Anonymous
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12-02-04 01:16 PM - Post#474
Very sad. It's too bad we have to look forward to games against city rivals (Drexel, La Salle coming up) to actually have a decent crowd at the Palestra.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 01:30 PM - Post#475
In response to
Actually, the Penn attendance for Drexel was equally miserable. The students simply aren't coming so far this year other than the Red and Blue crew. As I've stated previously, the primary reason for this is a very very weak home schedule combined with two years in which the entire team has turned over. No identification with the team---no sexy games---no attendance. This has been beaten to death, though. IF the team wins, they will come.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 01:35 PM - Post#476
In response to palestra38
Obviously, they need to do a promotional tie-in with Desperate Housewives. Perhaps Dunphy can embrace a naked Nicollette Sheridan. Or vice versa.
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Pennsylvania69
Junior
Posts: 206
Loc: Chester County, PA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 02:06 PM - Post#477
In response to
Yes, it was unbelievably empty at the Palestra again last night.
Is it because this team was written off before the first game? Everyone loves a winner but this is a little unbelievable. I guess Penn has to be picked to win the Ivy's to stand a chance of drawing a large crowd. Even the articles in the DP about the lack of attendance at the games get zero on-line comments.
It looks like a large number of the students have abandoned the team this year. The student section was pretty empty. And, I didn't see any rollouts last night.
The usually number of alums were at the game.
At least, Amy gets to all the games and brings a couple of friends. I don't think that you can fault the Administration for lack of support. When Amy spoke to a group at Irvine on Tuesday night, she made two specific positive references to athletics and encouraged everyone in attendance to catch a game at the Palestra. So much for my concern that Amy would be anti-athletics.
So we have enthusiasm from the school’s chief executive and lethargy from some, but not all, of the students. Go figure.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 02:34 PM - Post#478
In response to palestra38
How does a weak home basketball schedule and roster turnover account for the equally poor attendance at home football games in recent years?
As others have pointed out in previous posts on this subject, the problem of a dropping student interest level doesn't appear to be hoops-specific.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 03:09 PM - Post#479
In response to Chip Bayers
Again, thoughts on Attendance: I have 25 pages of writing due next Friday, along with a 15 minute presentation (solo) on Monday, and a Final on Thursday. And I'm a comm major. I can only imagine what everyone else is doing this week (I however, was at the game, because I'm an irresponsible slacker)
2) Definitely, the most common reaction I've been getting to "are you going to the game?" has been "What game?"... not exactly promising from the P.O.V. of advertising.
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Anonymous
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 03:42 PM - Post#480
In response to The Willow
You're not an irresponsible slacker. You wanted to come to the game. In prioritizing your life you determined that you would be able to get your work done AND spend two hours at the Palestra.
This should be no shock to anyone on this board, but professors at Penn have been assigning books and papers and giving exams for some time now. Today's students either have bad time management skills, study much harder than previous generations or just don't care about Penn sports. My guess would be that last one.
The problem is that if they don't care much about Penn sports (and the evidence is that attendance isn't much better at performing arts activities) they probably don't care much about Penn - except as anything more as a stepping-stone on their way to wealth.
There is something incredibly communal about a game at the Palestra and I think students are missing something by not attending them and it doesn't matter if they have one clue about basketball.
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Anonymous
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 04:03 PM - Post#481
In response to
Very true Howard.
Penn has always been hard. Students have always had a lot of work. Games have always been scheduled this time of year. Two hours a week for a home game will never keep someone from finishing their work.
The difference now is a) the Athletic Department does a piss poor job of letting the Penn community (and Philadelphia in general) know about games (although that isn't much of a difference...the Penn Athletic Department has always been pathetic at anything that has to do with marketing, or anything that has to do with the interests of students or student-athletes), and b) the Penn student body doesn't care about the communal experience because "had a blast at the Palestra heckling opposing players" doesn't really have a place on a resume....that's what it's all about now, which is sad (although it is probably more sad for us than it is for them, because they don't care anyway).
