HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-07-16 02:47 PM - Post#201113
No Zena, Chris Egi hits 3 in a row, but Harvard still shoots 17 for 30 - 56.7% from the line on the weekend. 8 for 10 vs Penn, but 9-20 vs Princeton.
Now further firmly ensconced at the bottom of NCAA Div 1 at 57.7%. Penn (62.4%) and Cornell (63.4%) are among worst 16 teams, giving Ivy League 3 teams in 5th percentile.
Yale, at 65.5%, is ranked 299th. Could that be the achilles heel vs Princeton (68.5%, 213th) or Columbia (71.9%, 92nd)?
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CrimsonWest
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02-13-16 10:21 AM - Post#201480
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
In a game with no flow and 52 fouls called, Harvard made the free throws down the stretch to hang on and beat Brown. While 24-34, it is a huge improvement over past performance. It was good to see Zena back on the floor.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-13-16 10:33 AM - Post#201484
In response to CrimsonWest
Yes CW, but both coaches swapped offense and defense in the closing minutes. Zena didn't play a lot in the last 10 minutes. If Evan hadn't fouled out with about 4 minutes left I wonder if Zena even plays on the defensive substitutions.
Montague out for Yale this weekend. As Harvard experienced last weekend, Ivy Saturday nights can be difficult when a team is playing shorthanded and starters have to go 35+ minutes two nights in a row. Hoping Crimson make it interesting tonight and Zena is at full strength.
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whitakk
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02-13-16 11:40 AM - Post#201495
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
13-16 to close out the game. (And they needed it, because the defense was terrible in the final two minutes.)
http://www.nycbuckets.com/2016/02/harvard-79-br own...
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bradley
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02-13-16 04:32 PM - Post#201527
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
If Zena is healthy, it will be interesting to see the result of his one on one with Sears. Should be a battle. It will be interesting to see if they double up on Crimson C.
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digamma
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02-13-16 05:21 PM - Post#201532
In response to bradley
I'm wondering if Harvard will match up Cummins or Okolie on Sears.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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Free Throws
02-15-16 05:45 PM - Post#201813
In response to digamma
Led by Seth Towns' 35 points, 11 rbs and 5 steals, Northland Ohio (19-2) won the Columbus, Ohio City Championship 46-45. Towns (31.9ppg) is now two points behind Jared Sullinger, Northland's career point leader.
Why do I submit this to a thread on free throws? Towns went 16-18 from the line.
Looking around, Justin Bassey of Colorado Academy shoots 63% from the line while scoring 24.3ppg.
Can't seem to find such detail for Chris Lewis, Robert Baker Jr. or Bryce Aiken.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-15-16 05:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-16-16 10:12 PM - Post#201919
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Just looked at IHO Power Rankings that have Harvard 5th. I'm certainly disappointed about performance thus far, but if Zena hadn't gotten hurt I'd venture to say Harvard could have finished off Columbia as Harvard led by 10 when Zena was injured. The next week, Zena would easily have throttled DNH, thus neutralizing Penn.
If that was the case, Harvard would still be a disappointing 4-4, but would be in their rightful position at 4th in the league, looking to tie Columbia for 3rd on Friday. Also, Columbia would be basically eliminated from contention already.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 01:35 AM - Post#201928
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Hmmm. I am pretty sure there were 3 Penn players who had double-doubles and we outrebounded the crimson by 20+ in a 10 pt win. Let's forget the fact that Penn was playing without their two best players. I am sorry but Zena playing doesn't make up that spread.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-17-16 10:03 AM - Post#201939
In response to PennFan10
First of all, I'd like to acknowledge that under Donahue I'm glad to see Penn heading in a better direction. Nevertheless, I'll take Siyani, Zena and Evan Cummins (who was ill) over Hicks and Woods.
Penn's offense and rebounding was effective that game because its 6'11" center was able to get uncontested inside position. I don't think that happens if Zena and Evan are healthy. Last year, Zena neutralized DNH, holding him to 8 pts and 7 rbs - in two games. DNH had as many fouls as points. I understand that DNH may have improved, but Zena is likely the most improved player in the league.
