mrjames
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
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Re: Harvard in NIT
03-14-11 09:06 PM - Post#101070
In response to Howard Gensler
The latter. Even that is a struggle.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-21-04
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03-14-11 10:20 PM - Post#101094
In response to mrjames
It's always been a struggle.
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mrjames
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-11 09:50 AM - Post#101129
In response to Howard Gensler
Penn is a little luckier with it more consistently, especially with the Big 5 to buoy it. Harvard's been doing decently well over the past few years, getting the Michigan and Colorado 2-for-1s, but the problem is that there's always a ceiling. No one wants to play a good mid-major without the name recognition (i.e. not Butler, Gonzaga, Xavier, etc.), because there's no credit to be had for winning a tough game. That's obviously where Harvard finds itself now, without a tough city series to fall back on.
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pennhoops
Postdoc
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03-15-11 10:32 AM - Post#101136
In response to mrjames
Harvard doesn't have basketball name recognition but to try to claim it's anonymous is silly. Jacksonville State doesn't have name recognition. Harvard is Harvard.
A better tack might be that you play in a middling (college) basketball city and an abjectly tiny arena.
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mrjames
Professor
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03-15-11 10:42 AM - Post#101138
In response to pennhoops
My point is merely that Michigan barely beat Harvard earlier this year. It wound up being its best RPI win, and when the media pointed that out, it was usually accompanied by a laugh. If the Wolverines can play a worse BCS team and get more credit, why would they ever schedule Harvard?
Again, I'm not complaining about BCS teams not visiting Lavietes - I have no illusions about the luck required to get the Michigan and Colorado deals. I'm saying that it's tough to get road BCS dates, because the teams you're playing don't get the requisite level of credit for beating you, making it a real no-win proposition for them.
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pennhoops
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03-15-11 11:01 AM - Post#101139
In response to mrjames
It's tough but everyone still manages to do it. You have to pimp yourself, taking guarantee games, squeezing into MTEs and foregoing too many home games. If you want quality teams to come to you they need to be other midmajors. I freely admit that Penn has an advantage over Harvard and the rest of the league in bringing in high majors because of the Palestra but you can't deny that the name brand of Harvard would be a pretty playable chit too. How many discreet articles on Amaker and Harvard did ESPN.com have in the run-up to the playoff? Three? Four? You could easily sell yourselves in a made for TV game or two a year. This isn't the burden of the typical midmajor.
If you look at the top of the Mid Major Top 25 most teams (except Gonzaga) get between two and four shots at a high major; if it's a home game it's a geographical match (G'town at ODU, for instance). My point is that you don't need BCS overload to put together a sound schedule. Hold your nose and take a paycheck, lean on a neighbor for a 2-for-1 (UConn?), hope you have another good team or two in the league... it starts to come together.
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mrjames
Professor
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03-15-11 12:23 PM - Post#101155
In response to pennhoops
That describes this year's schedule and it wasn't enough. 4 BCS teams and a high-quality mid major and it wasn't enough. Gotta go stronger. But maintaining even that level of schedule is tougher than you think.
UNLESS you can get in a good MTE. That's difficult, but if you do, you are set.
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Silver Maple
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03-15-11 12:27 PM - Post#101156
In response to mrjames
OK. I'll bite. What's an MTE?
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mrjames
Professor
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03-15-11 12:34 PM - Post#101157
In response to Silver Maple
Oh, yep, that's probably jargon worth parsing. An MTE is a "multi-team event." You'd probably recognize them as the 3 or 4 game early season tournaments. They're attractive because by NCAA rules, they only count as one "official" game while letting you play 2 or 3 extras beyond the 28 game limit for free.
The number of MTEs was historically pretty small, because you used to be able to play one just once every four years. Then the NCAA removed that rule, allowing you to play one every year, if you so chose, so the number of these things just exploded.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
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Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
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03-15-11 12:37 PM - Post#101158
In response to mrjames
Does the Ivy League still have a rule limiting participation in exempt tournaments?
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-22-04
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03-15-11 12:47 PM - Post#101160
In response to Stuart Suss
I feel like MTE is the new OTA where I felt like I missed the vote on absorbing that acronymn into a sports fan's daily lexicon.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-11 12:53 PM - Post#101162
In response to mrjames
That describes this year's schedule and it wasn't enough. 4 BCS teams and a high-quality mid major and it wasn't enough. Gotta go stronger. But maintaining even that level of schedule is tougher than you think.
