The Quad
Sophomore
Posts: 137
Reg: 12-16-04
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01-12-15 06:34 PM - Post#179458
Tony Hicks is undoubetdly Penn’s most talented player. And other than DNH early in some games, no one else can reliably create his own shot
Towards crunch time vs. Princeton, no one else on the team was scoring and the shot taken were not good shots. None of the freshmen were likely to score except perhaps Auger off of a miss. Matt Howard looked great in spurts but not at game’s end. DNH got the ball once and unfortunately could not be productive.
Tony rightfully tried to take over the game himself and was unsuccessful since the Princeton team was keying on him and the offense was stagnant. Yes, it would have great for Hicks to be successful, but in this game he was not, except for the two lay-ups with those darned missed foul shots.
What was lacking was a reliable and preferably experienced 3rd or 4th option other than DNH & Hicks. Perhaps it will be Matt Howard once his shot improves, or a Sam Jones once Jerome shows more confidence in him even when Jones misses some shots, or Antonio Woods who may improve in crunch time. The 3rd or 4th option should have been some experienced or injured players who because of injury or whatever reason are no longer on the team: pick from Brooks, Harrell, PLP, Lewis.
Hopefully Hicks and the team will learn and improve and keep poised—this is a very, very young team, with only two to three established players, none of whom have had winning older teammates to learn from.
Yes it’s incredibly frustrating losing a big lead to a beatable Princeton team much like the Wagner game. Yes it’s hard to watch Penn’s program deteriorate. Yes, it’s tough watching a Penn legend in Jerome Allen damage his legacy.
But give Tony credit for improving his attitude this year, for keeping out of foul trouble for much of the game, for his ESPN-like Top 10 three pointer at the end of the first half, and for trying to be a leader. On Penn teams with more support and experienced players, Tony Hicks could have been an all time great. Until there is another option, such as better teamwork, coaching or whatever, enough with the unrealistic Tony Hicks bashing.
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gopenngo
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-30-06
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-12-15 07:11 PM - Post#179460
In response to The Quad
Amen.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21369
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-12-15 08:17 PM - Post#179463
In response to The Quad
It's the same old story with Hicks if you revisit most of his games against Princeton.
For the first part of the game, he'll regularly beat his man and either drive the lane with ease or pull up for an easy jumper.
At some point in the 2nd half Princeton throws the kitchen sink at Tony once he gets past the guard and he gets shut down.
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tguru
Masters Student
Posts: 409
Reg: 01-10-05
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-12-15 08:35 PM - Post#179464
In response to gopenngo
Amen.
That's fine, but the point position this year must go to Woods and Foreman for better or worse. Hicks has demonstrated he doesn't belong there.
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gopenngo
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-30-06
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-12-15 08:53 PM - Post#179465
In response to tguru
Exactly. He hasn't been groomed to be the PG; this year it's been Foreman and Woods. Maybe he could be PG if he actually had a shooting guard to take the pressure off him. After a whole season of Woods and Foreman as PG, sometimes both together with Tony, Jerome sat both and left Tony to try and win the game by himself.
Was Crocker supposed to be the PG? SG? Against Princeton he was neither, which is understandable because he's played very little this season. And Matt Howard has not been groomed to be the SG, and he certainly did not look like one down the stretch.
At the end it was all on Tony. By the coach's design.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-12-15 09:07 PM - Post#179466
In response to gopenngo
Crocker often operates as the PG in the half court offense when he is in the game, IMO. Not sure what the intention was in this case (maybe just to have a more experienced ball-handling option in the game just in case). Kind of the Klatsky/Copp role helping out Toole, Begley, or Oz at point with the game on the line.
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gopenngo
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-30-06
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-13-15 01:34 AM - Post#179489
In response to SomeGuy
In a futile TV search for college basketball tonight (it's apparently still College Football Night in America), I came upon CBS Sports and Jon Rothstein's "One-2-One" with Larry Brown (now coaching SMU). Excellent segment. What really struck me was Brown's response to Rothstein's question about the difference between coaching college kids now and coaching them in the 1980's.
Brown said it's the kids' perception of criticism vs coaching. "Back then" it was all accepted as coaching. Now a lot of kids see it differently.
