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Username Post: Iona game        (Topic#12863)
maacballer 
Sophomore
Posts: 160

Age: 33
Reg: 03-23-11
01-15-12 09:55 AM - Post#117195    

have a good feeling about this, played poorly friday and won, we are due, road trip in in order, go hounds

 
Bang Bang 
Sophomore
Posts: 134

Reg: 01-03-07
01-16-12 10:49 AM - Post#117307    
    In response to maacballer

Didn't see the game, but followed on the gametracker. I was happy to see us be even through 20+ minutes. It looked like we had a 5-minute stretch where we struggled to score in the second half which is when they pulled away enough. It seemed like we also struggled on the ft line (54%). Anyone else see the game? Looks like we shot well early to stay with them/pull ahead, and Bobby had another good offensive game.

And to comment on Walker from the last post -- I disagree and think he deserves his start and time on the floor. His size is irreplaceable, and you can't look at points and minutes as the sole factor. If you did, then look at Winbush's 23 minutes and 0 points tonight. Shane has length and he alters shots if not blocks them. And he can stretch a defense out with his shots, although I agree he's been struggling lately. Regardless, we need him out there and mostly on the defensive end for what I said before. He may not be the strongest big man, but you want him out there.

And to defend Patsos too, I though he did a great job leading us back from Fairfield in that second half calling for the full court press. If you keep giving him blame for things that happen on the court, you also have to give him praise when they work out.

 
LoCo2011 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 35
Reg: 01-05-08
01-16-12 12:03 PM - Post#117310    
    In response to Bang Bang

Completely disagree with the points you make... if that's actually how Walker played.... then I'd agree.. but it's not.

Walker does not play in the paint, offensively or defensively (which is why he does not get rebounds that a 6'10" guy should get.. and this irreplaceable-ness that you alluded to is why he is replaceable because he doesn't play like that)

Walker just does not alter shots.. he comes up with a few blocks so everyone thinks he's this great defender, he's not at all. Seriously, watch him next game when teams run screens on him... his inability to know how to switch on screens is absolutely astonishing.. and almost impressive.

Erik Etherly alters shots... Shane does not... Winbush is so lanky that he probably is just as effective under the basketball as Walker is.

Your point about his shot stretching the defense:

It's not effective when he never hits the damn 3 and turns the ball over because he takes the shot. For a period last year and maybe early on this year, he was actually hitting those shots so defenses had to play up on him, but now that he couldn't hit the side of a barn, teams are giving him space and he actually adds nothing to the offense, other than wasting away in no-man's land.

The team plays so so so much better when it's Winbush and Etherly out there (As everyone saw when we pushed the lead from 4 to 18 in the Canisius game, which just happened to be the same time that Walker was subbed out)

I would agree with all the points you make if that was actually how Walker plays.. b/c in theory that's exactly what a 6'10" Center that can shoot the 3 should be doing (altering shots, stretching defenses, etc) but that's not what Walker does and that's why I want him to get 7th or 8th man off the bench minutes.. not starters' minutes.

Patsos has been better this year. I was really impressed with him in the Manhattan game.. just a great response after drawing up such a terrible play in the Niagara game. And I agree that praise needs to be giving as much as blame is, so if Shane Walker ever finally decides to play like he should be able to, I'll be the first one to compliment him, but right now he's hurting the team and that's the bottom line.

 
Rick 
Freshman
Posts: 39

Age: 66
Reg: 11-04-11
01-16-12 01:50 PM - Post#117323    
    In response to LoCo2011

Anyone know when Latham is scheduled to come back? I I Ithought he was going to be on the weekend trip. If he can stay out if foul trouble he at least try's to post up inside.

The Iona game was a tail of 2 halves. 2nd half Iona shot 63% and our shots didn't drop. Hope we have a great student turnout for Thursday night and Sunday afternoon. Siena has played better and we can't afford to come out flat. They played a great game at reitz last year.

 
WOFM 
Freshman
Posts: 92

Reg: 02-24-11
01-16-12 10:12 PM - Post#117368    
    In response to Bang Bang

Maybe Bang Bang has not seen Walker play this year? He used to do all those things, at least once in a while. This year, not so much.

But I would agree, Winsbush had a lot of minutes and very little on the stat line vs Iona. Hard to judge how he played without having seen the game, but the numbers would infer that he was ineffective.

Also agree the Hounds have looked more organized on the floor this year, at least more often than in the past. Not convinced Jimmy has gotten better, could be a matter of the other coaches having more control of game situations? I’ll reserve judgment on that until I can see a few games in person.

But fear not, this team wins the MAAC and gets their second bid ever, Jimmy will get all the credit he can handle, warranted or not


 
maacballer 
Sophomore
Posts: 160

Age: 33
Reg: 03-23-11
01-17-12 08:29 AM - Post#117382    
    In response to WOFM

next to etherly, walker is the best we have, this is not going to change, team nees to win our home games this week

 
LoCo2011 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 35
Reg: 01-05-08
01-17-12 10:28 AM - Post#117387    
    In response to maacballer

that's just not true, but I think I've made my point clear enough in other posts... the only reason I can see for people defending Walker is because they are basing all of their judgment on how he should play b/c he's 6'10", not how he actually does play.

I completely agree that he should do everything that you all suggest he does do and that he should be the best we have next to Etherly but you have to actually watch him play and that just is not true. His performance against the Canisius game was one of the worst performances I've ever seen by a big man.. add that to the fact that he was practically crying on the bench b/c Patsos finally placed him there for the last 8 minutes b/c he was playing like absolute sh.it... and it adds even more reason he should not be getting starter's minutes.

 
Bang Bang 
Sophomore
Posts: 134

Reg: 01-03-07
01-17-12 10:43 AM - Post#117388    
    In response to LoCo2011

I've seen five games this year. I'm not saying Walker is the best big man -- far from -- and I agree he was better earlier this season than later. But I still think he does a better job than any other lineup we could have on the floor without him. Hopefully, he's shooting improves and he stops fading away on mid-range jumpers. We go to a smaller lineup with Winbush in for Walker, and Etherly gets in foul trouble. That's the way I see it. Regardless, I'm enjoying this season a lot.

 
WOFM 
Freshman
Posts: 92

Reg: 02-24-11
01-17-12 03:38 PM - Post#117430    
    In response to LoCo2011

Maybe Walker is focusing on his grades this year and he's distracted??

But seriously, he might be injured? I think it was the Canisius game where he kept grabbing his shoulder on the bench I think?

I would agree he has the ability to be an impact player at this level, but he seems a bit off this year....so far

 
maacballer 
Sophomore
Posts: 160

Age: 33
Reg: 03-23-11
01-17-12 05:15 PM - Post#117451    
    In response to WOFM

we have no other options, go hounds

 
baltimore baller 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Reg: 12-24-10
Iona game
01-17-12 06:01 PM - Post#117458    
    In response to maacballer

Winbush is seriously underestimated. He is a much better player than Walker is currently. Watch him take charges, handle the ball, and do other unsung hero moves.


Edited by baltimore baller on 01-17-12 06:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
maacballer 
Sophomore
Posts: 160

Age: 33
Reg: 03-23-11
01-17-12 09:57 PM - Post#117470    
    In response to baltimore baller

like winbush as well, he cant score though, with etherly walker winbush we are okay upfront, brooks panics and latham is out

 
baltimore baller 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Reg: 12-24-10
01-17-12 10:24 PM - Post#117473    
    In response to maacballer

Not everyone needs to score. Remember that.


 
hound4life 
Freshman
Posts: 49

Age: 34
Reg: 01-01-09
01-17-12 11:22 PM - Post#117478    
    In response to baltimore baller

maacballer - the only reason that makes sense you are giving so much credit to an under-performing, overrated walker is that you are in some form paid/funded by loyola... ONLY ANSWER!

 
LoCo2011 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 35
Reg: 01-05-08
01-18-12 01:10 AM - Post#117481    
    In response to hound4life

"like winbush as well, he cant score though, with etherly walker winbush we are okay upfront, brooks panics and latham is out"

"he cant score though"

"he cant score though"

"he cant score though"

DO YOU WATCH SHANE WALKER PLAY THE GAME OF BASKETBALL?

I don't consider it "being able to score" if you chuck up 7 3's a game and magically hit one of them.. or if one of the 5 layups that should be dunks you put up randomly don't get blocked. Shane Walker cannot score and that is why he should not be playing. I really think we're all smarter than this (I'm talking to you Walker defenders)

I understand what Shane Walker should be doing as a 6'10" big man in the MAAC...

BUT HE'S NOT DOING IT!

 
maacballer 
Sophomore
Posts: 160

Age: 33
Reg: 03-23-11
01-18-12 09:03 AM - Post#117496    
    In response to LoCo2011

not defending walker, just saying we don't have anyone after etherly who is better than him, why don't you start brooks! he would foul out in ten mins and turn the ball over 5 times, winbush is good and he plays alot , good coming off bench in place of walker and ehterly

 
Bang Bang 
Sophomore
Posts: 134

Reg: 01-03-07
Iona game
01-18-12 12:21 PM - Post#117515    
    In response to LoCo2011

LoCo, your argument is that Walker cannot score so he should sit and Winbush should take his place? That Walker is inefficient? There are so many flaws with that, but I'll only point to two stats, since that is your argument:

FG% for this season:
Walker - 39%
Winbush - 27%
3FG% for this season:
Walker - 34%
Winbush - 18%

I appreciate your argument, but you should know that there are some (many?) of us that think Winbush is not the answer for a struggling Walker (as of last 3 games), and there are facts that support that thought, and some that support yours. It's not black and white. I like Walker, but just in his current role. We are undersized with him and not Walker.

