SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-11-16 02:17 AM - Post#204174
In response to Old Bear
Since the only athlete poll I know of from NYC Buckets found a majority opposed, I don't see this as a big consideration.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy League Tournament - Official Announcement
03-11-16 08:27 AM - Post#204177
In response to PennFan10
Tp follow-up on the tie breaking rules - the Ivy League Manuel will need to be updated, but ties in all sports are addressed beginning on page 103 - best guess is look at lacrosse that starts on page 114
http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/manua...
Edited by JDP on 03-11-16 08:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy League Tournament - Official Announcement
03-11-16 08:40 AM - Post#204178
In response to Albert08
If they haven't already done so, Princeton and Penn need to revise their schedule next year to play both games in January. Otherwise, they will be at a disadvantage if they play on Tuesday, March 7, 2017, and the other teams complete their schedules on the previous weekend. I guess Princeton gets rid of the Division III game on its schedule after exams.
More interesting is that for the next academic year Princeton's exam schedule is late - starting 18 Jan. Starting with Fri/Sat 27/28 Jan, there are only six weekends before the tournament weekend. Perhaps one of the mid week Tuesdays (between Ivy Weekends) can be used for a game - something that the schools have gotten away from in the past number of years ... but 5 games in 9 days (including a rivalry game) is something coaches shy away from.
The final Tuesday game is likely gone for good ... that would be 5 games in 10 days and for the men, if your are in the play in 16 seed or 11 seed game, that could be 6 in 12.
But the P home and home in early January, just does not feel correct ... perhaps this will mean there will be a game when both schools are in session and not on mid term week?
Edited by JDP on 03-11-16 08:43 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy League Tournament - Official Announcement
03-11-16 08:55 AM - Post#204179
In response to dperry
The other problem, though, is that the tournament ends on Selection Sunday. Checking this year's schedule, the selection show comes on at 5:30 pm. CBS, ESPN, and ESPN2 are all pretty much taken with big conference games between 12:30 and 5:30. Assuming that this schedule remains pretty much the same (and it has been for years now) and that the league isn't so stupid as to actually put the game after the selection show (something the SWAC, I believe, found out was a really bad idea), then either this thing is going to get played starting in the morning, or it's going to be on a smaller network right smack in the middle of when the Power 5 is playing. So much for your publicity for the league. Did I mention these people aren't very good at marketing?
Do you think the Men's Championship will be before the Women's Championship? I think to give the committee a good amount of time to properly consider seeding and at large eligibility, you need to have the men's tournament complete 90-180 min before the telecast starts at 5:30 pm - no-one wants to reshuffle the deck so late ... just something to consider.
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grad84
Freshman
Posts: 15
Age: 64
Reg: 01-28-15
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03-11-16 10:06 AM - Post#204181
In response to JDP
I mourn the loss of the 14 Game Tournament. The regular season games have indisputably lost a lot of the drama that made each game critical. Regular season winners are the champs in the most important soccer leagues in the world and it seems to work for them.
If there's going to be a tournament, as a Harvard fan I fully support having it at the Palestra every year (maybe somewhere else every 5 years). The Palestra is not only the best arena we have in the Ivy League, it is as good as it gets in the NCAA. The Ivy League is fairly geographically contained, and the Palestra is well worth the trip, whether from Hanover or Ithaca.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-11-16 11:00 AM - Post#204188
In response to SRP
I was more than a little suspicious of that poll. How you ask the question matters. If you ask what team is more deserving, the regular season winner or the tourney winner, a vast majority may say the regular season winner. If you ask a player whether they would rather go home after 14 games so the "deserving" team can go to the tourney, or play 2 more games with a shot to go yourself, I think any athlete will say screw the deserving team and let's go play some more games.
It's the difference between Bill Carmody saying Bucknell should go to the tourney after Holy Cross wins the bid, and actually declining the invitation and staying home. In the end, players want to play.
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OneIvyOne
Junior
Posts: 201
Loc: West
Reg: 08-28-13
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03-11-16 12:07 PM - Post#204193
In response to SomeGuy
Why isn't the Tournament Friday - Saturday? Have to play early Sunday to make this work for the Committee.
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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03-11-16 12:27 PM - Post#204195
In response to SomeGuy
I was more than a little suspicious of that poll. How you ask the question matters. If you ask what team is more deserving, the regular season winner or the tourney winner, a vast majority may say the regular season winner. If you ask a player whether they would rather go home after 14 games so the "deserving" team can go to the tourney, or play 2 more games with a shot to go yourself, I think any athlete will say screw the deserving team and let's go play some more games.
That 'poll' is from four years ago, when the tournament first came up. The wording I used when reaching out to players was: "I am writing about the potential for an Ivy League basketball tournament, and I'm trying to get a sense of how players feel about the possibility. Would you like or dislike an annual post-season conference tournament in some form?"
The results were something like 5-6 opposed, 2 in favor, 1 uncommitted. (Original source: http://dailyprincetonian.com/sports/2012/04/basket ... )
It was absolutely not a scientific survey, more of a straw poll, so I wouldn't draw strong conclusions from it. (And the entire player poll has turned over since then, so sentiment could be different now.) But I haven't seen much better information on player opinion.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-11-16 12:41 PM - Post#204197
In response to whitakk
Thanks. Hope my "suspicion" didn't come across as casting aspersions on your work, which is/was much appreciated by all of us Ivy fans.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-11-16 01:42 PM - Post#204204
In response to SomeGuy
I wasn't trying to build a case on that interesting journalism, just pointing out that the claim that being for the tourney is virtuous because it is allegedly pro-player has no support.