Regardless, I hope to see them match up the final weekend!
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 11:52 AM - Post#201952
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
This isn't about Siyani, Zena and poor old Evan over Hicks and Woods. Matt Howard and Max Rothschild also had double doubles along with DNH. Zena can't guard 3 people. While DNH has certainly been neutralized by big, athletic centers, You lost by 10. and were outrebounded by 21 I understand your program has been markedly better than Penn and likely will be going forward for the foreseeable future but Zena would not have changed the outcome in that game.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-17-16 12:54 PM - Post#201957
In response to PennFan10
Understand your perspective PennFan10, but I don't agree with you. If Penn played without DNH and without either of Rothschild or Howard, I think Zena and Evan would have had a field day. Also, remember, it was a 3 point game within the final 9 minutes.
Sometimes, the effect of missing a player is greater than it appears. Again, look at KenPom #51 Yale losing to #101 Albany by 34 when Sears sat out with an eye issue. On the other hand, Yale didn't miss a beat without Montague last weekend. Missing a key big is a world of difference. Without Zena and regular minutes and energy from Evan, Harvard was reduced to perimeter play with no inside-out passing and had to use Okolie as a forward/center. The result was that Harvard's guards had to create their own shots, resulting in 5-38 shooting. Before you credit this statistic to Penn's defense, note that this group shoots roughly 36% against teams like Oklahoma, Kansas, BYU, Auburn, Providence, Yale, etc. The difference was that there was no inside presence to work off of (as well as the cumulative effect of needing to field a 3 and even 4 guard lineup for a second night in a row).
The reason that three Penn players had double doubles is that the Penn players were rebounding and scoring inside against a lineup that often consisted of a 6'6" backup forward playing center (Egi/Perez), a guard playing out of position (Okolie/Steeves), and three shooting guards (Johnson, Miller, McCarthy, Chatfield). Harvard tries to use a three guard, two forward lineup, but had to do so without its forwards.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 02:44 PM - Post#201962
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Well, that makes sense until you see Harvard has 2 losses to Cornell(at home) and Dartmouth by double digits in games that both Zena and Cummins played. Those lineups look like the exact same people that lost to Oklahoma and Kansas. But I am sure you should have won those too right?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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Free Throws
02-17-16 03:14 PM - Post#201964
In response to PennFan10
No, but Harvard was competitive with those top 5 teams plus Providence (#21). Harvard did beat BYU and Auburn (by 20).
This is not a very consistent or well balanced Harvard team for many reasons. One is the lack at depth at PG, which is unusual for Ivy teams. Another is lack of depth at PF/C, which is not unusual for Ivy teams. A third is the worst free throw shooting in the nation.
Thus, Harvard has lost games when teams press as it is vulnerable because it only has a single freshman ball handler. Harvard is also at risk in close games due to its abysmal FT shooting (see Columbia loss foremost, but also Dartmouth and Cornell losses). Because of a lack of quickness in its guards, teams can penetrate. Harvard competes when Zena and Evan defend the rim, rebound, score, and open up 3's for the bevy of shooting guards. None of those things can happen when Zena (and Evan) are MIA.
I never said this was a very good team, however, without Zena and with Evan ailing, it is a very bad team - likely the worst in the league. I believe that has cost the Crimson two wins: (1) vs Columbia when Zena was re-injured with 15 minutes left, and (2) vs Penn. That only makes Harvard a 4-4 Ivy team. However, that is not the team Penn played. Again, imagine Penn without DNH and with another big ailing. A healthy Harvard would blow that team away, and in my opinion, would have beaten Penn at Penn. That's my point.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-17-16 03:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mrjames
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Re: Free Throws
02-17-16 03:56 PM - Post#201968
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I don't want to get into games Harvard should have or would have won.
