Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: 4 Star Seth Towns Picks Harvard
06-25-15 12:46 AM - Post#190066
In response to jadwin
Jadwin, I'm getting tired of this. We all have already agreed on that there are bigger issues at play than FA. I agree with you. But even though the difference may be minuscule, the FA still favors HYP. Just in the same way the AI avantage is minuscule and favors Penn. Can't you just admit that? Why is it so hard? Neither appears to define success and failure. Harvard does not need to have any FA recruiting advantage to succeed, yet it exists. That bothers some of us, even if has very little to do with actual league standings.
HarvardDadGrad, you are a classic specimen of your pedigree. The whole Ivy League is built on a self-satisfyied elitism, and clearly you have swallowed the whole pill. Congrats to you.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1125
Reg: 11-22-04
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06-25-15 07:50 AM - Post#190067
In response to Penndemonium
Just catching up here. But to HarvardDadGrad: get over yourself (or maybe your child's accomplishments). Not everyone even wants to go to the big H. Some of us may have applied early decision to another ivy, as we were interested in their business school. Yeesh.
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jadwin
Sophomore
Posts: 191
Age: 74
Reg: 01-14-15
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Re: 4 Star Seth Towns Picks Harvard
06-25-15 08:28 AM - Post#190069
In response to Penndemonium
Jadwin, I'm getting tired of this. We all have already agreed on that there are bigger issues at play than FA. I agree with you. But even though the difference may be minuscule, the FA still favors HYP. Just in the same way the AI avantage is minuscule and favors Penn. Can't you just admit that? Why is it so hard? Neither appears to define success and failure. Harvard does not need to have any FA recruiting advantage to succeed, yet it exists. That bothers some of us, even if has very little to do with actual league standings.
HarvardDadGrad, you are a classic specimen of your pedigree. The whole Ivy League is built on a self-satisfyied elitism, and clearly you have swallowed the whole pill. Congrats to you.
I agree with your comments and acknowledge your thoughts as to FA and AI. Your realistic comments are very different than other comments such as Harvard being the preseason favorite 8 or 9 years out of 10 due to Harvard's FA advantage which is absurd. Although Harvard may be favored 8/9 out of 10 years, highly unlikely, it will be a result of far more important factors.
Time to move on. It will be interesting to see if Columbia is the preseason favorite with Rosenberg and Mullins back, and with the addition of another German player. I hope that if Columbia wins this year, people will not be talking about how Columbia plays with the rules as to foreign recruits -- every Ivy League team had the ability to recruit Lo.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-25-15 09:28 AM - Post#190070
In response to 91Quake
I actually agree with HarvardDad about most and don't think it's arrogance but rather factual. Penn loses overlapping choice applicants to Harvard at a rate of about 4 out of 5. We do much better than that with Yale and Princeton (around 3 out 5), but still get only 40% of the dual admits to enroll at Penn.
In sports it tends to differ sport to sport based on coaches/facilities. but we still have difficulty recruiting head to head with Harvard in football. That's not the case with Y or P where it's about 50/50.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 4 Star Seth Towns Picks Harvard
06-25-15 10:01 AM - Post#190071
In response to jadwin
I don't think anyone said that Harvard will be favorite 8 or 9 of 10 solely because of FA. It is the gestalt of FA, willingness (unlike the past) to go to the AI floor, the brand and the hiring (for twice or more as much as any other Ivy) of a Big Time Coach. From what you just wrote, you apparently agree. So there is nothing to argue about---no one is saying Harvard is guaranteed to win nor that Harvard is cheating. It's just about time that the schools sat down and took another look at the rules and what adjustments should be made in 2015. So let's indeed move on. BTW, while Columbia has undeniable talent, it still would be a huge jump to the title this year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-25-15 10:02 AM - Post#190072
In response to AsiaSunset
As to Harvard football, as we noted, it's tough to compete when they offer The Game, and we offer "At Cornell before 2000 in 15 degree weather."
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-25-15 10:26 AM - Post#190073
In response to palestra38
Remember that football has the banding, which provides (well, used to provide) a relatively large advantage to the Ivies with the lower AI targets to hit. The booster discussion goes out the window with hard bands.
Now, that being said, we all know the Dartmouth football story as the folks in Hanover made a concerted effort to raise the average SAT score of the incoming classes. Other Ivies have done the same, such that the difference in the banding for most Ivies isn't large at all anymore (I have a sheet of the bands from 2002 which was shocking).
So, that AI banding offset that used to be a field leveler in football is now not nearly as potent as it used to be.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1125
Reg: 11-22-04
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06-25-15 10:59 AM - Post#190074
In response to AsiaSunset
I know the facts as well. No one is saying Harvard is not a great school. But the comment on the elitism of many people associated with the school was dead on and it can be just insufferable (not pointing to anyone else on this board btw).
