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Username Post: Virginia Tech        (Topic#18880)
puband09 
Masters Student
Posts: 782

Reg: 12-19-09
03-17-16 04:33 PM - Post#204792    
    In response to umbrellaman

  • umbrellaman Said:
The days of on average winning every other championship are long gone.



I think most posters here overblow this point.

If Amaker leaves (and even more so if Jones also leaves) this League would start to look a lot like it did in the '90s, and a space could open up for a team to win every couple years.


 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Virginia Tech
03-17-16 04:35 PM - Post#204793    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

  • Quote:
So what you are saying is, you don't remember Chris Thomforde or Andy Rimol?




The best Princeton teams of the '70s, '80s, '90s (and almost the '00s) had one thing in common: a center who could handle the ball, pass from the high post, set the high screen and nail a little hook shot. Rimol, Simkus, Mueller, Goodrich, Young (ah what might have been) could all do this. I think Pete Miller has come a long way (and was impressed by Brennan's defense last night), but we haven't had the classic Princeton "point center" in quite a while. I think that is the missing piece that differentiates what is a really good Princeton team from the great teams that won the league and games in the NCAA tournament.

 
IvyHoopsFan01 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Age: 63
Reg: 10-28-14
03-17-16 04:38 PM - Post#204794    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Excellent point. I watched a ton of Northwestern games over the years. Under Carmody, NU would look good for three quarters, but lose in the fourth quarter as they would gradually wear down, get pounded on the offensive glass and have to overcome shooting a ton fewer free throws due to facing much more athletic Big ten teams. Carmody's style and recruiting approach is a perfect fit for the Patriot League, which struggles to recruit the more athletic, immense wingspan players.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Virginia Tech
03-17-16 04:42 PM - Post#204795    
    In response to TigerFan

Fair enough as to offense, and good names, but my recollection is they tended to get so worn down playing D against the "horses" that their offense typically suffered as the game went on, a problem compounded by the very short or even non-existent rotations usually employed.

Also, I defer to the experts, but is there really a role for the old "point center" on the offense as now run?

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Virginia Tech
03-17-16 04:52 PM - Post#204799    
    In response to sparman

I may be dating myself with the "point center" reference but I don't remember Richie Simkus wearing down against Oklahoma State's Leroy Combs or Steve Goodrich tiring.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1871

Reg: 11-21-04
03-17-16 04:54 PM - Post#204800    
    In response to TigerFan

By the way folks, the fact that Yale is holding a strong lead over Baylor without Sears or Sherrod in the game is scary. They have a lot more coming back next year than I thought...

 
gokinsmen 
Postdoc
Posts: 3634

Reg: 02-06-10
Virginia Tech
03-17-16 05:41 PM - Post#204838    
    In response to TigerFan

Yale showing us how it's done. Great leadership from Jones and Mason.

I hope Mitch and the players saw the game and learned something. Or at least got some motivation out of it -- that could have been us; that should have been us. But it wasn't.

No more excuses and self-handicapping. No more "moral victories." The idea that no human being from the Ivy could possibly win a tough game is ridiculous. We just need to stay focused for 48 minutes.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-18-16 04:06 AM - Post#204865    
    In response to gokinsmen

As a defense-first kind of fan (who actually enjoyed watching Butler in those two NCAA runs to the Final Four and now gets a kick out of Wichita State), I have some issues with how MH puts a team together. This year I thought they took a step forward on D but needed to take two steps. Against VT, which had little good outside shooting, it was very frustrating to see the guys overextending and leaving the middle open, and to see so little zone defense. This team is made for the amoeba defense that Holy Cross has been using for the last five games with great success.

On the offensive end, I do not really love the simplified version of the Princeton offense that we've seen this year, but on the whole it has been remarkably efficient. Against the Hokies, the Tigers got a ton of really good open treys and just couldn't hit a thing. The problem, of course, is that all that reliance on the trey creates high variance and some nights turn out like that. The St. Joe's game had the same feel. We need more good options for scoring inside, whether that be by post-up or cut to the hoop, because we won't always be able to find a favorable mismatch on drives against the better defensive teams.

Miller was a good defensive option most of the year, but he really needs to be more involved offensively against stronger defenses. I think he's a good passer and it would be nice to see some possessions run through him at the mid-post or high post. We had one sequence against VT where Stephens played high-post center and scored on a beautiful fake handoff, counter spin, and drive to the basket. Don't expect to see that set very much, but it might not be a bad idea. Brennan looked pretty good against the Hokies--it might have been his best all-around game--but he still needs to work on a lot of things.

The player who has disappointed me the most this year is probably Bell. He did many, many good things but except for one or two games tended to disappear when things weren't going well. You need your point guard to stop the bleeding, both during bad offensive possessions and during bad halves. At some point next year, Cannady may need to take the starting job with Bell coming off the bench.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Virginia Tech
03-18-16 08:17 AM - Post#204870    
    In response to gokinsmen

40 minutes in college....

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
03-18-16 08:25 AM - Post#204871    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Against VT, which had little good outside shooting, it was very frustrating to see the guys overextending and leaving the middle open, and to see so little zone defense. This team is made for the amoeba defense that Holy Cross has been using for the last five games with great success.

On the offensive end, I do not really love the simplified version of the Princeton offense that we've seen this year, but on the whole it has been remarkably efficient.

