palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-31-14 04:20 PM - Post#168777
In response to Charlie Fog
Not the Miller days, but the Miller recruits. He recruited 2 real point guards, some really good swingmen and a really good power forward. Only his centers were a bit lacking, but that is as much due to injury as anything else. Miller himself was a basket case who drove 4-5 guys out of the program and was close to insane by the time he was fired.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-31-14 04:36 PM - Post#168781
In response to palestra38
Reilly, Schreiber and Darren Smith were the last group of Fran Dunphy recruits. They played as freshmen under Miller, but were recruited by Dunphy.
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Quakermaniac81
Junior
Posts: 207
Reg: 02-14-06
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03-31-14 04:38 PM - Post#168783
In response to palestra38
I find it very painful to watch Miller enjoy success at this level, albeit as an assistant. I wish him professionally, nothing but the worst. It is my hope that he never again head coaches at Division I....
Glenny: The Program Slayer
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Quakermaniac81
Junior
Posts: 207
Reg: 02-14-06
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03-31-14 04:40 PM - Post#168784
In response to Stuart Suss
Darren Smith was the last outstanding Dunphy recruit. He had a very impressive freshman season and suffered a freak/awful injury at the start of his soph season and was never again the same player. Reilly and Schreiber were part of "Dunphy Left The Cupboard Bare" frankly...
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Glen Miller
03-31-14 05:08 PM - Post#168789
In response to palestra38
But again, defense is half the game. Belcore is the only guy in the group who was even an average Division I defender, IMO. You can't win that way. We now pine for Belcore's defense, but I don't think he was even as good as Eric Osmundson on the defensive end, let alone Jabber, Schiffner, Bowman, Jordan, or Allen, just to name some of our primary perimeter defenders of past years.
And we haven't had anyone close to Steve Danley since he left, IMO, on the defensive end on the interior, either.
So while there were some nice players (and one tremendous player) in that group who did some very good things, I don't see them as being any more competitive for a title than they were in Rosen's senior year (when, frankly, a lot of stuff had to break right at the end of games just to get as close as they came).
As for how I "remember" the level of recruiting under Miller, I was saying this sort of thing from his first class. I was excited about Bernardini on offense, because we hadn't had a player come in and score like that in a while. But back then I kept asking who in the class projected to be a plus defender.
Edited by SomeGuy on 03-31-14 05:10 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Glen Miller
03-31-14 07:06 PM - Post#168792
In response to SomeGuy
Yeah yeah yeah, name one guy we have right now who would take an offensive foul to win a game like Bernardini. He made himself a good defensive player and when not injured, he might have been the best player overall in the League. Eggleston was a good defensive player at our level, and Belcore was very very good as you said. That team was miles ahead of what we have now...on both sides of the ball.
And that was my point.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-31-14 07:08 PM - Post#168793
In response to Stuart Suss
True, but Dunphy left and Miller had to go preserve the recruiting. That's always what happens when there is a post-season coaching change.
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PennHoopsFan
Masters Student
Posts: 633
Loc: Mid-Atlantic
Reg: 02-23-09
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Re: Just a Thought . . .
03-31-14 07:43 PM - Post#168795
In response to palestra38
Also Belcore, Bernardini, and Rosen were a core group of leaders who themselves were also very coachable. They really bought into the Coach's team-first approach and emphasis on defense. The entire team followed their lead. Rosen especially was a very capable leader who inspired all the other players, and his absence has left a gaping hole in team cohesiveness. Regardless of whether Coach Allen is replaced, we really need to be looking for Rosen-like qualities of coachability and leadership potential in our recruits.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Glen Miller
03-31-14 08:29 PM - Post#168798
In response to palestra38
If your point was just that that team was much better than the current one, I heartily agree. I was struggling with the more general statement about Miller's recruiting -- that one team is unfortunately the outlier in the Miller/Allen years.
Bernardini was a heady defender in the end, which is fine when it is in conjunction with more of a stopper type. I'm not so sure he was ever best player in the league material defensively, but we'll never know for sure.