Here's a thought...maybe the alumns who give jobs to the students should have a Penn sports aptitude test to get an interview....that should generate student interest in Penn sports because they can finally find a positive answer to the "What's in it for me and my career" question that keeps them from going to events in the first place.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 04:08 PM - Post#482
In response to Chip Bayers
Apples and oranges Chip. Football attendance is bad because there is little or no tradition of Ivy football at Penn and there is no advancement to the playoffs. Thus, it is meaningless, as well as the fact that it is played on Saturday afternoons, when most people have something better to do in the fall.
Basketball does have great tradition, but it is a tradition based on the assumption that Penn B-Ball is something more than just "Ivy" ball. For years, we got major programs to come into the Palestra, in addition to the Big 5 games that stoked everyone for the Ivy season. Sorry, but Quinnipiac, Drexel and Bucknell, along with Rider, LaSalle and St. Joe's in a down year just doesn't cut it. Simply stated, this is the worst home schedule I can ever remember (and I'm going back to 1974). With the turnover of all the players the students fondly remember...no U, Koko or Toole, not even Schiff, it's going to take a while to get that same kind of personal relationship between the players and the student body. That is when you need good scheduling. To me, this is kind of a "triple witching hour" type of year for the program....new players, not figured to win the league and bad schedule. It will take winning to get the students back.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 04:16 PM - Post#483
In response to palestra38
I don't think Schiff had any more of a following than Begley. Last year's team as a whole wasn't exactly a "must see" lineup, especially with who was starting. The U/Koko/Toole years are outliers more than this team. How often does an Ivy team have two, let alone one, near-NBA-caliber talent? When it comes down to it, it's just very very sad that students don't show up, whether it be due to their workload or just a general apathy. If anything, games during midterms and papers were even more fun for me. It was great to just go out there for two hours, yell at the top of my lungs, and not worry about all my work. Really, is there any better relief from schoolwork than a game at the Palestra???
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Anonymous
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 04:23 PM - Post#484
In response to palestra38
I think it's pathetic that at a school of 10,000 undergraduates and 10,000 graduates that we get the type of draw last night that has been all too common.
Agreed. The schedule is terrible.
Agreed. The team lacks star appeal.
Agreed. The team's lack of hype is a factor.
What NONE of you are recognizing, however, is that Penn basketball just will never be able to meet the impossibly high standards set for it by the teams of the past. The teams of '79 and even '94 that some of you fondly remember did the work of drawing students themselves. Now...I don't think it's crazy to say that I probably know every student at Penn that would roadtrip to a basketball game. That's embarrassing.
As I've said before, the problem is also institutional. I think it's great that Gutmann goes to the games. But, will she let the AD or the RBC hang banners over the walk? Will she allow us to flyer the dorms again?
It's about time that the department forces some change in the administration's hampering policies. It's about time that we cave in to Coach K and agree to matchup outside of the Palestra and in downtown Philly.
Without scholarships, a marketable schedule, conducive administrative policies, or a hyped squad, how can we expect the mildly interested student to attend? I get a handful of students telling me to take them off my season-ticket listserve every time I send out a mailing...
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 04:26 PM - Post#485
In response to palestra38
Do students go to games because of a great tradition? I would argue that Penn football & basketball have great tradition. I'm not going back a century, but when Jerry Berndt came here and started winning Ivy titles & when Al Bagnoli started, the crowds were much larger & the student section much more full than has been the case in the last 5 to 8 years. Student turn out during the Schneider dark days was much better than it has been this year, regardless of the opponent. Going to Franklin Field on a sunny fall Saturday is a great time; the football is entertaining and the team is almost always in contention for the league title. Going to the Palestra is always a great time, greater the more full the place is. You don't need full page ads in the Inky/Daily News for the students to know there is a game on. Temple hoops advertises pretty heavily and doesn't draw well from the general public. Their student section against Arizona State, not an appealing opponent was very full. Even an old f**t like me understands that careerism has grown, but a university with almost 10,000 undergrads ought to have a much better turn out for every game.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 04:35 PM - Post#486
In response to section110
I agree with everyone that the attendence has been really subpar, especially by the students. I also agree that there seems to be a lot of factors behind it. Just out of curiousity, how many students waited in the line this year for tickets? Because it seems to me that even a lot of season ticket type seats were pretty empty.
