Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
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 03-24-10 05:07 PM - Post#80029
If I'm not mistaken, none of the Cornell starters was heavily recruited coming out of high school. Does anybody have any insight on how Cornell came up with such a great senior class? Did we have a shot at any of these players? Or is the answer coaching?
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-24-10 08:50 PM - Post#80048
In response to Chet Forte
The stories about Foote and Dale are quite unusual. Don't know about the rest.
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Dr. V
PhD Student
Posts: 1539
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-24-10 09:57 PM - Post#80058
In response to internetter
As recently reported, Wittman was under-recruited b/c he had suffered a deep thigh bruise in h.s. that turned a lot of schools off; Dale sent tape to all kinds of schools and none was interested, presumably b/c he was too short?; anyway, he had also sent tape to Penn and then Cornell, and Cornell was the only one to respond positively; Foote was a 210 lb walk on at St. Bonnie who then transferred to Cornell after his mother, an ICU nurse who took care of Khaliq Grant, the Cornell player who was paralyzed for a while, was tremendously impressed by the team members' solidarity with their fallen teammate. There seems to be a good amount of luck here. But what's impressive is that Foote improved each year, as did Wittman, and that Cornell also has other players such as Jacques who has been able to step in as a senior and shoot the lights out.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
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03-25-10 12:09 AM - Post#80064
In response to Dr. V
Hey Doc, how do you explain our inability to capture recruits like Wittman, Foote and Dale in Men's Basketball when the Columbia Women's Basketball Team has successfully recruited the top women's basketball basketball player in the Ivy League (Judie Lomax) several other excellent current players and four very promising incoming high school seniors from California, Oregon, Georgia and Tennessee. Keep in mind also that our Lady Lions crushed Cornell twice this year. Is it simply that the Columbia Women's Basketball Coach is a better recruiter than the Columbia Men's Basketball Coach? And does the same thing exist in reverse at Cornell?
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-10 08:42 AM - Post#80069
In response to Columbia 37P6
I'm not sure you want to use your women's team as the standard. Some good players aside, the last Ivy title they won was . . . never.
In the 35 years the League has been competing in women's hoops, Columbia is the only team to have never won. But like men's ball, the League is highly unbalanced. Yale has only won 1 title (in 1979). Cornell tied for its 1 title in 2007 and Penn has won only twice (2001, 2004). Next comes Brown (3 outright, 3 tied), Princeton (5 outright, 3 tied), Harvard (5 outright, 6 tied) and Dartmouth (10 outright, 7 tied).
So the questions you could ask might be why is that the Columbia men's team can recruit better players than Dartmouth but the women's team can't? And what is different about the recruiting of women's players that Dartmouth can field the best team in League history on the women's side and the worst team in league history on the men's?
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-25-10 10:11 AM - Post#80075
In response to Howard Gensler
I think that we should be able to do a better job of recruiting. We seem to constantly recruit in bulk. We had 19 players on this year's team. that in and of itself is a problem, for morale, playing time, continuity of rotation, etc. We recruit an abundance of tweeners who are too big to play in the backcourt and too small to play in the front court. We haven't recruited a great PG since Alton Byrd. Our big men seem to lack certain basic offensive skills. But did Cornell have better material coming in, or did Steve D develop it?
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-10 11:28 AM - Post#80084
In response to Chet Forte
Both. But you're talking about an amazing confluence of events that only happens once in a Big Red moon. (Not to say Cornell won't be good, but this year they're freakishly good.) Wittman may not have ended up at Cornell if he doesn't get hurt in high school. Dale may not have ended up at Cornell if Penn isn't in the middle of its first coaching change in 16 years when his tape comes into the office. Foote, the one position player they needed to complement the guards and wings, may not have ended up at Cornell if Gant doesn't have a traumatic injury in practice. Instead they ALL ended up at Cornell and they ended up there at the exact same time when there's scads of playing time available so they can all grow together. And at the same time the Ps were in decline.
Then add in that none of the large senior class except for Tyler got hurt for any period of time, Wittman grew a couple inches, Foote put on weight and, perhaps most importantly, they all ended up liking each other. Throw in the perfect environment to nurture this embarrassment of unexpected riches set up by Coach Donahue and his staff, and the players' willingness and desire to work hard combined with their ability to improve (some kids work hard but just don't get much better) and you've got an incredibly experienced, senior dominated team that's playing its butt off and Donahue is making every right coaching move. Sometimes you get all the good things but can't make use of it. Donahue and Cornell are making use of everything.
