post needs to be a dual or triple threat between driving the lane, shooting, or passing. That is why players like MLL were ineffective and why Spinoso wasn't enough to carry the frontcourt. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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05-24-23 11:04 AM - Post#356459
I think the real enabling thing for Brodeur was that he learned to make reads and pass well. That was why he was a good fit in the Donahue offense. The high post needs to be a dual or triple threat between driving the lane, shooting, or passing. Yes. Spinoso gets 1.5/3 at the moment. Passing? check. Driving the lane? Needs to finish reliably with both hands. Shooting? Needs work, but like AJ, he only needs to be reliable from one spot, preferably the top of the key. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-24-23 04:08 PM - Post#356463
Yes. Brodeur was 2.5/3, so was a great Donahue center. |
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Pete Freshman Posts 12 |
05-28-23 12:58 PM - Post#356477
Wasn’t someone who perhaps is a student at Penn now suppose to give insight into why Jordan left and perhaps can add my Gus left as well? I don’t follow the team as closely as some on this board but I wonder is the issues with the team unrealistic expectations from us, the glory days consisted of the team having to really just beat one team it seems, are the coaches not doing a good job of projecting how good the recruits will be, to me I question see some of the rotations and gusts sitting for games and then all of a sudden are in the lineups and then out, seems to be wirg the exception of a few guys don’t seem to develop, some players never seem to develop a left hand or dribble with their heads up or get a shot off when guarded one on one, idk. For those that know what did Fran do that everyone liked? What lead to his leaving Penn? What did he not do well while at Penn? Thanks and enjoy your weekend |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-29-23 03:25 PM - Post#356483
Yea NYChoops was supposed to come here and share some more detail. Also, the idea that a bunch of fans like us have some idea of who should play or who shouldn't is pretty funny to me. Those that think Holland should have seen more time, how many of you were in all the practices and saw how well he understood plays and defensive rotations? There is obviously a reason he disappeared from the lineup and it's not because anyone on here knows more about basketball than the coaches. I suspect Holland played exactly the amount he was capable of playing. As for the intermittent use of others on the roster, usually players who appear in the rotation for a game or two and then disappear are all about matchups (and not just on the offensive end). You can't score 20 on offense and give up 30 on defense and expect to play much. And that's saying something for a KP 280 defense. As far as the offense, I have seen those who criticize SD for running isolation with Dingle vs motion offense we have seen in the past. Surely you don't think it's because Steve D forgot how to run the motion offense he ran before Dingle right? Maybe it's because isolating Dingle in ball screens was the best way to maximize touches for Dingle? Obviously when Slajchert was running at peak performance we had 2 guys who could operate in isolation sets. I suspect we will see a lot more motion offense next year where extra passes result in open shots. |
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Jeff2sf Postdoc Posts 4466 |
05-29-23 04:00 PM - Post#356485
this is a disappointing backslide from you pf10. no one's "smarter" than the coaches. but everything is the coach's responsibility and for my money "matchups" is weak sauce because it becomes basically an unfalsifiable hypothesis.* I do not doubt that steve structured the team around jordan's strength. But I think where we part company is that I think he only does that if he knows that playing the motion offense would make them a significantly worse team... WITH Jordan still part of the team. In other words, there's no way Steve scraps his offense for 10 or 20 spots of KenPom. That would be a dumb risk no one would take to build an offense around one player. He did it because he thinks there were 40 or 50 spots to gain... again WITH Jordan. We weren't where we needed to be with Jordan, he should have been fired. We're going to backslide, he needs to be fired. Don't defend him. * - i have no opinion on holland honestly. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
05-30-23 03:27 PM - Post#356493
Jeff, Interesting you took my post as defending the coaches. That wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to point out that they made decisions for reasons we don't know and those reasons weren't random. No one has to agree with SD and ultimately, I agree he has to own the outcome and be held accountable. You admit as much....in your opinion Steve scrapped the offense for 40-50 KP spots and a shot at the NCAA tourney. He was wrong. Why he was wrong is open for debate but I don't think it was because he didn't play Holland and Thrower enough or because he had players with episodic appearances in the rotation. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-30-23 03:45 PM - Post#356494
I don't think he was wrong to try and build around a special player. BUT, I think he was outcoached on the court against Dartmouth and Princeton and had no answers when other teams made adjustments in the 2nd half. We blew a 13 point second half lead against Dartmouth and a 17 point halftime lead against Princeton. Had a lead at Yale with 6 to go and they ran away after that. Had a small lead against Cornell with 11 to go and got crushed thereafter too. Even had a lead early in the 2nd half in the 1st Princeton game and lost going away. Hell, even in the playoff game, we led by 1 with 2:51 to go. There you have it---in every one of our Ivy losses, we led at some point in the 2nd half. Our wins were mostly easy ones--only Yale at home was close all the way. When there is a pattern of 2nd half collapses, you have to look at the on-court coaching. We should have won the Ivies this year pretty easily in my opinion with the team we had. And clearly, some of the personnel moves were ones that could be second guessed--in particular playing Mosh far too many minutes when he really wasn't contributing at all. But 2 totally inexcusable losses and 3 others we certainly could have won but certainly should have won at least one of them cost us the season. I can understand Dingle's frustrations. We had it in our grasp and let it get away despite his unbelievable play. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-30-23 04:13 PM - Post#356496
In defense of Mosh, we went 9-5 in conference with him playing as the starting center in ‘21-‘22 and then had the exact same record in ‘22-‘23 with him relegated to the deep bench. He played 73 minutes during the conference season. I don’t think we lost because of the 73 minutes our 10th guy played. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-30-23 04:42 PM - Post#356497
I didn't say we lost because of Mosh, I said the use of him until the middle of the Ivy season could be second guessed because he was making no contribution while on the Court. I think his stats speak for themselves on that. But we lost because we blew leads in the second half --that's not on Mosh. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-30-23 05:55 PM - Post#356498
"We should have won the Ivies this year pretty easily in my opinion" I don't think anyone else would agree with that. Most of us would have agree pre-season we had a decent chance, but by no means a greater than 50% probability that would justify "should" and "easily." Happy for others to chime in if they disagree - but I'm not expecting it. Being picked to win in a toss-up league season didn't make us a prohibitive favorite. We didn't look like so much of a better team in talent when watching the games. We just looked like a contender. |
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Penn90 Masters Student Posts 575
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05-30-23 08:23 PM - Post#356500
We should have won the Ivies this year pretty easily in my opinion with the team we had. Agree 100%
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
05-30-23 08:32 PM - Post#356501
OK, I stand corrected. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
05-30-23 10:34 PM - Post#356502
Well, he was first in assist rate on the team, and first in steal rate among guys who played at all. Rebounded decently, particularly on the defensive end. He did not excel in putting the ball in the basket himself. But he contributed when he played on both ends. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
05-31-23 08:06 AM - Post#356505
Not a Division 1 player. But I agree with you that Mosh wasn't the difference between winning and losing. What happened in the second half of the games I mentioned when Mosh wasn't on the court was the difference. |
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Penn90 Masters Student Posts 575
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05-31-23 09:40 AM - Post#356506
Sorry, Penndemonium, didn't mean to come of brusque. It's just the disturbing string of late-game fades this past year really rankles.
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Penn90 Masters Student Posts 575
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05-31-23 01:49 PM - Post#356511
Sorry, Penndemonium, didn't mean to come off brusque. It's just the disturbing string of late-game fades this past year really rankles.
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
06-05-23 12:04 PM - Post#356667
St John's new-team photo---Dingle 2nd row, 3rd from right. Hope the move is right for him. Everyone who transferred in is looking to star. https://twitter.com/RealPitino/status/165 821918759... |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
06-05-23 12:59 PM - Post#356669
Good luck, JD! Will be following St. Johns. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
11-17-23 10:59 AM - Post#359334
Dingle has come back to earth a bit. 53-52 win over North Texas last night. Dingle 0-3 from field 2-4 from FT line in 28 min. Certainly not a 1st round NBA draft pick line |
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Charlie Fog Masters Student Posts 587 |
11-17-23 11:28 AM - Post#359336
Dingle has come back to earth a bit. 53-52 win over North Texas last night. Dingle 0-3 from field 2-4 from FT line in 28 min. Certainly not a 1st round NBA draft pick line oops |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
11-17-23 07:09 PM - Post#359359
Much better game today in a loss versus Dayton. 50% shooting including 1-2 for threes. 14 points. 2 steals and 2 rebounds. One assist. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
11-17-23 08:19 PM - Post#359360
Ledlum apparently didn't play very well in the North Texas game, either. I saw a quote from Pitino in the paper today indicating that he was "happier with both players' defense". He said he knows they're going to score, but need to be better defensively. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
11-19-23 08:33 PM - Post#359489
Against Utah, JD is looking much more like he did last season than he did at the start of this one |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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11-19-23 11:35 PM - Post#359502
Against Utah, JD is looking much more like he did last season than he did at the start of this one I thought the main goal of this move was to look like the scorer he was at Penn, but also demonstrate more PG skills than he has to date, plus improvement as an individual defender at the BE level, since he needs both to make him into a draft candidate rather than the undrafted free agent signee he projected to be already (the fat NIL contract also mattered of course). He’s gonna need to be better than tonight’s A/TO ratio if he wants to be seen as a PG. How did he look on D? |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
11-20-23 01:47 AM - Post#359507
I would say that his defense was neutral tonight. SJU plays an aggressive man defense, and JD was playing off the ball most of the time. I think he's struggling to keep quick ball handlers in front of him, but that was less of an issue against Utah. Box score shows him with 5 assists and 6 turnovers, which isn't great. It's still early, though. He had 18 points on 7 of 13 shooting (4 of 8 from three point range). He also had one of those classic "get into the paint and dunk in traffic" moves we've seen so many times. He's not the primary ballhandler, and it does look like his role is still "scorer", though he's more of a second or third option in the SJU offense. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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11-20-23 09:33 AM - Post#359514
