Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12530
Reg: 12-07-04
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10-26-13 11:56 AM - Post#154564
The new seats look nice.
Notables not playing include DNH, Rennard, Louis, and Harrell.
I'll share observations later but Tony is Tony, Dylan Jones looks bigger and more athletic than I expected, and Bagtas looks encouraging.
Forgot to add no Jok either. Plus Howard looks good too.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: d and Blue Scrimmage
10-26-13 02:15 PM - Post#154567
In response to Quakers03
Some encouraging things:
Henry is MUCH bigger and stronger....played great defense. This guy should and will get major playing time.
Doc is also in GREAT shape. Had trouble with Henry playing him, but still got his points. Can score with either hand around the basket.
Hicks is the most dangerous player on the team, but we already knew that.
Bagtas has tremendous ball handling skills---can control with either hand or put it between his legs with a defender right on him. We did not have anyone with those skills. He is small, though, and susceptible to a bigger stronger guard on defense.
Lucas-Perry is by far our best shooter.
Lewis played pretty well. He's a good defensive player and gave fits to anyone he was covering except for Bagtas.
Howard is very intriguing---hit a couple of shots early and appeared to me to be a bit winded afterwards. Strong kid with skills---probably will not play much at first but I see him being a very good player down the road.
Cartwright was Cartwright. Missed some wide open shots, got stripped, and then down the stretch, was the toughest player on the court---hit a 3 pointer at the buzzer to tie it (before the ugliest half-court overtime of all times---looked like a Court 3 Gimbel half court game).
Crocker had a shoulder brace on, but played and hit a pretty unconventional looking shot.
Gunter was bigger and stronger---game about the same.
As '03 said, no DNH (turned an ankle in practice, supposedly will be ready for the season), Louis, Jok.
My impression---we need Brooks on the court. Our best team appears to be DNH-Doc-Brooks-Hicks-Bagt as. Cartwright will certainly start, however, but I am decidedly unenthusiastic about playing 3 guys as short as Hicks-Cartwright-Bagtas or Lewis. We cannot play 3 guards when they are that short.
The Palestra is beautiful...equally as stunning is the new John Rockwell Court, in what was the courtyard separating the Palestra from Hutch---go through the doors that formerly led to the dank corridor to Hutch and miraculously materializing on your left is the new court, in its separate new pavillion. Took a little jog on it and it appears to be somewhat padded and soft in feel. No more injuries on rock hard Palestra court for practice. Surrounding the new court are the training facilites and basketball coaches' offices. The former basketball courts at Hutch now are set up full time for gymnastics on the left facing South, and fencing (awesome fencing surfaces) on the right. Wrestling below. Tremendous varsity facility, although I think that the regular students are woefully underserved with athletic facilities now---1 gym for 18,000 kids?? But I guess students just don't play all that much ball anymore and simply need an exercise facility.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12530
Reg: 12-07-04
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10-26-13 03:27 PM - Post#154576
In response to palestra38
Just one note as I sit watching the football team make what should've been a blow out, interesting, it was Hicks, not Miles, who hit the game tying 3 after just a gorgeous strip of Miles to cut the lead with one minute to go. If Tony isn't first team at least 2 of the next 3 years then something went wrong.
Also agreed in full on Henry. His defense was very impressive.
Also agree on Howard who seemed to get lost at times but you can see what's there.
Bagtas probably was most encouraging. He will have trouble finishing around the basket at this level until he has more experience but as Palestra noted, his handle is sick for a frosh and the side shot seems like it can work.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-26-13 03:32 PM - Post#154577
In response to Quakers03
The other point about Bagtas is his brilliant court vision. He made three consecutive interior passes from the top of the key to a teammate slicing into the lane. Each time he passed to the spot just as his teammate made his cut. Only one led to a bucket, but that wasn't his fault.
