Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 4 of 4 « First<1234
Username Post: Ivy League Tourney?        (Topic#18428)
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-04-15 11:19 PM - Post#196655    
    In response to Tiger69

Well, again, that's a stylistic argument. I'm fine with people that say they'd rather see the title decided over 14 games than a 4- or 8-team tournament. I'm just making the point that the odds of picking the "best" team are similar.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
12-04-15 11:49 PM - Post#196656    
    In response to mrjames

Okay, here is where we diverge. I don't care who is the "best" league representative -- I.e. who might be most successful in the NCAA tournament. I see the NCAA spot as a prize for winning the League Championship. Everyone wants that experience. Why possibly take that away from the Champion who might lose for any number of reasons in an abbreviated 3 game tournament? No, the regular season champion earned it. If there is room for a second Ivy spot in the NCAA field, then fine. Let the also-rans compete for it in a post season tournament. But the regular season Champion is guaranteed the single bid.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
12-04-15 11:56 PM - Post#196657    
    In response to Tiger69

Exactly - and I have no argument for that. My argument pertains to those that want to send the "best" team or the one with the best odds of winning a tournament game. Preferring a double round-robin over a single-elimination playoff (even when the odds are roughly the same), is a stylistic choice for which there is no right or wrong answer.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
Ivy League Tourney?
12-05-15 09:35 AM - Post#196661    
    In response to mrjames

I too am concerned that an end of season "tournament" to decide who represents the Ivies at the NCAAs would often reduce the league's chances of winning one or more games in the latter tournament. MRJames, your dismissal of these concerns seems thinly supported. Can you show me some years when the Ivy team that finished second or third had a higher RPI than the Ivy winner? Or find us such instances in other "one bid" leagues? Or show statistics that suggest that seeding in the NCAA tournament doesn't matter in determining the likelihood of winning a game or two in the tournament?

The point is that AFTER the teams have played their 14 Ivy games, they have a portfolio and statistical "ratings" (RPI, Pomeroy, etc.), the overused "body of work" in the parlance of the tournament prognosticators. Count me in the group that also believes the NCAA powers take any excuse to give the Ivies and others like us the lowest possible seed. An "upset" in a post-season Ivy tournament (anyone other than #1 wins) and that team will be hosed in the NCAA tournament seeding.

And to Some Guy who suggested that pro sports all do this, please let me know when the NFC East tournament is to determine who gets into the NFL playoffs and I won't watch the Eagles-Patriots game Sunday.

Edited by TigerFan on 12-05-15 09:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
12-05-15 10:55 AM - Post#196662    
    In response to TigerFan

The issue ought not turn on the question of determining the "best" team to send to the NCAA tournament. If it is true, as reported here and elsewhere, that the presidents will approve this silliness, does anyone have any insight into the rationale THEY are using? What's different now?

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Ivy League Tourney?
12-05-15 11:34 AM - Post#196666    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

The presidents would be supporting this based on the overwhelming support of the coaches, ADs and policy committee.

As for the "thinly supported claim," on many occasions on these boards and in blog posts, I've shown evidence of how many non-regular-season winners (mainly 2 and 3 seeds) have "stolen" the conference tournament bid and then won games in the NCAA tournament. I've shown how the simulations work that support the argument that the 14GT doesn't lead to different outcomes than a 4- or 8-team tournament when parity is high as it is in the current Ivy. I've shown that over the past five years, there were multiple teams each year that would have avoided the 16 line.

I've presented mountains of evidence and research on this over the years. In my opinion, it is the scaremongering on the side of the 14GT partisans that is thinly supported.

While I believe the conference tourney is a red herring (there are more productive rules changes that could be made to increase the profile of the league), I'm excited to see it pass just to kill these unsubstantiated narratives that have flown around the league for so long.

Edited by mrjames on 12-05-15 11:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
12-05-15 01:04 PM - Post#196670    
    In response to mrjames

The coaches have long been in favor of it, as far as I know. The AD's not so much, at least until now. The suggestion that the support of the presidents is "based on" what others desire is not responsive. My question is why do those who are driving the bus support it? Surely it has nothing to do with how the conference decides its NCAA tournament rep.

 
jadwin 
Sophomore
Posts: 191

Age: 74
Reg: 01-14-15
12-05-15 01:11 PM - Post#196671    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
Well, again, that's a stylistic argument. I'm fine with people that say they'd rather see the title decided over 14 games than a 4- or 8-team tournament. I'm just making the point that the odds of picking the "best" team are similar.




You frame it as a stylistic choice. The "styles" are 2 or 3 game tournament structure vs. 14 game regular season structure. To me, it is as simple as that and it just doesn't make good sense to many of us as to how to send only one representative to the NCAA tournament.

Now, if it is really about the money or some semi-absurd argument that it will help the recruiting process, different story. I am sure that having a tournament will save the economic viability of Ivy League institutions -- caustically stated.

Once again, sign of the times --- show vs substance as to the decision making criteria.


