Bear34
Freshman
Posts: 10
Age: 34
Reg: 02-22-12
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02-23-12 04:54 PM - Post#121859
In response to juco24
Why are you on the board?
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Bear34
Freshman
Posts: 10
Age: 34
Reg: 02-22-12
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02-23-12 04:56 PM - Post#121861
In response to juco24
It goes back to your investment analogy, I'll get back at you when I get to a computer.
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Bears03
Freshman
Posts: 10
Age: 33
Reg: 02-23-12
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Agel / AD
02-23-12 05:26 PM - Post#121865
In response to Bear34
Juco24 – I think everyone here agrees that there is more to the college basketball experience than simply winning. Speaking candidly, I was a role player at most during my years - in fact you’d be hard pressed to find my name in many box scores at all. Some of that was due to injury, and most of it a straight up lack of talent, but it sure as hell wasn’t a lack of focus, effort, or determination. Those three things are what every player on the team had in common and formed the bonds that have lasted long beyond senior day.
The majority of players, fans, and alumni will always support Brown, in good times and bad. I’m confident Bear34 is no different. The issue that I respectfully think you’re overlooking (Middlebury may rival College Hill liberals) is that for the coaching staff wins need to be paramount to everything else. There is no second place trophy, and there sure isn't an 8th.
Remember the scene in Goodfellas where the bar owner starts working with Paulie? Any trouble with the cops or deliveries, he can call Paulie. But now the guy's gotta come up with Paulie's money every week no matter what. Business bad? F you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? F you, pay me. Place got hit by lightning huh? F you, pay me.
That’s the same mentality I place on the coaching staff. The players, fans, and alumni will buy in whole heartedly with all their available resources. The coaching staff have the expectation, responsibility, and accountability to win regardless of the myriad of potential excuses. In return, their results will lead to their appropriate reward.
Miller turned the program around from 99 to 05 with league finishes of 7th, 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 4th. He was rewarded with the shot at Penn in 06.
Robinson had two great years in 06 and 07, finishing in 5th and 2nd place with a record 19 wins in 07. He was rewarded with the shot at Oregon St in 08.
Agel has had 4 years so far, with finishes of 8th, 6th, 7th, and a unfortunately it’s looking like a reach goal for 7th this year. His combined record is 38-76 for a .333 win percentage. That’s approaching Happy Dobbs illustrious .322, and I’m not sure that’s a place we want to end up again. Sure there have been injuries this year, but does that also paint the full picture of the 3 years before that? Great recruits are always only one year away, aren’t they? Given these results, what is the appropriate reward?
What’s our outlook for next year? The team is only losing 1 player to graduation, they’ll get a few back from injury or ineligibility, and they’ll get a few new bodies. Great! Agel and co might be able to crack .500 with those tailwinds. But that’s all going to happen no matter who is at the helm. I’d love to focus our collective positive energy to go search out the next Miller, or Robinson, or Donahue, or Amaker. Give them a team to start with, and time to recruit with what’s likely going to be a winning record next year. To use your analogy, those guys were an investment in the long term future of their teams, and given the last 4 years down markets it might be time to review the outlook.
Edited by Bears03 on 02-23-12 05:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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juco24
Freshman
Posts: 83
Age: 34
Reg: 01-17-12
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02-23-12 05:28 PM - Post#121866
In response to Old Bear
Old Bear, the current Midd team is made up of some great players and they are terrific kids. They play so hard and unselfish... A ton of fun.
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juco24
Freshman
Posts: 83
Age: 34
Reg: 01-17-12
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Agel / AD
02-23-12 05:45 PM - Post#121868
In response to juco24
Old Bear, I was watching a Brown game online either this season or last season and Russ Tyler brought up an old Middlebury hoops coach, Gerry Alaimo, who I think is actually more of a Brown guy (I believe he attended Brown before coaching there)... My fellow panther, Dee Rowe '52, has told some compelling stories featuring Alaimo. Within the last decade, Dee Rowe spoke at a Midd hoops alumni dinner held in Alaimo's honor and after an extremely thoughtful/kind introduction of Gerry, Gerry stood up and--humbly--said to Dee: "If BS were pavement, you'd be I-95."
Midd has several other Ivy links--including Gary Walters who coached hoops at Midd for a year and Tony Lupien who went on to coach at Dartmouth.
I like the history, and that's why I follow college hoops so closely.
Edited by juco24 on 02-23-12 05:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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juco24
Freshman
Posts: 83
Age: 34
Reg: 01-17-12
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Re: Agel / AD
02-23-12 06:38 PM - Post#121871
In response to Bears03
Bears03 and Bear34: What are we arguing about?
All I initially pointed out was that Brown will be much better next year, that they won't be at risk for another year like this one, and that they've had terrible luck this year.
That drew Bear34's ire, and I probably should've held my tongue, but reflex got the best of me and I made that post on why sports matter (beyond the W's) and why you can't ever lose sight of that, especially when times are tough. But like you said Bear03 "there is more to the college basketball experience than simply winning" so I don't think that is what we're arguing about.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I THINK we might be arguing about is the state of Brown basketball. I personally believe that the program is better off than you think it is.
I think Brown at full strength would be at or north of 15 wins and in the top half of the Ivy. And I think that they'll be right there next year.
Even if I were qualified to comment on whether Brown does or doesn't need to make a coaching change, I wouldn't do so... I tend to give coaches the benefit of the doubt.
I really do think that all this talk will be a mute point next year, b/c Brown is going to be much better with everyone back (knock on wood that no one gets hurt), no matter who is at the helm.
Edited by juco24 on 02-23-12 06:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Bears03
Freshman
Posts: 10
Age: 33
Reg: 02-23-12
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02-23-12 07:41 PM - Post#121875
In response to juco24
Where I started to lose you was the "100% emphasis on winning has damaging effects on amateur athletes and athletics through college". This isn't little league. In the words of Herm Edwards, you play to win the game. Every single player and coach better be 100% committed to winning, or they don't deserve to be on a D1 court. With attitudes like "we'll get 'em next year!" you get dangerously close to handing out awards for participation.
Now, that said, I agree with your original assumption that Brown will be incrementally better next year. But to echo Bruno's points in the coulda/shoulda thread, in my limited sample size of games I've seen this year I'm unconvinced that we're getting the most out of this team. I'm not calling for the pitchforks just yet, but I think it will be very telling to see what happens next year.
In fact, as the eternal optimist I think if we play a little cleaner, have a better defensive scheme than sitting in a 2-3 zone, and Columbia packs it in after a potential 4th loss in a row to Yale, we could actually pick off a nice W at home on Saturday against a team that was about 5 points a game from being 9-1.
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Bear34
Freshman
Posts: 10
Age: 34
Reg: 02-22-12
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Re: Agel / AD
02-23-12 08:42 PM - Post#121879
In response to juco24
Well Bear03 beat me to the figures. I'll just echo, .333 winning percentage over 4 years......why is a change not needed?
I said mediocre before, but that screams failure......I'm wrong?
I'm saying that my teammates, coaches and I worked hard to change the culture, mentality and identity of Brown, it was 8th when we came to Brown in 99 and it's there once again.
So personally I would like to see the program move in a different direction based on what has occurred in the past four years.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 2147
Reg: 11-23-04
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Agel / AD
02-24-12 11:28 AM - Post#121917
In response to Bear34
As I have said, the departures of Miller and Robinson left Brown with 2 years of virtually no recruits in a 4 year period. It seems to me that Agel has done a reasonable job of digging out of this talent hole. We can speculate whether Brown would be in the top half of the league with Maia and better health, but to what end? You can't argue with B34's statement about a .333 winning percentage over 4 years, but is this a true test of Agel's coaching ability? I don't think that question has been answered either way. I do take some comfort in the fact that kids haven't quit and there is no lack of effort our toughness shown on the floor. I guess I'd vote to give Agel one year to prove himself, but I don't have a vote and this is not an election. it wouldn't surprise me if I were in the minority.
Edited by Old Bear on 02-24-12 11:29 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Bruno March
Freshman
Posts: 6
Age: 25
Reg: 10-05-11
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Re: Agel / AD
02-25-12 01:54 PM - Post#122189
In response to Old Bear
If you look around the league, you will see plenty of teams that have had to deal with injuries. I don't think anyone has had to deal with them to the extent that Brown has, but look at Columbia, look at Cornell, and you'll see coaches who have made the necessary changes to strategy and kept the morale of the team strong despite bad luck. Columbia is 3-8, but I can promise you no one takes them for granted with almost all their losses coming down to the final minute. Kyle Smith has done a great job dealing with the loss of Agho, and do you know where it comes from? Defense. It all starts on the defensive end. Columbia is organized and tenacious on the defensive end. All the kids know where they're supposed to be and they all do a great job of playing help defense and crashing the boards. The result is that they have, based on points per possession, the second best defense in the league. In fact, everyone in the Ivy has put an emphasis on defense, as the entire league ranks in the top half of college basketball in defensive efficiency. Every team except Brown. For as long as Agel has been here, he has failed to get the Bears to play hardnosed defense. They've been outside the Top 280 teams in defense all four years. That's unacceptable. Defense is about effort, strategy, and positioning. Yes, of course it helps to have a big man anchoring in the middle, but even Penn and Cornell are able to play great defense without a big guy clogging up the middle and altering shots. McCarthy and Walker both have the talent to be that guy this year. The crappy defense is the biggest complaint I have and even with the increase in talent next year, I see no reason to believe that Agel will suddenly start focusing on the defensive end.
My other big basketball-related gripe is the injuries. The ineligibility issue seemed to be out of his hands, as does Halpern's mono, but all the other injuries we've seen this year that have kept guys out make me wonder about the conditioning that these guys are doing. We're talking about young guys in their athletic primes. They shouldn't be getting hurt like this. It makes me wonder. I clearly don't have enough information about the specifics of their workouts and practices, but I question the way Agel has them training if a third of the team is always hurt and it takes Dockery Walker a full season to get in playing shape so that he can drop 23 and 17 on Cornell. Also, while I appreciate everything Lundevall and Donnelly have done-- and really it's impressive that they've been able to step up and play-- it's embarrassing that it has had to come to that. Having to borrow players from other teams just to fill a roster? Yes, a lot of it is bad luck, but it's ridiculous what's happened to this team this season.
Finally, I don't like the way he's treated his players this season. That whole dust-up with McGonagill, from what I've read, was ridiculous. From the GoLocalProv article:
"When asked after the game why he did not put his leading scorer and best player back into the game, Brown head coach Jesse Agel replied, “coach’s decision.”
Several sources confirmed that McGonagill had simply asked his coach what he had done wrong to get taken out of the game."
You don't bench your hard-working point guard in a close game for asking why he came out. That makes me think there's a disconnect between the coach and players. From a purely subjective standpoint, I don't think he inspires the guys. You're right that they look like they haven't thrown in the towel, but I don't see them out there wanting it more than their opponents either. At this point, watching them play makes me cringe as it seems like they all are just itching for this nightmare season to end. It's supposed to be fun. It doesn't look fun.
Just my opinion and I understand both sides, especially because you have to credit that he has brought in talent even if it hasn't seen the court yet (though perhaps the assistants played a big role in making that happen), but I think new leadership is needed at the end of the season.
/rant over
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 2726
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-25-12 10:46 PM - Post#122389
In response to Bears03
In fact, as the eternal optimist I think if we play a little cleaner, have a better defensive scheme than sitting in a 2-3 zone, and Columbia packs it in after a potential 4th loss in a row to Yale, we could actually pick off a nice W at home on Saturday against a team that was about 5 points a game from being 9-1.
Well done, man. Like really well done.
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Mark Felt
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 5
Reg: 02-26-12
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Re: Agel / AD
02-26-12 04:58 PM - Post#122600
In response to Old Bear
I think people fail to take into consideration what a toxic environment exists around this team. Agel is generally despised by his players, coaches and those around the team.
His treatment of the players is wholly unprofessional - he is verbally abusive, frequently demeaning and humiliating.
I can't see these guys (or recent grads) reaching into their pockets in a few years when they get a call from the Sports Foundation to support the bball program.
