Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2801
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-28-16 01:09 PM - Post#202950
Superstition alert: avoiding the Yale pitfall.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-28-16 03:44 PM - Post#202956
In response to Tiger69
Glad to see I'm not the only Nervous Nellie. Dartmouth can be vexing at home. But there really would be little excuse for not beating them.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32687
Reg: 11-21-04
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Dartmouth II 02-28-16 08:22 PM - Post#202974
In response to SRP
Ira Bowman---1996. Missed foul shot with game on the line--Penn loses at Dartmouth, ties Princeton (which it beat twice) and then loses in OT in the playoff at Lehigh.
So it can happen. But I don't expect this Princeton team to lose---that Penn team had lost its entire starting team before that season. This Princeton team appears to be peaking. Just too bad that the final game is at Princeton and not at Penn.
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westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts: 196
Age: 43
Reg: 01-08-11
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Re: Dartmouth II 02-28-16 08:35 PM - Post#202976
In response to palestra38
You don't have to go back 20 years. How about March 7, 2015: Dartmouth 59 - Yale 58, one night after Yale 62 - Harvard 52 in Cambridge.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2801
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-28-16 09:58 PM - Post#202981
In response to westphillywarrior
Sounds crazy, I know. But, when the fans are taking games for granted, it's a sign that the team might also be doing so. On these Ivy weekends you really have to focus on each game before anything else. Trite, but true.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3988
Reg: 11-23-04
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Dartmouth II 03-01-16 08:58 PM - Post#203100
In response to Tiger69
Trite maybe be better than Trump (unless they are the same).
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 08:08 PM - Post#203500
In response to Old Bear
We Nervous Nellies were unfortunately vindicated last night. Hope the Tigers make us look bad tonight.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 08:16 PM - Post#203503
In response to SRP
Cannady an instant bolt of energy off the bench, forces a turnover then drives baseline and hits Weisz for an open three. PU trying to D up Dartmouth with tight man-to-man. No Boudreaux for the Big Green tonight.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 08:21 PM - Post#203506
In response to SRP
Nice 19-9 lead early on with eight players having scored, including Rayner. Dartmouth struggling to hold onto the ball but hitting the glass pretty hard.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-05-16 08:24 PM - Post#203507
In response to SRP
Yale 17 Columbia 3
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 08:54 PM - Post#203521
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Up 44-23 at the half, Cook going crazy from three and making steals on the other end.
Columbia within 8 with about three minutes left in the first half.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-05-16 09:19 PM - Post#203527
In response to SRP
What's wrong w Boudreax? Why couldn't he have taken last night off?
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-05-16 09:33 PM - Post#203532
In response to PennFan10
Yale 50 Columbia 45 with 9:15 left!
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3634
Reg: 02-06-10
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Dartmouth II 03-05-16 09:58 PM - Post#203538
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
It was silly to expect Yale to choke like we did. Congrats to the Bulldogs. They may not be the "better" team, but they're tougher and more deserving. They come to play every game from the opening tip -- something our guys don't do.
For the record, I would have been okay with losing to Yale in a playoff. I could even be happy to see them make a tourney after decades of futility. But to lose, yet again, by choking to a sub-200 team is embarrassing and damaging to the program.
I wonder what the excuse will be next season when Harvard inevitably edges us for the title.
MH needs to deliver a title AND an NCAA win next season or I'm 100% in favor of a coaching change. He's a great basketball mind, but coaching isn't just Xs-and-Os. It's also motivation. And at some point, you run out of excuses as to why you keep choking every single year.
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puband09
Masters Student
Posts: 782
Reg: 12-19-09
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:08 PM - Post#203540
In response to gokinsmen
MH needs to deliver a title AND an NCAA win next season or I'm 100% in favor of a coaching change. He's a great basketball mind, but coaching isn't just Xs-and-Os. It's also motivation. And at some point, you run out of excuses as to why you keep choking every single year.
The fact that this seasoned tiger team couldn't put away that Harvard squad when they were in a "down" year—and not exactly playing the game of their lives either—does not make me optimistic for next year. Princeton will look slightly better, but Harvard is poised to look significantly better.
