OneIvyOne
Junior
Posts: 201
Loc: West
Reg: 08-28-13
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03-15-16 12:48 PM - Post#204554
In response to westphillywarrior
The key to that may be to NOT win it the first year, get a long term commitment, then win it regularly.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-15-16 02:15 PM - Post#204559
In response to CrimsonHoops
Given the plethora of very articulate reasons previously stated in other posts, I am surprised that one could imply that there is no evidence that players and recruits prefer or even care about a conference tournament. Yes, I do get the reasons why many traditionalists are against changing from the current format. However, the fact that virtually all of the Ivy men’s and women’s basketball coaches, as well as their ADs, strongly pushed to get their Presidents to vote in favor of this tournament is ample evidence how their players and recruits feel about playing in an Ivy League tournament in March. I have never met a coach or at least one who lasted that was not very cognizant of the preferences of his/her players and their elite recruits. Quote
I suspect that you may be correct that a tournament may marginally improve the ability to recruit elite basketball players although time will tell if the "theory" is correct. We should start to get a sense as to the reality with the decisions made by the 2017-2018 class if indeed the theory is true. I suspect that it will help the second tier Ivy League teams more in the recruiting process based on the possibility of going to the big dance.
We do know as a "fact" that the Ivy League has been improving over the past decade based on performance measurements without a post-season tournament. Possible theoretical reasons for the improved play versus other mid-major conferences might be a result of: the importance of an Ivy education during turbulent economic times,
the performance of Ivy League teams from 2009 in the NCAA tournament, the improved reputation of the league, Coach Amaker's success, Jeremy Lin in the NBA, etc. etc.
If an Ivy League tournament is very important in the recruiting process, Coach Amaker must have committed a recruiting violation, only kidding, with the class of 2016-2017 by winking at them that an Ivy League post-season tournament would be in place during their freshmen year. I am guessing with an Ivy League tournament, Amaker will be getting 4 and 5 star recruits going forward.
If I was an Ivy League coach, I would probably support the tournament as it may give me more dollar resources to enhance my program.
Let's check back in 3 to 5 years to see if higher level recruits and two NCAA bids are theoretical or real.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-15-16 05:32 PM - Post#204586
In response to westphillywarrior
The Coaches and the ADs recommended the changes. Does anyone think they did it in spite of the players opposition?
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1345
Reg: 12-08-04
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Ivy League Tournament - Official Announcement
03-16-16 08:52 AM - Post#204618
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
If all 8 teams in a league can't beat a single top 50 team OOC (0-17?), then we may be getting what we deserve ... for now. Hopefully, that changes.
No doubt that failure does not help. But if you read Andy Glockner's SI article posted in the "Monmouth snub" thread, it becomes more apparent that such wins hardly assure inclusion. The evidence is clear that reasons will be found to exclude mid majors, not to include them, or even neutrally assess them. I used PU's stats above because this is an IL board, but the same point can be made about other mid majors.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-16-16 02:43 PM - Post#204665
In response to Old Bear
Do you think Ivy football players don't want to go to the playoffs? I doubt any serious effort was made to lay out separate options to the players and poll their responses.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-16-16 03:18 PM - Post#204667
In response to SRP
I would think that the members of Ivy Football teams would feel the same way the Basketball, Hockey, Lacrosse, baseball, etc. players feel.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-16-16 11:55 PM - Post#204756
In response to SRP
If you want to get a few laughs watch Mike Greenberg and Mike Golic get somewhat worked up about the Ivy League going to a post-season tournament. Not a lot of substance but Greenberg gets pretty worked up about how foolish the concept. 2 minute video on the internet from five days ago.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-17-16 02:30 PM - Post#204782
In response to bradley
I am a fan of the conference tournament because I think, over time, it makes the conference stronger and increases the chances of a 2nd bid. With a conference tournament, I think Ivy league schools are more attractive to recruits who want to play more games. It also allows 3-4 other teams with realistic chances to make the NCAA tournament. If Harvard continues on it's lock on the NCAA AQ (current year excepted), then it only takes one team to get hot late and win two games to get the AQ.
If, for example, Harvard finishes 13-1 and has wins in the non conference against top 50 teams the likes of Kansas, Auburn and Oklahoma, and then Penn or Columbia get hot and win the tournament to get the AQ, the chances of an at large bid for are increasingly good.
And that success would likely lead to more 4 star type recruits to pick Ivy league schools which would make the conference stronger. If we are a top 10 conference with 3-4 teams getting 4 star recruits and beating top 50 teams in the non conference, we will get regular looks at an at large bid. Harvard wouldn't like it, but it's better for the conference long term.
Outside of Bucknell, who doesn't like the Holy Cross story this year? And their NCAA appearance and First Four win is absolutely going to help their recruiting.
It's plausible.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1885
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-16 04:47 PM - Post#204796
In response to PennFan10
Evidence that Penn fans have completely given up hope of ever winning the Ivy championship again. Sad really...
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12530
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-17-16 04:50 PM - Post#204798
In response to TigerFan
It's such a pleasure having a team representing the Ivies this year that I actually enjoy cheering for...