And then it hit me. Jerome and Tony. Jerome's mini-tantrums during every other time-out. Tony's clear indifference late in the LaSalle game. Tony being placed in the position where the entire team's fortunes are on his shoulders.
I don't know if the Rothstein-Brown piece is still available, but it's almost worth the trouble just to hear Brown say that Jay Wright saved his life.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1909
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-13-15 01:34 PM - Post#179518
In response to gopenngo
I agree with The Quad on this. Hicks clearly has talent - athleticism and skills. In fact, he may be one of the better talents that we've had in a long time.
The question that is getting raised is whether he makes good decisions and plays with heart. The problem in this case is that it is impossible to distinguish whether the coach or player is the key factor in the poor decision making. Given that no other PG other than Rosen has ever shown themselves to be a good decision maker under Allen, I am inclined to blame the coach. Add to this that Hicks is clearly having to play a new role.
I am content to say that Rosen was a once in a generation decision maker. Even under his watch, I wasn't impressed with the coaching in of itself. All I ever saw was them clear out for Rosen and then he would hit very difficult shots. But I couldn't criticize the coach then because it actually worked.
Under Dunphy, we had a consistent chain of years where there were always several good decision makers on the team. Is it because he recruited smarter players or is it because he coached them better? Either way, we need to blame this situation on the coach after several years of evidence that Jerome is not lifting the team in this respect.
So I say lay off of Hicks too. He is our best player and I accept the fact that he cannot single-handedly solve the coaching in the way Rosen did.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 02:38 PM - Post#179520
In response to Penndemonium
Hicks' role may have changed in degree, but he's spent a lot of time with the ball in a PG type of role throughout his time at Penn.
We've hit the stage where he's the guy controlling the ball with the game on the line, just like Miles controlled it the last couple of years. Maybe "control" isn't a good term for it, but I'm not sure there really is a better option than having our upperclassman guard handle the ball in that situation. He's still learning what to do in that situation, and it takes practice.
Losing the lead Saturday was frustrating, obviously, but all the metrics said that was a game we would lose. Taking it to them for 27 minutes is encouraging in a sense, even though it doesn't feel that way. Again, there are positives to build on if we want to build on them.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-15 02:58 PM - Post#179523
In response to SomeGuy
We had a 15 point lead with 13 to go and disintegrated. There is nothing good to take away from a game in which at that point we must have had a 90% chance of winning. That is the metric I care about. And that is all coaching.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 05:53 PM - Post#179541
In response to palestra38
Except that you thought we came in with basically no chance of winning. Didn't the coach and the team drastically exceed your expectations for the first 27 minutes? Isn't that a good thing in some sense?
Work with me here -- I'm trying to make you feel a little better.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-15 06:02 PM - Post#179543
In response to SomeGuy
This was worse than losing wire to wire. We showed that we were a more talented team than Princeton, which frankly, could do only one thing--drive wildly down the lane and get the call. The complete loss of composure when we had the 15 point lead and then made 3 straight turnovers while Princeton was left open for 2 "3"s and 2 sets of wild drive foul shots was gruesome. All we had to do is what we were doing---get the ball into DNH when they came out to our dribblers and take wide open shots when they collapsed. I don't know if we even bothered to work 20 seconds off the shot clock from the 13 minute mark on--just wild bad shots and turnovers. Sorry, I don't feel better.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 06:47 PM - Post#179549
In response to palestra38
Actually, at the 13 minute mark we were up 14, and we had the ball for at least 29 seconds on three of our next six possessions.
First possession -- 32 seconds (before Dylan Jones' turnover). Second possession -- 29 seconds (Woods missed a 3).
The next two were short, but we did get it in to DNH. He turned over the 1st (9 seconds) and missed a layup on the 2nd (18 seconds).
Hicks got to the line quickly in our 5th possession and scored one.
Then a 31 second possession ending in a Hicks turnover.
While Penn has had three 29 second possessions out of six (and no ugly Hicks to the basket possessions), the lead is now down to 5 because during that 3:30 Weisz hit two threes and assisted Hazel on another. Because Weisz, and not Hicks, is obviously the most talented player in that game.
From there, it was the freshmen and Howard, not Hicks, who made bad decisions. A series of short possessions ending in turnovers or quick misses by Foreman, Sam Jones, and Woods (with two quick Howard misses plus a turnover).
So by the time Hicks started running the show, the lead was already lost. Admittedly, Hicks turned it over twice down the stretch and missed some shots. He also scored to give us the lead back at 65-64, scored to tie the game at 67, and got the rebound that started us down the court to get Howard's quick basket for our final lead (71-70).
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fdiapmf
Masters Student
Posts: 590
Reg: 08-03-05
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Tony Hicks—enough already
01-13-15 06:48 PM - Post#179550
In response to palestra38
There may be 1 or 2 people 'bashing' hicks, the vast majority of the board likes him, and empathizes with the situation he is in. Remember there were Dunphy and Onyekwe bashers on this board too.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3783
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-13-15 06:53 PM - Post#179552
In response to SomeGuy
Except that you thought we came in with basically no chance of winning. Didn't the coach and the team drastically exceed your expectations for the first 27 minutes? Isn't that a good thing in some sense?
Work with me here -- I'm trying to make you feel a little better.
Here's the thing: you're not wrong. It could be construed as a transitory sign of progress. However, at some point those discrete data points need to turn into an identifiable trend. That's where what you're saying falls apart. We've been seeing signs of progress for years now, but the team still can't win games. So I find myself unable to attach much significance to them anymore.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 08:43 PM - Post#179562
In response to Silver Maple
Well, I think this is a little different this year. I haven't had much positive or hopeful to say over the last two seasons. I think there is some limited progress going on.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-15 08:48 PM - Post#179564
In response to SomeGuy
The question then you have to ask yourself is do you see a path for that limited progress to get us past Harvard to the top of the league? I know what I think...
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-15 08:54 PM - Post#179567
In response to Mike Porter
Crocker blows the layup to take the lead at the half (didn't go strong or he would have got the foul call) and we obviously foul at the other end to go down 2 points into halftime.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3069
Reg: 10-20-14
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01-13-15 09:06 PM - Post#179572
In response to Mike Porter
Another difficult game. 22 points on 8-25 shooting. Sadly, they were 5 of its first 6 before going cold the rest of the half. 1-8 from 3 point range. 11 fouls, 9 turnovers, and several minutes at a time without a basket.
Since Niagra is probably the team on this year's schedule that most approximates Penn, it is no surprise that they are similarly challenged on both sides of the ball.
Hicks and DNH have been very quiet in the first half. Maybe, they will be able to take over in the second.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3783
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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Tony Hicks—enough already
01-13-15 09:23 PM - Post#179576
In response to SomeGuy
Well, I think this is a little different this year. I haven't had much positive or hopeful to say over the last two seasons. I think there is some limited progress going on.
I don't disagree-- there's definitely progress. The team is demonstrably better this year than it was last year, and that's no small thing. Considering how many players have departed, it could have easily been worse. However, I have to agree with Mike: if I were the AD (and it's a good thing I'm not), I'd have a very hard time concluding that the team has improved sufficiently to feel that Jerome Allen is the guy who will lead us to Shambala.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 09:23 PM - Post#179577
In response to Mike Porter
Well, that's another question altogether. But we have to start somewhere. It will take us years to catch up, unless we get extremely lucky with a high major level recruit.
Frankly, I think we'll need Harvard to misstep (and/or Amaker to leave) as well. We could beat Harvard for recruits when we were the better at basketball. Now Harvard is where you go to play in (and win) tourney games, along with having academic and fin aid advantages. We have a huge mountain to climb, and we'll have to get lucky, like they did when Dunphy left.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 09:27 PM - Post#179578
In response to Silver Maple
And I don't disagree about the coach. I've had reservations from the outset (so much so that I didn't believe it when I first heard rumors he would take over).
