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Username Post: Ivy Tournament at the Palestra?        (Topic#18628)
mbaprof 
Senior
Posts: 342

Age: 66
Reg: 12-24-11
01-22-16 01:33 PM - Post#199932    

Hey guys, what do you think about having a tournament and having it at the Palestra (at least for first few years)

Obviously it might give PENN a little bit of an edge but its an amazing venue , every team plays there every year, rooting is pretty neutralized when tickets are evenly distributed (as was the case for the recent revival of Big Five doubleheader which was a great event)

Philly is a great destination these days, restaurants, lots of reasonably priced great hotels, stuff for non basketball spouses to do. Driving/train distance for everyone in league. TV loves it, CBS carried the doubleheader this week.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
01-22-16 02:31 PM - Post#199935    
    In response to mbaprof

If it passed (the Ivy office has put a gag order on the info, given what happened before the vote), then a four-game tournament at The Palestra is what would happen.

No word on whether it passed yet.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 486

Age: 49
Reg: 08-28-12
01-22-16 03:27 PM - Post#199940    
    In response to mrjames

What happened before the vote?

 
OneIvyOne 
Junior
Posts: 201

Loc: West
Reg: 08-28-13
01-22-16 06:39 PM - Post#199955    
    In response to mrjames

Four game or four team tournament?

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
01-22-16 07:38 PM - Post#199959    
    In response to OneIvyOne

Ha. Yeah... Team... Whoops.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
01-22-16 09:09 PM - Post#199963    
    In response to mrjames

.???

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
01-30-16 12:51 PM - Post#200492    
    In response to Tiger69

Watched Harvard dominate for stretches in every game, but noting Harvard has likely dug a big hole and is chasing three undefeated teams, I'm requesting that the Ivy League tournament start this year!

Self-serving? Absolutely!

Actually supports argument against the tournament? Absolutely!

Harvard didn't win so it deserves what it gets.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
01-30-16 01:46 PM - Post#200494    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Princeton dug itself an early hole a couple of years ago. But, as I felt then and still do, a tournament sucks if it undoes the outcome of a 14 game champion.

 
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
01-30-16 10:09 PM - Post#200556    
    In response to Tiger69

So what the ---- is taking them so long to make the announcement? And what happened before the vote? Mike, you're killing us here!
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 12480

Reg: 12-07-04
02-01-16 01:09 PM - Post#200719    
    In response to dperry

This is the second time a comment like that has been made without further explanation. Got to love the secrecy of this league...

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-02-16 12:38 PM - Post#200788    
    In response to Quakers03

Sorry, folks, #reallife is has gotten in the way for a bit.

I know nothing. Been frozen out at this point like everyone else. I've sort of felt (and expressed publicly) that leading up to the December meeting, if things got too public and the presidents felt pressure, they would respond with an action that would indicate that no one can tell them what to do.

I maintain that it will happen. But I think it will happen in a way that allows the presidents to demonstrate it was done on their terms, not anyone else's.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
02-02-16 02:01 PM - Post#200797    
    In response to mrjames

One of the more irrelevant teams in the league has the only venue which can host this, ensuring an affordable location which isn't going to provide a home court advantage.

Does that help?


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Ivy Tournament at the Palestra?
02-06-16 10:36 AM - Post#200978    
    In response to TheLine

Hypothetical:
- Harvard has lead in second halves of first four games, but horrendous free throw shooting and strong finishes by opponents results in 1-3 start.
- Zena gets injured in game 4, contributing to losses against Columbia, Princeton and Penn and a 1-5 start.
- Harvard plays respectably through remainder of season, splitting remaining 8 contests. Zena handled carefully so as to allow him to complete season healthy.
- Yale (12-2), Princeton (12-2), Columbia (12-2) and Harvard (5-9) make tournament playoff, as dominance at the top and dogfights at the bottom drag down records of Cornell, Brown, Penn and Dartmouth. Havard goes 0-6 against YPC and finishes 13-17 overall.
- Behind a rested Zena and unexceptional free throw results (a significant improvement compared to the prior 30 games), Harvard wins league tournament.
- Due to 2 conference losses plus another in the league tournament no other teams are considered for NCAA at large spot.

Anyone still want a tournament?

What if Yale finishes 14-0 and has a chance for an at large bid?




Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-06-16 10:38 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mbaprof 
Senior
Posts: 342

Age: 66
Reg: 12-24-11
Re: Ivy Tournament at the Palestra?
02-07-16 10:25 AM - Post#201095    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

of course in the above scenario, there would be a two game playoff involving three teams anyway

If anyone attended the recent "revival" of a Big Five doubleheader at the Palestra, you would have seen what a special place it is when you have four teams with highly engaged fans bases who know the other teams and the players and coaches.