Yeah, in the bits of their early games I’ve watched Jenkins—the Iona transfer with by far the most experience in Pitino’s system on the team—is the primary PG, and the numbers bear that out. Dingle, Ledlum, & all the other new faces from the portal are still learning it, and Dingle’s shoulder issue in the pre-season likely put him behind the curve on that process. Tying this to my comments in the UMES topic, SJU is the classic example of a team whose current Pomeroy rating is filled entirely with noise right now a couple games into the new season, between the coaching change and the portal reconstruction of the roster. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
12-22-23 03:13 PM - Post#360804
Dingle is no longer starting, apparently because Pitino thinks he can't guard Big East athletes. He is averaging about 11 points in a little over 20 minutes a game. If he transferee to get clarity about his NBA prospects, it looks like he has an answer. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
12-22-23 03:19 PM - Post#360805
Yes, that and $500K this season. He'll get a nice Europe contract--he'll be great in their open game. But in terms of his own PT, I always questioned the Johnnies move because Pitino was bringing in 10 guys who were doing the same thing as Dingle. Better to go somewhere where the team had a specific need to fill. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
12-22-23 03:34 PM - Post#360806
Tosan playing on the G League squad for the hapless Pistons. If he's not going to get called up there, then where? In the meanwhile, one hopes that Turell has introduced him to latkes and what-not. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
12-22-23 03:35 PM - Post#360807
I agree he can probably get a contract in Europe, but his market value is unquestionably down. If he got $500K in NIL, his decision was certainly rational. But it is a bit of a cautionary tale for kids who flourish at the Ivy level. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
12-22-23 03:39 PM - Post#360808
I don't know about that. Remember, Dingle first put his name in the NBA draft and was told that absent playing with similar numbers at a much higher level, he wasn't going to get drafted. Well, he's unlikely to get drafted now either. And he has the NIL money in his pocket. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
12-22-23 05:08 PM - Post#360810
He seems to still be getting starter quality minutes, even in the games he didn't start. I haven't watched any St. John's games to have further insight. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
12-23-23 05:38 AM - Post#360832
From Stormthepaint.com: "Pitino said that he could go back to Dingle in the starting lineup if he strings together a couple of great practices in a row but is looking for more rebounding and assists from the shooting guard position. "I'm not going to base what someone did at Penn or at Harvard as what they are going to do at St. John’s -- and same thing with the Iona guys," Pitino said after his team defeated Fordham. "[Conway] had two or three great days of practice, and he earned the right to start in this game.” |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
12-23-23 08:48 AM - Post#360833
This doesn't surprise me. From what I've seen of St John's so far, it's pretty clear that Dingle isn't an instinctive playmaker, and it's taking him a while to adapt to playing off the ball as a third or fourth option in the offense. Looks as if he's going to have to focus on rebounding, as well. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
12-23-23 12:47 PM - Post#360837
Heard Pitino talk about defense, He said most of the guys can't guard him in practice. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
12-23-23 01:43 PM - Post#360839
The move to the second unit and reduced minutes seem to indicate that JD isn't defending the way Pitino wants him to. |
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Silver Maple Postdoc Posts 3781 |
12-23-23 01:49 PM - Post#360840
Jordan was a great player, and Penn is very luck to have had him, but let's be honest-- he often was kind of indifferent on the defensive end. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
12-23-23 03:32 PM - Post#360843
True. Pitino wants to burn the other team out on defense. He also wants the ball to move FAST on offense. Dingle was a deliberate player and decision-maker. I think that is why the team passing is better this year. That said, I hope Dingle gets out of the dog house and into a leading role - and to the NBA. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
12-23-23 04:29 PM - Post#360850
I agree. It may just be that Pitino's system isn't a great fit for JD. Being a deliberate decision-maker isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in basketball it can be a negative, especially at the next level, where athleticism and quickness are valuable attributes. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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12-23-23 07:21 PM - Post#360859
Heard Pitino talk about defense, He said most of the guys can't guard him in practice. That Pitino comment was after their win over Xavier Wednesday night, in which he specifically singled out Dingle and Conway, the VMI transfer: “They can’t guard ME in practice, and I’m 71 years old!” |
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caughtinasnare Senior Posts 362 |
12-24-23 01:01 AM - Post#360862
I had the good fortune to have really good seats to go see my two alma maters play each other at MSG last weekend, and I was definitely upset to see Dingle not starting. That said, when he was in he was alright, but he didn't stand out. Soriano, however, REALLY stood out. He was essentially unguardable. Can't imagine how different that game would have been if he was still playing at Fordham instead of transferring to SJU a couple years back. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
12-24-23 12:53 PM - Post#360867
St. John's lost to Connecticut by 4 last night. In 22 minutes, JD recorded 9 points, one assist and one rebound. He was the third leading scorer, but shot just 1 for 5 from long range. Pretty close to invisible. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 338 |
12-24-23 02:07 PM - Post#360868
Transfer portal always provokes speculation...what if he had gone there? What if he had stayed here? JD as a Quaker makes that team better, no question, and SD teams usually peak late. I know I was on the edge of my seat whenever he got the ball. Hope he plays like I know he can. Quality kid for sure |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
12-24-23 05:19 PM - Post#360873