But I think progress needs to start now, regardless of who the coach is.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21369
Reg: 12-02-04
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01-13-15 09:42 PM - Post#179581
In response to rbg
It should be noted that this game finally changed for the better in the 2nd half once Hicks stopped taking every shot and started involving his teammates.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3783
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-13-15 10:01 PM - Post#179583
In response to penn nation
Still plenty of time to p1ss it away.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21369
Reg: 12-02-04
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01-13-15 10:04 PM - Post#179584
In response to Silver Maple
If Hicks isn't careful, he'll foul out with a few minutes to play. Howard's already out, so got to be smart here.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 10:18 PM - Post#179586
In response to penn nation
Nice to see Foreman and Woods hit free throws and control the ball down the stretch with the lead.
Every road win is a good win.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3069
Reg: 10-20-14
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01-13-15 10:39 PM - Post#179593
In response to SomeGuy
Very good second half. Good to see them get so many FT and actually hit a high percentage. Balanced scoring, solid rebounding and improved shooting with a low number of turnovers.
I wish they could find a way to cut down on the fouls and increase the number of made three pointers, though.
Hopefully they can carry the positives to Saturday's game with Villanova.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-13-15 10:55 PM - Post#179594
In response to rbg
I probably have too much faith in the ORAT numbers, particularly with a small sample size, but i think Sam Jones has to play more.
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oldschoolbb54
Freshman
Posts: 44
Reg: 01-10-15
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01-14-15 01:28 AM - Post#179602
In response to SomeGuy
It is nice to see foreman adjusting to the college level.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 587
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 08:33 AM - Post#179604
In response to fdiapmf
Exactly. And also remember Dunphy blew his fair share of leads against Princeton also.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 10:09 AM - Post#179605
In response to Charlie Fog
He did? He certainly blew one of the largest leads, but Dunphy's teams were 20-15 against Princeton (after a 1-5 start with the team he inherited) and these were some of Princeton's best teams ever. Jerome is 2-9 against Princeton, which has not been nearly as strong in this era. I don't think this is much of a defense for Jerome.
Oh, and by the way, Glen Miller was 5-1 against Princeton.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 10:48 AM - Post#179608
In response to palestra38
I really only recall the one blown lead against Princeton under Dunphy (though it was a doozy). But we also came back from down 17 with about 7 to go against them, so it seems like that more or less evens out.
Miller mainly got lucky -- those were some historically weak Princeton teams.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23688
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-14-15 10:53 AM - Post#179609
In response to SomeGuy
I admire the persistence of Penn fans in continuing to post about this and past teams. And I admire my own persistence in continuing to glance at these posts. WE DESERVE BETTER.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 11:17 AM - Post#179610
In response to SomeGuy
and two of those wins were with ibby's senior year. A trained chimp could have coached them - hey guys, what do you think we should do here? Get the ball to Zoller and/or Ibby? Ok, Penn on 3, 1, 2,3 PENN!
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 12:03 PM - Post#179612
In response to Jeff2sf
True, but he went 3-1 with his own players as freshmen and sophs, inherited by Jerome who went 1-5 with the same players...and 1-4 since.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21369
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 12:08 PM - Post#179613
In response to palestra38
The record against Princeton is Exhibit A and the only one that's needed to say genug--enough with JA.
Lovie Smith was a good coach for the Bears and early on held his own against GB. But eventually the tide turned and when you can no longer beat your primary rival anywhere close to 50% of the time, it is time to find someone else.
Especially, as has been noted, when beating Princeton should no longer be as arduous as it once was.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 04:46 PM - Post#179625
In response to penn nation
Not as arduous, but Princeton has been on a pretty good run since Joe Scott departed. Six straight top three finishes (though only one NCAA appearance in that time). Penn has one top three finish in that time.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 05:01 PM - Post#179627
In response to SomeGuy
It helps that they beat us twice every year, even when, as this year, we should have blown them out of the building.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4923
Reg: 02-04-06
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01-14-15 05:30 PM - Post#179632
In response to palestra38
Thanks for spotting us last year's game in the Palestra, but I'd still rather stick with reality.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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Tony Hicks—enough already
01-14-15 05:56 PM - Post#179633
In response to SRP
My point is that 2-9 is the reality. Our prior 2 coaches were 25-16. That's a reality too. He was trying to make me feel better by saying that Penn looked good through 27 minutes. That isn't reality.
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Redfish
Masters Student
Posts: 767
Loc: under a bridge in Phoenix...