Again Ill admit bias as I would love to attend and its probably PENN's best chance of having a change to play for the tournament at the end of the season with the strength around the league.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Ivy Tournament at the Palestra?
02-07-16 11:53 AM - Post#201104    
    In response to mbaprof

I just want everyone to note that in my hypothetical correctly 'predicted' Harvard's loss at Penn yesterday. Painful Harvard game to watch, nice win for Penn.

Hope the rest of my hypothetical pans out.

By the way, in response to mbaprof, yes, there would be a three team playoff anyway, but those teams would have earned it. It not unlikely that Yale wins outright at 13-1 or 14-0. In that instance, if there was a tournament, imagine if one or more of Sherrod/Sears/Mason get in quick foul trouble against a theoretical 4th seeded Crimson in a first round playoff? Even worse, what if there is a one game injury (as happened to Sears this year and two years ago)? 14-0 upset by 5-9? Would Yale (currently 58th KenPom) earn an at large bid? Remember, #70 Yale (11-3) was passed over by both NCAA and NIT last year.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-07-16 11:54 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Kit 
Senior
Posts: 380

Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
Re: Ivy Tournament at the Palestra?
02-07-16 04:15 PM - Post#201122    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

You're dreaming if you think Yale can earn an at-large bid. No Ivy has ever done it, and none will ever do so (Provided the field stays at 68).


 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy Tournament at the Palestra?
02-08-16 12:22 PM - Post#201163    
    In response to Kit

That's just ridiculous. An Ivy at-large will happen, and if we have the tournament, it will probably happen soon. Heck, it could actually happen next year.

If Kyle Casey isn't sick when Harvard loses by 3 to Michigan, the Crimson probably would have put this to bed in 2011.

I can very easily see a Top 50 Harvard team in the 2017-2020 timeframe that loses in the conf tourney and gets an at-large bid. Next year, I'd wager that both the Crimson and Tigers will be Top 50 teams. This is so much closer to happening than anyone stuck in the past could possibly fathom.

 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
02-08-16 08:18 PM - Post#201207    
    In response to mrjames

On the women's side, Princeton's going to have a real shot this year if it loses a playoff to Penn at 13-1.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
02-08-16 08:52 PM - Post#201208    
    In response to whitakk

I admit I'm stuck in the past, but I can accept that a tournament may be approved. I do not yet understand why.

 
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
02-08-16 10:50 PM - Post#201213    
    In response to whitakk

  • whitakk Said:
On the women's side, Princeton's going to have a real shot this year if it loses a playoff to Penn at 13-1.



Actually, that's not clear at the moment. To begin with, right now Penn and Princeton are virtually tied in the RPI. You could give the nod to Princeton based on best NC (Duquesne at 25 vs. Colo. St. at 62), but it's not that much of a difference, and of course under your scenario, Penn will have beaten Princeton 2 out of 3. Right now, Penn is 44 in the RPI and Princeton 47. Well, there are 18 conferences whose current leaders are behind both teams, so that takes us up to 46 right there, and that's before we get into the other factors the committee takes into consideration, most of which do not favor the Ivies. Let's put it this way; ESPN's bracketology, which is usually very accurate, not only doesn't have Princeton in right now, they're not even on the bubble.

Now, it is true that both teams' RPI's have gone up quite a bit since the start of the league season (right after they met, they were both in the high 50's-low 60's, whereas now they're in the mid-40's). If they both win out against the rest of the league and some of their opponents continue to rise, they might both get up into the 30's and two bids would start to look more realistic. However, we've got a long way to go to get there, and even if they do both go 13-1, it's not guaranteed that their SOS will be enough to get both over the top.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
02-09-16 12:08 AM - Post#201217    
    In response to dperry

I don't disagree. Only a playoff loser at 13-1 would really have a chance.

I think Princeton would have an RPI around 35-40 in that position (Penn's would be a bit lower, since it would need two more losses). All their losses would be road/neutral to top-50 RPI teams, and they'd have two top-50 wins. They're in the 30s in the Sagarin ratings, and maybe have some leftover name recognition from last year, FWIW.

I still don't know if that team gets in, but it would be the best at-large case we've seen on either side.