On the comments about JD's defense... I never got a strong feeling as to whether he was a good or bad defender. He was so much more athletic than any our other players and Ivy opponents, and he was able to play effectively with a compact balance - so even when he is doing a good job, it doesn't LOOK like he is trying very hard. He isn't throwing himself around like a pinball out there and his feet aren't a flurry. I wonder how much of the appearance and reality is related to that. He is also playing against a much higher level of competition and probably does need to play with more motor in the Big East. Still hoping for his success at SJU. He certainly can play at a higher level, but playing on the right team in the right role probably will matter more for him than some others. He doesn't fit the perfect role and mold for PG, SG, or SF. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
12-24-23 07:20 PM - Post#360875
Jordan is just not an NBA player. Not big or fast enough or good enough three point shooter to make the jump. Would have to be a PG. And don't think he handles well enough for that. He should have a great career in Euro leagues if that is what he wants. Was great to have him at Penn. A shame we could not get to a tourney with him. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122
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12-24-23 10:51 PM - Post#360879
It is always hard to estimate an individual's defensive performance. That said, last year's penn team was not a good defensive team, although it is MUCH WORSE this year. Is that the departure of Martz, Monroe, or Dingle. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
12-24-23 11:02 PM - Post#360880
I suspect that the poor defense this season is due to a combination of losing Martz and Monroe, and the team's corresponding combination of youth and inexperience. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
12-25-23 01:06 AM - Post#360881
Many felt that Monroe was our best defensive player. I'm not sure I agree, but he certainly made a number of crunch-time defensive plays. Martz wasn't a perfect defender, but he added physical strength to the position where we were most lacking depth. Both are possible areas of loss. As I mentioned, I have a tough time characterizing Dingle's defense. This may be a sign that he has room to grow. Still, it clear to me that Slajchert, Brown, and Thrower are a net defensive downgrade from Dingle. Perkins is probably more neutral to Dingle defensively, but he is probably more replacing Monroe than Dingle. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
12-25-23 01:13 PM - Post#360887
Defense is always hard for me to gage. I personally thought that Martz was probably our best defender, though there were certainly matchups where he wasn’t quick enough. Monroe was probably physically our best defender, but I thought at times his decision making wasn’t as good. Martz often drew the tougher assignment of the 2, particularly against 4s. Monroe would often draw smaller players. Dingle was a guy other teams targeted, though some of that may simply be trying to make our best offensive player work (or get in foul trouble). He got better every year, to where he was ok as a junior. I had wondered if he would match up better defensively in the Big East, but it sounds like that hasn’t happened. Mike Smith is an example of a guy who struggled to defend in our league but was fine playing at a higher level (though Smith tended to draw tougher defensive assignments for Columbia, while Dingle generally drew the easiest perimeter matchup for Penn). As I’ve mentioned previously, I think our defense has been worse with more Brown and less Thrower. When Brown was hurt and Thrower was starting, we clearly played our best defense of the season. I don’t see precisely why that is the case, but for whatever reason it has been true. For the first few games, it appeared our defense had improved from last year. But the wheels have come off defensively since then (while the offense has gotten better). |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
12-25-23 05:51 PM - Post#360888
I think it was because we played two Div III teams and some lower Div. 1 teams in those games. At least the eye test didn't show me that either is a better defender than the other - but I didn't try to compare closely. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
12-25-23 09:03 PM - Post#360898
Against UConn, Dingle was playing a lot of matchup zone D and seemed solid enough. On offense he looked a little unsure about what he was supposed to do and how he could get shots, which led to some ill-advised three-point attempts. But he was able to drive a couple of times with good results. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
12-25-23 11:01 PM - Post#360900
I don’t think so — we played St Joe and Nova during the stretch I’m talking about. It’s after Nova that the defense got worse. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
01-17-24 01:15 PM - Post#361794
Dingle missed yesterday's St John's blowout loss at Seton Hall with an illness. Wonder if it's Covid, as Pitino missed the game yesterday with Covid. But really wonder if Jordan is happy with his decision (apart from the money he got). Averaging 10.5, sometimes coming off the bench and clearly has not improved his NBA chances. |
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jeromelh Junior Posts 215 |
01-17-24 02:49 PM - Post#361795
In my humble opinion, it was a terrible decision. He certainly would have had an opportunity in the summer league and G league to get coached up. He is very athletic so there is no reason he couldn't become an adequate defensive player. What is worse, is that he is going to have to find a time to finish his course work to get his Penn degree. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
01-17-24 04:49 PM - Post#361801
I doubt he's looking back on this too much. He's playing basketball against major conference competition and is still playing a good role with his team. He has a few hundred thousand ways to console himself as he works for his degree. I think he will get invited to try out for a few NBA teams and certainly has a lucrative European career option. The very issues that are holding him back from being a Big East star are even more so the issues that will hold him back from the NBA. His game is just a harder fit for the roles at the next level and beyond. He is very good all around, but not someone who will raise his team through ball-handling, passing, assists, shooting, or defense at the next levels.