You don't need to apologize for his arrogance by association. Some of us have managed to do just fine and didn't even apply to Harvard.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-25-15 11:27 AM - Post#190076
In response to mrjames
I've done a lot of work on the football board demonstrating that there has been no apparent correlation between differing AI numbers for schools and results on the field. There has been significant correlation with other factors, the most important being quality of the coaching staff and quality of facilities.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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06-25-15 11:37 AM - Post#190077
In response to 91Quake
Penn advocates, I've re-read my post. For the record, I add that my sister, my uncle and a cousin all went to Wharton or a Penn Grad School. I have prevously posted that I think Penn is a great school, and that the Ivy League is better off if Penn's basketball program becomes what it once was. However - all things being equal - it is likely that students tend to select HYP over any other competing school (except maybe Stanford). That is not a slap at Penn or any other school, just today's reality.
My point is echoed by some others on this board. At any particular time, within a conference, certain schools have recruiting advantages. For decades, Penn and Princeton enjoyed that status. Today, probably for the first time ever, Harvard does.
I don't believe that is because of FA (which favors HYP) or AI (which appears to favor Penn and likely Cornell, etc.). My examples were - I believe - factual and objective (thanks Asia). If I offended, that wasn't the intention.
For example, I believe it is difficult for conference foes to recruit against programs like Duke, Arizona or Gonzaga. That reflects more on what those schools - and Harvard - have achieved in the recent past. It need not be historical, and it certainly can be fleeting. I don't believe this is arrogance, just a reflection of the relative and current recruiting strengths within certain conferences.
In my post, I lauded the steps Penn has taken to re-establish its position and I believe it is already bearing fruit. Having said that, I don't believe that the Ivy League will attract many 4* basketball prospects for obvious reasons and except under remarkable circumstances. At the moment, in my opinion, Harvard is the only league participant that has made the commitment needed and, fortunately for Harvard, it has the recent accomplishments necessary to recruit in that rarefied air. If others who note that the league is getting stronger are correct, other schools may break through as well and it is inevitable that - at some point - Harvard will lose its current basketball luster. If Amaker leaves or the next two seasons are disappointing (which they could be), things could change dramatically.
In the meantime, I will be rooting for Penn to beat Princeton and Columbia this season.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1125
Reg: 11-22-04
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06-25-15 12:54 PM - Post#190079
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Fair enough, let's move on and start the basketball pre-season already.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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06-25-15 01:36 PM - Post#190080
In response to 91Quake
Any chance we can fast forward to 2016-17?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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06-25-15 01:40 PM - Post#190081
In response to 91Quake
Any chance we can fast forward to 2016-17?
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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06-25-15 01:48 PM - Post#190082
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Alright, is now the time to hug it out?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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4 Star Seth Towns Picks Harvard
06-25-15 01:52 PM - Post#190083
In response to TheLine
We're good!
If Penn can beat Princeton and Columbia this year, we're GREAT!
By the way, I expect Harvard and Penn to split their series this year. Penn has very good depth at the guard position and better 3pt shooting because of Jones. Probably up to DNH and Hicks.
To show how this thread got off track, there are 102 posts on the Penn Board in a thread on Seth Towns and only 2 on the Harvard Board thread!
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 06-25-15 01:58 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: 4 Star Seth Towns Picks Harvard
06-25-15 03:25 PM - Post#190087
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Which is why Harvard crowing can be galling to Penn fans. There is little interest on the Harvard board, you play in a dumpy high school gym and can't fill it for every game, even with the great team you had last year and the proposal is for Microsoft money to build a new facility that would do any good Division 3 program proud. We just care a whole lot more than Harvard does, so being as bad as we have been recently sticks in our craws.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-26-15 06:44 AM - Post#190091
In response to section110
If we could channel the intellectual energy contained in this thread and put it into something meaningful, the world would be a better place.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-26-15 07:07 AM - Post#190092
In response to 10Q
Of course, you can say that about 99% of activity on the internet.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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06-26-15 11:32 AM - Post#190095
In response to jadwin
I've discussed this with non-basketball Penn athletics people and am now hearing directly the horror stories of the Bilsky administration. Yes, Gutmann, Bilsky, and some unfortunate coaching has gutted Penn basketball and numerous other sports.
I've also discussed this with some big Harvard donors. Harvard has told them explicitly that they are now dedicated to chasing Stanford in athletics (in a select group of sports) to also chase Stanford's endowment growth rate. They have recognized the link. They are focusing on high impact and lower player count sports like basketball.
I suspect Gutman is similar to my wife. The school's mission isn't athletics, it doesn't make sense why people pay so much attention to sports, athletics fans are a bit immature, and there's no reason why it should affect the community so much. What she misses is that it simply does. Everyone likes to feel like a winner. We are less inclined to give generously to the administration that has deprived us of our main love of Penn as alumni - basketball. Even while Penn has just been ranked #1 on some recent college rankings, we all feel like losers because the basketball team sucks!
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-26-15 11:59 AM - Post#190096
In response to Penndemonium
Guttman is a died in the wool Princetonian. She believes in participatory sports and the glory of winning with true student-athletes. If you lose, it's the participating, not the winning that matters. That attitude (which is no longer followed by Princeton varsity athletics) permeates College Hall. Only the outcry at the embarrassment of the last 8 years of Penn basketball forced a change, which she has outsourced to Dr. Calhoun. Clearly, Calhoun doesn't come from that background and is cleaning house. I don't expect, however, that either Calhoun or Donahue will get anywhere near the institutional support that you describe of Harvard. Just the way it is. But we'll do much better than we have been doing.
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