The difference is that at the major level this type of thing is routine and those programs and coaches can make their own good fortune, but at the mid-major and lower level it's not - so many things have to go right. It's David Robinson at Navy, Gathers and Kimble together at Loyola Marymount, it's the 7-footer and the PG and the wing player showing up at Bucknell at the same time. It's awesome when it happens but you can't plan on it happening. And if you're going to blame Joe Jones for not making it happen there are 300+ other coaches who need to share blame with him.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3780
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-25-10 01:14 PM - Post#80089
In response to Howard Gensler
To me, the biggest stroke of luck for Cornell is Foote. Wittman and Dale, great players both, are pretty typical of great players on Ivy champion squads. I put Wittman in a class w. Shiffner, Begley, Lewullis, etc., and put Dale in class with Jaaber, Jordan, Earl, Henderson, etc.
Foote is another thing entirely. Regardless of how he came to be the player he is at the school he's at, we just don't see centers of his caliber in the Ivy league. When was the last time we had a big man like him in the conference? Matt White? Maybe Chris Young would have worked out to be at the same level, but he opted for baseball. Steve Goodrich was a great player, but I really don't put him in a class with Foote. Onyekwe and Kit Mueller were great players, but undersized. Foote pretty much stands alone as far as I can see. And he's what sets Cornell apart from any Ivy champ of the last 20 years.
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skiba34
Masters Student
Posts: 952
Reg: 03-11-06
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Cornell
03-25-10 01:50 PM - Post#80094
In response to Silver Maple
Foote may be the standard now and may stand alone, but let's remember he did not come in that way. He developed or was developed very well over the years.
Columbia has it's share of big players but very few actually develop. J Miller is the normal example of a developed player, although I really believe it had more to do with Miller actually getting a real chance to play vs the few minutes he played in his previous years.
Recruiting talent and developing go hand in hand. The sad truth is Jones is poor overall at both.
Cornell has a coach that has turned a program with no real winning history into a 3 time Ivy champion and a multiple tourney winner.
Meantime Columbia gets a coach who hasn't had a single winning record in 7 years and some people apparently still want him including this current administration.
While I am very happy for Cornell and the attention it's giving to Ivy basketball, it is a bit bittersweet because it reminds me of how truly hopeless it is at Columbia with the current mindset that exists here.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3780
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-25-10 01:52 PM - Post#80096
In response to skiba34
I agree- the Cornell coaches get huge credit for helping Foote become the player he now is, as should Foote himself. This didn't just happen. But Howard's right, there's a lot of luck involved here as well.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-25-10 04:03 PM - Post#80101
In response to Silver Maple
Maybe I am wrong, but I really expected Ben Nwachukwu to be more of a star than he turned out. That could be evidence of the inability to develop players.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-10 07:19 PM - Post#80108
In response to Red n Blue
You may be right there but I think most people would have expected John Baumann to be less of a star than he turned out. So much depends on the kid and his work ethic.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
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03-25-10 09:20 PM - Post#80115
In response to Howard Gensler
Howard, maybe I wasn't clear, but I was only questioning why the curent women's basketball coach at Columbia has been more successful in his recruiting efforts than the men's coach. Whatever has happened in the past is not the point. I agree with you that the women have not enjoyed much success either. But the current women's coach has taken Columbia from the bottom of the League to third place in just five years so he's certainly doing something right. And on top of that he has several more outstanding players coming in next year so the Lady Lions could be even stronger in the near future.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-10 09:49 PM - Post#80123
In response to Columbia 37P6
I get what you're saying but it's apples and oranges. That's why Dartmouth has been the most successful women's program and the least successful men's program. It's why Penn has been incredibly successful in men's basketball and incredibly unsuccessful in women's (I believe Coach McLaughlin will change that).
Why it's so different could be a whole topic, but it is.
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skiba34
Masters Student
Posts: 952
Reg: 03-11-06
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03-25-10 11:17 PM - Post#80163
In response to Howard Gensler
You may be right there but I think most people would have expected John Baumann to be less of a star than he turned out. So much depends on the kid and his work ethic.
Baumann is not a good example of developing or working hard. Despite his injury his freshman year, he was showing signs of being very good. He also spent his offseason playing baseball. So it's safe the wasn't the hardest offseason worker in basketball. Not saying he didn't put in some good work, but John was a 2 sport star.
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penn62
PhD Student
Posts: 1053
Reg: 11-27-05
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04-08-10 09:28 PM - Post#81235
In response to Dr. V
"Improved", as is gaining 50 lbs. of muscle?
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