I do like that you are now playing up Eggleston after telling us for a whole year that he was totally negligible.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Glen Miller
03-31-14 09:19 PM - Post#168799
In response to SomeGuy
I never said he was negligible, nor did I knock his positives, which were certainly not negligible. What I said was that I thought they would be better the year after he left...because I thought Bernardini, who had been injured and was coming back for a 5th year, was a better player. But as a solid defender, very good rebounder and a nice 4th option on offense, he was a good player. I didn't think he had the game to be a top division European player, which is the most negative I ever was with him. I just didn't put him in a halo as many here did. But he's a helluva lot better than anything we have now.
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Penn94
PhD Student
Posts: 1461
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-31-14 10:48 PM - Post#168801
In response to palestra38
That 1 winning season was all Miller recruits and virtually every major recruit of his except for Rosen and Eggleston played hurt for a majority of his Penn career.
Miller Year 1: Reilly, Schreiber and Darren Smith. 3 good recruits, Reilly in particular. All were hurt for all or most of their careers.
Miller Year 2: Gaines, Eggleston, Bernardini, Cofield and Turley. A really really good class.
Miller Year 3: Rosen, Belcore, Howlett and Loughery. Howlett and Loughery hurt for most of their careers, Rosen and Belcore (hurt a lot) almost take the team to a title.
You look at those 3 years and were it not for injuries, they would have won a title. A lot of good players there who knew how to play. The team that almost won a title was Rosen, with a crippled Bernardini and beat up Belcore. You can blame Miller for injuries or not, but he was a much better recruiter than you seem to recall. Just about everyone there, even those who transferred or got injured, were good players.
Oh my. So this is what it's come to. Penn basketball is in such bad shape, it's melted P38's brain. Why not just type that Penn would have won the title under Miller if it won more Ivy games than everyone else in the league.
Penn would have won the title were it not for injuries? And you base that on what? All the Ivy titles Miller previously won with his own non-injured recruits? All of his coaching positives that what, CAUSED many of the injuries to his players due to his training routines? The way he managed games? The way his players just looooved playing hard for him?
I love reading your posts P38, but you seem to think that talent is the only thing that wins titles. No nod to coaching, leadership (both coach and captain), chemistry, role clarity, offensive and defensive deisgn, etc etc etc.
I've never understood the animosity toward Miller. He was clearly the wrong choice...that was obvious from minute 1, and he was just the unwitting pawn in Bilsky's attempt to prove that Penn didn't need Dunphy to win Ivy titles. It failed miserably. This was Bilsky's play that backfired. Miller has done nothing before OR AFTER to show that he has any capability to be a HEAD COACH of a team that has success. He lucked into a few good years at Brown thanks to one recruiting class. He's been valuable at UConn, I'm sure, but he's not the HC there, so who really cares?
Some people are never destined to succeed at the pinnacle of their profession. At least Miller knows he can't ever be a successful head coach. Congrats to him for finding a niche of a successful assistant for a good program. Won't change his legacy of killing Penn hoops.
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Redfish
Masters Student
Posts: 767
Loc: under a bridge in Phoenix...
Reg: 11-26-04
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03-31-14 11:03 PM - Post#168802
In response to Penn94
stop.
He's an assistant at UConn. That's all.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 587
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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03-31-14 11:06 PM - Post#168803
In response to Redfish
I'm pretty sure that's what he is saying.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-01-14 01:01 AM - Post#168808
In response to Penn94
That 1 winning season was all Miller recruits and virtually every major recruit of his except for Rosen and Eggleston played hurt for a majority of his Penn career.
Miller Year 1: Reilly, Schreiber and Darren Smith. 3 good recruits, Reilly in particular. All were hurt for all or most of their careers.
Miller Year 2: Gaines, Eggleston, Bernardini, Cofield and Turley. A really really good class.
Miller Year 3: Rosen, Belcore, Howlett and Loughery. Howlett and Loughery hurt for most of their careers, Rosen and Belcore (hurt a lot) almost take the team to a title.
You look at those 3 years and were it not for injuries, they would have won a title. A lot of good players there who knew how to play. The team that almost won a title was Rosen, with a crippled Bernardini and beat up Belcore. You can blame Miller for injuries or not, but he was a much better recruiter than you seem to recall. Just about everyone there, even those who transferred or got injured, were good players.
