HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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02-07-16 02:47 PM - Post#201113
No Zena, Chris Egi hits 3 in a row, but Harvard still shoots 17 for 30 - 56.7% from the line on the weekend. 8 for 10 vs Penn, but 9-20 vs Princeton.
Now further firmly ensconced at the bottom of NCAA Div 1 at 57.7%. Penn (62.4%) and Cornell (63.4%) are among worst 16 teams, giving Ivy League 3 teams in 5th percentile.
Yale, at 65.5%, is ranked 299th. Could that be the achilles heel vs Princeton (68.5%, 213th) or Columbia (71.9%, 92nd)?
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CrimsonWest
Sophomore
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02-13-16 10:21 AM - Post#201480
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
In a game with no flow and 52 fouls called, Harvard made the free throws down the stretch to hang on and beat Brown. While 24-34, it is a huge improvement over past performance. It was good to see Zena back on the floor.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-13-16 10:33 AM - Post#201484
In response to CrimsonWest
Yes CW, but both coaches swapped offense and defense in the closing minutes. Zena didn't play a lot in the last 10 minutes. If Evan hadn't fouled out with about 4 minutes left I wonder if Zena even plays on the defensive substitutions.
Montague out for Yale this weekend. As Harvard experienced last weekend, Ivy Saturday nights can be difficult when a team is playing shorthanded and starters have to go 35+ minutes two nights in a row. Hoping Crimson make it interesting tonight and Zena is at full strength.
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whitakk
Masters Student
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Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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02-13-16 11:40 AM - Post#201495
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
13-16 to close out the game. (And they needed it, because the defense was terrible in the final two minutes.)
http://www.nycbuckets.com/2016/02/harvard-79-br own...
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bradley
PhD Student
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02-13-16 04:32 PM - Post#201527
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
If Zena is healthy, it will be interesting to see the result of his one on one with Sears. Should be a battle. It will be interesting to see if they double up on Crimson C.
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digamma
Masters Student
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02-13-16 05:21 PM - Post#201532
In response to bradley
I'm wondering if Harvard will match up Cummins or Okolie on Sears.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Free Throws
02-15-16 05:45 PM - Post#201813
In response to digamma
Led by Seth Towns' 35 points, 11 rbs and 5 steals, Northland Ohio (19-2) won the Columbus, Ohio City Championship 46-45. Towns (31.9ppg) is now two points behind Jared Sullinger, Northland's career point leader.
Why do I submit this to a thread on free throws? Towns went 16-18 from the line.
Looking around, Justin Bassey of Colorado Academy shoots 63% from the line while scoring 24.3ppg.
Can't seem to find such detail for Chris Lewis, Robert Baker Jr. or Bryce Aiken.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-15-16 05:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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02-16-16 10:12 PM - Post#201919
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Just looked at IHO Power Rankings that have Harvard 5th. I'm certainly disappointed about performance thus far, but if Zena hadn't gotten hurt I'd venture to say Harvard could have finished off Columbia as Harvard led by 10 when Zena was injured. The next week, Zena would easily have throttled DNH, thus neutralizing Penn.
If that was the case, Harvard would still be a disappointing 4-4, but would be in their rightful position at 4th in the league, looking to tie Columbia for 3rd on Friday. Also, Columbia would be basically eliminated from contention already.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 01:35 AM - Post#201928
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Hmmm. I am pretty sure there were 3 Penn players who had double-doubles and we outrebounded the crimson by 20+ in a 10 pt win. Let's forget the fact that Penn was playing without their two best players. I am sorry but Zena playing doesn't make up that spread.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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02-17-16 10:03 AM - Post#201939
In response to PennFan10
First of all, I'd like to acknowledge that under Donahue I'm glad to see Penn heading in a better direction. Nevertheless, I'll take Siyani, Zena and Evan Cummins (who was ill) over Hicks and Woods.