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Dr. V
PhD Student
Posts: 1539
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-11-16 05:05 PM - Post#204214
In response to SRP
I've evolved from having been a supporter of the idea of a tournament to now being in the opposite camp--for all of the 14-game tournament reasons. But now that we have one, I think the way to make most sense of it is, as grad84 suggests, to think of the regular season and the tournament as two separate enterprises rather than the second being the continuity of the first. The analogy to European soccer, where, to my incomprehension, teams seem to play in parallel competitions, i.e., the regular season, an in-country tourney and an international tourney, makes sense. The regular season champ should still be the big deal, as it is in Euro soccer. The tourney should be viewed as an additional rather than substitute prize to seek.
Re venue, starting at the Palestra of course makes sense. If it turns out that attendance is high--particularly when Penn is not a participant--then staying there continues to make sense. If, however, attendance is low in non-Penn situations, it would make more sense to move to Levien, given its geographical centrality and large number of Ivy alums, in that a packed Levien is a better venue than a sparsely filled Palestra.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-11-16 05:59 PM - Post#204219
In response to Dr. V
I've never been a fan of a post-season tournament but somehow I always assumed that if one ever came to pass then surely the regular season champ would host it. This way the regular season champion would get a real advantage in the post-season tournament. The decision to hold it at the Palestra is really outrageous as it completely dismisses the views of traditionalists who value the "14 game tournament" and think that the double round robin should mean something. Each of the eight venues has its own peculiarities that provides a home court advantage--an appropriate advantage for the regular season champ. It always made sense to hold play-in games between teams that ended the regular season tied at neutral settings, but this is a different animal we are talking about here. Disgusted by this decision.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-11-16 06:08 PM - Post#204222
In response to TigerFan
While I favor the tournament generally, I agree with you about the play-in issue. Why would a league that has always settled ties on the court now decide to settle who makes the conference tournament by a tiebreaker?
Let them play in. It's fairer, it means more basketball for more kids, and it won't detract from the likelihood of the regular season champ winning the thing.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-11-16 06:17 PM - Post#204223
In response to Dr. V
If the Harvard Yale game saw the Palestra draw 5,256 last year, I can't see how Levien will ever make sense. Even if the losing teams fans in Game 1 leave, the % of those leaving would be the same in each gym and I don't see it ever drawing under 4,000.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
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Ivy League Tournament - Official Announcement
03-11-16 06:25 PM - Post#204224
In response to Quakers03
I saw the Princeton-Harvard play-in at the church and it was great despite the gym's tiny size. They probably could have sold twice as many tickets (or more) and held it at the Palestra but that would not have really been fair to Harvard.
The regular season champ should host this thing, no matter the size of their gym, to give them an appropriate prize for winning. Is this all about the $$ now? Have we lost our soul? Come on people.
Edited by TigerFan on 03-11-16 06:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2698
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-11-16 07:27 PM - Post#204232
In response to TigerFan
I think that, other than the warped souls on boards like this one, no one will care about or watch the league's ill timed truncated 'tournament.' I suspect that very few watched the recently completed mid major tournaments, most of which were purposefully scheduled so as not to conflict with the Big Five tournaments. Instead, we're going to play games on Saturday/Sunday, competing for viewers with the final rounds of the big conferences. All of this, of course, to possibly confirm the participation of a conference champion of a middle ranked conference whose champion generally receives a 13 seed anyway. Thus, in most years, to the rest of the country, this tournament will be of little or no interest. The only time anyone cares about Ivy League basketball is when the best Ivy Team (again, usually ranked around 50th or so out of the 68 teams) has a chance to pull an upset. Of course, by holding a tournament and risking the likelihood that our season champ might not go to the tournament, all we are doing is minimizing the possibility that we are relevant once every few years for a few hours during the round of 64. The cost, of course, is making our regular season irrelevant in favor of one weekend, and choosing a weekend when the spotlight can't possibly be on us.
An unmitigated disaster.
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hoopla
Masters Student
Posts: 486
Age: 50
Reg: 08-28-12
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03-11-16 07:45 PM - Post#204235
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Every game is relevant and will remain that way with a tournament!
I've always liked everything you say HDadGrad, and I feel like you're a true H fan, but if you stop caring about reg season games because of this tournament, it makes it seem like you're not a legit H fan.
Saying that the reg season is now "meaningless" and "irrelevant" makes you seem like a fare weather fan. What did you do in the Sullivan days when H was not competitive with the Ps, and generally out of contention after the first weekend or two?
Did you only become a fan when Amaker took over and H started winning?
I watch every second I can of Dartmouth hoops, just as Penn fans do even over the last 9 years, and feel like every game is hugely important regardless of where they stand or whether or not they have a chance at the title.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2698
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-11-16 07:54 PM - Post#204240
In response to hoopla
I understand your observations. I never said I wouldn't keep my season tix or follow the season, but, as long as a team finishes in the top 4, the results are meaningless as far as Ivy consequences go. The league regular season title is now of no consequence. It's a fact.
I guess results matter for NIT participation or a second NCAA bid.
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grad84
Freshman
Posts: 15
Age: 64
Reg: 01-28-15
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03-11-16 08:19 PM - Post#204243
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
The beauty of the Friday/Saturday night games is that title hopes can be dashed in any given game -- on the road at Ithaca or at home on a bad shooting net. In a year like 2015-16, there's no real net
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3678
Reg: 02-06-10
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Re: Ivy League Tournament - Official Announcement
03-11-16 09:11 PM - Post#204246
In response to section110
Recent sub fourth place Penn teams have knocked off first place Cornell & Harvard teams at the Palestra, let alone the fits they've given Princeton there. I think it will be a lot more often than once every ten years.
But pulling off TWO upsets in one weekend is exponentially tougher. It's very possible that a #4 beats a #1. But a #4 beating a #1 then a #2 the next night? That's going to be rare.
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