Oh my. So this is what it's come to. Penn basketball is in such bad shape, it's melted P38's brain. Why not just type that Penn would have won the title under Miller if it won more Ivy games than everyone else in the league.
Yeah that's pretty much my exact reaction. P38 - always appreciate your passion, but no. Just no.
Miller was a complete and total disaster. Yes he recruited some quality players (Rosen, Eggleston & Bernardini in particular), but frankly his methods were counter productive, he had a crappy attitude, and his players seemingly didn't like playing for him. Oh that and the team was awful when he coached it with his players.
As much as I also like those players, frankly there weren't enough of them to win a championship. Injuries are part of the game... Harvard lost a key player this year in a starting center. How did that work out for them? Heck it wasn't injury, but Harvard lost 2 starters and their best player last year and they still won a tournament game! You're right that recruiting is key, but Miller wasn't a great recruiter. Heck on paper Coach Allen had recruited better than Miller before this year. Of course we know what "on paper" is worth... But bottom line, I know it's bad, but it still isn't "Miller was an awesome recruiter" bad.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-01-14 06:36 AM - Post#168809
In response to Mike Porter
Hey guys, I think you're not reading my whole post above---I said that Miller was virtually insane, melted down and destroyed the team. I never said that he was anything but a disaster here.
Except that he recruited better players than what we have now.
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fdiapmf
Masters Student
Posts: 590
Reg: 08-03-05
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Glen Miller
04-01-14 08:30 AM - Post#168810
In response to palestra38
Guys, literally no one cares about this. Stop
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-01-14 10:09 AM - Post#168813
In response to palestra38
An interesting and complex question. Relative to the rest of the league, I think it is probably true that Miller recruited better than Allen (though it is kind of close). For a little bit of "data," Mr. James rated 3 of Miller's 4 classes as best in the league (based on what the recruiting ratings said). Of course, that 4th class was worst in the league.
According to Mr. James, Allen has only recruited the best class once -- 2013. Of course, this group didn't look nearly as good as the 2012 group as freshmen. Hopefully, we'll see that traditional freshman to soph jump from them.
Those are relative to the league rankings though -- I actually think Allen may be doing better than Miller relative to the rest of the division one landscape, at least as far as the services are concerned. Until next year's class, which I presume rates very low (another bad sign regarding perceptions of what is going on at Penn -- it's probably not a coincidence that Miller brought in a final very weak class as he was in the process of imploding).
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Glen Miller
04-01-14 10:27 AM - Post#168814
In response to SomeGuy
On many occasions, I've expressed some concern that Penn was "chasing the ratings," so to speak.
Matt Howard was a perfect example. Other schools that were interested had started to backpedal, but Penn pushed and got him. Henry Brooks is another. After his injury all the BCS interest evaporated, as did other offers, but Penn stuck with it and got him. Same with PLP. The scouting services never really adjusted their initial ratings, so it looked like Penn was getting high quality recruits, but the offers commensurate with those ratings were long gone.
The ratings work on average, because sometimes you go after underrated guys and sometimes you go after overrated guys. But if you exclusively fish in the pool of guys who are lesser prospects now than they were as juniors or after their summer AAU ball, you're going to have a disconnect between ratings and performance.
Those concerns really have come to fruition now. Penn's bench is historically bad. Maybe this year's recruiting class might finally be one that is underrated, but that's only because it can't be overrated.
I imagine that Jerome could find an assistant job somewhere. Or maybe Penn could transition him into another role within the AD's office to soften the landing. Regardless, he can't continue as the men's basketball coach. This program is crumbling under his watch.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-01-14 10:31 AM - Post#168815
In response to mrjames
It's just so frustrating waiting for Bilsky to go. Calhoun is waiting to act until he leaves and I don't blame her. I just wish the Administration cared enough to tell Bilsky that it's not the end of the world if he leaves a few months early due to a crisis in the school's signature program.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21261
Reg: 12-02-04
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04-01-14 10:37 AM - Post#168816
In response to Penn90
The Zero fiddles while (Je)Rome burns?
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