SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4921
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-14-16 06:06 PM - Post#204463
In response to Quakers03
Montague's lawyer's public statement of course is one-sided. It does make specific factual claims about what it says are "uncontested" facts about the encounters between Montague and the accuser that make the expulsion difficult to rationalize. Unless there are other relevant facts not presented by the attorney, I suspect Yale is going to have problems going forward with this case.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-14-16 07:05 PM - Post#204473
In response to SRP
Well, it seems pretty obvious that there are additional facts here. Clearly there was an accusation. Unfortunately with these types of cases most of the evidence is generally going to be the statements of the alleged victim and the accused. We don't know precisely what the uncontested "facts" are, but clearly there is a dispute as to whether an assault occurred. The references to other actions taken by the alleged victim may shed some light on the veracity of the accusation, but they don't actually answer the question of whether an assault occurred.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 75
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-14-16 08:02 PM - Post#204487
In response to SomeGuy
I watched the Duke Lacrosse 30 for 30 episode for the first time last evening and it was very disturbing. As a parent, it had to be simply a nightmare. Shame on the prosecutor's office, Newsweek, Duke University, etc. People wonder why our institutions, including the media, are losing credibility.
Hopefully, Yale conducted a careful and thorough investigation for their own sake and reputation of the school. Taking time and getting the facts right should always be the marching orders.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-14-16 08:21 PM - Post#204490
In response to bradley
Do you only have sons? I find it interesting that you focus on the nightmare of being the parent of the accused in these cases. Remember that the alleged victim is somebody's daughter as well.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 75
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-14-16 08:49 PM - Post#204492
In response to SomeGuy
I have both. The point is simply that it is indeed a nightmare to the innocent, whether a boy or girl, when the criminal justice system completely fails due to the malfeasance of a prosecutor's office. The prosecutor was rightly disbarred after the NC Attorneys' Office investigated him. The media, including Newsweek, simply jumped to conclusions which ultimately resulted in a belated apology. I hope that you can put yourself in the shoes of those parents and former accused regarding this specific case.
The Montague case will ultimately stand on its merits. There should be no tolerance for him if indeed he raped the student.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-14-16 09:35 PM - Post#204499
In response to bradley
Well, admittedly I'm rather judgmental. I don't want to seem callous about the Duke situation, but I don't think it is hard to avoid situations where such an accusation can be made. Of course that doesn't justify a false accusation, nor does it justify prosecutorial failures. But it's not a situation where anyone looks particularly sympathetic to me.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4921
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-14-16 10:21 PM - Post#204510
In response to SomeGuy
Montague's lawyer claims that the alleged victim did not actually lodge a complaint against Montague--that action was taken by some apparatchik over a year after the events in question had occurred. And SomeGuy is displaying what are sometimes called "white knight" tendencies--applying chivalric norms to a post-feminist world where they do not apply (as Montague's lawyer claims occurred with this sort-of "accuser").
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1423
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-16 01:11 AM - Post#204521
In response to SomeGuy
The idea that situations like this are easy to avoid is certainly an old white man's view. This was not Duke Lacrosse. This was a one-on-one with two students who knew each other. Consentual one-on-one contact happens thousands of times a day on campuses, every day. The only way to avoid them would be to avoid one-on-one contact with a partner. I don't know many college kids - athletes or not - who can go four years like that. Or should.
It's an impossible situation, because you very often can't know what really happened, especially if the victim waits a year to share it, making any forensic research impossible. We don't know what happened, and we won't know. But if you're Yale, all you can do is allow a law enforcement process to unfold and do the best it can. And then react based on that. The University wants to protect its students and its reputation, but isn't equipped to adjudicate - in large part because they are far from an independent party.
Jack Montague may very well deserve to go to jail. If he did this, then he does. But because the right process didn't unfold to properly assess the situation - a law enforcement-led process - hIs expulsion was the wrong outcome.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-15-16 07:30 AM - Post#204524
In response to Bruno
The avoidance statement is about Duke lacrosse, not Montague. I don't think the situations belong in the same conversation, frankly. It bothers me that, when a situation like this arises, we bring up an instance of a false accusation in a different context.
As for SRP's comments, I personally don't think parsing the alleged victim's reaction and how the allegation got into the process is at all dispositive -- if an assault occurred, I don't think there is a "right" reaction that can tell you whether or not the allegation is true. Admittedly, I'm sure there are all kinds of confirmation biases at play here for me -- I've known a victim in one of these types of cases, and I've never known someone who has been accused. So I naturally see the system and its frustrations from the alleged victim's side. That doesn't mean all victims are actually right, but I do lean that way, and I believe this is an issue where the system should lean that way as well.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Jack Montague 03-15-16 10:27 AM - Post#204535
In response to SomeGuy
Interesting reading. An article by Patrick Witt, former Yale QB 'informally accused' of a sexual offense under Yale's procedures.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/11/03/se x...