As to section110's comment above... I would say Arizona State is a better "name" school than any non-Big 5 school we have at the Palestra this year. While it is not a big time basketball power house, atleast it's a PAC 10 team. What happened to our home and home's with Penn State? It was always good to play a beatable Big 10 team at home every other year...
-Mike
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 05:39 PM - Post#487
In response to palestra38
Quote:
Apples and oranges Chip. Football attendance is bad because there is little or no tradition of Ivy football at Penn and there is no advancement to the playoffs. Thus, it is meaningless, as well as the fact that it is played on Saturday afternoons, when most people have something better to do in the fall.
I suppose if you're willing to ignore the fact that they've won 12 out of the last 24 Ivy championships, and repeatedly drew crowds of 30,000 -40,000 in the 80s when they also couldn't advance to the playoffs, you could claim with a straight face that there's "no tradition of Ivy football at Penn."
Quote:
Basketball does have great tradition, but it is a tradition based on the assumption that Penn B-Ball is something more than just "Ivy" ball. For years, we got major programs to come into the Palestra, in addition to the Big 5 games that stoked everyone for the Ivy season. Sorry, but Quinnipiac, Drexel and Bucknell, along with Rider, LaSalle and St. Joe's in a down year just doesn't cut it. Simply stated, this is the worst home schedule I can ever remember (and I'm going back to 1974).
I think you're being very selective in your memories. How is this worse than '01-'02, when the non-conference, non-City Series home schedule was Davidson, FIU, Delaware and Lafayette? Worse than '97-'98, when it was only Rice and Lafayette? Worse than '96-'97 when it was Towson and Lehigh? Worse than '89-'90 when it was Lehigh, Colgate, and Lafayette?
And let's not pretend that the years when relatively recent Big 10 addition Penn State is on the home schedule is some sort of of step up in opponent quality or drawing power. They're a football school with zero basketball tradition and, for the most part, awful teams. So how is this year worse than:
'02-'03 (PSU, American)
'99-'00 (Army, PSU, Lafayette)
'90-'91 (SMU, Navy)
That's seven seasons in the Dunphy era alone with no extra sex appeal to home dates.
The visits from the likes of a Virginia, Wisconsin, or Kansas have been the exception, not the rule, on the home schedule. And it's been rare indeed to get more than one of those kind of "marquee" names in any given year, because unless there are extenuating circumstances (like Roy Williams indulging a retiring broadcaster), major conference basketball schools simply will not do home-and-home contracts with a mid-major.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 06:24 PM - Post#488
In response to Chip Bayers
You are living in a fantasy world if you actually believe that Penn "repeatedly drew crowds of 30,000-40,000" in the '80s. We may have exceeded 25,000 twice during that period, for championship games. Most of the time, the attendance was a little better than it is now. The real point is that you are confusing tradition with fad. The reason this board exists is because alums and students from the '60s to the present have something in common to talk about. To get Penn football "tradition" you have to go back to the '40s, and those alums are disgusted about what happened to Penn football. There simply is no Penn football tradition to speak about---no one cares except when they take in a game.
