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Username Post: Harvard II        (Topic#18781)
Tiger69 
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Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
02-28-16 01:07 PM - Post#202949    

What do we do with Zena?

Even with its losses, harvard is the League underachiever this season. We should be concerned about Cantabs putting it all together for one big payback to us for Doug Davis.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Harvard II
02-29-16 10:48 AM - Post#202993    
    In response to Tiger69

We should be concerned because one never knows what will happen on the road plus I am sure that Harvard will play with pride.

The one match up that will be interesting to watch is the Miller/Brennan vs. Edosomwan. It appears that Edosomwan is slumping but he is an unusual player for the Ivies based on his inside game and he will be playing next year. Miller has improved dramatically as a defender and if he can play Zena one on one with some minor assistance, it will help the Tigers on Friday night. Miller has a slight height advantage and a big wing span as does Brennan.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Harvard II
02-29-16 01:39 PM - Post#203004    
    In response to bradley

Brennan seems to be improving. But, he still appears to be out of position to rebound on offense which leads to reach in fouls. He needs to beef up in the off season so he can establish position and not be pushed around so easily.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Harvard II
02-29-16 03:00 PM - Post#203014    
    In response to Tiger69

At the very least, it appears that playing long stretches without anyone over 6'5 on the floor (as Princeton did last weekend) is not a good strategy.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Harvard II
02-29-16 04:15 PM - Post#203023    
    In response to SomeGuy

Nonsense. Throwing in the small line up has given the Tigers the spark they've needed to sustain their winning streak. Princeton can put 5 guys on the floor together that can all shoot the 3 and drive to be hoop. They are also excellent defenders with long reach that defies their height. At 6'5", Myles Stephens is one of the best defenders on he team if not the league. Harvard's guards throw the ball all over the gym so pressuring them with speed and quickness may be a better strategy to stopping Zena than combatting him directly with size.

Edited by TigerFan on 02-29-16 04:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
Re: Harvard II
02-29-16 06:21 PM - Post#203033    
    In response to SomeGuy

How can you conclude that it "does not appear to be good strategy?" If Princeton continues to shoot the way they have in this home stretch they will be successful. Hard to do that on the road, as happened at Columbia, Yale and Penn. But this team finds a way to win somehow.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
02-29-16 08:05 PM - Post#203041    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Pressuring ball-handlers and crowding the passing lanes is still the first defensive task when playing Harvard. Except for Okolie, PU's perimeter players are bigger and more athletic and Harvard's guys are not that adept at dribbling under pressure. But the Crimson perimeter can be deadly if allowed to shoot standstill treys, which also suggests coming out on them. Depending on the officiating, I'd let Miller try to play Edosomwan one-on-one (with opportunistic digs down by helpers if Edosomwan catches it far from the hoop or if his head is turned). A fast game up and down the floor is not to be feared in this matchup.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
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Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Harvard II
02-29-16 09:27 PM - Post#203047    
    In response to TigerFan

Prediction: Miller/Brennan play at least 25-30 minutes per game for the remaining three games against legitimate centers ---Edosomwan, Bourdeaux and Nelson-Henry. Henderson may go small when they are not on the floor, particularly Penn, or if the Tigers need to come from behind. Unrealistic to play Stephens and others against these three bigs for any extended time period in my opinion.

Henderson has been good in using Miller against Brown C, Sears and the above centers and going small when he can. It would be great if Miller/Brennan can improve their offensive skills next year which would be a major weapon.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Harvard II
03-01-16 10:22 AM - Post#203064    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Even with its losses, harvard is the League underachiever this season. We should be concerned about Cantabs putting it all together for one big payback to us for Doug Davis.



Stating the obvious, it ain't over til it's over.

Really, really, over.

Don't celebrate before the buzzer

 
Kit 
Senior
Posts: 380

Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
Re: Harvard II
03-01-16 06:03 PM - Post#203089    
    In response to sparman

I expect Princeton to win against Harvard. Yale won at Lavietes, so can we. Just focus, play disciplined basketball and all will be fine.


