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Username Post: Jack Montague        (Topic#18754)
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1256

Age: 70
Reg: 01-15-16
06-30-19 05:51 PM - Post#285474    
    In response to dperry

Some people jumped all over Montague during the early days of the alleged scandal without facts - guilty as charged? Very serious allegations indeed that required a thorough and unbiased investigation so that the correct decision would be made by Yale although it is very challenging to make the proper decision in this type of case. Yale, like any university, needs to be careful as what actions they take as litigation is always a distinct possibility from either side. Does not surprise me that Yale ultimately decided to settle this matter and it may be for a substancial amount.

Everyone in this country should have a presumption of innocense but if they commit a crime or wrongdoing, there should obviously be consequences that fit the crime.

In a serious but less consequential matter, Princeton appears to have taken its time in the Cannady matter but due process is important. Princeton did receive some criticism in their handling which is not unusual,

Hopefully but perhaps unlikely, there will be less of a rush to judgement in the future -- we can only hope. Let the facts drive the correct outcome.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 22739

Reg: 11-21-04
07-01-19 07:02 AM - Post#285476    
    In response to bradley

Pretty big difference between an alleged sexual assault of a student and a late night drunken altercation at a Wawa where no one was hurt. I frankly think Cannady should have received what anyone else in that situation would have received---a slap on the wrist on a first offense.

Montague is far more complicated. From what I have come to believe from public information is that it is yet another case of frat boy behavior running head on into Me-Too. It's a blurry line in terms of criminal behavior, but a guy who is a star on the basketball team should know that his behavior will be scrutinized far more closely than some random frat guy and act more gentlemanly (proper word to use at Yale) with women. That is not to judge him criminally. But I don't think this accusation is made if there wasn't uncivil behavior involved.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1256

Age: 70
Reg: 01-15-16
07-01-19 01:36 PM - Post#285482    
    In response to palestra38

It strikes me that there are two separate issues that often get blurred by commentators.

The first issue is that an institution such as Yale has a moral and legal responsibility to create an environment where women are not abused by "frat boys" or anyone else. These institutions need to have well spelled out guidelines that are properly communicated to the student population. Yale or any insitution also needs to make sure that they have mechanisms in place to properly and fairly investigate allegations. I have no idea as to what was the climate created by Yale but if they did not properly administer a program, they would be subject to litigation by a woman or women and rightfully so.

As to Montague or any other student, they have a right to due process and receive fair treatment. They are not simply guilty because allegations have been made against them. They have legal rights and there once was the notion that you are presumed innocent unless the facts dictate otherwise. If you have violated a female supported by an unbiased investigation, you should receive the full consequences for your transgressions.

For someone who has been an oversear of this type of litigation, Yale or any other institution better be on their game or they will be spending endowment money to either party.

My issue with some of the comments previously made are a function of rushing to judgement prior to having facts. It is a disservice to all but a growing trend in this country, unfortunately. These are serious and challenging matters that should be treated accordingly.

 
james 
Freshman
Posts: 83

Age: 44
Reg: 03-18-19
07-03-19 09:11 AM - Post#285545    
    In response to palestra38

My posts are all in reaction to the "final" judgement, all disclosures facts and circumstances to that end... Unless inebriated and without recall, these are my only posts on this subject.

I will tell my daughters of your concern. They hope to go to an Ivy and given their height, play sports. They are talented enough on all fronts.

It is my son I am worried about. The good news (for basketball) is he will likely outgrow me and push 7' according to the hand xrays. the bad news is I dont know if harvard and yale should be his top options like they were for me.

i am now thinking power 5.

 
james 
Freshman
Posts: 83

Age: 44
Reg: 03-18-19
07-03-19 02:38 PM - Post#285564    
    In response to james

https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/07/01/after-...

if you "prejudged" Montague and put him in the proverbial cage Soviet style refusing all the while to review the facts and circumstances of discovery....this frames it all quite well.

what they leave out are the settlement terms. back channel rumblings from the non "Trumpist" sect of the basketball alumni suggest its a healthy sum. these young guys are closer to the source.

i dont have primary info to this end but the qualitative framing puts nice lifetime PV math on value of the yale degree and Captaincy.

That is encouraging for the son of a plumbing contractor from small town TN, but still not fully just.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 22739

Reg: 11-21-04
07-04-19 04:58 AM - Post#285576    
    In response to james

So you choose a blog from a Trumpist to "prove" your point? What's particularly amusing about it is the subcolumn on the right of the page entitled "The Civility Problem." For that is exactly what got Montague expelled. For Montague to shove a paper plate down the shirt of a female classmate and not have enough civility when he was again sober to apologize and foster relationships with classmates rather than "conquests" evidences the same kind of character flaw as the final episode. The kid simply did not know how to relate to women as equals, a characteristic sadly common among the Trumpist set, including its Dear Leader. The reason Yale settled indeed was a potential flaw in its process---but that had nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of Montague himself. That is why, despite a payment of money to Montague, Yale apparently made sure he did not get a Yale degree. And yes, the value of that degree is enormous. So you can call him a winner---it does not appear that there were any winners to me. And again, as I said from the start, the problem was his lack of civility more than anything else.

 
james 
Freshman
Posts: 83

Age: 44
Reg: 03-18-19
07-04-19 08:21 AM - Post#285584    
    In response to palestra38

“Professor”
I posted this article because besides a smattering of updates on your requisite sports sites, it is the most substantive and analytical.