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-17-16 10:34 PM - Post#204859
In response to PennFan10
Great win by Yale - great win for the Ivy League. No great surprise as Yale is a very good team and they outplayed Baylor. They are the talk of town on sports radio based on a 1 1/2 hour drive this evening and will be tomorrow. If they beat Duke, tough but possible, the roof will come off. Their win today creates great publicity for Ivy League basketball and opened up the eyes of some of the doubters, i.e. Charles Barkley.
Today's game is a good advertisement as to why the Ivy League should have waited to have a post-season tournament for at least several years. Fair minded and rational fans would probably agree with the statement that Yale is the best team in the Ivy League this year -- performance metrics, 3 Ivy League 1st teamers, etc. It is very unlikely, my opinion, that Harvard, Columbia or Princeton could have beaten Baylor and even more unlikely if Harvard or Columbia would have won their initial game with a 15 or 16 seed. Although Yale may have well won the Ivy League tournament this year, it was possible that Harvard - Columbia or Princeton could have knocked them off in one post-season game. Tigers beat them at home by 9 pts and Yale almost lost to Dartmouth at home, 1 pt, so anything can happen in one game.
Yale has size/strength to compete with the big boys, skills (i.e. Makai Mason) and a senior based team so they best represent the Ivies and have/will carry the banner. Since Cornell's visit to the Sweet 16, Princeton's 2 pt loss to ultimate NCAA champ Kentucky and Harvard's gritty performance over several years, the reputation of the league has grown but it is not yet at the 2 bid level yet. Why risk losing the momentum by going to an Ivy tournament vs. sending the best team to compete in a given year with the big boys until the Ivies have their fair share of big boys. Does NCAA success assist recruiting? I think so.
Yale's success this year will help the league in future years, i.e. Princeton women's success last year, lead to two bids this year.
I appreciate and understand that many people have different opinions for good reasons but just listen and read tomorrow as to what Yale accomplished for the Ivy League today.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-16 02:16 AM - Post#204864
In response to bradley
That's a short sighted viewpoint in my opinion. If Yale and Princeton were in the NCAA's this year, wouldn't it have been better for the Ivy league than just Yale?
That wouldn't have happened this year, but with a tournament that's more possible over time as more talent comes to the Ivy league.
I believe a tournament makes our conference more attractive to recruits league wide and eventually helps us get 2 teams in.
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-18-16 10:09 AM - Post#204884
In response to PennFan10
I don't, but we will see. What is a fair time frame to judge?
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-18-16 10:27 AM - Post#204889
In response to PennFan10
Coach Donahue, your coach, has a very different view than you regarding the Ivy League tournament. You will probably be able to hear the interview at wip 94.1 that was held this morning. Eskin had him on the radio show to comment about Yale. Donahue was eloquent as to why Yale should represent the Ivy League based on their success in the Ivy League regular season -- all class. It is certainly not in his short-term interests to not be a fan of the Ivy League tournament. You could feel his uneasiness as to not being politically correct with some of his comments. His major thrust as to improving the competiveness of the league vs. other leagues relates to giving BB players athletic scholarships as he sees that as the way to further enhance the league. Thank goodness, Penn fans are fortunate to have a Coach with integrity and guts.
Your notion that the post-season tournament will improve the chances of a second bid is supposition as are most of the arguments as to why a post-season tournament is a good thing for the league other than money and giving 4 teams a chance. Simply go back from 2009-2010 to view who finished 1-4 in the Ivy League and see if you would like to have sent the 3rd or 4th placed teams to the tournament from a competitive and reputation standpoint. 50% of the time, the second place team was a drop down from the 1st place team.
If Yale continues to advance, there will probably be more questions as to why did the Ivy League turn to a tournament format as Eskin asked this morning. Donahue did say that at least only 4 of 8 teams can qualify.
Last time I am writing about this topic as time will tell if the post-season tournament is a good thing. I do wish that the vote was taken after this year's tournament.
Go Bulldogs!!!!
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-16 02:50 PM - Post#204907
In response to bradley
Wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with the coach of my team. Probably won't be he last.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-16 02:56 PM - Post#204909
In response to PennFan10
Nor your fellow alums, most of whom oppose a tournament....although if you are Class of '10, I can understand why you would feel that way.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-16 04:40 PM - Post#204925
In response to palestra38
I am not necessarily in favor of a tournament but I recognize how it might be good for the league. Doesn't mean I'm right but there aren't many basketball conferences that don't have them. Even at D3 level where money has nothing to do with it most conferences have conference tourneys. I do think they should have the tournament at the #1 seeds school. That would give a big advantage to the regular season champ.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-18-16 05:25 PM - Post#204929
In response to bradley
Middle Tennessee's win could be used to make the opposite argument. If not for a conference tourney, they wouldn't have been there to beat MSU.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-16 05:45 PM - Post#204931
In response to SomeGuy
True, but that's an isolated instance. Holy Cross is another example. Plenty of examples for both sides of this issue.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-18-16 05:45 PM - Post#204932
In response to SomeGuy
Middle Tenn just blew up my brackets, but though I am in morning, I still favor a Tourney.
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