 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-01-16 07:37 PM - Post#203094    
    In response to Kit

Gonna depend on who plays for Harvard, more than anything. Could be Princeton's toughest remaining game if the Crimson is at full strength, but probably Dartmouth is toughest if Harvard is still missing TMac or Z can't go at full speed.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3988

Reg: 11-23-04
03-01-16 09:15 PM - Post#203101    
    In response to mrjames

Okolie is one of the best defenders in the league. Tommy put him on Blackmon. It will be interesting to see how he uses him on Fri.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-01-16 10:51 PM - Post#203112    
    In response to Old Bear

The good news for the Tigers is that one defensive stopper can't contain their offense. The scoring bar graph morphs from game to game like the display on a stereo.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Harvard II
03-02-16 08:40 AM - Post#203128    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Sorry I wasn't clear about my thought there. I think the strategy is fine against Cornell and Columbia, who play small and don't have centers who use their size much on offense. I've thought the strategy has worked great in those match ups.

However, I don't think you can guard either Edosomwan or DNH with a 6'5 guy for more than a possession or two, if that. We'll see who turns out to be right on this, but I predict you won't see the small lineup at all while those centers are on the floor.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
03-02-16 11:19 AM - Post#203146    
    In response to SomeGuy

KenPom rates H as the toughest game for Tigers, giving them a 29% chance to win, while giving Dartmouth 24% and Penn 6%. Henderson uses tactics according to what he needs at the moment and his personnel enables him to do it. Lately he's been very comfortable concentrating on the perimeter trading 2's for our 3's. If we are shooting well it works like a charm. Columbia tried a lot more shots that the Tigers and made as many, most of them in the paint. I doubt that Henderson will be reluctant to put Zena on the line and he can find plenty of fouls to give.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
03-02-16 02:28 PM - Post#203160    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I think that one of these games is going to be very challenging -- logic and history would suggest Harvard although Dartmouth obviously gave Yale a big time scare on the road.

One would hope that they play loose and confident and yet be focused at the task at hand but anything can and will happen at the end of the Ivy season.

Nice to see Weisz share co-player of the week with Makai Mason. He has obviously become the leader of the team. One of these days, he may be coaching at Princeton like Coach Henderson's career.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 486

Age: 49
Reg: 08-28-12
03-03-16 05:08 PM - Post#203242    
    In response to bradley

Dartmouth matches up much better with Yale than they do with Princeton. Fingers crossed for some senior night magic vs the Tigers though!

 
Kit 
Senior
Posts: 380

Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
03-03-16 05:26 PM - Post#203244    
    In response to hoopla

Why can't you guys be satisfied in beating the Quakers? Isn't that enough?

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 486

Age: 49
Reg: 08-28-12
03-04-16 12:37 AM - Post#203300    
    In response to Kit

Because we're hungry, Kit

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
03-04-16 05:24 PM - Post#203360    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

6 1/2 point spread this evening at Cambridge with a preliminary line of 7 1/2 pts tomorrow evening at Hanover. Which game will be more challenging -- Lord knows. A major factor may be if Edosomwan comes to play. Okolie is always going to provide very good defense and will be interesting who they put Okolie on - Caruso?? Cook has become more and more of a lockdown defender and it will be interesting who they put him on --- Johnson??

Should be an interesting game.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 08:18 PM - Post#203375    
    In response to bradley

Harvard scoring at will to start, getting inside pretty easily. Weisz with two big treys to keep it close with 12:40 left in the first half.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 08:31 PM - Post#203377    
    In response to SRP

Down 5 with 7:57 left in the half. I get keeping them off the arc, but they may be overdoing it a bit, as Harvard is getting a ton of easy drives to the rim. Cannady looking sharp, Weisz very active offensively, Cook playing hard.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 08:41 PM - Post#203378    
    In response to SRP

Patented late-first-half surge begins, PU within two with about four minutes left. Amaker takes a TO. Cook with a spectacular block and save from out of bounds.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 08:47 PM - Post#203382    
    In response to SRP

