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Username Post: Win at Cornell        (Topic#18746)
H78 
PhD Student
Posts: 1458
H78
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
02-21-16 05:50 AM - Post#202277    

Remarkable comeback. Also, interesting starting lineup.

http://gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2015-16/b oxscores...

I didn't see the game live, but am intrigued that TA appears to have started Chatfield and Steeves, ahead of Zena and Corey Johnson.

Any insights?

P.S. Other than Cummins, who appears to have had an off night, the team shot decently from the Free Throw Line, at 68%. This clearly made a difference.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Re: Win at Cornell
02-21-16 12:24 PM - Post#202298    
    In response to H78

Very nice effort and victory for a team playing for pride.

When I saw the lineup I assumed it was for matchups. I believe Andre is thought to be a better defender than Corey. As for Zena, at Lavietes Zena had his way offensively when Onourah got into foul trouble. Same thing last night. When I saw the starting lineup I conjectured that since Onourah isn't much of an offensive threat that maybe Amaker wanted to see if he could manage for Zena to be on the court when Onourah wasn't. Sort of like trying to match lines in hockey.

No inside info, just my thoughts.



 
mrjames 
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-21-16 01:07 PM - Post#202305    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

It's a shame that the injuries had to dog Harvard at points this year. Would be interesting to see if they could make a run like Yale did in the CIT. Harvard's had a very weird season but the ceiling is high, for sure. The floor is also pretty low, especially if not all key pieces can go on a given night.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
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Win at Cornell
02-21-16 01:27 PM - Post#202309    
    In response to mrjames

Agree about the ceiling, but this year's team is far too streaky. Previous Harvard teams have often gone on runs within a game, but this team seems to allow too many runs against themselves. Games against Columbia I, Dartmouth II and both Cornell games come to mind. Harvard dominated, and was dominated, in the same game. In the past, Amaker would be able to call a timeout, throw experienced players on the court, and stem the bleeding. Not this year. Loss of Siyani is likely a key factor, and McCarthy's play last night showed glimpses of maturity. Regardless, in my estimation, there aren't enough experienced leaders who can run the offense on this year's squad to settle things down when they start going wrong.



Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-21-16 01:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
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Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-21-16 10:32 PM - Post#202376    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

There's such a stark dichotomy between what this team can and cannot do offensively. It puts the team on a knife edge, depending on how assiduous the defense is at exploiting their weaknesses. Catch-and-shoot play is impressive, with a couple of guys who put up a very entertaining high-trajectory shot. Edosomwan has finally refuted my skepticism, although he still has some distance to go to live up to the original hype.

But dribbling and passing under pressure have been dire and the FT shooting has been more down than up. Standing up to Cornell's relentless (if not usually too effective) double-teaming and trapping is a good sign for this team going forward. If they can get into their motion and stay there without coughing up the ball or getting forced into awkward plays, then the shooting ability and post play are there to hurt defenses.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-21-16 10:55 PM - Post#202380    
    In response to SRP

This team isn't going to the postseason, and it will be very different next year. I'm not going to worry about trying to figure out why it's been one of the highest variance teams (even within the same game) that I can recall.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-04-06
02-21-16 11:00 PM - Post#202381    
    In response to mrjames

I love to worry about stuff like that. Cause and effect and strengths and weaknesses and their interaction are interesting to me; it's a lot of the fascination of actually watching the game.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-21-16 11:01 PM - Post#202382    
    In response to mrjames

Sure, take the easy way out by recruiting to fill the holes instead of dwelling upon them.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-21-16 11:06 PM - Post#202383    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Also, the mob scene at next year's Harvard practices is going to require ushers on the court. Maybe one of those take-a-number machines you see in waiting rooms. So figuring out which pieces from this year will likely play a role--and what you want to them to work on over the summer--isn't a trivial exercise.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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02-21-16 11:10 PM - Post#202386    
    In response to SRP

That's why Tommy gets paid the big bucks!

 
mrjames 
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-21-16 11:14 PM - Post#202387    
    In response to SRP

Sure - but it's much easier to figure out which pieces will likely carry forward than why the whole doesn't seem to work consistently right now. It's going to take getting all those pieces on campus to truly know what you have and how much time will be left for the returning players.

 
digamma 
Masters Student
Posts: 466

Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
02-22-16 01:52 PM - Post#202431    
    In response to mrjames

So, on the initial topic, do the Crimson sportswriters not ask Tommy about the decision not to start Zena or does he just not answer questions like that? Seems like it would be one of the initial questions on the game.

Looking at the weekend, Zena got 46 minutes in two games. Don't we want that to be closer to 60?

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-22-16 02:07 PM - Post#202432    
    In response to digamma

Interesting questions about Zena's usage.