Seems to me they got hurt by non-league opponents having down years (Marist, Fordham, Michigan). If some of those teams had been stronger, Princeton might have been able to get its RPI up around the high 20s (as similar teams did in 2012/13), and then it would've been really hard to leave them out.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
02-09-16 01:33 AM - Post#201221    
    In response to whitakk

Given the disrespect the NCAA has for the Ivies as reflected by the 8 seed it gave to the UNDEFEATED (30-0) Tigers in its region last year, I don't see a second bid to the Ivies anytime soon.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-09-16 12:19 PM - Post#201230    
    In response to Tiger69

The Ivies will get a second bid when they start consistently playing and beating top 50 teams.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-09-16 12:52 PM - Post#201233    
    In response to PennFan10

They've taken care of part A there. Only Dartmouth failed to play 3 Tier A (Top 50) games this season. And when you look at Tier A and Tier B games (Top 50 and Top 100), every Ivy played at least three and a couple (Harvard and Yale) played 5. Combine that with the fact that the average Ivy team gets about 4 Tier A or Tier B shots per year in conference play now, and we're starting to get to critical mass on building a profile.

Part B has been pretty good recently too. This year was a disappointment with so many near misses, but we've racked up a ton of scalps over the past five years or so. Wins are correlated with both skill and total number of opportunities, so as both increase, I would expect to see more.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 486

Age: 49
Reg: 08-28-12
02-09-16 01:04 PM - Post#201236    
    In response to mrjames

Dartmouth played Seton Hall who is #31 on Kenpom.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-09-16 05:32 PM - Post#201257    
    In response to mrjames

And part B probably has to be a team that wins more than just one of those games in a given season. They have to show they can beat other top 50 teams, that seems to me how other at large teams build a resume for the NCAA's.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-09-16 09:59 PM - Post#201270    
    In response to PennFan10

The answer to that might be getting more Top 50 games at home, where the games can be easier than non-Top 100 road contests, but count toward the Top 50 record.

The only thing that will keep us from getting the necessary Top 50 wins will be not scheduling enough games - a trend that has been good recently, but needs to continue. Also, allowing MTE participation every year will give us better shots at good teams on neutral floors.

The resistance I'm getting to this when I talk about it really makes me wish that this prop was open for betting. It's hard to recruit as well as this league is recruiting right now and not fall something-backwards into a two-bid situation. This is happening, folks.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
02-09-16 10:46 PM - Post#201271    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
They've taken care of part A there. Only Dartmouth failed to play 3 Tier A (Top 50) games this season. And when you look at Tier A and Tier B games (Top 50 and Top 100), every Ivy played at least three and a couple (Harvard and Yale) played 5. Combine that with the fact that the average Ivy team gets about 4 Tier A or Tier B shots per year in conference play now, and we're starting to get to critical mass on building a profile.

Part B has been pretty good recently too. This year was a disappointment with so many near misses, but we've racked up a ton of scalps over the past five years or so. Wins are correlated with both skill and total number of opportunities, so as both increase, I would expect to see more.




Yale, Harvard and Princeton played competitive games against several top 25 teams -- Oklahoma,Kansas, Miami, SMU and USC but the reality is that no Ivy League team has beaten a top 50 team this year currently based on KenPom rankings. As a matter of fact, I believe that the top rated KenPom team that lost to an Ivy team is Princeton at #70 to Yale at #55. There will not be a second bid for an Ivy team until there are victories on a more regular basis than what has occurred over the past few years.

I agree with the thought that Ivy League teams should play at neutral sites, tournaments, like Harvard does. It certainly improves the odds. Also, the scheduling of games against good teams is very important but having winnable games against good opponents is also important.

Strength of schedule as measured by KenPom as of today is:
Cornell 54
Princeton 52
Harvard 51
Columbia 45
Yale 45
Brown, Dartmouth and Penn below 41

Coaches really need to think thru and work thru the scheduling of games. There is a possibility that Harvard and Princeton will have a chance next year to get bids if they schedule games well but more importantly win some of those games. Moral victories (losses) will not get a bid.


 
SRP 
Postdoc
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02-09-16 10:53 PM - Post#201273    
    In response to dperry

Mr. James doesn't believe that the fix is in on these things at the NCAA level. Many of us don't agree. The WCC or the Missouri Valley Conference might be allowed to get a second team in on merit, but the Ivies--not likely, although I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-09-16 11:09 PM - Post#201275    
    In response to bradley

I think BYU might have been top 50 (or thereabouts) when they lost to Harvard.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
02-09-16 11:42 PM - Post#201276    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
I think BYU might have been top 50 (or thereabouts) when they lost to Harvard.



I am referencing the Kenpom rankings now not the ranking when the game was played much earlier in the season. The rankings now are more credible unless a team suffered major injuries, ie. BYU has now played 25 games vs. the Harvard game which was their 11th game of the season. The true color of a team comes out over the long haul in my opinion.