Basketball is different, whether or not people are getting out to the Palestra----there is more Penn basketball interest than for Princeton, even though Princeton is solidly outdrawing Penn right now. Part of the reason Princeton outdraws us is a larger season ticket base from the community. Part of the reason is scheduling and winning. You are correct that we have had some bad home schedules in recent years, but you are excluding Big 5 games for some inexplicable reason. Usually, we can count on at least one good Big 5 home game. This year, we are on the road to both Temple and Nova, St. Joe's is down and LaSalle is dreadful. No one will come to a Penn home game unless he or she is a season ticket holder or fanatic until the Ivy season starts. That is the reason for the low attendance----don't blame the students. They have no obligation to come....the University has to make it worth their while.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 06:46 PM - Post#489
In response to Mike Porter
As I noted in a reply above, Penn State is no draw. And you simply can't schedule them every year, any more than you can schedule each of the Patriot teams every year. With the city games already there, you don't want to permanently dedicate a 5th available date on the non-conference schedule to an in-state rival.
In fact, Palestra visits by big name schools seem to depend almost entirely on unique connections that can't be replicated. Maryland agreed to a home-and-home a few years ago because of the Gary Williams-Dunphy connection. Wisconsin agreed because of Bo Ryan's roots in the area. Virginia because their AD is a Penn alum. Kansas because it wanted to give a retirement gift to a broadcaster. We only had Notre Dame on the schedule from time-to-time back in the day because of the long-gone Digger link to Penn.
The only other way you can entice a big name school to the Palestra is if they want Philadelphia area recruiting exposure. But you're never going to get schools from the Big East and the A-10 like Syracuse, St. John's, Seton Hall, UConn, Georgetown, or Xavier (for example) to agree to play us at home, because those can get all the Philly exposure they need via their regular season conference schedule against Villanova, St. Joe's, Temple, and LaSalle. We never got Louisville or Cincinnati in the past, and the likelihood of getting them in the future probably decreased exponentially now that they're coming into the Big East. Maybe we'll be able to get BC in the future because of their move to the ACC, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Schools from the other big conferences don't need necessarily need to play Penn to get that exposure, either. In fact, they have a disincentive because year-in and year-out, they're likely to get a much worse RPI hit by risking a loss to us than they will risking one against Temple - which explains ASU. (the mid-major discrimination built into the RPI has been the subject of repeated discussion here in the past). It's a triumph when we can get a Pac-10 team like USC to come here, and usually it happens only because they're in a down cycle when the schedules are being made - which often means a new coach who doesn't need to worry about RPI as much, because he's still in his rebuilding grace period, when the administration and boosters aren't on his back expecting an NCAA at-large bid.
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Stripes
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Boston
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 07:28 PM - Post#490
In response to palestra38
Quote:
there is more Penn basketball interest than for Princeton, even though Princeton is solidly outdrawing Penn right now
Hey 3-8, I'm curious. How do you support the claim that there is more Penn basketball interest than for Princeton?
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 07:31 PM - Post#491
In response to Chip Bayers
Could Penn's insistance on continually alienating itself from the "community" (aka West Philly) also have something to do with it? We're talking just students, but there are more people in Philly than Penn Students...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 07:53 PM - Post#492
In response to Stripes
Well, let's see. We can start with this board. There are at least twice as many Penn regulars as Princeton regulars...if not more. We can look at Penn fan attendance at Princeton compared with Princeton fan attendance at Penn---thousands more Penn fans go to Princeton. We can look at the size of the school and deduce that there are 4 times as many students at Penn at a given time, thus extrapolating over 40 years of relatively equal success, there is a far larger potential body of Penn fans.
I realize that none of this is empirical, but I frankly don't know how to quantify fan interest other than utilizing these observations. Let me ask you....do you think that Princeton has more basketball fans than does Penn and if so, why do you think so?
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 08:02 PM - Post#493
In response to palestra38
Quote:
You are living in a fantasy world if you actually believe that Penn "repeatedly drew crowds of 30,000-40,000" in the '80s. We may have exceeded 25,000 twice during that period, for championship games. Most of the time, the attendance was a little better than it is now.
Check your facts. By 1985, Penn was AVERAGING over 24,000 per game, up from 10,000 at the beginning of Jerry Berndt's Penn career. You can look it up.