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Brown50
Junior
Posts: 224
Reg: 11-28-04
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Re: Agel / AD
02-27-12 08:41 PM - Post#122821
In response to Mark Felt
If Agel is "despised by his players,coaches etc." why haven't we seen more defections? Some of us recall Brown,Dartmouth,Princeton and Penn having wholesale defections and virtual boycotts by the players in the past.
Also, two of Ajel's assistants played under him at Vermont and are still with him at Brown.
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Mark Felt
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 5
Reg: 02-26-12
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Re: Agel / AD
02-27-12 09:06 PM - Post#122829
In response to Brown50
So let's see...Kalusch, Kane, Kelly, Harris and Gore have all left the program ...did you not notice that there is only one senior this year, who as a matter of fact quit a couple of years ago? As to the assistant coaches, Cieblicki (sp?) didn't stay but a year...
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 2147
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-27-12 10:34 PM - Post#122845
In response to Mark Felt
Well, MF, you've gone to far. Ciplicki went from unpaid at Brown to paid at Vermont, his alma mater. Kane quit before Agel and Kelly and Kaluz couldn't play a lick.
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Mark Felt
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 5
Reg: 02-26-12
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Re: Defections
02-28-12 09:52 PM - Post#122970
In response to Old Bear
Not to belabor the point Bear, but Kane indeed did quit on Agel (as I understand it, he was shamed into it). And I'm not sure why characterizing Kaluz and Kelly as bad players changes the fact that they also quit on Jesse.
I believe that was the question.
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juco24
Freshman
Posts: 83
Age: 34
Reg: 01-17-12
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02-29-12 11:48 AM - Post#123026
In response to Mark Felt
here's a scenario that i've seen happen in my own playing days, at every level, on pretty much every team i played on through college. i'm not saying it is what happened here--i really don't know what happened here...
a coach is honest with a player about his ability and/or where he sees the player fitting in (or not fitting in) in the future. sometimes, the coach's honesty is not what a player believes or wants to hear. the player quits. the coach, the professional, the adult, doesn't go out and share his side of the story b/c he is a) protecting the kid, b) respecting the privacy of their private basketball discussion, and c) probably/hopefully too busy coaching to worry about PR. in explaining why he quit to his friends and family, even if/when the (former) player is able to be objective and tries to truthfully convey what was said behind closed doors, the coach comes across as cruel and/or callous.
as friends and family of the player who quit hear and pass the story along to others, the coach's "cruelty" takes on a life of its own and the coach becomes more and more of a monster. in reality, though, the only "crime" the coach committed was being honest.
again, i have no idea if this scenario applies here, but i bring it up to emphasize my personal belief that it's important to maintain an awareness of the fact that the negative things we hear first, second, third, fourth, fifth hand, might not be fully true (probably somewhere in the middle) and therefore might not be worth perpetuating...
last thought: if you think agel is tough on his players, you should read kevin "moon" mullin's book: student athletes, a guide for the future. oh my goodness, some of those carill stories...
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Bruno
Masters Student
Posts: 690
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-29-12 09:32 PM - Post#123116
In response to juco24
I have heard similar things to how the players feel about Agel.
Listen, Agel's record should be viewed in context of his challenges. That said, there's only so much context you can apply to a 4 year run having won 1/3 of your games. It's been bad.
I really don't think - and have never thought - he was a good choice. But, given what he's teed this team up for next season, I think Brown should see what's there. No doubt, I'll regret this if Brown is 12-16 (7-7) in the league in Agel's big year.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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Brown50
Junior
Posts: 224
Reg: 11-28-04
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02-29-12 10:15 PM - Post#123118
In response to Bruno
I understand that prospective recruits read these sites and I don't think that bad mouthing Agel (true or not) will only hurt his recruiting efforts.
Instead why not talk more about his team's 94 points against Columbia.
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Brown50
Junior
Posts: 224
Reg: 11-28-04
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02-29-12 10:16 PM - Post#123119
In response to Bruno
I understand that prospective recruits read these sites and I don't think that bad mouthing Agel (true or not) will only hurt his recruiting efforts.
Instead why not talk more about his team's 94 points against Columbia.
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