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Username Post: Jack Montague        (Topic#18754)
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
03-14-16 06:06 PM - Post#204463    
    In response to Quakers03

Montague's lawyer's public statement of course is one-sided. It does make specific factual claims about what it says are "uncontested" facts about the encounters between Montague and the accuser that make the expulsion difficult to rationalize. Unless there are other relevant facts not presented by the attorney, I suspect Yale is going to have problems going forward with this case.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4165

Reg: 11-22-04
03-14-16 07:05 PM - Post#204473    
    In response to SRP

Well, it seems pretty obvious that there are additional facts here. Clearly there was an accusation. Unfortunately with these types of cases most of the evidence is generally going to be the statements of the alleged victim and the accused. We don't know precisely what the uncontested "facts" are, but clearly there is a dispute as to whether an assault occurred. The references to other actions taken by the alleged victim may shed some light on the veracity of the accusation, but they don't actually answer the question of whether an assault occurred.



 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 487

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-14-16 08:02 PM - Post#204487    
    In response to SomeGuy

I watched the Duke Lacrosse 30 for 30 episode for the first time last evening and it was very disturbing. As a parent, it had to be simply a nightmare. Shame on the prosecutor's office, Newsweek, Duke University, etc. People wonder why our institutions, including the media, are losing credibility.

Hopefully, Yale conducted a careful and thorough investigation for their own sake and reputation of the school. Taking time and getting the facts right should always be the marching orders.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4165

Reg: 11-22-04
03-14-16 08:21 PM - Post#204490    
    In response to bradley

Do you only have sons? I find it interesting that you focus on the nightmare of being the parent of the accused in these cases. Remember that the alleged victim is somebody's daughter as well.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 487

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
03-14-16 08:49 PM - Post#204492    
    In response to SomeGuy

I have both. The point is simply that it is indeed a nightmare to the innocent, whether a boy or girl, when the criminal justice system completely fails due to the malfeasance of a prosecutor's office. The prosecutor was rightly disbarred after the NC Attorneys' Office investigated him. The media, including Newsweek, simply jumped to conclusions which ultimately resulted in a belated apology. I hope that you can put yourself in the shoes of those parents and former accused regarding this specific case.

The Montague case will ultimately stand on its merits. There should be no tolerance for him if indeed he raped the student.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4165

Reg: 11-22-04
03-14-16 09:35 PM - Post#204499    
    In response to bradley

Well, admittedly I'm rather judgmental. I don't want to seem callous about the Duke situation, but I don't think it is hard to avoid situations where such an accusation can be made. Of course that doesn't justify a false accusation, nor does it justify prosecutorial failures. But it's not a situation where anyone looks particularly sympathetic to me.



 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3114

Reg: 02-04-06
03-14-16 10:21 PM - Post#204510    
    In response to SomeGuy

Montague's lawyer claims that the alleged victim did not actually lodge a complaint against Montague--that action was taken by some apparatchik over a year after the events in question had occurred. And SomeGuy is displaying what are sometimes called "white knight" tendencies--applying chivalric norms to a post-feminist world where they do not apply (as Montague's lawyer claims occurred with this sort-of "accuser").

 
Bruno 
Masters Student
Posts: 912

Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
03-15-16 01:11 AM - Post#204521    
    In response to SomeGuy

The idea that situations like this are easy to avoid is certainly an old white man's view. This was not Duke Lacrosse. This was a one-on-one with two students who knew each other. Consentual one-on-one contact happens thousands of times a day on campuses, every day. The only way to avoid them would be to avoid one-on-one contact with a partner. I don't know many college kids - athletes or not - who can go four years like that. Or should.

It's an impossible situation, because you very often can't know what really happened, especially if the victim waits a year to share it, making any forensic research impossible. We don't know what happened, and we won't know. But if you're Yale, all you can do is allow a law enforcement process to unfold and do the best it can. And then react based on that. The University wants to protect its students and its reputation, but isn't equipped to adjudicate - in large part because they are far from an independent party.

Jack Montague may very well deserve to go to jail. If he did this, then he does. But because the right process didn't unfold to properly assess the situation - a law enforcement-led process - hIs expulsion was the wrong outcome.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4165

Reg: 11-22-04
03-15-16 07:30 AM - Post#204524    
    In response to Bruno

The avoidance statement is about Duke lacrosse, not Montague. I don't think the situations belong in the same conversation, frankly. It bothers me that, when a situation like this arises, we bring up an instance of a false accusation in a different context.

As for SRP's comments, I personally don't think parsing the alleged victim's reaction and how the allegation got into the process is at all dispositive -- if an assault occurred, I don't think there is a "right" reaction that can tell you whether or not the allegation is true. Admittedly, I'm sure there are all kinds of confirmation biases at play here for me -- I've known a victim in one of these types of cases, and I've never known someone who has been accused. So I naturally see the system and its frustrations from the alleged victim's side. That doesn't mean all victims are actually right, but I do lean that way, and I believe this is an issue where the system should lean that way as well.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Masters Student
Posts: 816

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Jack Montague
03-15-16 10:27 AM - Post#204535    
    In response to SomeGuy

Interesting reading. An article by Patrick Witt, former Yale QB 'informally accused' of a sexual offense under Yale's procedures.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/11/03/se x...

Witt mentions that Harvard adopted similar rules more recently, leading to public objection by 28 Harvard Law Professors:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/14/re t...

The concerns seem to center on the possibility for a student to be punished - even expelled - after an informal process that lacks "fairness" and "due process." (words used by the Harvard Law Professors)

I don't know if Witt was exonerated, or if he sued Yale. Watching the Duke Lacrosse ESPN documentary last night - Fantastic Lies - it was clear that without due process and legal representation, the three students accused in that case would have been formally charged and expelled by Yale or Harvard. Only because criminal charges were brought did due process allow the attorneys for those players the opportunity to see and question the evidence, leading to the exoneration of the players, disbarment and jail time (one day) for the prosecutor, and a retraction from the "victim."

Weighed against the incontrovertible goal of eliminating sexual harrassment and offenses, these are extremely complicated issues.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-15-16 10:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 787
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Jack Montague
03-15-16 01:02 PM - Post#204555    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:
As a parent, it had to be simply a nightmare.


I know one of the parents, it was. And they had to spend several hundred thousand in fees long before any settlement was in the picture. I know that justice is the objective, but we should be able to rely on public officials exercising reasonable judgment before making people incur such burdens.


 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 487

Age: 68
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Jack Montague
06-10-16 03:53 PM - Post#207559    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Montague has initiated a lawsuit against Yale. Hopefully, at the end of the day, truth and justice will prevail; no matter what the outcome.

 
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