Quote:
The real point is that you are confusing tradition with fad. The reason this board exists is because alums and students from the '60s to the present have something in common to talk about. To get Penn football "tradition" you have to go back to the '40s, and those alums are disgusted about what happened to Penn football. There simply is no Penn football tradition to speak about---no one cares except when they take in a game.
No, the real point remains that, as the DP has noted more than once, student attendance at football games has been declining in recent years in almost lock step with student attendance at basketball games, regardless of success or lack thereof by either team. Which reinforces the argument that the overriding factors have nothing to do with tradition or schedule or access to playoffs.
Quote:
Basketball is different, whether or not people are getting out to the Palestra----there is more Penn basketball interest than for Princeton, even though Princeton is solidly outdrawing Penn right now. Part of the reason Princeton outdraws us is a larger season ticket base from the community. Part of the reason is scheduling and winning. You are correct that we have had some bad home schedules in recent years, but you are excluding Big 5 games for some inexplicable reason. Usually, we can count on at least one good Big 5 home game. This year, we are on the road to both Temple and Nova, St. Joe's is down and LaSalle is dreadful. No one will come to a Penn home game unless he or she is a season ticket holder or fanatic until the Ivy season starts. That is the reason for the low attendance----don't blame the students. They have no obligation to come....the University has to make it worth their while.
There's nothing "inexplicable" about leaving out the Big 5 games: they are an immutable piece of the schedule. To effectively counteract the down cycles you'd need ability to predict rape scandals, early NBA departures, and other unknowns 2-3 years into the future, such that you can tell a City Series home game is going to be a dog which needs to be counterbalanced by a marquee major conference foe. Plus a concurrent ability to add said major conference team at will after you've done your long-range soothsaying.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 08:15 PM - Post#494
In response to Chip Bayers
We can go on forever on this...all I will say for now is that (1) 24,000 average for one year I guarantee was skewed by that big crowd at the Harvard championship game (wasn't that the one with the roughing the kicker to give Penn a second chance), and (2) Penn knew it would have LaSalle and St. Joe's at home this year many years ago----all the more reason to try and schedule someone good. It's decisions like last year's decision to dump the Providence return game for the Holiday Festival (which we won in brutal boring fashion) that shows the Athletic Dept doesn't care about its fans. You can't deny credibly that the lack of quality home games is a major factor in the decline of attendance. Whenever Penn plays a quality team, it fills the building. If we have to play some 2 for 1's, so be it. This schedule is terrible, although I will be there every game. Don't wonder, though, why students aren't coming---it has nothing to do with making money in the future.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-02-04 09:12 PM - Post#495
In response to palestra38
Quote:
We can go on forever on this...all I will say for now is that (1) 24,000 average for one year I guarantee was skewed by that big crowd at the Harvard championship game (wasn't that the one with the roughing the kicker to give Penn a second chance),
I think we've now established that you're talking out of your hat on this particular subject. That game was in 1982, Berndt's second year. (34K for the game with "The Kick," BTW).
The attendance figures I gave were for games three years later.
Quote:
and (2) Penn knew it would have LaSalle and St. Joe's at home this year many years ago----all the more reason to try and schedule someone good.
Debate only goes round-and-round if you ignore what the other person is saying. To reiterate: what you're suggesting, apparently, is that two years ahead of time, Bilsky and Dunphy should have known that a) then-hotshot Billy Hahn's regime at LaSalle was going to end in disaster and scandal; and b) Martelli was going to lose not only Nelson this year but Delonte West and not have adequate replacements ready in the recruiting pipeline. Did you know this two years ago? If so, does this foresight also work on stock market picks, and can you share it with the rest of us?