Miller was a good defensive option most of the year, but he really needs to be more involved offensively against stronger defenses.

Brennan looked pretty good against the Hokies--it might have been his best all-around game--but he still needs to work on a lot of things.

The player who has disappointed me the most this year is probably Bell. At some point next year, Cannady may need to take the starting job with Bell coming off the bench.



All very good points.

I do not expect Miller to become a different offensive player, but Brennan could improve dramatically a la Caruso. Let us hope.

Mason showed the kind of leadership that Bell will need to provide, or risk losing the starting job to Cannady.

The Ivy tournament next year, with the Harvard freshmen having played together all year, is going to be a real pressure cooker. We will need more than anything strong guard leadership.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
Postdoc
Posts: 2262
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Virginia Tech
03-18-16 08:30 AM - Post#204872    
    In response to gokinsmen

  • gokinsmen Said:
That could have been us; that should have been us. But it wasn't.



A sad epitaph to an exciting season. I feel for the team. They worked so hard and came so close.


 
JadwinGeorge 
Senior
Posts: 357

Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
03-18-16 09:10 AM - Post#204876    
    In response to SRP

Steve: We are very much on the same page on most issues. Identifying a need (offense from the post) and filling it are two much different things. Princeton has a difficult time getting the Zena-type big men, for a number of reasons, most of them, shall we say, institutional. Henderson figured out that scoring is maximized by taking a lot of threes by kids who can make more than their share. Of course, that leads to "high variance" outcomes but mostly it led to an unbeaten season at home and an overall record of 22-7 (maybe 5-6 possessions from 26-3)I saw what you saw from Brennan at the end and, sadly, I share your concern about Bell. He was not the same player that he was at Penn in Game 1. I know the staff to a man believes that Brennan has a huge upside. He remains much too predictable with the ball, but could take some big strides between soph and junior seasons. With Brase back Bell could be the odd man out. I think Cannady needs more minutes although Bell probably defends Mason and Chambers better than anyone else we have. Interesting year ahead.

 
SecS3 
Junior
Posts: 246

Age: 75
Reg: 03-17-16
03-18-16 10:51 AM - Post#204890    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I guess you can call me Vonsid the 2nd because I too have been reading this board for years but have not posted anything since correspondence was done via emails on Jon Solomon's board. I am also utterly amazed at gokinsmen's lambasting of Mitch Henderson and especially flabbergasted by him calling the team chokers. Does he even watch the games? Saying that there will be more of the same next year makes me wonder if I should even bother renewing my season tickets as apparently we are about to undergo the second coming of Joe Scott. I think gokinsmen needs to find another team to "support". Rutgers could probably use some more fans. They seemed to be happy with their coach and they never choke away any games. The Tigers shortcomings are as plain as black and wh....uhhh sorry, black and orange. We have a lot of nice players but they're all 6'3" - 6'5" except for Cannady who's a little smaller. Hence we have problems defending the interior against strong, athletic big men. The level of the center play is not equal to the other four guys on the court with him. Miller has improved and has been much more aggressive rebounding this year. He's a good help defender, decent passer and has some quickness. He's not a good low post one on one defender and he can't shoot. All his scoring is a foot from the basket. This is not meant to belittle him, it's just the way it is. Brennan can shoot but he doesn't have that confident aggressiveness yet.

I don't want to run on too long beating a soon to be dead horse and I apologize for chiming in so late on this but I had trouble registering and couldn't post until now.

As an added note, you have to include '67 to the list of tough to swallow post season loses. I'm also surprised no one mentioned John Hummer when discussing centers. He was arguably the best defensive center in the history of the league.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
03-18-16 12:25 PM - Post#204895    
    In response to SRP

I like your analysis and agree with the vast majority. Hopefully, Coach H not only has the goal of getting to the NCAA tournament next year but actually trying to get to the sweet 16. The days of just getting to the tournament should not be the sole goal based on how the Ivy League is improving. How might the Tigers compete against the big boys out of conference, Harvard, and in the NCAA tournament?

Need to play Miller/Brennan for at least 30 minutes per game

Get Brase to play PF as a defensive player and try to keep him from just shooting 3 pointers or try, unlikely to succeed, giving Brennan some time as a PF.

Have Caruso come off the bench for instant offense and favorable match ups

Have Cannady start as you will need his offense with Miller/Brennan and Brase on the floor. Cannady does need to improve his defense and Bell should provide defense off the bench when needed. Maybe, Bell can take a big step forward and change the plan.

Play Cook and Weisz a lot and let Cook's athleticism fully kick in and have Stephens come in with the right match ups to use his athleticism but not defending against 6'8" opposing players.

The wild card is can Brase play PF and be successful. If not, the Tigers are in trouble. Major challenge will be can Coach H manage players' egos with changes to personnel and distributing minutes -- very tough.


Big picture, Coach H needs to move away from just having a small team on the floor although that type of team can win a lot of games next year other than the big boys.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
03-18-16 03:17 PM - Post#204916    
    In response to bradley

Miller has improved every year. I wonder if his very limited offensive role by design hasn't hindered his development. Having all those better options might lead to a competency trap for the team, where they never develop an inside game because it's always more expedient to put up another trey.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Virginia Tech
03-20-16 08:27 AM - Post#205056    
    In response to gokinsmen

  • gokinsmen Said:
Yale showing us how it's done. