palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 04:08 PM - Post#183796
In response to Penndemonium
The situation when Dunphy took over was starkly different than it is now. The Ivies were as down as they ever were and he was able to turn it around with the limited talent he had and one good freshman class in his 3rd year. We are much further behind now and there is no tradition of winning in recent memory to turn to.
I think you and many others REALLY sell Amaker short. If you think he is only superior to Jerome in one category, I think you are simply refusing to see facts. His teams are very well coached and are extremely well prepared. He indeed has product to sell, but he does it extremely well. I do not see how we compete with him unless we get someone at his level. And let's not call him a washout--he certainly wasn't a washout at Seton Hall and at Michigan, he inherited a team in crisis and was told to toe the line academically. He did so, but could not get over the hump with academic players in the Big 10. But he did not have losing teams---they just wanted to cheat and win again and decided he wasn't the right guy to do it. Ironically, he might have more academic flexibility (given the Ivy competitors) at Harvard than he did at Michigan.
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Chuck
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 07:27 PM - Post#183811
In response to palestra38
Tell me what the ceiling and floor are for a new coach's comp and I think we can all pretty much figure out what kind of candidate profile will fit. Could Penn put together a $1M package? $750K? Or will we be trying to find someone to take the job for less than $500K or even $300K?
It's interesting that when exceptional packages are put together for senior administrators or even faculty (think Harvard v. MIT in economics) the rationale is always "that's what the market commands." Except for people involved with athletics and then the "market" doesn't matter (at least at Penn under Gutmann).
FWIW, I find all the references to "Amy" and "Grace" a bit strange. Does everyone on this board know these women on a first name basis? How many of us ever referred to Bilsky as just plain old "Steve?" None that I can recall. Seems like an attempt to make it sound like and insider is divulging stuff... or maybe its just some weird form of sexism, where's Jake when you need him?
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Chuck
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 07:33 PM - Post#183812
In response to palestra38
38, I agree with you about Amaker being underrated. He's been disparaged on this board for years, but when I watch his teams play I not only see good athletes with good b-ball skills, but you see an offense that runs smoothly with minimal dribbling and lots of movement. You see a coherent defense, that doesn't commit many dumb fouls.
He's really done a good job as a recruiter and a coach, that's the bottom line.
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fdiapmf
Masters Student
Posts: 590
Reg: 08-03-05
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 07:34 PM - Post#183813
In response to Chuck
great, now the board is going to spiral into a sexism talk when the focus should be elsewhere. what color was the dress chuck?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 07:36 PM - Post#183814
In response to Chuck
Uh, Jerome is Jerome and almost never "Allen". Dunphy was Fran or Franny more often than Dunphy. Bilsky was only "Bilsky" because it is so close to "Bile".
Maybe you sense this because you're in academia. I guarantee you that no one else thinks anything of it.
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fdiapmf
Masters Student
Posts: 590
Reg: 08-03-05
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 08:22 PM - Post#183819
In response to palestra38
wow chuck is an academic? just got owned by p38
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penn62
PhD Student
Posts: 1053
Reg: 11-27-05
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 08:45 PM - Post#183825
In response to Chuck
I received a letter from her not too long age and she signed it "Amy".
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gopenngo
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-30-06
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 09:07 PM - Post#183832
In response to Chuck
I used "Amy" and "Grace" because, well, I guess I'm a sexist. I'm not as comfortable referring to women by their last names, and using titles or even "Ms" is too cumbersome for me to type with my limited hunt-and-peck keyboard skills. My fingers can handle "Amy" and "Grace."
I generally refer to the current John R Rockwell Head Coach of Penn Mens Basketball as Jerome, because he was Jerome when he wore the uni. Plus, when someone mentions "Allen," I initially wonder who that is.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Musings
02-27-15 10:35 PM - Post#183861
In response to gopenngo
By retread I mean a good Div 1 coach who has to move down a notch, like Amaker did. No other kind of successful Div 1 coach would leave a good big time job to come to Penn. That does leave the lower part of Div 1 in play.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 08:44 AM - Post#183882
In response to UPIA1968
After last night's results, my confidence in Amaker is slightly shaken, but even the best Ivy coaches have lost on the road. However, my statement that Smith has won nothing remains accurate---losing at home to Dartmouth with Harvard coming in the next night is the classic example of overlooking an opponent you should beat at home with a major rival coming in. And my assessment that Cormier is the best floor coach in the Ivies remains solid.
So now, everyone is eliminated but Harvard and Yale, and they are headed for a matchup at Harvard next weekend. Since Yale will obviously crush the awful Quakers tonight, let's see if Columbia shows up tonight to give Harvard a game.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 09:01 AM - Post#183885
In response to palestra38
While obviously Harvard can and should beat Cornell most of the time, I think the matchup is a tricky one. Tough defensive opponent with some athletes can be tough on a team like Harvard.