Witt mentions that Harvard adopted similar rules more recently, leading to public objection by 28 Harvard Law Professors:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/14/re t...
The concerns seem to center on the possibility for a student to be punished - even expelled - after an informal process that lacks "fairness" and "due process." (words used by the Harvard Law Professors)
I don't know if Witt was exonerated, or if he sued Yale. Watching the Duke Lacrosse ESPN documentary last night - Fantastic Lies - it was clear that without due process and legal representation, the three students accused in that case would have been formally charged and expelled by Yale or Harvard. Only because criminal charges were brought did due process allow the attorneys for those players the opportunity to see and question the evidence, leading to the exoneration of the players, disbarment and jail time (one day) for the prosecutor, and a retraction from the "victim."
Weighed against the incontrovertible goal of eliminating sexual harrassment and offenses, these are extremely complicated issues.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-15-16 10:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1352
Reg: 12-08-04
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Jack Montague 03-15-16 01:02 PM - Post#204555
In response to bradley
As a parent, it had to be simply a nightmare.
I know one of the parents, it was. And they had to spend several hundred thousand in fees long before any settlement was in the picture. I know that justice is the objective, but we should be able to rely on public officials exercising reasonable judgment before making people incur such burdens.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 75
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Jack Montague 06-10-16 03:53 PM - Post#207559
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Montague has initiated a lawsuit against Yale. Hopefully, at the end of the day, truth and justice will prevail; no matter what the outcome.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
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04-01-19 03:25 PM - Post#283155
In response to bradley
An update on Montague's case against Yale.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story/...
- A federal judge has ruled that a former Yale basketball captain who was expelled for sexual misconduct can move forward with his lawsuit against the university.
Judge Alfred Covello, in a ruling released Monday, denied Yale's motion to throw out many of Jack Montague's claims, including that a Title IX officer improperly coerced the woman to cooperate with the complaint that led to his February 2016 expulsion.
The judge did toss out several of Montague's arguments, including that the school's actions were the result of a bias against him as a man. -
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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Jack Montague 04-01-19 05:18 PM - Post#283161
In response to rbg
For those who want the legal details, here is a link to the full opinion of the judge.
The opinion is 65 pages. The history of the case can be found on the first 18 pages. The portion of the opinion where Montague is allowed to go to trial on some of his claims pertaining to unfair procedures at Yale begins on page 27 and continues to page 49. Montague loses on his gender discrimination claim beginning on page 49.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-28-19 12:53 AM - Post#285435
In response to Stuart Suss
Jack Montague and Yale have reached a settlement of the case. The terms of the settlement have not been released and the various news articles have no information.
Montague's attorney is quoted as saying, “The parties have resolved the case to their mutual satisfaction.â€
All that appears in the public record is a "Stipulation of Voluntary Dismissal" which states: Pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. P. 41, the plaintiff and defendants hereby stipulate that this case may be dismissed with prejudice, each side to bear its own costs and fees.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1173
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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06-28-19 09:36 AM - Post#285437
In response to Stuart Suss
Stu, what does "dismissed with prejudice" mean?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32913
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-28-19 09:40 AM - Post#285439
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
It means it cannot be re-filed. The case is over...for good. And that is what happens when there is a settlement of a case. So far, no information is being released by anyone as to the terms, but given that it happened after the Judge ruled that Montague's case would go to trial, you have to assume that there was a fairly substantial payment by Yale.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2215
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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06-28-19 12:11 PM - Post#285445
In response to palestra38
It is noted here that the settlement has occurred just after a decision was handed down by the Sixth Circuit that implies that any school accepting federal funds has to follow due process under Title IX, not just public schools. Yale obviously decided to cut their losses while the cutting was good. Hopefully the settlement includes granting him a degree.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3783
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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06-30-19 09:33 AM - Post#285466
In response to dperry
Hopefully the settlement includes granting him a degree.
I was wondering about that as well. Presumably we'll get an answer soon enough--a quick check of Montague's LinkedIn profile will tell us.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-30-19 06:20 PM - Post#285473
In response to Silver Maple
Montague initially sought emergency injunctive relief which would have compelled Yale to readmit him. That request was denied. After that ruling Montague, over some student protest, was admitted to Belmont University's Adult Degree program in his hometown of Nashville.
The Nashville Post has reported that Montague obtained his undergraduate degree from Belmont.
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