I think the tigers will be a 12-2 team again next year, but might not have the pieces to be champions.
Edited by puband09 on 03-05-16 10:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 10:09 PM - Post#203541
In response to gokinsmen
That's just silly. Late-season upsets happen all the time; Bill Carmody and Holy Cross just knocked off top-seed Bucknell in their conference tourney and a number of other one-seeds have also gone down early. Should James Jones have been fired because Yale kept "choking" year after year, coming close but never breaking through until now?
Yale played excellent defense all season, game to game and possession to possession, and Princeton did not. Some of that may be coaching but a lot of it is having a freak athlete at the back like Justin Sears who can cut off drives, block shots, and come out to the perimeter to shut down jump shooters.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3634
Reg: 02-06-10
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Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:10 PM - Post#203542
In response to puband09
The fact that this seasoned tiger team couldn't put away that Harvard squad when they were in a "down" year—and not exactly playing the game of their lives either—does not make me optimistic for next year.
I agree. That's why I'm personally in favor of a coaching change this year. But I know that's not going to happen, so I won't forgive this latest horrible choke job unless MH delivers something TRULY special next season -- however unlikely that is.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 469
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:10 PM - Post#203543
In response to gokinsmen
It's tough, but you must admit that Yale was the better team. Now their road wins were much easier - they may have gotten Zena coming off an injury and Columbia after being eliminated, but their body of work has been better. The Penn and Columbia games were very lucky - when you factor in the Yale and Harvard losses, they only played well against the bottom three of Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth.
I hope next year, Brase will return like Sherrod did and add the piece that they needed. You can only get away with the smoke and mirrors of the undersized lineup for so long.
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puband09
Masters Student
Posts: 782
Reg: 12-19-09
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:13 PM - Post#203544
In response to umbrellaman
It's tough, but you must admit that Yale was the better team.
There's less substance to this analysis with Montague out of the picture.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3634
Reg: 02-06-10
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03-05-16 10:13 PM - Post#203545
In response to SRP
So much excuse making. We didn't lose to Yale. We lost to a sub-200 Harvard team that was playing out a string of meaningless games.
Like I said, if we lost to Yale in a playoff, that would be fine. But to lose like this, another choke job, is a serious red flag.
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thelaird
Freshman
Posts: 33
Age: 66
Reg: 12-08-15
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:18 PM - Post#203547
In response to puband09
I take that a lot of the negativity is coming from the frustration on being " so close but no cigar". If the Tigers beat Penn ( just saying) they became within a rim roll of a share of the Ivy title.
Back in November, I don't think that anyone would have believed that if the Tigers lost just 2 Ivy games that they wouldn't be champs.
I salute the kids this year and the coaching staff. Hopefully it's on to a long NIT run.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-05-16 10:19 PM - Post#203548
In response to gokinsmen
Give us Justin Sears and we are the Ivy champs.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:22 PM - Post#203549
In response to thelaird
Oh please. You can thank the refs for gifting Princeton the victory at the Palestra, where they were thoroughly outplayed. And a narrow escape at Columbia, to say the least.
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thelaird
Freshman
Posts: 33
Age: 66
Reg: 12-08-15
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03-05-16 10:23 PM - Post#203550
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Plus, we got to see probably one of the all-time great games in Princeton history with Columbia. A truly season to remember.
On another note, Yale will probably not get a 12 seed like I've seen Princeton would have gotten. What seed do you think they deserve?
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puband09
Masters Student
Posts: 782
Reg: 12-19-09
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:26 PM - Post#203551
In response to penn nation
I didn't follow all 14 of Yale's games with a magnifying glass, but they very nearly lost to Dartmouth last weekend—a team we handled both times.
Winning 14 games (or near it) is very hard; I don't think gokinsmen is arguing that. It always seems like the difference between a good team and a championship team are whether or not they can put away the opponents who stick around til the end. Princeton didn't do that yesterday despite many opportunities late in the game.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 469
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:28 PM - Post#203553
In response to puband09
Not sure how the Montague situation affects the analysis, Yale was 7-1 without him and 5-1 on the road.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 10:29 PM - Post#203554
In response to puband09
You can't say that this team showed poor end-of-game performance overall. They were generally clutch down the stretch. When they got into trouble, it was in first halves.
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thelaird
Freshman
Posts: 33
Age: 66
Reg: 12-08-15
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 10:30 PM - Post#203555
In response to penn nation
Hmmm, didn't think I mentioned the ref, but after a month and and a half, I'd think you would let that go. Out here in the desert west we have two choices, either meditation, or a shot and a beer, then rant for 15 minutes and move on. Personally I use the latter method.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-05-16 10:34 PM - Post#203557
In response to thelaird
Princeton was only "thoroughly outplayed" at Penn if you think that a slower, weaker team should be allowed to foul with impunity. Otherwise, not.
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thelaird
Freshman
Posts: 33
Age: 66
Reg: 12-08-15
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03-05-16 10:36 PM - Post#203558
In response to SRP
Look at the scoreboard is my only reply.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-05-16 11:19 PM - Post#203561
In response to thelaird
You were the one who raised the "gosh, we would have only have been a 'rim roll' away" from an Ivy title.
Just wanted to point out reality to you.
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thelaird
Freshman
Posts: 33
Age: 66
Reg: 12-08-15
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Re: Dartmouth II 03-06-16 12:50 AM - Post#203567
In response to penn nation
Gosh, the reality is you should go back to your penn side of the board or the refs board and I'll stay here with friends.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2801
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-06-16 02:18 AM - Post#203569
In response to thelaird
I like this team even though things didn't turn out quite as we wished this season. They played hard and lived up to all expectations but our own.. Gokinsmen, I think that you are being a bit harsh in your criticism. Harvard was a huge underachiever this season -- even without Chambers. We had the misfortune to play them on one of their finer nights when their talent produced and Steeves had a truly extraordinary evening. We still came painfully close. Our three players on the floor under our basket at the end of the game spoke volumes about the disappointment of this loss to the team. Let's not get into the habit of reflexively bashing our own guys every time we don't win (as do a few fans on another board). To state the obvious: there are two teams on the floor. Both can try hard and play well. But, only one can win.
As for the recent caveat on trolling, we have one especially annoying @ss above. He(?) has contributed nothing amusing, witty or interesting to this board. Best to ignore him while enjoying the flavor of his sour grapes. Eventually, he will return to the Penn boards and bother his fellow alums.
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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03-06-16 10:05 AM - Post#203583
In response to Tiger69
Princeton should finish the season at 12-2, outscoring the league by 11-12 points per game. That's a championship-caliber season -- it just came in a year when Yale had one as well.
Criticizing a coach or team for not going 13-1 in the toughest overall Ivy League of the modern era does not seem very fair.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
Reg: 12-08-04
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03-06-16 10:52 AM - Post#203588
In response to whitakk
I'm willing to assume the criticism is mostly the product of short term disappointment. I don't see how anyone can say the team did not perform well this season.
Turning to the immediate issues, in Kenpom ratings Princeton is nestled between Oregon State and Colorado, both of which are projected to make the NCAAs, but with a much lower SOS. It would be nice to think they get a 2d ivy bid but I would be shocked if that happens. Frankly it would not surprise me if they get left out of the NIT, but perhaps I'm being overly cynical.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-06-16 11:16 AM - Post#203592
In response to whitakk
I agree that there is no reason to criticize MH; he did a great job with what he had. When Brase was hurt, I was thinking we could lose 4-6 games in the league.
My only long term problem with Henderson is his inability to recruit a true center with low post offensive and defensive ability. This seems to be a problem he experienced previously with Carmody at Northwestern. He is able to recruit guards and small forwards in abundance.
Next year Harvard returns Edosomwan, and brings in Chris Lewis 6'8" 240, and Robert Baker 6'9" 190. Yale brings in Jordan Bruner 6'9" 190. Someone needs to be able to defend them, and ideally score over them.
Brase will be strong and is a hard worker, but not a great shot blocker, nor does he score well with his back to the basket. Miller is hardly a wide body. Brennan is not a low post player. Bramlage is only 6'7". From his own description, Will Gladson is a stretch 4.