There are a few things we have established. You didn’t got to Yale but love to post about Montague as if he did something to your own daughter though I don’t think you have children yet. I just note this for perspective reasons (my daughters at the very least appreciate your concern for them). You hate Trump and brand anyone who disagrees with you a Trumpist. This appears most visceral for you.
In this thread, we have apparently moved from presumed guilt on sexual assault to punishing him for lack of civility.
I suppose that’s a win for the home team. regardless based on my sources (which are multiple) that was expensive. Yale fought like hell to keep this loss out of case law. They won on that front so what’s say ~$10m when you could’ve pierced the veil of the $30bn endowment and made an entire trubunal (x com) process open fodder? Yes they have good attorneys.

We agree on one thing it appears. You love Dunphy. He recruiting me personally and I do too. I also love this country and “due process” and abhor kangaroo courts and their propensity to prejudge.

Happy 4th.




 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 22739

Reg: 11-21-04
07-04-19 08:31 AM - Post#285585    
    In response to james

Well, same to you. The only thing I'll say is that I certainly did not prejudge Montague except that the record clearly shows that he needed to learn to live with women. (BTW, I am older than you, have 2 grown daughters who, as millenials, both cannot stand Trump precisely because of his views of women). I only stated that I believe his expulsion would almost certainly have been upheld had he been given a full open hearing. I do not believe that he committed criminal sexual assault.


Just as a last thing, no--I didn't go to (nor apply to Yale). I attended Penn and Columbia Law School. I know a thing or two about the law. And this is a topic of interest for all Ivy grads---it has been discussed at length in other board. After all, if other Ivy grads didn't come on this board, who would you talk to?

See you later.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3857

Reg: 02-04-06
07-04-19 01:26 PM - Post#285603    
    In response to palestra38

It is not accurate that the author of the Minding the Campus article on Montague is a “Trumpist.” K.C. Johnson is a left- of-center historian who has been concerned about political correctness, and its anti-liberal impact on campus, for years, long before Trump was even a cloud on the political horizon. He co-authored a book on the Duke lacrosse rape hoax and has been following these issues from before that. So let’s avoid poisoning the well.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1256

Age: 70
Reg: 01-15-16
07-04-19 03:11 PM - Post#285607    
    In response to palestra38

It would not be surprising that Yale's defense team advised their client to settle this matter and I am believe that it was for a significant amount although we will never know as parties to the settlement probably mutually agreed to a non-disclosure clause. If Yale properly followed their own rules and conducted an unbiased investigation, I doubt that they would have settled based on my experience in these matters.

Someone like Montague or any other student deserves due process. There is very much a rush in this country to blow off due process if it does not fit a narrative, including both from the left and right. It is indeed sad to put it mildly. Reminds me of some shenanigans that have gone on over the past year in DC regarding due process.

You can only hope that Yale or any university is thoughtful and fair as to how they handle these matter to protect the rights of all parties, both women and men.

People who rushed to convict Montague or anyone else without due process will ultimately cost a university money. Administrations need to be thoughtful and diligent in performing their responsibilities as well as creating an environment that protects female students. If not, Yale and others will be wasting valuable resources.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 22739

Reg: 11-21-04
07-05-19 08:11 AM - Post#285624    
    In response to bradley

While Yale believed the risk of defending its process warranted a settlement, I wouldn't look at this as any sort of exoneration of Montague's behavior. It does not appear that he will receive a Yale degree (my opinion would change if he does), and there is non-disclosure of the terms. If the focus is on his behavior, as it should be, there was enough evidence to sustain the result that was reached. Hopefully, that message will not be lost.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1256

Age: 70
Reg: 01-15-16
07-05-19 10:19 PM - Post#285656    
    In response to palestra38

The settlement reflects that Yale had an exposure if the case went to trial. The settlement reflects that Yale had issues as to how they handled this matter relative to Montague. The settlement is not about Montague's actions but it says something about Yale's actions.

Montague's reputation has been tarnished for the rest of his life and the settlement only financially compensates him to some degree. There is no admission that Montague did anything wrong but the settlement suggests that Yale did something wrong.

Once again, there are underlying legal tenants in this country including due process and the presumption of innocence. A fair number of people are not fans of these concepts anymore and want to skip over or around them. Let the facts prevail at the end of the day which probably would have occurred if this matter had been tried. Hopefully, Yale and other universities are thoughtful and diligent as to how these matters are handled -- challenging task. Their insurance rates will be determined by their ability to handle these extremely sensitive and challenging matters -- not an easy task but ....

 
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