Harvard gets six straight after the timeout and PU still looks sloppy turning the ball over and committing fouls. The Tiger defensive pressure at the arc is not only letting in drives but ORs. Harvard snagging nearly half their misses and they're shooting over 55%. The defensive efficiency stats for this half will be dire.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 08:52 PM - Post#203385    
    In response to SRP

Steeves hits a trey with two guys on him at the end of the half. PU down 35-43. This is serious--championship could be lost unless a substantial comeback is mounted.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
03-04-16 08:58 PM - Post#203387    
    In response to SRP

Down 8 at half. Harvard playing well at both ends. Game is troubling. We can't get a run going. Cannady did one out of control drive and picked up an offensive foul.

Mitch has to come up with something special at halftime. Harvard won't give this game away. How does Harvard have such a crappy record?

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 09:04 PM - Post#203388    
    In response to Tiger69

There is no excuse for having one more TO than this Harvard group, even though their guards have improved some. If there's not going to be interior help in the interest of stopping the three, then perimeter defenders have to stay in front of their men and charge in hard for DRs after misses. Harvard has 7 ORs on 14 misses, which is unacceptable. Even if PU were shooting 6-9 instead of 3-9 from three they'd still only be up by one. Fortunately, the Tigers drew a lot of shooting fouls and knocked in 10-12 FTs.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 09:25 PM - Post#203391    
    In response to SRP

Nice 13-5 run, forcing TOs from the Crimson and getting rebounds, but a ton of misses on shots usually made leaves Harvard still up two with 11:08 left. Princeton will probably be shooting a lot of fouls down the stretch because the Crimson are hacking a lot.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 09:41 PM - Post#203397    
    In response to SRP

Terrible defensive mistake leaving red-hot Steeves alone at the arc, followed by two horrible officals' calls that hurt Princeton.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 09:46 PM - Post#203399    
    In response to SRP

Brutal sequence of Bell missing two FTs, then missing about four tip-ins after the OR, then Stephens misses one of two, then Cook gets called for a bogus charge (even the announcers were bewildered).

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 09:48 PM - Post#203401    
    In response to SRP

Harvard up 3 with 3:31 left, Okolie going to the FT line for one-and-one. Crimson's primary ballhandlers have both fouled out. My stomach is twisted but my brain says that Princeton ought to be able to win this. Only bad sign is that Cannady's magic is not working this game.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 09:56 PM - Post#203404    
    In response to SRP

PU down one with 2:23 left after Stephens' dunk off a Cook missed trey. Harvard travels again but not called, Edosomwan draws OR foul and makes one of two.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 10:01 PM - Post#203406    
    In response to SRP

Big trey by Cook but then horrible rebounding gives Harvard a second chance and Edosomwan with the three-point play. Cannady drives for a layup, then a phantom foul on Cook puts Steeves on the line. He hits two, PU down two with 7.2 seconds left.

 
puband09 
Masters Student
Posts: 782

Reg: 12-19-09
03-04-16 10:02 PM - Post#203408    
    In response to SRP

Wow...

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-04-16 10:03 PM - Post#203409    
    In response to SRP

Several good looks at the end, but it doesn't go in. Of course, the refs swallow their whistles in the melee this time. We need Columbia now to get PU to a playoff opportunity.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
03-04-16 10:04 PM - Post#203410    
    In response to puband09

Go Columbia.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2260
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
03-04-16 10:06 PM - Post#203412    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
phantom foul on Cook



Would have been nice to see a replay.


 
gokinsmen 
Postdoc
Posts: 3634

Reg: 02-06-10
Harvard II
03-04-16 10:08 PM - Post#203415    
    In response to sparman

We find new ways to embarrass ourselves every season. Harvard came to play; our guys did not. They just messed around casually expecting Harvard to quit. Same old story. Unfortunately, there was no Cannady magic to steal the game.