In my humble opinion, it was a terrible decision. He certainly would have had an opportunity in the summer league and G league to get coached up. He is very athletic so there is no reason he couldn't become an adequate defensive player. What is worse, is that he is going to have to find a time to finish his course work to get his Penn degree. |
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jeromelh Junior Posts 215 |
01-17-24 06:55 PM - Post#361806
I certainly don't know what he thinks, but he doesn't start and has averages 10 points per game for the year. I doubt that this is helping his NBA future. That's my humble opinion. Furthermore, I am not sure that it is so easy to complete Ivy course work while you are playing basketball almost every day. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
01-17-24 07:51 PM - Post#361807
How sure are people that he got big NIL $$? That is the only potential silver lining to his move. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
01-18-24 02:30 AM - Post#361812
Playing #1 Uconn and several other tough teams week in and out isn't exactly a terrible thing. He is getting starter / 6th man minutes. Playing at their arena and MSG isn't a terrible thing. He is from NY. Team is #38 Pomeroy and #23 RPI. Gets to play for a coaching legend. His team is winning despite being its first year together. I don't know if he's happy about his decision or not, but I don't see any reason to single him out as someone who made a bad decision - especially if he has kept his degree option open. If that's the case, it was no real downside. Penn is not looking like a championship team, and it isn't clear he would have been the difference-maker, given our leadership has remained at Guard. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
01-19-24 11:08 AM - Post#361818
I’m not sure you evaluate the decision based entirely on result either. In terms of the NBA, there are lots of places along the way where that dream can end. Maybe staying at Penn and leading the nation in scoring extends the dream, but it probably just ends at a different spot on the path. Just because the dream ends, that doesn’t mean you made the wrong choice pursuing the dream. He made a decision that was at least in part premised on doing what he could to pursue the NBA dream. He doesn’t have to actually reach the NBA to justify the choice. That all is assuming that he continues to come off the bench and be a secondary option at St John’s. You never know how things might develop — he still could make this look very different in a couple of months. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
01-19-24 11:19 AM - Post#361819
He is also going to have a far greater chance of playing postseason basketball at St. Johns as opposed to Penn. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
01-19-24 09:45 PM - Post#361830
The biggest developmental downside for him I can see at St. Johns, having watched them a few times this year and kept an eye on Dingle, is that he doesn't have a chance to develop any offensive rhythm (and he is mostly a help defender in their matchup zone). He goes up and down the floor on possession after possession without having much impact on the game. His three-point shooting off of passes is solid, but when he tries to initiate anything his teammates just stare at him and don't even get in rebounding position, and the shots he takes then haven't been going in at a high rate. |
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Bryan Junior Posts 233 |
01-19-24 09:52 PM - Post#361831
If one of the appeals of going to play for Pitino is helping your chance to get to the NBA, then having him play a match-up zone is a bad choice for you. If you want to play in the NBA you better be able to play man-to-man. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
01-19-24 11:30 PM - Post#361836
They play a lot of man-to-man as well, but I've seen many possessions where Dingle gets back promptly on D and slides to the front corner of the match-up. When the ball comes into his area, he gets to belly up the man with the ball. (Of course, a man D that switches all ball screens is similar to a match-up in some respects.) |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
01-20-24 01:39 AM - Post#361837
I think the point that someone else already made was key. He probably wasn't an NBA player anyway. This is nothing against Dingle. The bar is just so high. There are about 5,500 division 1 college basketball players each season. Only about 1% will even get a long look from an NBA team, taste of an NBA game. Less will actually build a solid NBA career. I don't think playing. for Penn or playing for St. John's is the defining factor. The only difference is that playing for St. John's exposes it more, because JD wouldn't have had sufficient competition in the Ivies to prove or disprove. Any shortcomings he had then would likely have been survived. Meanwhile, he has probably had to grow up defensively at St. John's, even from practice. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
01-20-24 02:01 AM - Post#361838
I think the biggest factor JD has had to adapt to has been going from being the primary scoring option, as he was at Penn, to being the third or fourth option at St. John's. I think that has a lot to do with his inconsistent shooting. I do agree that for the time being, his basketball future appears to be in Europe. I don't see him as a G League player, but I could be wrong. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
01-20-24 10:21 AM - Post#361841
He will certainly get a European contract, but perhaps not as lucrative a one as after last year. It is also not clear that he is developing more than he would have in a program that was built around seeing him succeed. I agree he had reasons to consider a move as will other Ivy stars. His experience shows that all decisions have potential risks as well as potential benefits. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
01-20-24 02:18 PM - Post#361847
As did Mike Smith and Evan Boudreaux before him. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
01-20-24 05:00 PM - Post#361876
I don't think Smith had Ivy eligibility. Not sure about Boudreaux. |
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Old Bear Postdoc Posts 4002 |
01-20-24 05:38 PM - Post#361881
Did Dingle play vs. Marquette? |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
01-20-24 07:29 PM - Post#361897
No. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
01-20-24 07:30 PM - Post#361899
No, he missed his second consecutive game due to illness. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
01-21-24 04:14 PM - Post#361962
It seems to me that it's only a matter of time before the IL makes the move to DIII. It was challenging enough when being the only DI division not to offer athletic scholarships. But add the NIL layer on top of this, and it's next to impossible. Plus the exodus of players via the transfer portal--it's not a good look for the league. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6415 |
01-21-24 04:24 PM - Post#361963
That could be where it goes, of course, but right now it’s only Dingle. The transfer portal is (almost) all grad transfers. And that weird 4 years to play 4 years rule may actually help prevent undergrad transfers from the league, because it is fairly easy to get the Ivy degree and then grad transfer and still play a year of big conference basketball. Kind of the best of both worlds. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
01-21-24 04:30 PM - Post#361964
If you're good enough to play "big time" conference basketball, you're not going to play for free (not even a scholarship) for four years when you could be getting both a scholarship and NIL for 4 years. Not unless your family is independently wealthy, anyways. |
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jeromelh Junior Posts 215 |
01-21-24 05:36 PM - Post#361967
With Covid year behind us, I expect to see a marked decrease in Ivy transfers. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-15-24 12:46 PM - Post#363223
Rough article on Dingle in today's NY Post https://nypost.com/2024/02/15/sports/st- johns-feel... |
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Penn90 Masters Student Posts 575
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02-15-24 02:07 PM - Post#363227
Oof. This article takes no prisoners.