The overall point is that Ivy League teams have not been able to close the deal against the better teams in the country and I believe that the selection committee will look at strength of schedule and results against good competition to let a 2nd Ivy League team in.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
02-10-16 12:17 PM - Post#201289    
    In response to bradley

I don't believe the Ivy ever gets a second bid nor do I believe it's a big deal. Unless, of course, the Ivy tournament, assuming it's a fait accompli, is lost by a team like Harvard two years ago or Cornell's sweet 16 entry. Then you might see the Ivy champ seeded 15 or 16 and the loser seeded 8 or 9. Bids are bestowed upon teams that need the money

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-23-04
02-10-16 12:55 PM - Post#201291    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Need the money???

 
dperry 
Postdoc
Posts: 2211
dperry
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
02-16-16 12:34 AM - Post#201854    
    In response to whitakk

Well, things getting a bit more interesting on the women's side; as of today, Penn is 36 and Princeton 38 in the RPI. At that rate, if they both win out against the rest of the league and their NC opponents keep doing well, it's not inconceivable that they could both be in the 20's going into the return match.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-27-16 05:08 AM - Post#202771    
    In response to dperry

Just heard Roy Williams, of all people, say that he wished the ACC would award the automatic bid to the regular season champion. Heresy from an old-school ACC guy, the conference that invented the post-season tournament.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
02-27-16 10:42 AM - Post#202789    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Just heard Roy Williams, of all people, say that he wished the ACC would award the automatic bid to the regular season champion. Heresy from an old-school ACC guy, the conference that invented the post-season tournament.


Doubly interesting because the winner of the ACC (known locally as the "All Carolina Conference") tournament, if team other than Duke or UNC, has always made a point about telling the media that the real ACC champion is the tournament winner, not the regular season winner. Issue usually comes up when UNC or Duke win the regular season but another team wins the tournament and the media refers to the other team as the "Tournament winner" and the Duke/INC as the ACC champ.

As you know, Williams came to UNC as coach from a long stint at Kansas, so maybe he had a chance to understand the world from a non-ACC perspective. Or maybe he's just tired of ACC tournament pressure.


 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
02-27-16 02:38 PM - Post#202805    
    In response to sparman

If the Tournament crowd must be appeased, then give the guaranteed bid to the regular season Champion and let the 2-5 also-rans strut their stuff in a 4 team elimination for the right to play against the real Champ. Then, the NCAA can decide whether any also-ran is worthy of an additional bid. The regular season Champ also gets a tune up game for the NCAA first round out of this arrangement regardless of the outcome of its game against the best of the also-rans. The Tournament can be called The AR Tourney.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-16 04:21 PM - Post#202830    
    In response to Tiger69

Not sure if you meant this in jest, but actually... if you tweak this a bit and say... the No. 1 team gets the bid, but 2-5 play a four-team, three-game tourney for an NIT auto-bid, that would actually be very interesting.

The Ivy League could easily have 4-5 Top 100 teams going forward (we already had 4 in 2012) and giving the 2-seed a chance to earn one or two more Top 100 wins could be an important boost toward an NCAA at-large bid. It won't happen, but it's a really cool and potentially effective proposal.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-27-16 04:32 PM - Post#202833    
    In response to mrjames

I agree with Mike. That would be cool.

 
westphillywarrior 
Sophomore
Posts: 196

Age: 43
Reg: 01-08-11
02-27-16 05:32 PM - Post#202839    
    In response to mrjames

If "the Ivy League could easily have 4-5 Top 100 teams going forward" and all you seem to care about is getting more teams into the tournament, why not just push for a 128 team tournament?

The Ivy League 14 game tournament is a wonderful thing with the championship prize the automatic tournament bid. Don't screw that up.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-27-16 05:43 PM - Post#202845    
    In response to westphillywarrior

I care about this being a national Top 10 league for basketball in the long run, but in the short run, I care about this league being recognized as a quality mid-major league (which it has been for this entire decade) rather than the low-major, one-bid group everyone thinks it is.

I also couldn't care less about preserving the sanctity of the former king of the ant hill league we used to have. I don't care who wins the 14 Game Tournament in a league mired in the 20s nationally. If that's the focus, then let's just go D-III.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
02-27-16 07:44 PM - Post#202869    
    In response to mrjames

I wasn't kidding a bit. The season champ gets the NCAA bid automatically as at present. The AR Tourney showcases the other contenders for consideration for another NCAA bid and/or an NIT bid. Just because other conferences downgrade their season champion with a Tournament doesn't mean we should follow. We're supposed to be smarter .

 
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