MH simply doesn't have it as a motivator. Forget Columbia. I highly doubt Yale is as lazy as we always are. Even if they somehow lose tomorrow, I expect MH's squad to drop one or both of the next two games.

Really pathetic. Don't know if this program will ever win another title in our lifetimes. MH isn't a head coach to me. He's a great assistant, an Xs-and-Os guy, an ace recruiter. Head coach? Don't see any sign of that.

 
hoopla 
Masters Student
Posts: 486

Age: 49
Reg: 08-28-12
03-04-16 10:26 PM - Post#203419    
    In response to gokinsmen

A rare loss, but on the road vs a team with some serious players... And MH has the Princeton program in impressive shape. This team is unbelievable and next year flat out scary. MH seems to me one of the brightest young rising stars out there.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
03-04-16 10:31 PM - Post#203422    
    In response to SRP

Very tough loss but not surprising that Harvard would give it their all. Tigers are going to need good fortune and luck to get to a playoff. Yale's victory against Dartmouth last Saturday was crucial and it was not surprising that they would ambush Cornell tonight. They will play with fire against Columbia tomorrow night but it should be a battle. Tigers need to regroup against Dartmouth and I think they will.

Unfortunately, they may well be heading to the NIT but you never know in this crazy league.

 
umbrellaman 
Masters Student
Posts: 469
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
03-05-16 01:16 AM - Post#203438    
    In response to bradley

Ugh. Away for work, and just checked in. To be certain, while it feels a bit like the final weekend in Hummer's senior year, you had to see this coming. Yale has been dispatching it's road games with greater ease. Columbia and Penn were lucky wins and not the ordinary kind of lucky either. Well, now we need Columbia to win and then win 3 more.

Hummer's senior year we has one real guard that got regular minutes and this year we have one real big that got regular minutes.

 
whitakk 
Masters Student
Posts: 523

Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
03-05-16 01:29 AM - Post#203440    
    In response to umbrellaman

Yale-Columbia should be roughly a toss-up, so it's not over if Princeton takes care of business. But yeah, this was dispiriting. Players were very crushed on the court after the buzzer.

http://www.nycbuckets.com/2016/03/harvard-73-pr inc...

 
internetter 
Postdoc
Posts: 3399

Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
03-05-16 02:22 AM - Post#203441    
    In response to bradley

Tough loss at H. Now Tiger followers have to be Lion fans.
Strange turnabout after what happened at Levien.
west coast fan


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-05-16 02:30 AM - Post#203442    
    In response to internetter

PU could have won if they had held Harvard to a reasonable two-point shooting percentage OR if they had gotten a decent share of the rebounds and loose balls OR if they had hit a normal percentage of treys. Pretty hard to win if you miss on all three of those; the second one is the most frustrating to me because it looks correctable with effort rather than technique. The officiating worked against the Tigers, but only slightly, well within what a championship team should be prepared to deal with on the road.

This game looked like an upset by eye, with PU's offense being more fluid and their superior wing athleticism showing up regularly, but Harvard playing with fire and Steeves having an out-of-body career night on his last home game (I feel good for him, given his travails up to now). Tip of the hat to the Crimson for salvaging some pride at the end of a tough season.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
03-05-16 08:02 AM - Post#203448    
    In response to SRP

First game I haven't seen or watched on the Internet machine in months. Caught the first 8 minutes or so in the car riding over to my son's musical and had a bad feeling. Popped up ESPN Gametracker at intermission just in time to "watch" the three that put Tigers up one late in the game. Nothing more frustrating than "watching" your team lose a close one that way.

This seemed to say it all: “We sat back a little too much in the beginning of the game, and let them get out and feel comfortable,” Earl said. “We went into halftime and said, the games where we’ve been down, we’ve been aggressive defensively and pressured up. We’re going to make shots, and we did … we just couldn’t keep pushing through. We had to sustain it, and we just let it trail off.” Wasn't that the story of the game at Yale too?

(The musical was fantastic and I am gladly missing tonight's games to watch it again. Root hard Tiger fans!)