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QuakerBB
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 3
Age: 50
Reg: 06-09-13
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10-26-13 04:42 PM - Post#154583
In response to LyleGold
Agree bagtas and Howard looked good. Bagtas is pg of now present and future. Howard is a stat sheet stuffer.Hicks has to take better shots he took more shots then all his teammates combined awful shot selection.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: d and Blue Scrimmage
10-26-13 04:43 PM - Post#154584
In response to palestra38
My impression---we need Brooks on the court. Our best team appears to be DNH-Doc-Brooks-Hicks-Bagt as. Cartwright will certainly start, however, but I am decidedly unenthusiastic about playing 3 guys as short as Hicks-Cartwright-Bagtas or Lewis. We cannot play 3 guards when they are that short.
Well, that is music to my ears. The question becomes who would fill the backup minutes for DNH and Doc. You have to figure at least 20m and more likely 30m. Louis, Gunter, Jones, and Winfield (if healthy) would appear to be the only choices with Louis probably getting the bulk. BTW, what’s wrong with him?
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: d and Blue Scrimmage
10-26-13 05:20 PM - Post#154585
In response to palestra38
P38 where did you hear it's an ankle with DNH? I heard something else. Louis apparently has a hamstring problem. As for Rennard and Harrell what else is new?
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gopenngo
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-30-06
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Re: d and Blue Scrimmage
10-26-13 05:29 PM - Post#154587
In response to Condor
Henry's defense was good today, but his offense was not. He still has trouble finishing at the rim, and missed most of his jumpers. Hitting threes will be too much to hope for, I guess. If he's starting with Doc and DNH, does Doc step out and take some threes instead of Henry? Or would the guard tandem (Miles and Tony?) be the only perimeter threats?
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Red and Blue Scrimmage
10-26-13 07:14 PM - Post#154594
In response to gopenngo
Nice to see P38 is in mid-season form so quickly - I already disagree with him. Based on today, I do not see Penn's best 5 as DNH-Doc-Brooks-Hicks-Bagt as as that group will be unable to spread the court - the only legitimate 3-point shooter out there would be Hicks and Bagtas will have little room to drive because the lane will always be clogged. Maybe Brooks could defend a few wings on the schedule and he will cause some matchup troubles for some wings on the offensive end, but he doesn't handle the ball like a wing and this can't even be a discussion topic until Louis is healthy and Jones gets a little more experience.
As for the game itself, it ended 42-42 (two 15-minute halves of running time). The blue team was Lewis, Hicks, Howard, Dougherty and Gunter with Troutt off the bench. The red team was Bagtas, PLP, Cartwright, Brooks and Jones with Crocker off the bench. And Jones sat in the second half with a minor injury. DNH, Louis, Winfield, Harrell, Rennard and Jok DNP. I believe DNH is due back the soonest, then Louis and Jok. Not sure what's up with the other guys. Cairns and Esprit were in civvies in the stands. Keelan has gotten injured again and hopes to avoid surgery so he's essentially taking the year off. Don't know what's up with SImeon.
I kept minimal offensive stats and am off by one point on each side so I screwed up somewhere, but this will give you a basic idea:
BLUE:
Lewis: 3-5 1-2 (3) 0-0 7
Hicks: 5-11 2-4 (3) 4-4 16
Howard: 1-5 0-2 (3) 0-0 2
Dougherty: 4-7 0-0 (3) 1-2 9
Gunter: 1-3 0-0 (3) 2-2 4
Troutt: 2-4 2-3 (3) 0-0 6
Team: 16-35 5-11 (3) 7-8 FTs (I have 2 points too many here)
RED:
Bagtas: 5-9 0-0 (3) 0-0 10
PLP: 4-7 2-4 (3) 0-0 10
Cartwright: 2-8 2-5 (3) 3-4 9
Brooks: 3-9 0-0 (3) 1-2 7
Jones 1-4 0-0 (3) 0-0 2
Crocker: 1-1 1-1 (3) 0-0 3
Team: 16-38 5-10 (3) 4-6 FTs (I'm missing a point here)
PS: One additional note - recruit Mike Auger was at the game.