Quote:
It's decisions like last year's decision to dump the Providence return game for the Holiday Festival (which we won in brutal boring fashion) that shows the Athletic Dept doesn't care about its fans. You can't deny credibly that the lack of quality home games is a major factor in the decline of attendance. Whenever Penn plays a quality team, it fills the building. If we have to play some 2 for 1's, so be it. This schedule is terrible, although I will be there every game. Don't wonder, though, why students aren't coming---it has nothing to do with making money in the future.
I can deny it credibly, because I just got through showing you that bad home schedules are not unique to this year. Almost half of the past 15 years have stunk.
If your argument is that we should turn down the Holiday Festival the next time it's offered because we might play poorly but still win it, I'd say your expectations are unrealistic, at best. Providence wasn't even ranked going into last year, so what kind of buzz would there have been to that game beforehand? Are you suggesting that a brutal, boring game at home against them would have been somehow preferable in building fan interest? Or is it merely because you would have gotten to sit in your regular seats to see it?
I agree with you that the athletic department does not appear to be filled with marketing geniuses. But I think the schedule is the weakest piece of evidence for making that case.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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This isn't a Penn problem
12-03-04 02:35 PM - Post#496
In response to The Willow
It's a League-wide problem.
Harvard, on its way to an undefeated football season, had a game televised on YES and NESN against Columbia... and the crowd was so sparse, the broadcasters rarely used any shots of the stands. And if Harvard students had any real school spirit, the Yale prank never would have been able to happen..
Kudos to the Yalies for their inventive card trick, but my guess is that the Yale players would appreciate it if they spent more time supporting their own team during non H-Y games than they did deriding the opposition...
Columbia hosted its own basketball tournament 3 days after a supposed "energized" crowd of 1,500 students packed Levien for "Midnight Mania" but only had about 500 students total show up for the 2-day event (and virtually none for the undercards).
Our schools hold marketing in very low regard. They see marketing and advertising as brainwashing done by sinister corporations to force people to buy things they don't need. This antediluvian crypto-marxist sentiment is the real culprit behind our flagging attendance. There is so much competition for the entertainment-leisure dollar/eyeball, that we need to scream much louder than we do. Don't expect things to change until the league recognizes this fact.
My guess is that there are more sportsfans on campus playing NBA Live or Madden 05 on any given gamenight than are in the Palestra or any other league venue.
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Stripes
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Boston
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Attendance 2,315?!?!?
12-04-04 02:59 AM - Post#497
In response to palestra38
Quote:
Well, let's see. We can start with this board. There are at least twice as many Penn regulars as Princeton regulars...if not more.
I'd say probably 4x as many. But (for some reason) many of the internet-active Tiger fans seem to have stayed with Princetonbasketball.com instead of migrating here, and they are quite active there. So I'm not sure how much weight you should give to that one.
Quote:
We can look at Penn fan attendance at Princeton compared with Princeton fan attendance at Penn---thousands more Penn fans go to Princeton.
Thousands more? Of the 6,102 at Jadwin last year, how many of them were Penn fans? And over time, I'm not sure this one holds water - it sure didn't when Princeton was in the midst of stretches of Ivy supremecy (89-92 and 96-98) and I'm guessing it won't this year.
Quote:
We can look at the size of the school and deduce that there are 4 times as many students at Penn at a given time, thus extrapolating over 40 years of relatively equal success, there is a far larger potential body of Penn fans.
I'll give you this one. But given that imbalance, I'm surprised that it isn't more apparently lopsided. And I don't think you'd ever see Jadwin with only 2,315 fans - even the much maligned Div III game each year draws more than that.
Quote:
I realize that none of this is empirical, but I frankly don't know how to quantify fan interest other than utilizing these observations. Let me ask you....do you think that Princeton has more basketball fans than does Penn and if so, why do you think so?
I guess I think the local fan bases are about the same size - Penn with more students and alumni and non-related fans closer to the Palestra, but with more choices of diversion, too; Princeton with fewer folks, but less else to do. As for beyond the local fan bases, I wouldn't want to comment...I don't want to get Chuck all riled up again. 
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