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Ted
Junior
Posts: 222
Reg: 12-23-12
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 09:41 AM - Post#183887
In response to Ernie Nounou
Asia & Ernie,
Reading your various posts, it appears that for the most part, you two are in agreement with each other. How about getting your heads together, to come up with some ideas on how we can all assist in helping to get the Penn BB program back on top? Maybe there are some creative, tangible actions we can take, besides just a letter writing campaign to 'Ms.' Gutmann and 'Ms.' Calhoun. Just a thought...
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jadwin
Sophomore
Posts: 191
Age: 75
Reg: 01-14-15
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 10:09 AM - Post#183889
In response to palestra38
I agree that both coaches, Amaker and Smith, had bad nights last evening.
As to Amaker and Harvard, I believe that Amaker has done a very good job coaching this year as he does not have outstanding talent other than Saunders. If it was not for a moderately talented senior, Travis, Harvard would have 4 possibly 5 losses this year but Amaker and maybe more so, Saunders, have pulled victory from the jaws of defeat. Yale probably has more talent than Harvard this year but can Amaker and Saunders overcome next weekend -- I am not sure. I believe that here is some myth that Harvard is loaded with great talent sitting on the bench, 3 and 4 star recruits, ready to dominate the Ivies over the next four plus years.
As to Penn hiring a new coach, there are no magical quotients, named coach vs. up and coming coach. A very good recruiting and interview process will hopefully get the right guy for Penn but not for the rest of the Ivy League. I think last night, once again, confirmed that the Ivies will be very competitive and unpredictable over the next several years. The days of winning the crown 14-0 and 13-1 are probably over as well as one team dominating the league over a long time period. Money alone may not guarantee success but time will tell.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 10:11 AM - Post#183890
In response to Ted
Ted
Despite some opinions to the contrary, I am not an insider and I have zero influence on what goes on inside any Penn sports program. I am just a three figure donor to Penn Athletics and a fan like most on this board.
At the end of this year a decision needs to be made. Will Penn eat a couple years on an existing contract and pursue a new coach? If so, how much would we be willing to invest in that coach?
I do not believe raising enough money is the stumbling block. I think there are enough wealthy alums to come up with the amount necessary to move forward. This was the case when Miller was fired. Gutmann simply wouldn't let the plan happen.
The issue I believe is whether or not our President would go along with any plan that rivals the bold moves Harvard and Columbia made. History says she won't, but time has passed and the landscape has changed. Just because I personally have my doubts doesn't mean President Gutmann will not change the position she took a few years ago.
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Ernie Nounou
Freshman
Posts: 12
Reg: 12-21-14
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 12:10 PM - Post#183896
In response to Ted
Ted - Ever the optimist (per our DP exchanges). Sorry if this reads like an "I gave at the office" response, and further apologies to those in this forum who have reminded that this is a BB forum; but in fact there are no alternative forums where meaningful exchanges for Penn sports can take place.
I've loved Penn sports since undergrad days, but I feel like the Clint Eastwood character in "Million Dollar Baby" who sees his beloved boxer suffering and begging to be put out of her misery. He administers the fatal dose rather than believe that perhaps the following day would see her miraculously rise.
I've attached my real name to add credibility beyond the work we did based on documented data that Penn sports was suffering from 1) lack of commitment from the top; 2) lack of funding at competitive levels; 3) an AD management process of the program that could charitably be described as mismanagement by fear and middle-finger salute. It compounded a bad situation and made it worse. (If you wish more specificity, start a Bilsky blog, and I'll contribute, but won't take up space here.)
A major discovery was that supporters of various Penn teams operate in silos. That is while Penn BB's, while clearly the most passionate, fail to realize that Penn FB and other teams suffer from and operate under the very same constraints and share nearly identical issues. BB issues are unlikely to be resolved in isolation. In creating Regime Change we attempted among other things to break down these silos, and if you will, unite the various streams into a more forceful and effective torrent. Penn remains without a sports forum, while Columbia even during its darkest days provided an opportunity for the President and AD to meet with interested parties and do Q & A.
Note the importance of action from the top. My direct experience of this is a) Penn - Dr. Harry Fields Trustee responding to alums, undergrads, and fellow trustees by leading a report that led to hiring Fred Shabel; b) Michigan, that recently did something similar under pressure from undergrads and their marvelous student newspaper, alums and ticket holders at the Big House, and fired an arrogant AD who had damaged the program and culture, leading to the hiring of Harbaugh etc.; c) Columbia. As Asia points out it could happen at Penn - just as Hilary Swank might have risen from that bed at a future date - but the probability is low. There is little if any similar Penn undergrad outrage or alumni stirrings. So where will the impetus for change come from in our lifetimes? While my position vis Asia has moved closer as you point out, there is a significant gap in degree.
Those who believe Penn has adequate sports resources, that interested alums could be motivated to step up, that a clever hire here and there by AD Calhoun would solve matters, are really hoping to win the lottery. I assure readers that members of the Penn BB board were subscribers to Regime Change and would request issues they thought they had missed. Moreover other subscribers were name donors you would readily recognize. They are aware what ails - BB, FB and other teams - and historically they played significant support roles. Unfortunately a new generation to replace them was not cultivated. Penn has arguably the 2nd richest alumni base, but there is little chance of motivating them to step up meaningfully for Penn sports. Besides, when President Gutmann reaches into the well with one of them, does one really believe she'd do it for sports or one of her own priorities?