Here's another observation. I mentioned after the home Cornell loss that I was surprised Amaker went small in the latter stages of the second half. After that game, Amaker stated that his strategy didn't work and a Cornell coach spoke to me after the game and noted the same thing. This time around, once Onourah fouled out at the 3:35 mark Cornell went really small. On the video replay it looks like Hatter often got the task of boxing out Zena. In those final minutes, Zena grabbed 2 offensive rebounds, 2 defensive rebounds, blocked a shot, and dunked when Hatter drifted off of him.

I think Amaker absolutely got the point and I would again surmise that not starting Zena was a matchup concept. Other than Onourah, no one on Cornell could handle him. Even Courtney knew that, deciding to leave Stone Gettings on the bench in the final minutes.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Win at Cornell
02-22-16 03:45 PM - Post#202439    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I agree that the loss of Siyani to injury was a big loss for the Crimson this year although they may be better off having him next year if he returns healthy. Chambers would have certainly provided leadership and settling down the team this year when things got out of balance but realistically, he was not going to be a great scoring option when Zena tried to kick the ball out on double teams. Chambers shooting percentage and scoring average declined each year from his freshmen year with a junior shooting % in the mid thirties. Next year's Crimson team may well have been scoring options and Chamber's value seems to be more as a distributor than a scorer.

You never know but would Yale have been better off with Sherrod playing last year vs. this year --- time will tell. Will Princeton have been better off with Brase this year than next year? Is Columbia better off having Rosenberg and Mullins vs. last year. You never know but injuries do have an impact.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
02-22-16 04:37 PM - Post#202449    
    In response to bradley

Siyani is a penetrator/distributor. That's actually what this team is missing. Zena or Siyani dishing out to Johnson or Miller with McCarthy acting as a backup or tandem ball handler (eg, Chambers and Curry) would have worked much better with Chambers.

While rethinking years off, how about Casey and Curry? Harvard won with them ... and without them.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Re: Win at Cornell
02-24-16 12:21 AM - Post#202532    
    In response to H78

On why Zena sat at the start of the start of the Cornell game, David Tannenwald wrote in Harvard Magazine:

"After Friday’s loss to Columbia, Amaker said that the team needed more from the big man, particularly on defense—a topic that might have been on Edosomwan’s mind when he spent the waning minutes of Friday night and the start of Saturday’s game on the bench."

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Win at Cornell
02-24-16 10:20 AM - Post#202539    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I admire Coach Amaker as he seems to consistently do the right thing with his players. I know nothing about Edosomwan but his body language seems to suggest a guy who really likes to score maybe at the expense of fitting into a team structure. He obviously has improved significantly from his sophomore year although he has not dominated in the Ivies. Maybe, he thinks that he has a shot at the pros and needs to put up numbers but at 6'9" he would need an outside shot to even have a chance to make it.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Win at Cornell
02-24-16 09:26 PM - Post#202569    
    In response to bradley

Interesting question about what might have been. Sherrod would have helped Yale last year, but would he have started over Townsend? If he did start, would he have been anything close to what he's been this year with Duren taking up possessions? My thought is that Sherrod taking the year off was positive because it maximized two bites at the apple. Ibut if they come up short both times, maybe they would have been best off stacked in 2015.

Brase is similar. They have enough to compete without him this year, and with him may have a shot at Harvard next year.

Columbia is a little different, because they probably only had/have a chance in whichever year Rosie and Mullins play. I think the better shot is this year, but that is based on what may be a bad assumption -- that the top of the league isn't as good this year. While I came in thinking that and can't quite shake it, Pomeroy and the numbers say that Yale and Princeton in 2016 are better than Harvard and Yale in 2015. So maybe Columbia would've had a better shot last year.



 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Re: Win at Cornell
02-24-16 10:11 PM - Post#202573    
    In response to SomeGuy

Harvard wasn't really expected to be very good in 2014-15. Most of the year the Crimson really struggled on offense, with Saunders having to shoulder almost the entire scoring burden, especially in the closing seconds. Siyani was the only point guard and Mondou-Missi became a shooter because of the lack of other options, including a reliable three point threat. If Sherrod played, I really believe Yale wins the league (and Sherrod starts over Townsend), or maybe Victor sits.

I believed Yale and Princeton 2015-16 were stronger teams than Harvard/Yale 2014-15. However, without Montague, I believe that - late into a physical season and with the final four games over 9 nights - Princeton's depth will prevail.

Sherrod may regret having sat out last season.

By the way, that's why I don't really buy into the Evil Harvard Dynasty. Yale could have won last year and Princeton three years ago (when Casey/Curry sat out).

Dynastys don't sneak by every other year.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Win at Cornell
02-25-16 02:50 PM - Post#202627    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

One note -- Victor did sit last year. He only played 42 minutes all year (I assume because he wasn't right physically). Armani Cotton was the 5th starter for Yale, and Greg Kelley was the primary backup big man.

 
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