I keep hoping MH will recruit a talented low post player to compete with the Harvard bigs.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 469
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-06-16 12:35 PM - Post#203598
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
6-9 190 doesn't strike me as D-I ready. But the point is right about getting bigs - hopefully it's a problem of recruiting them not a problem developing them.
Post players are hard to find - and Princeton doesn't have a big man coach any more. In truth, the way Princeton plays now, I think it's more important on the defensive/rebounding end. Offensively it can work with a couple of stretch 4s.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-06-16 12:58 PM - Post#203599
In response to umbrellaman
I have a somewhat different view as I believe that miller will continue to improve and have a strong senior year. When the tigers need to go big defensively they can use both miller and Hans. The lack of a 2nd big man will hurt them this year if they play in the nit as they need two guys with height and the ability to rebound. Next year coach will have much greater flexibility with Hans as a defender against power forwards.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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03-06-16 01:01 PM - Post#203600
In response to umbrellaman
Anyone who suggests that Henderson and his team are "chokers" ought not be taken seriously. Henderson coached around his team's only weakness as well as could be imagined. Zena made us pay for it on Friday, as Sears and Sherrod did in New Haven and DNH almost did at The Palestra. Harvard caught us trying to front Zena near the end of the game and made a great pass over the top. Even after that we still had a chance. If anything, the Tigers overachieved this season and I am exceedingly proud of their results. To come within two or three possessions of an unbeaten season without Brase is simply phenomenal. To have everyone back, including Brase, is a position in which every Ivy coach would love to find himself.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-06-16 01:45 PM - Post#203603
In response to umbrellaman
6-9 190 doesn't strike me as D-I ready. But the point is right about getting bigs - hopefully it's a problem of recruiting them not a problem developing them.
Post players are hard to find - and Princeton doesn't have a big man coach any more. In truth, the way Princeton plays now, I think it's more important on the defensive/rebounding end. Offensively it can work with a couple of stretch 4s.
I wasn't proposing that all of the bigs I mentioned are automatically D1 ready; just that our task in the post is greater next year even with Sears graduating. Some of the less muscular Harvard recruits have offensive skills that will take them to the hoop.
Yes defense and rebounding are more important than offense: look at our success with Brendan Connolly.
Miller showed great improvement this year over last. But improvement from junior to senior year is much less common.
Your point about no longer having a big man coach is a good one. Can we get Levy back? Maybe double his salary!
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puband09
Masters Student
Posts: 782
Reg: 12-19-09
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Dartmouth II 03-06-16 01:54 PM - Post#203604
In response to JadwinGeorge
My personal concern is not along the lines of "the team underachieved this year." We had a very good team that played very well and was well-coached. You could even make the argument objectively/statistically that MH is one of the best coaches Princeton has had.
That said, the Ivy League is much better now. I do not see us getting over the institutional/systemic hump of winning a championship every 2 or 3 years. I believe that was the goal after we replaced Scott with Johnson, and in the bigger picture it's not happening.
I get the impression that the rest of you are resigned to not dominating the conference anymore, and to me that is failing.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-06-16 01:55 PM - Post#203605
In response to JadwinGeorge
Cook had a slow start this year but came on very strong. For next year, cook, bell, and miller should become more consistent players. They clearly have physical tools to improve and grow. Cook was ridiculos in the 1st half last night.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2801
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-06-16 04:19 PM - Post#203613
In response to bradley
I think that the one player who has the most room for improvement and can add an extra dimension to our offense and/or defense is Alec Brennan. The coaches need to decide what they want from him and make that clear for his development in the off season. Right now it would seem that rebounding and defense inside are our biggest needs. Alec needs more weight and strength as well as learning to position himself better to get full advantage of his length and athleticism. I can't see that he has made much progress this season. But, I still hope that he will be a late bloomer.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-07-16 11:35 PM - Post#203725
In response to Tiger69
Tell Brennan to shoot the three and to practice that. He's a natural. And if he can develop more low-post game that would be great. He needs to work a lot on post defense if the Tigers are going to be so dependent on man-to-man defense.
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