Penn's offense and rebounding was effective that game because its 6'11" center was able to get uncontested inside position. I don't think that happens if Zena and Evan are healthy. Last year, Zena neutralized DNH, holding him to 8 pts and 7 rbs - in two games. DNH had as many fouls as points. I understand that DNH may have improved, but Zena is likely the most improved player in the league.
Regardless, I hope to see them match up the final weekend!
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 11:52 AM - Post#201952
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
This isn't about Siyani, Zena and poor old Evan over Hicks and Woods. Matt Howard and Max Rothschild also had double doubles along with DNH. Zena can't guard 3 people. While DNH has certainly been neutralized by big, athletic centers, You lost by 10. and were outrebounded by 21 I understand your program has been markedly better than Penn and likely will be going forward for the foreseeable future but Zena would not have changed the outcome in that game.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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02-17-16 12:54 PM - Post#201957
In response to PennFan10
Understand your perspective PennFan10, but I don't agree with you. If Penn played without DNH and without either of Rothschild or Howard, I think Zena and Evan would have had a field day. Also, remember, it was a 3 point game within the final 9 minutes.
Sometimes, the effect of missing a player is greater than it appears. Again, look at KenPom #51 Yale losing to #101 Albany by 34 when Sears sat out with an eye issue. On the other hand, Yale didn't miss a beat without Montague last weekend. Missing a key big is a world of difference. Without Zena and regular minutes and energy from Evan, Harvard was reduced to perimeter play with no inside-out passing and had to use Okolie as a forward/center. The result was that Harvard's guards had to create their own shots, resulting in 5-38 shooting. Before you credit this statistic to Penn's defense, note that this group shoots roughly 36% against teams like Oklahoma, Kansas, BYU, Auburn, Providence, Yale, etc. The difference was that there was no inside presence to work off of (as well as the cumulative effect of needing to field a 3 and even 4 guard lineup for a second night in a row).
The reason that three Penn players had double doubles is that the Penn players were rebounding and scoring inside against a lineup that often consisted of a 6'6" backup forward playing center (Egi/Perez), a guard playing out of position (Okolie/Steeves), and three shooting guards (Johnson, Miller, McCarthy, Chatfield). Harvard tries to use a three guard, two forward lineup, but had to do so without its forwards.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 02:44 PM - Post#201962
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Well, that makes sense until you see Harvard has 2 losses to Cornell(at home) and Dartmouth by double digits in games that both Zena and Cummins played. Those lineups look like the exact same people that lost to Oklahoma and Kansas. But I am sure you should have won those too right?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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Free Throws
02-17-16 03:14 PM - Post#201964
In response to PennFan10
No, but Harvard was competitive with those top 5 teams plus Providence (#21). Harvard did beat BYU and Auburn (by 20).
This is not a very consistent or well balanced Harvard team for many reasons. One is the lack at depth at PG, which is unusual for Ivy teams. Another is lack of depth at PF/C, which is not unusual for Ivy teams. A third is the worst free throw shooting in the nation.
Thus, Harvard has lost games when teams press as it is vulnerable because it only has a single freshman ball handler. Harvard is also at risk in close games due to its abysmal FT shooting (see Columbia loss foremost, but also Dartmouth and Cornell losses). Because of a lack of quickness in its guards, teams can penetrate. Harvard competes when Zena and Evan defend the rim, rebound, score, and open up 3's for the bevy of shooting guards. None of those things can happen when Zena (and Evan) are MIA.
I never said this was a very good team, however, without Zena and with Evan ailing, it is a very bad team - likely the worst in the league. I believe that has cost the Crimson two wins: (1) vs Columbia when Zena was re-injured with 15 minutes left, and (2) vs Penn. That only makes Harvard a 4-4 Ivy team. However, that is not the team Penn played. Again, imagine Penn without DNH and with another big ailing. A healthy Harvard would blow that team away, and in my opinion, would have beaten Penn at Penn. That's my point.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-17-16 03:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mrjames
Professor
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Re: Free Throws
02-17-16 03:56 PM - Post#201968
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I don't want to get into games Harvard should have or would have won.