I do want to talk about the injury point, though, because it's a good one. The effect of injuries is highly variable depending (mostly) on the waterfall of replacement minutes with which a team can backfill the loss.
Harvard has four true post defenders on its roster, one of which is a freshman that isn't ready for D-I action yet. Another is Chris Egi, who is coming along defensively, but is a complete liability on offense. That leaves Zena and Evan. Given how Harvard likes to play defense - aggressively funneling opponents toward two-point shots that its bigs can contest - Harvard has to have very active bigs to be successful defensively (Amaker's teams have been 61st or better in block rate six of the past seven seasons). When Evan is sick and Zena is out, Harvard struggles defensively. And even moreso, it struggles offensively, because no one can eat possessions like Zena.
Given what Harvard has behind Zena, it's a very, very close battle between Zena and JSears over which player has the most value over replacement player in this league. But the Crimson are an almost unidentifiable team when Zena is out relative to when he's on the court.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 04:03 PM - Post#201970
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I disagree. Zena would not have made the difference and Cummin played so the "he was hurt" card carries no credibility. If you can play you can play well. DNH was not at full strength either, having missed the previous week plus with an ankle sprain. And last year, when Zena "held DNH in check" it is well documented DNH was running at about 50% so the injury excuse works both ways.
At some point a team's success has to be measured by the team's they beat vs the teams they lost to. Harvard has two good wins on their resume (Although Auburn is 9-15) and nothing else. Zena would not have changed the outcome and I don't buy the "Evan was ailing" defense.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-17-16 04:44 PM - Post#201972
In response to PennFan10
Ok, so a Penn injury matters, but a Harvard DNP doesn't? I thought you argued that if a player suits up 'he can play well.' So DNH can be hampered, but Evan can't be? Maybe you should check your arguments for consistency. Evan was so sick he didn't make it out of the locker room for the second half the prior night. You are in no position to know.
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mrjames
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02-17-16 05:49 PM - Post#201978
In response to PennFan10
Yeah, I don't find that argument compelling at all. When Harvard's going well, these guys play 60 mins and leave very few mins to be covered by Steeves, Egi and Okolie defending the 4 and with lower usage guys on the offensive end.
Getting 21 mins from a sick Cummins means that there's 19 mins of an empty frontcourt to cover and 40 mins without Zena to eat possessions offensively. It's hard to imagine two players for Harvard that would be harder to overcome losing in tandem than Z and Cummins. Maybe Corbin and TMac together...?
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 06:02 PM - Post#201980
In response to mrjames
HavardGrad, I was using your argument against you. Of course I don't believe a player, who is on the floor, can complain of being hurt and complaints from that teams fans, after the fact, is just sour grapes. But you said Cummins was hurt while playing. So I said "so was DNH" and he still beat your butt. So our hurt big whooped yours if you want to say it that way. But we never used DNH injury as an excuse. Give the team that won a little credit for playing harder than your team. Jeez.
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bradley
PhD Student
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02-17-16 06:35 PM - Post#201984
In response to PennFan10
From an outsider's perspective who did not watch the game, it makes no sense that Zena's absence would not have a significant impact on the game. I know when Zena did not suit up against the Tigers, there was a sign of relief at Jadwin. It certainly does not help that Cummins missed significant minutes especially with Zena's injury although Cummins is certainly not an impact player. Chambers missing the season and Hicks/Woods absence obviously had a significant impact on both teams albeit I doubt that either team was going to be 13-1 this season.
What would have been the outcome of the game if the injured/ill players were on the floor -- who knows but it makes no sense to make a statement that Zena's absence had no effect on the final score. The reality is that you play with who is available and a lack of depth in the Ivies or any Division I conference will catch up to you.
In fairness, when Zena was not on the floor against Columbia for 7 minutes in the second half, his absence had no impact on the score but it was only for 7 minutes. The problem seems to be his supporting cast and when Zena gets double teamed, the Harvard offense can simply not take advantage.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-17-16 06:37 PM - Post#201985
In response to PennFan10
That's not my point at all. At least another poster saw it.