Reg: 11-26-04
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01-14-15 06:34 PM - Post#179638
In response to palestra38
Miller was 5-1 against the Princeton when they were channeling this current Penn team.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-14-15 08:41 PM - Post#179644
In response to Redfish
I've said it before---only Jerome (with a big assist from the former AD whose name cannot be said) can make Miller look like a genius.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4008
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-15-15 04:44 PM - Post#179702
In response to palestra38
And I thought Miller was the name that could not be mentioned on the Board.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23688
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-15-15 04:49 PM - Post#179704
In response to Old Bear
He has been surpassed and therefore now may be mentioned.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-15-15 05:11 PM - Post#179705
In response to palestra38
Not being a head coach can also make Miller look like a genius.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3783
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-15-15 05:13 PM - Post#179706
In response to SomeGuy
That's a nice way of saying that he's risen to his level of incompetence.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-15-15 05:30 PM - Post#179707
In response to Silver Maple
He just couldn't stand up mentally to adversity. But had he been able to keep the team of Bernardini, Rosen, Eggleston, Belcore, Moncton, Gaines, Cofield, Reilly or Schreiber together and healthy, I think he would have won a title.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-16-15 12:15 PM - Post#179724
In response to palestra38
Sorry for dragging us back to the Princeton game, but I did want to make another point here about your comment that we should have kept doing what we were doing (getting it in to DNH), and your related statement elsewhere that Princeton didn't do anything different down the stretch.
They did do something different. All of DNH's success was basically against Peter Miller. When they got down, they dispensed with Miller and put Hans Brase on DNH (who then got the steal and stop against DNH in the sequence I pointed out before as we lost the lead). It's not a huge adjustment, because they often play about half the game "small" without Miller. But it's an adjustment that seemed to make a lot of difference in terms of what we were doing.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-16-15 12:26 PM - Post#179725
In response to SomeGuy
We self-destructed. Sure, there was one turnover by DNH, but you don't stop doing what you are doing. He missed only one shot. GET HIM THE BALL
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-16-15 01:00 PM - Post#179728
In response to palestra38
Maybe, but every time they went to Brase on him, thoughout the game, he didn't do anything. It seems unlikely that that is because we decided not to try once the shorter player was on him. My guess is that it had to do with the way Brase was defending him.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-16-15 02:36 PM - Post#179733
In response to SomeGuy
Get it to him---make Brase play defense on him. Go up high. That was ridiculous...we didn't even challenge it. Our outside guys simply forced things and turned it over. Coach has to find a way to exploit the mismatch.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-16-15 04:00 PM - Post#179736
In response to palestra38
I'm just not sure it's really a mismatch. Sometimes the mismatch goes the other way. I suspect that, if we charted who DNH scores against, it's usually bigger guys, not the guys who are giving him a few inches.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-16-15 04:14 PM - Post#179737
In response to SomeGuy
How can we know if we don't get him the ball? We went from DNH touching it on almost every play to not getting any touches at all.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2822
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-16-15 10:09 PM - Post#179753
In response to palestra38
Who did DNH eat up last year at the Palestra?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6419
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-16-15 11:18 PM - Post#179760
In response to Tiger69
I don't recall. DNH had a similar trajectory, scoring early and going quiet late. Only Barrett played significantly among guys of comparable height to DNH, but he was very slight.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32977
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-17-15 07:35 AM - Post#179766
In response to Tiger69
Both DNH and Dougherty had 17 last year at the Palestra. In the rematch at Princeton, Dougherty had 20 and DNH had 18. Penn has been beating the crap out of Princeton inside and Jerome simply took DNH out of the game last week. Especially with the way the refs were calling the game, any move to the basket was a foul.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2822
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Tony Hicks—enough already
01-17-15 12:02 PM - Post#179770
In response to The Quad
Well said. I wish we had a player as talented.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3783
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-17-15 12:46 PM - Post#179772
In response to Redfish
Miller was 5-1 against the Princeton when they were channeling this current Penn team.
Listen-- I'm no expert here, but I really don't think that's how channeling works. How would you channel an entity from the future? The mind boggles. However, you could make a case that Jerome Allen and the Penn team are channeling Joe Scott and his team respectively. Actually, the similarities are kind of eerie.
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