UNLESS you can get in a good MTE. That's difficult, but if you do, you are set.
It wasn't enough because Harvard didn't beat George Mason, didn't beat Michigan and got blown out by UCONN and BC and Colorado turned out to not be Top 50 wins. The GW win didn't help at all and Holy Cross, which is usually respectable, was bad this year. Fordham was worse. But switching Fordham and Worcester Tech for two 100-150 schools wouldn't have helped.
I think Harvard scheduled pretty well but scheduling is more than a little luck because Harvard is unlikely to beat a Top 25 team on the road and you don't know where the next level of BCS teams are going to fall. If BC or Colorado were a couple wins better then the Harvard wins would have counted for more. On the other hand, if BC really were a Top 40 team, Harvard may not have won.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
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03-15-11 01:05 PM - Post#101163
In response to Stuart Suss
Harvard had about as good a schedule as they can get and a better one than their gym and fan support warrant. They needed to win the league.
To get at-large consideration, Harvard would have needed to be up there in the conversation all year, not just a late-season RPI curiosity. The list of bubble teams does not grow in the last month. It shrinks.
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mrjames
Professor
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03-15-11 01:16 PM - Post#101165
In response to Brian Martin
HAR got hit by the assumption that it would be impossible to stay in the bubble conversation without winning the league. Glockner had them on bubble watch starting after they won at BC. Palm had them in as an at large at one point after they had lost at Princeton and fell behind by a half game.
They snuck up on a lot of media, but there were definitely some who realized this was a mathematical possibility.
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mrjames
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
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03-15-11 01:21 PM - Post#101167
In response to Howard Gensler
It wasn't enough because Harvard didn't beat George Mason, didn't beat Michigan and got blown out by UCONN and BC and Colorado turned out to not be Top 50 wins.
Have you seen some of the other bubble profiles? On an absolute scale, I agree with your argument, but relative to other profiles, that still stacked up pretty well.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
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03-15-11 02:03 PM - Post#101173
In response to mrjames
Didn't the Brandeis win help?
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Howard Gensler
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Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-11 08:46 PM - Post#101196
In response to mrjames
It wasn't enough because Harvard didn't beat George Mason, didn't beat Michigan and got blown out by UCONN and BC and Colorado turned out to not be Top 50 wins.
Have you seen some of the other bubble profiles? On an absolute scale, I agree with your argument, but relative to other profiles, that still stacked up pretty well.
I went through all the logical contenders and all of them had better resumes, based on the way I graded. You may have graded differently. But when the only Tournament team you've beaten is the one in your own conference (and they beat you twice), you're fighting an uphill battle.
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H78
PhD Student
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
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Harvard in NIT
03-16-11 02:11 PM - Post#101314
In response to Howard Gensler
Either way, it would have been a tough call, because when you're setting a precedent, as it would have been to put a 2nd Ivy team in the NCAA tournament, it's easier when the choice is either clear or "safe".
In this regard, I see the NCAA selection committee as somewhat analagous to a conservative investment portfolio manager who buys a stock like IBM, instead of a newly emerging growth tech company. A second Ivy team, in this case Harvard, was not a "safe bet"
It's further unfortunate for the Ivies that Harvard's low NIT seeding and travel odyssey led to a performance in the NIT that was less that some might have expected or hoped for.
As the Ivy continues to improve its RPI, perhaps that will change for the better in coming years. Until then, a second Ivy team in the NCAA's is not a "safe bet" for the selection committee. Just my opinion.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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03-16-11 03:05 PM - Post#101325
In response to H78
There's another factor here: the selection and seeding processes are both overwhelmingly tilted in favor of teams from the BCS conferences. That's not going to change.
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H78
PhD Student
Posts: 1458
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
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03-16-11 03:40 PM - Post#101336
In response to Silver Maple
There's another factor here: the selection and seeding processes are both overwhelmingly tilted in favor of teams from the BCS conferences. That's not going to change.
Good point. Like they say, "Follow the money". The major conferences have a huge investment in the status quo.
It may be that whatever change may come will be based on the Ivy teams continuing to improve vs. other mid-majors.
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