 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
12-05-15 01:29 PM - Post#196675    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Linking some of Mike's research to prove he isn't making all this up: http://ivybasketball.blogspot.com/2010/11/14-game-...

Here's KenPom arguing more or less the same thing: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/conf...

 
Mike Porter 
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Mike Porter
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
12-05-15 02:07 PM - Post#196682    
    In response to whitakk

Despite Penn's place in the current hierarchy I'm still a solid NO as well for all the reasons we've discussed across the years. Not that we have any say of course, so I guess we'll get to see how it plays out in reality.

Fascinating that based on anecdotal responses, the majority of the biggest Ivy fans (cause let's be honest that's us) are not in favor of a tournament. We should run a poll to see results.


 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3988

Reg: 11-23-04
12-05-15 09:29 PM - Post#196762    
    In response to Mike Porter

I am in favor of "the most deserving team" representing the league in the NCAA. I believe that 9 out of 10 years, an Ivy team will win one game and 1 in 10, will win 2 or 3. Is it written in NCAA rules that the conference tourney winner must get the invite, or does the NCAA Committee decide who goes? If we have a team at 14-0, who looses in a Conference Tourney, and doesn't get in, then I think that's bad. However if 14-0 team loses it's 2 or 3 beat players during the last weekend of regular season play, they might not be the best team to represent the League in the NCAA.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-10-15 08:06 PM - Post#197149    
    In response to Old Bear

In terms of devaluing the regular season with a tournament, here's Manhattan's coach's attitude:

"The loss dropped this year’s Jaspers to 1-6 on the season following an 0-2 start in MAAC play last weekend.

But just like last year, the slow start has not affected Masiello. In fact, he has embraced it.

“Does it matter if you go 20-0 and lose the MAAC tournament?” Masiello asked. “I don’t want to lose, but at the end of the day it comes down to what we do on three nights in Albany this year. End of the day, that’s what my program plays for: to go to the NCAA Tournament. That’s what I’m about. If I lose in the semis, ask me how I feel then. But until that point, it’s about a process. People who don’t have belief in their process and their system, they panic now. We don’t panic. We know what’s important. We know what matters.”"

http://www.nycbuckets.com/2015/12/columbia-72-m anh...

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3988

Reg: 11-23-04
12-10-15 09:11 PM - Post#197153    
    In response to SRP

Right on SRP!

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
12-10-15 10:15 PM - Post#197158    
    In response to SRP

Well, I'd take that with a grain of salt. As a coach, you're always going to be about process. And when you're 1-6 or 0-2, of course you're going to be about the future. Is it really a bad thing that he's talking about the tournament? Or that those kids still have something to play for? Would you prefer if Bill Courtney had said after the first Ivy weekend in 2014, "well, another season down the drain. Can't wait until Shonn Miller is back next year."

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-12-15 07:56 PM - Post#197231    
    In response to SomeGuy

The same thing happened last year for the Jaspers. Winning and losing in the regular season has become meaningless.

 
Okoro Dude 
Senior
Posts: 309

Loc: Glen Mills, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
12-14-15 02:30 PM - Post#197311    
    In response to SRP

I have always thought that the 14 game tournament was better in terms of picking the best team, I think the analytics show that it was more clearly the case in the past, and not much of a difference now. Making it only 4 teams and letting top seed host would keep a lot of the regular season games meaningful.

I do think a 4-team tournament will be exciting for many who follow the Ivies (forget the nation - who doesn't care much about the Ivies anyway) and give most of the players a chance to play meaningful games through the last weekend of the Ivies where most teams are currently just playing out the string at the end of the year. To me the best simple argument is what the athletes prefer - they are the ones who make the real investment in this. I suspect they want a tournament and, for that reason, I support it.

 
20Penn14 
Senior
Posts: 364

Reg: 02-26-12
12-14-15 03:13 PM - Post#197316    
    In response to Okoro Dude

I agree with you Okoro. If the athletes are really into a tournament, then I would be fine with a tournament.
If the athletes are indifferent, then I would say we keep the 14 game tourney

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-14-15 09:33 PM - Post#197351    
    In response to 20Penn14

The four-team format helps some, but only for the middle-of-the-pack teams. The top and bottom teams can coast through the end of the regular season without playing a meaningful game; before the top contenders really had to worry about an upset and the bottom feeders knew that they could spoil a contender's season by knocking them off. Not so with a tourney.

 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
12-14-15 09:54 PM - Post#197352    
    In response to 20Penn14

When this came up a few years ago, players (at least the ones I polled) were more anti-tournament than pro-tournament: http://dailyprincetonian.com/sports/2012/04/basket ...

The YDN article last week suggested that their players were generally in favor, although the actual quotes are pretty mixed: http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/12/08/mens- bask...

My hunch is that most players (at least the veterans) would voice their support for whatever is status quo in their league. But I could be wrong.

 
 Page 4 of 4 « First<1234
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

19434 Views




Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.284 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 04:11 AM
Top