Edited by Bang Bang on 01-18-12 12:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
LoCo2011 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 35
Reg: 01-05-08
01-18-12 01:45 PM - Post#117521    
    In response to Bang Bang

I am not defending Winbush by saying he can score. On that stance, I am taking baltimoreballer's approach in that not everyone on the team needs to score.

It's more important to stop the other team from scoring and not wasting away our offensive opportunities. Shane Walker, despite what some of you bizarrely think, does not play good defense and does not help us at all. (If you use his "blocked shots" as a statistic to defend this, I will be furious, blocked shots does not mean good defense)

I really want to find a place that displays APBR metrics.. because I really think that'll help. Hell even something like +/- (a hockey statistic) if there was a way to find that in basketball would help me out as well. Simply put we're a better team when Walker is not eating up 30 mpg (which he has been inexplicably)


Based on the sample size of shots.. the stats you use are kinda questionable as well. Remember a main point to this argument is not Winbush can score (and I actually never said that, I just laughed at the fact that some of you think Walker is a scorer) A main point is that Winbush does not chuck up stupid 3's and randomly shoot the ball whenever the hell he so pleases. I also think that Winbush is a much much better defender and then when we can have him hold the ball at the point, it creates much more opportunities for guys like Olsen, Cormier, and Etherly to get open.... but back to your FG%... you gotta look at total shots taken..

Walker.. 50-127 FG.. and 15-44 3PT (this is better than I expected I will say.. but I still think that this is a product of him having a good November.. when I actually was a believer that Shane had finally turned the corner.. only to see him become worse of a player this year than he was last)

Winbush... 11-41 FG.. and 2-11 3Pt (Winbush is not a good 3 point shooter.. in fact he's terrible, worse than Walker.. but he doesn't put it up as much and he realizes it... Winbush will only put it up if he's open and even then he still misses it. I'm not lobbying for Winbush to go jack up 3's.. not by any means)



Other stats...

Minutes Per Game
Walker 27.8 (472 total)
Winbush 18.4 (312 total)

Shane Walker has played 4 more entire games than Anthony Winbush... 4 more... just remember that as you read the stats below and tell me if you think Shane Walker is four full games better than Anthony Winbush.

Rebounds Per Minute... not Per Game
Walker .21 (103 total)
Winbush .16 (52 total)

(Being fair and putting stats that favor Shane)

Points per minute
Walker .34 (162 total)
Winbush .125 (39 total)

Goes back to my other people can score argument/ Shane started the year off great, but I digress...

Assists per minute
Walker .055 (26 total)
Winbush .067 (21 total)

(4 more full games.. 5 more assists? btw.. our offense tends to give big men assists so that's why I see it as an issue... without looking who leads the team in assists per game this year... Erik Etherly)

Turnovers per minute
Walker .088 (42 total)
Winbush .076 (24 total)

Meh, not big enough of a difference for me.

Steals per minute
Walker .023 (11 total)
Winbush .064 (20 total)

Better defender.....



So I will say that the stats aren't that much different.. and might even favor Shane.. which led me to look into just how good of a start he had..

In the first 9 games of the season (we've played 17 so I split it 9 and 8) Shane Walker had 8 double digit games. In the last 8, he's had 2.

Shane's shooting in the last 5 games (including a decent game against Manhattan).. he was 8-32. Good for 25% from the field. One 4th of the time he's shot the ball, it's had the chance at least to end up in the other team's hands... hurting the team.

Winbush was 6-15 during that same stretch btw. good for 40% from the field.

Winbush needs to be playing more than Walker. and this is the longest post in the history of Loyola message boards.



 
baltimore baller 
Freshman
Posts: 26

Reg: 12-24-10
01-18-12 01:50 PM - Post#117523    
    In response to LoCo2011

What he says. Haha

 
Bang Bang 
Sophomore
Posts: 134

Reg: 01-03-07
01-18-12 03:24 PM - Post#117527    
    In response to baltimore baller

I really liked that post LoCo, mainly because I'm a big numbers guy. I agree Winbush is a better defender at his position than Walker at his, but they can't be switched out. Also agree that Winbush has good value as someone who can bring the ball up on presses. And also agree that Walker has struggled as of lately (I said three, but five is okay to say too).

In light of all this, I'll take a closer look at his play tomorrow night and the next few games. Prepared to eat my own words. But as long as we keep winning, I'll be happy.

 
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