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
03-05-16 08:15 AM - Post#203450    
    In response to SRP

Very tough call on Cook with 7 seconds to go but at the end of the day, but it is the Tigers play that resulted in the loss not the refs. Stephens would have tied the score if he did not bobble the ball near the rim and Cook's put back barely rolled around the rim but that stuff happens when you fall behind 8 pts at half time.

Harvard's height and reach was an issue and the Tigers miss Brase going against bigger teams. Miller and Brennan need to get stronger and bigger for net year combined with Brase on the boards. Going small is good offensively but defense/rebounds are critical.

Will the Princeton juniors be driven by this experience for next year's play like it appears that Sears and crew were driven this year? Finishing 12-2 and 22-6 is pretty impressive and would have been good enough to win or tie most years. I am proud of the job done by the coaching staff and team.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
03-05-16 09:55 AM - Post#203457    
    In response to internetter

Lions have the motivation of possible post-season play, plus the emotion from a final home crowd.

Whether that will be enough, we will see.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
03-05-16 10:25 AM - Post#203458    
    In response to bradley

Everyone has done a superlative job, including the coaching staff. Mitch has a very strong case for COY. For this team to succeed it MUST make a high % of 3's, as it always does at home and often on the road. Trading 2's for 3's is fine, if you make the shots. Last night we did not and we paid the price. A chance to go 12-2 without your starting C/F is really a job well done. Go Tigers!

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2260
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
03-05-16 12:27 PM - Post#203463    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

Heartbreaking loss from a fan's point of view, but great competetive game to watch.

Amaker had a great defensive plan: tightly guard the three point line early, then collapse all hands into the lane on the drive, then run at the three again if there was a kick-out.

Miller of course could do little one on one against a much stronger and wider defender, which enabled the Amaker plan to work. Columbia could not make it work without a wide athletic body in the post.

Weisz and Caruso could do little in the lane with all the collapsing hands.

Cook and Stephens had a little more success going to the hoop. Bell & Cannady especially were able to slice to the rim through the seams on occasion.

This is the first league game that I really missed Brase; his ability to shoot the 3 might have been the missing component to break down Harvard's defensive plan.

Go Yale!



 
Coloradotiger 
Freshman
Posts: 31

Age: 56
Reg: 11-21-13
03-05-16 12:36 PM - Post#203464    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

  • 1LotteryPick1969 Said:


Go Yale!





Go Yale???? I presume you meant to type "Go Columbia!"!

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2260
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
03-05-16 01:07 PM - Post#203469    
    In response to Coloradotiger

Cheez!

That's what happens when one posts while ill.

I meant of course Go Columbia.


 
Albert08 
Masters Student
Posts: 570

Reg: 08-21-10
03-05-16 01:45 PM - Post#203474    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

I am not sure the strategy that worked well against Columbia (stop the 3, give up the layup) was right for Harvard; its 3 point shooters are not as dangerous as Columbia's. The 9:47 division in shots seems like too much, especially with Zena, Okolie etc. as the beneficiaries. It will be interesting to see how they defend against Dartmouth in what is the next "must win" game.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2801

Reg: 11-23-04
03-05-16 04:54 PM - Post#203486    
    In response to Albert08

I assume that Gokinsmen was still upset when he posted. Although disappointed by the result, I can't fault either MH or the players. Both teams played hard and wanted this game badly. Sleeves had a career night and his perfect shot just before halftime was a killer. We shouldn't get into a whining fit about the refs like some others. They were human and not as bad as some we've seen. Just a heartbreaker of a loss as attributable to harvard's spirited play as our own misplays. But, the season is not over. Regardless, of what happens in NYC tonight, the Tigers need to shake it off and win out. If we are lucky we get a reprieve. If not, we prepare for a different postseason.

GO LIONS AND TIGERS!

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
03-05-16 08:03 PM - Post#203497    
    In response to Coloradotiger

That's OK, it wasn't in vain.

"Go Yale" works for me just fine.



 
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