No, you actually said DNH was hurt last year and so the fact that Zena shut him down isn't representative. That's exactly my point, Penn didn't play Harvard's frontcourt.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 09:35 PM - Post#202006
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Bradley,
I didn't say Zena would have not had an impact. What I said was he wasn't going to make enough of an impact in that game to affect the outcome. Penn still wins that game with Zena on the floor. He isn't 21 rebounds and 23% from 3 better when he plays. Those are huge differences that one player in that game simply isn't changing. Of course he would have had an impact.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 09:40 PM - Post#202007
In response to PennFan10
HVG
You didn't understand my post somI obviously wasn't clear. I was trying to point out the fallacy that saying Cummins was hurt and Zena dominated DNH last year is inconsistent. I personally don't believe a player who is on the floor has any excuse so I don't believe DNH last year OR Cummins this year makes a difference. That opinion is consistent. Yours is not.
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mrjames
Professor
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Free Throws
02-17-16 10:17 PM - Post#202010
In response to PennFan10
Again, I think it's silly to project what an outcome "would have been" if certain players had played, primarily because there's uncertainty around individual outcomes. If Harvard replayed the game against Penn with the same personnel, it would win some trials. If it replayed the game at full strength, it would still lose some trials.
The more relevant question is indeed the impact that the losses had. Looking at the two primary areas that Evan and Zena Impact defensively (oppt 2pt % and oppt OREB % - and you have to use rates here, not margin, because margin is a function of rebounding skill plus number of shots missed, whereas rates on each end isolate the skill)...
Harvard's weekend versus Penn and Princeton produced its two worst DREB efforts of the season and two of its five worst 2pt FG% allowed performances of the season. That's strong evidence that Harvard's interior defense just can't survive without those two on the court. Offensively you saw two completely different philosophies from Friday to Saturday night, which indicates complete disarray as lower usage players were required to see what they could do to fill the missing possessions.
While I agree that a fully healthy Harvard team would probably be 4-4 in the Ivy, I would hesitate to point to certain games it would have won in retrospect and others it would have lost. In any given sim, it might be a different four wins than another sim.
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Mike Porter
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02-17-16 10:58 PM - Post#202015
In response to mrjames
Mike - completely agree. I think PennFan10 is really disputing this:
The next week, Zena would easily have throttled DNH, thus neutralizing Penn.
That is a very specific/definitive comment, and while maybe that COULD have happened, it was a possible outcome and NOT guaranteed (which is basically how it was represented).
If all goes well and folks are healthy, will be an interesting rematch.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 11:13 PM - Post#202017
In response to mrjames
That's a reasonable analysis.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-17-16 11:59 PM - Post#202023
In response to PennFan10
Hope the final game of the season sees the matchup of Zena vs DNH. Obviously, I do feel strongly that Zena will more than "make up" for the difference.
As for my "next week" prognostication, Zena returned last weekend against Yale to post a double-double (18-10) as Harvard outrebounded Yale. Yale outrebounds Ivy opponents by 10 per game - and outrebounded Penn by 16.
Again, I'm not criticizing Penn and the turnaround they are having, just emphasizing that a strong frontcourt performance against Harvard - especially on the boards - was meaningless given the personnel that night.
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PennFan10
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02-18-16 10:19 AM - Post#202037
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Again, your selective analysis fails to mention DNH didn't play against Yale.
I have no idea what will happen in the March rematch. I do know it will have nothing to do with what happened last weekend at the Palestra. The first game may have been an outlier of projected outcomes. it wasn't just DNH who beat Harvard and it wasn't just 3 players with double double doubles. That night, Penn was better than Harvard at almost every position and Zena, no matter how superhuman he may be, wasn't going to change that overall outcome.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-18-16 11:24 AM - Post#202042
In response to PennFan10
Ah, I guess DNH would have made a difference?
We'll just have to disagree.
Read Mike James post on this again. For Harvard 2015-16, everything changes when Zena can't play. Evan's limitation compounded the issue.