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3619
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02-15-24 04:15 PM - Post#363235
Rough article and rough times for Jordan. I never liked the St. Johns choice to be honest, it was too much an unknown when basically the entire team was going to be transfers in there. That said, while Jordan has not lived up to his own standards statistically, in the games I watch, Coach Pitino has not used Jordan in the way that matches his skills. Just a bad fit with the coach and players to be honest. I hope St. Johns can turn it around and at least make the NCAAs. for Jordan's sake. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
02-16-24 02:41 AM - Post#363251
I agree that Dingle has not been given much chance for offensive flow to develop in the six or so St. John’s games I’ve watched. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
02-16-24 04:31 AM - Post#363253
I was a bit mixed on him playing for Pitino too. Pitino is an amazing coach. I didn't think it was a good fit for Dingle, but I was intrigued that he would be playing in a scheme that would require his improvement in exactly the areas he needs to improve for a shot at the NBA - faster ball movement, faster decisions, better three point shooting, and swarming full-court defense. In a strange way (and I don't mean to upset you, nychoops), Donahue did customize the offense to work for Dingle in a way that fit. It was a pretty one-dimensional set of plays (probably part of your ire), but with hindsight it enabled some of Dingle's strengths. It's hard to argue with his individual stats under Donahue. If I were to give Dingle advice, it would be to move the ball faster - try not to hold the ball for even a second and try not to take a few still dribbles to read the defense. Instead, either pass the ball immediately or else penetrate hard immediately. I think Pitino would rather a player put immediate pressure on the defense, and then kick the ball if the drive isn't there - instead of dribbling in place while reading the defense. Pitino wants an off-balance defense, not one with time to key on a player and to set their feet. Dingle is not a long armed defender, so he needs to be quicker on his feet and more physical on D than he was at Penn. I haven't really watched St. John's games, so maybe he's already doing these things under Pitino. Wishing him a great rest of the season. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
02-16-24 12:42 PM - Post#363278
Dingle hasn't had much of a chance? Come on. He is averaging 25 min a game (starter minutes) and has career lows in almost every category. They don't have a "closer" and have a losing record in single digit games (5-6). At some point JD has to be a basketball player. No one at the level he is playing (or hopes to play) is going to structure their offense around him. He has to go score, defend, and distribute with high efficiency in whatever situation/system he is playing. Another school would be the same problem. I love the kid, but this isn't Pitino's fault or the system's fault. Dingle hasn't shown the killer instinct you need to play at a higher level. If we are honest, he didn't take over in key, close games, at Penn either. The Princeton losses being examples 1,2 and 3. I hope he turns his enormous talent loose at some point down the stretch at St Johns. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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02-16-24 01:04 PM - Post#363280
I was a bit mixed on him playing for Pitino too. Pitino is an amazing coach. I didn't think it was a good fit for Dingle, but I was intrigued that he would be playing in a scheme that would require his improvement in exactly the areas he needs to improve for a shot at the NBA - faster ball movement, faster decisions, better three point shooting, and swarming full-court defense. Exactly. His challenges this year do not change the fact that he made a good decision to leave. It was a bit of a gamble in some ways, but there was little chance playing for Penn this year would have improved his NBA possibilities. This way, he had a shot (maybe still does) and then there was the $$$. He did what he needed to do. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1903 |
02-16-24 03:45 PM - Post#363299
I assume that was meant for SRP.