PS2: In the women's R&B, even without Keiera Ray (recovering from surgery) and Alyssa Baron rounding into shape after being in a boot, the team continues to look better. 6-3 freshman Sydney Stipanovich from St. Louis, the niece of former Missouri/NBA player Steve Stipanovich, looks like a future star. She's got hands, touch, sees the court and scored in a variety of ways. Probably the most impressive freshman R&B appearance from a woman I've ever seen.
Edited by Howard Gensler on 10-26-13 07:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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10-26-13 07:58 PM - Post#154597
In response to Howard Gensler
Where was Stu with the official stats?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-26-13 08:10 PM - Post#154598
In response to Old Bear
Good point--I did not see Stu.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: d and Blue Scrimmage
10-26-13 08:12 PM - Post#154599
In response to Howard Gensler
PS 3---a very competent all female refereeing duo handled the men's scrimmage. Also a first in my recollection. Still, why couldn't they stay to ref a real overtime. Was this a union thing? That half court overtime reffed by Jerome with a broken whistle was beyond lame.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 06:25 AM - Post#154604
In response to palestra38
Very encouraging to hear that Tony Bagtas can play a little defense. That's been a question I've had for awhile.
I don't have too much concern about his size. He knows how to finish in the lane, something Zack Rosen didn't figure out until junior year.
Sounds like Jamal played decently as well. We know he can defend. Between the two of them we may see a major upgrade in pg play this year which to me was the number 1 problem last year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 06:50 AM - Post#154605
In response to AsiaSunset
Bagtas will cause trouble on the ball because he has extremely quick hands. The question is can he stand up to getting posted up. I thought the most encouraging aspect of the game was the defense Brooks played on Doc. At this point of his development, Dougherty is able to score with Zoller-like efficiency inside the paint. Yet Henry clearly bothered him. Assuming DNH is healthy, Penn can put up a kind of front line that you see in top-50 teams. Yet Howard calls for 3 guards instead. How do you see the way we play that critical "3" position?
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 07:24 AM - Post#154606
In response to palestra38
I think we play with 3 guards almost 100% of the time with Matt Howard (the closest to a hybrid) getting more minutes at the 3 as we get into 2014.
I don't see Brooks playing the 3 ever or Greg Louis for that matter.
We really don't have a legitimate small forward on this team who has earned time. Esprit is gone and Harrell just hasn't practiced.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 07:53 AM - Post#154607
In response to AsiaSunset
OK, I just disagree with both of you. No one can deny that Henry Brooks is one of the top 5 players on this team. He would create matchup nightmares for other teams. I liked what I saw from Howard yesterday, but doubt he is nearly ready for major minutes. So the choices are 3 bigs or 3 guards. You go with 3 guards.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 08:09 AM - Post#154609
In response to palestra38
Brooks is going to play a lot. DNH can't stay out there for 35 minutes. Somebody is always going to pick up two quick fouls. He's the first guy in off the bench and will play starter like minutes, but not as a small forward.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-27-13 09:06 AM - Post#154611
In response to palestra38
But what exactly is the matchup nightmare? What would Brooks do against a smaller quicker player that would give us an advantage? The best thing he does on offense is premised on the big who is guarding him not being willing to move away from the interior when he floats away to hit jumpers. I think he would actually have considerably more trouble doing that against A smaller player.
You say that we should make the other team react to us, but I don't think you'd see much of a reaction at all if we tried this. I think you'd see teams keep playing 3 guards against us like they usually do, and having success with it.
The fact that he had success guarding Doc goes the other way for me. That's why he should be guarding 4s and 5s. If he'd defended a guard, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 09:14 AM - Post#154612
In response to SomeGuy
Until we see it in a game, we have no idea how it would work. I want to see it. We can always play zone when in that lineup.
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Chuck
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-27-13 11:21 AM - Post#154616
In response to palestra38
I'll be happy if Jerome is able to construct an effective offensive scheme that incorporates both Doc and DNH effectively. I really don't see how Brooks helps if the other two guys are on the court. His 15' jumper isn't what we need from a 3 and his rebounding is dreadful. We're still missing a real wing player/SF...
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