A word about funding, facilities, and coaching: Penn sports funding for Penn Park began with the overall theme "From worst to First" and set out raise funds to build facilities such as a new pool and other permanent facilities. A true "insider" I've known since undergrad days responded to criticism of the swimming program by saying and fully believing the coach's remarks that it was the fault of the Penn pool, which would be alleviated by the planned new pool. But ironically no new pool was built, because the "record fund-raising campaign" was ended a year early and victory declared, even as Penn sports fundraising came up short. That same insider continues to respond that he's been assured by Weightman Hall that the program has adequate funding, even as he also maintains that Penn can't match HYP and Columbia in pay. Remember that part of that fundraising was also to raise Asst Coach pay, which surveys at that time showed were the lowest in the Ivies.
Another 2 impediments to Penn sports fundraising - which Asia might be able to provide some input - are: 1) Coaches aren't allowed to appeal directly to most wealthy donors, who are the province of Penn's fundraising office; 2) contributions to Penn sports are or were taxed at around 20% that goes to the university. Thus $1.00 to Penn BB results in only $.80 for Penn BB. I don't believe that's changed, and it provides a reflection of Penn priorities and what Penn teams are up against. And then there's the Admissions Office. BTW - Bagnoli touched each one of these in explaining why he Columbia FB will now see a new day and succeed. He said he received direct assurance from President Bollinger and AD Pilling.
I totally agree with Asia that "better" is what Penn BB (and my words-Penn sports) can realistically aspire to. That's not for me. I have little interest in playing the Washington Generals role to HYP and other Ivy sports programs. I vote with Clint Eastwood to administer the fatal dose.
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Ted
Junior
Posts: 222
Reg: 12-23-12
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 02:04 PM - Post#183906
In response to Ernie Nounou
Asia & Ernie,
Wow. Thanks. I feel so much better now.
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Ernie Nounou
Freshman
Posts: 12
Reg: 12-21-14
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 Re: Musings
02-28-15 03:58 PM - Post#183932
In response to Ted
Ted - You asked, I answered with the truth as I know it. I didn't realize my mission was to make you feel good. Now I'm channeling my inner Jack Nicholson to wonder whether you can handle the truth :). I'm not particularly good at pretend, a shortcoming I've accepted and live with.
When I write that my heart is broken over what's happened to Penn sports, it is not a throw-away line. And having gone on more fools' errands - including on behalf of Penn sports - I really have given at the office. If others have more positive outlooks for Penn sports and BB in particular, sincere best wishes for successful outcomes.
PS Apologies for the misplaced smile icon, another shortcoming.
Edited by Ernie Nounou on 02-28-15 04:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 03:59 PM - Post#183933
In response to jadwin
As one of the folks spreading the myth, I should clarify. It may be a myth that they have all this talent on the bench -- that is an opinion that I can't prove. However, it is an absolute fact that they have nine guys returning who were 3 or 4 star recruits: Chambers, Okolie, Cummins, Zena, Myers, Miller, Chatfield, Egi, and McCarthy. That is more than half of the 3 star guys (and all of the 4 star guys) in the entire league. That may or may not be indicative of talent (I think it is), but the level of recruiting interest in them is a fact.
I think you are sleeping on guys like Chatfield, who simply came in to a situation where he wouldn't get a chance to play as a freshman. The difference between him and Bell may be nothing more than opportunity. Next year, Chatfield has the opportunity, too.
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 04:41 PM - Post#183936
In response to SomeGuy
I accept your point that the Harvard frosh are not getting the playing time to show their abilities, given the quality of the senior talent. But K Smith Okolie, Edosomwan have not produced impressive numbers or on my admittedly limited observation reminded me of , say, a Ugonna. You can excuse Smith because of injury, but I'd reply: Howlett, Schreiber, Bernardini & others. Next year will show whether there is exceptional Ivy talent on Harvard's bench but the recruiting star ratings haven't been borne out. And I'll bet on Silpe over McCarthy.
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jadwin
Sophomore
Posts: 191
Age: 75
Reg: 01-14-15
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Re: Musings
02-28-15 04:47 PM - Post#183938
In response to SomeGuy
I do agree that Chatfield has the most upside potential of the guys that you have mentioned and Miller clearly has his moments but he needs to develop something other than 3 pt shots as you can take him out of the game. Chambers has taken a step back as a junior but he plays with so much heart.
If all of these other guys are so good, Amaker would be absolutely giving them minutes right now with the dog fights that Harvard has experienced this year. Amaker appears to only trust Saunders and Chambers on a consistent basis with Mondau-Misi and Travis, not highly recruited, in the mix. The other players are fill ins and have not made significant contributions. It may be that these guys are not as good as advertised or perhaps, the way that they are being developed. The other possibility is that they will show something very different over the next two to three years but it would certainly be fair to say that there are questions to be answered.
Saunders looks more than willing to give someone else the ball if they would step up.
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