Dingle hasn't had much of a chance? Come on. He is averaging 25 min a game (starter minutes) and has career lows in almost every category. They don't have a "closer" and have a losing record in single digit games (5-6). At some point JD has to be a basketball player. No one at the level he is playing (or hopes to play) is going to structure their offense around him. He has to go score, defend, and distribute with high efficiency in whatever situation/system he is playing. Another school would be the same problem. I love the kid, but this isn't Pitino's fault or the system's fault. Dingle hasn't shown the killer instinct you need to play at a higher level. If we are honest, he didn't take over in key, close games, at Penn either. The Princeton losses being examples 1,2 and 3. I hope he turns his enormous talent loose at some point down the stretch at St Johns. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
02-16-24 08:15 PM - Post#363310
If you watch St. John’s, the ball is dominated by the Iona-transfer PG (who is good) and their big man. Any time Dingle uses a possession he looks like an uninvited guest. It would help if his three-point shooting were better, but it’s not like he’s getting a ton of catch-and-shoot opportunities. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
02-17-24 12:29 AM - Post#363348
I've said this since the beginning of the season: JD has struggled being the third or fourth option in their offense. He gets very few touches in spots where he's open and in rhythm, and the size and physicality of help defenders in the Big East have largely prevented him from getting into the paint. |
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
02-17-24 10:23 AM - Post#363365
On the bright side, two of Dingle's Penn teammates - Max Lorca Loyd and Lucas Monroe - seem to be enjoying their 5th years. At UMBC MLL is co-leader of America East is blocks/game and a real candidate for conference Defensive POY, while Monroe just dropped a very efficient 14 on Hofstra for Drexel. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
02-17-24 01:12 PM - Post#363369
Dingle is second on the team in FGA and 3PA. he is shooting career lows in FG%, 3pt% and FT% (not sure how that is affected by scheme). He's the 3rd or 4th option mainly because he hasn't performed like a 1st option. At some point he has to be a basketball player. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVNYnmHM_ow |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
02-17-24 04:36 PM - Post#363380
Have you watched them play? For sure, better shooting by Dingle (and fewer turnovers) would help. But the fact that Pitino is a defensive coach is readily apparent when you watch their offensive possessions. Night and day compared to a team like UConn with all their curls and off-ball actions. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
02-17-24 06:21 PM - Post#363381
Yes. I have seen 4-5 of their games. It's different for sure, but he isn't getting zero shots. He is playing starter minutes and second on the team in FGA. Unfortunately, he just hasn't been able to adjust. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
02-19-24 05:16 AM - Post#363506
I haven’t found a video of his whole press conference, and Dingle was not one of the names called out in the fragments I’ve seen reported, but Pitino blew a gasket and leaked out whatever class he might have had after losing to Seton Hall. Just running down his players mercilessly. https://www.nj.com/sports/2024/02/after- latest-st-... |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
02-19-24 10:56 AM - Post#363524
“Jordan Dingle was the leading scorer at Penn, and they were happy to see him go. ” Doug Gottlieb on The Field of 68 podcast. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MVb7f6OtT50 |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-19-24 11:04 AM - Post#363525
Ridiculous douchebag comment. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
02-19-24 12:18 PM - Post#363532
Pitino said "this is the most unenjoyable year I've had in my career in coaching". Ouch. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
02-19-24 12:59 PM - Post#363535
really a shame that a guy who ran a program where recruits were treated to prostitutes isn't having fun at his multi-million dollar job. Terrible that the players he selected are4 not as good as he thought. Definitely deserves a raise. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-19-24 01:02 PM - Post#363538
Tough to feel sorry for the players though--they went pro, got paid well and it isn't working. Big East is really tough, though. And UConn has both the recruits and the coach--Seton Hall got the great young coach. Don't know if the time has passed for Pitino---should have stayed at Iona, where he always would be worshipped. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-19-24 01:04 PM - Post#363539
The guy also lives in a country club in Westchester (although I don't know if that changed since taking on the job in Queens--but it's not a terribly long commute). |
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
02-19-24 03:02 PM - Post#363545
From a ridiculous douchebag. |
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
02-19-24 03:07 PM - Post#363547
Pitino throwing his whole team under the bus, and in a really nasty way, is totally beyond the pale. Don't think I can ever remember a coach doing this at the college level. Calling out specific players as unathletic is crazy, I don't care how good a coach you aren or how poorly players are playing. I only wish the players could have a press conference and get the same sort of stage to reveal what they really think of Pitino. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-19-24 03:35 PM - Post#363549
Well, we've never seen it when college players were amateurs, anyway. The entire game has changed--we see outbursts like this in pro ball all the time. These guys are pros. Doesn't take away the douchebaggery of either Gottlieb or Pitino. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
02-19-24 04:01 PM - Post#363552
Interesting questions. If St. John’s players reaped $2.7 mil in nil between 14 players, there are some big payoffs. If these players are now essentially pros, do coaches have a green light to rip them, especially ones with the biggest nil deals? Is it too much to hope that Dingle doesn’t set a trend of Ivy players headed to the payoff portal? Personally, I hope Dingle flops. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-19-24 04:05 PM - Post#363554
Not sure why anyone would want to root against Jordan Dingle. He's a class act. Oh wait, you're a Princeton fan. |
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
02-19-24 04:06 PM - Post#363555
Wait, what? By all accounts Jordan Dingle is a great guy. Not to mention he played his butt off for Penn, including playing through some pretty significant injuries. Why on earth would you wish ill upon him? Because he wanted to chase his NBA dream? Certainly the negativity surrounding this says way more about you than him. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-19-24 04:08 PM - Post#363556
He has some legitimate worries, considering that Princeton's 2 best players are sophs. They could be worth several hundred thousand of dollars per year on the NIL market. |
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CM Masters Student Posts 435 |
02-19-24 07:21 PM - Post#363575
Then have the Tiger alums turn over some couch cushions and pull a few hundred K for the Tiger Collective and pay the players to keep them playing at Jadwyn. Still not sure why some enterprising alum hasn't done this yet at one of the Ivys, not like the money wouldn't be there. But complaining is probably easier. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-19-24 07:23 PM - Post#363577
Well, Harvard did it for its coach. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
02-19-24 08:13 PM - Post#363581
Call me a traditionalist who doesn't want to see the league's best players hopping into the portal every year for cash. If you guys want to celebrate your best player bolting for something they perceive as better, then by all means root for St. John's. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-19-24 08:17 PM - Post#363582
Oh, I've been saying it's only a matter of time before the IL goes DIII. But that has nothing to do with rooting for or against an individual player. |
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13otto Masters Student Posts 779
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02-19-24 09:24 PM - Post#363588
Ridiculous douchebag comment. Agreed. If they (the Penn players) "were happy to see him go", then that would mean they're happy being 1-8 and battling Dartmouth for 7th place (as opposed to possibly playing for a share of first place on the final day of the season, as they did last season). Hard to believe, Harry...