I do want to talk about the injury point, though, because it's a good one. The effect of injuries is highly variable depending (mostly) on the waterfall of replacement minutes with which a team can backfill the loss.
Harvard has four true post defenders on its roster, one of which is a freshman that isn't ready for D-I action yet. Another is Chris Egi, who is coming along defensively, but is a complete liability on offense. That leaves Zena and Evan. Given how Harvard likes to play defense - aggressively funneling opponents toward two-point shots that its bigs can contest - Harvard has to have very active bigs to be successful defensively (Amaker's teams have been 61st or better in block rate six of the past seven seasons). When Evan is sick and Zena is out, Harvard struggles defensively. And even moreso, it struggles offensively, because no one can eat possessions like Zena.
Given what Harvard has behind Zena, it's a very, very close battle between Zena and JSears over which player has the most value over replacement player in this league. But the Crimson are an almost unidentifiable team when Zena is out relative to when he's on the court.
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PennFan10
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02-17-16 04:03 PM - Post#201970
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I disagree. Zena would not have made the difference and Cummin played so the "he was hurt" card carries no credibility. If you can play you can play well. DNH was not at full strength either, having missed the previous week plus with an ankle sprain. And last year, when Zena "held DNH in check" it is well documented DNH was running at about 50% so the injury excuse works both ways.
At some point a team's success has to be measured by the team's they beat vs the teams they lost to. Harvard has two good wins on their resume (Although Auburn is 9-15) and nothing else. Zena would not have changed the outcome and I don't buy the "Evan was ailing" defense.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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02-17-16 04:44 PM - Post#201972
In response to PennFan10
Ok, so a Penn injury matters, but a Harvard DNP doesn't? I thought you argued that if a player suits up 'he can play well.' So DNH can be hampered, but Evan can't be? Maybe you should check your arguments for consistency. Evan was so sick he didn't make it out of the locker room for the second half the prior night. You are in no position to know.
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mrjames
Professor
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02-17-16 05:49 PM - Post#201978
In response to PennFan10
Yeah, I don't find that argument compelling at all. When Harvard's going well, these guys play 60 mins and leave very few mins to be covered by Steeves, Egi and Okolie defending the 4 and with lower usage guys on the offensive end.
Getting 21 mins from a sick Cummins means that there's 19 mins of an empty frontcourt to cover and 40 mins without Zena to eat possessions offensively. It's hard to imagine two players for Harvard that would be harder to overcome losing in tandem than Z and Cummins. Maybe Corbin and TMac together...?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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02-17-16 06:02 PM - Post#201980
In response to mrjames
HavardGrad, I was using your argument against you. Of course I don't believe a player, who is on the floor, can complain of being hurt and complaints from that teams fans, after the fact, is just sour grapes. But you said Cummins was hurt while playing. So I said "so was DNH" and he still beat your butt. So our hurt big whooped yours if you want to say it that way. But we never used DNH injury as an excuse. Give the team that won a little credit for playing harder than your team. Jeez.
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bradley
PhD Student
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02-17-16 06:35 PM - Post#201984
In response to PennFan10
From an outsider's perspective who did not watch the game, it makes no sense that Zena's absence would not have a significant impact on the game. I know when Zena did not suit up against the Tigers, there was a sign of relief at Jadwin. It certainly does not help that Cummins missed significant minutes especially with Zena's injury although Cummins is certainly not an impact player. Chambers missing the season and Hicks/Woods absence obviously had a significant impact on both teams albeit I doubt that either team was going to be 13-1 this season.
What would have been the outcome of the game if the injured/ill players were on the floor -- who knows but it makes no sense to make a statement that Zena's absence had no effect on the final score. The reality is that you play with who is available and a lack of depth in the Ivies or any Division I conference will catch up to you.
In fairness, when Zena was not on the floor against Columbia for 7 minutes in the second half, his absence had no impact on the score but it was only for 7 minutes. The problem seems to be his supporting cast and when Zena gets double teamed, the Harvard offense can simply not take advantage.
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