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PennFan10
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Free Throws
02-18-16 01:04 PM - Post#202046
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Yes DNH would have made a difference vs Yale, and Zena would have made a difference vs Penn. Neither of them would have changed the outcome. You can keep selectively changing the facts to fit your desired outcome but it doesn't change the reality.
And "everything changes when Zena can't play" implies it changes for the better when he does play. But then there are double digit losses to Dartmouth and Cornell that are glaring at me. Sorry, I am not buying what you're selling. And whatever the result come March 5 won't change history either.
Edited by PennFan10 on 02-18-16 01:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-18-16 03:01 PM - Post#202054
In response to PennFan10
Ok, so Mike James and Kevin Whittaker aren't enough for you? From today's Big Apple Buckets Ivy League Midseason Review:
In six games with Zena Edosomwan at least partially healthy, Harvard has only been outscored by .06 ppp; in two games without him, that ballooned to .23. That’s not a perfectly fair comparison — he missed two road games against top-half teams — but it illustrates how important the Crimson’s star center is.
The falloff was actually greater on defense than offense. Harvard’s defense isn’t as strong as last year’s title-winning group, but it’s still been above average this season. It relies on rim protection from Edosomwan, Evan Cummins and Agunwa Okolie, who have led the Crimson to a league-best block rate. (Cummins was also ill in the games Edosomwan missed.)
The Crimson’s offense is designed to feature Edosomwan and three-pointers.
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PennFan10
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Free Throws
02-18-16 03:26 PM - Post#202056
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
"Your Honor, I strenuously object"
Mike James said "I think it's silly to project what an outcome 'would have been' if certain players had played, primarily because there's uncertainty around individual outcomes."
I agree completely with this. What part of that don't you get? I agree with Kevin Whittaker too. We all agree Zena would have made a big difference. I still believe Penn wins that game Zena or no. Why do you keep pretending I am saying anything different than that?
Edited by PennFan10 on 02-18-16 03:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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Re: Free Throws
02-18-16 05:55 PM - Post#202061
In response to PennFan10
I'm not.
I just think that Harvard wins with Zena.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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02-18-16 07:41 PM - Post#202064
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Yep. And I think they lost by 10+ to lesser teams with Zena in the lineup so you are suffering from 'irrational exuberance'
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Stuart Suss
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02-18-16 07:42 PM - Post#202065
In response to PennFan10
PennFan10
You are embarrassing all other Penn fans.
You have stated your opinion and repeated it and repeated it and repeated it.
Let it go.
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H78
PhD Student
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02-18-16 09:00 PM - Post#202067
In response to Stuart Suss
Thank you, Stuart!
Voice of Reason = Stuart Suss
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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 02-19-16 01:03 AM - Post#202080
In response to H78
I work for the department of redundancy department!
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CrimsonWest
Sophomore
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02-19-16 09:48 AM - Post#202086
In response to PennFan10
Let's hope the game in Cambridge is meaningful for post season hopes for both teams. Penn has a little more room for error than Harvard does, but both have a tough road to get to .500. Good luck to both this weekend.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-21-16 08:19 PM - Post#202358
In response to CrimsonWest
Harvard inches ahead of Florida A&M. No longer worst free throw shooting team in the nation!
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H78
PhD Student
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02-23-16 06:39 AM - Post#202482
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Tada!!!!!
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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03-08-16 11:43 AM - Post#203756
In response to bradley
Harvard edges out Florida A&M by .1% to finish as second worst FT shooting team in the nation!
By the way, kudos to Agunwa for obviously working on his technique, improving to 63% from 48.5% the prior year. He looked much better at the line.
While I'm on Agunwa, I'm hoping he gets recognized for All Ivy and possibly Defensive Player of the Year. He handled the opponents best offensive player all year and - in conference - he averaged 13.2 ppg and was top 5 in rebounding and shooting percentage. Really a strong leader and player. Despite the influx of talent, he will be missed.
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