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
02-19-24 11:24 PM - Post#363597
Oh, I've been saying it's only a matter of time before the IL goes DIII. I’m sure Penn would do quite well in the Middle Atlantic Conference. Meanwhile, the rest of the Ivies are fielding their best top 3 in years: https://www.midmajormadness.com/2024/2/19/24077144... |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
02-20-24 06:08 AM - Post#363602
To be fair, Carril used to occasionally itemize his players’ weaknesses in public, but his tone was more needling than ripping. “X is a good player. But he gets tired.” That sort of thing. |
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jeromelh Junior Posts 215 |
02-20-24 10:03 AM - Post#363611
I originally felt that Dingle had made a mistake transferring to St John's and I gave my reasons. However, after I posted, I started reading about how NIL income could amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars. If Dingle's family are moderate to low income, this kind of income would be enticing indeed. I hadn't considered that. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-20-24 10:11 AM - Post#363613
Dana Dingle, Jordan's father, was a key piece in John Calipari's UMass team that beat the Allen-Maloney team 54-50 in 1993. He played European pro ball and now is a director of the NY Lightning AAU organization. While I have no idea of his income, I doubt that he or his family is suffering financially. But you can never blame a player from taking a good amount of money--the amount I heard Jordan received was disputed by NYChoops, who's opinion I respect, so I won't put down the numbers but it's pretty certainly 6 figures. He went for it--it doesn't appear to be working, but I doubt he reduced his marketability for European pro ball. https://www.newyorklightning.com/copy-of-our-teams |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 437 |
02-20-24 10:22 AM - Post#363614
I think Dingle took a rational risk, but I think his European value will go down. He now looks like a guy who does not thrive with other talent. He will get offers, but not from teams at the top level. Of course, if he thrives at a lower level, he may move up. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2142 |
02-21-24 08:12 PM - Post#363723
JD scored 7 of SJU's first 13 points against Georgetown tonight. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-21-24 08:27 PM - Post#363724
Say what you want, but at least in the first half the team responded to that Pitino shellacking. Not that the Hoyas are any kind of test, of course. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-21-24 10:08 PM - Post#363729
Dingle's best game this year, although the game itself got too close for comfort down the stretch. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4919 |
02-22-24 06:13 AM - Post#363736
Pitino’s postgame apology for his previous remarks was hilarious because of his players sitting stone-faced and staring straight ahead at the table. Looked like a hostage video. The other amusing angle was when, in order to soften his previous criticisms, he pointed out that Nikola Jokic also lacks lateral quickness. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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02-22-24 11:47 AM - Post#363749
Maybe it had something to do with just having a solid game, but Dingle was pretty sanguine about Pitino in his post-game interview. This week has been vintage Pitino. He makes a big splash with some controversial comments in public, his team responds, then he goes all contrite. I suspect some on his squad don't appreciate it, and others (the veterans like Jordan) knew what they were getting into when they signed up. I'm not a fan, but that is who the man is and he gets results in the end. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32871 |
02-22-24 12:19 PM - Post#363752
Almost blowing a 21 point lead against Georgetown is not much to celebrate. The Johnnies played as they have all season--they collapse in the 2nd half. But Dingle was good this game. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-25-24 05:06 PM - Post#363988
Another good game for Dingle, this time against a legitimately solid Creighton squad. https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/boxsc... |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1122
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02-25-24 08:52 PM - Post#363994
Note that Jordan had only on of St. John's 24 assists. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
02-25-24 09:37 PM - Post#363995
He doesn't handle the ball nearly as much as he did as a Quaker, but on a per minute basis he has roughly the same assist/game ratio as he did last season. |
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yoyo Senior Posts 365 |
02-27-24 11:53 AM - Post#364044
he should be a good player in Europe |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
03-06-24 12:57 AM - Post#364613
Another nice game in a blowout win at DePaul. Ever since Pitino's tirade, St. John's has gone 4-0. Dingle's stats during that stretch: 28 for 43 from the field (65.1%), 68 points, in 94 minutes. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-07-24 11:30 AM - Post#364697
and 7-16 from the arc (44%) when he was averaging 31% on the season (a career low). |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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03-07-24 12:06 PM - Post#364700
Jordan, along with the team, have been a lot better since Pitino went off. I think he had something like 19 in 18 minutes in his last game and shot very well. Ledlum also had a very good game. Notably, they played something like 8-9 guys with 15+ minutes. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21264 |
03-07-24 12:09 PM - Post#364701
The last game against DePaul was a blowout--essentially over by halftime, so a lot of players got meaningful minutes. |
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Streamers Professor Posts 8304
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03-07-24 02:15 PM - Post#364709
Point taken. |
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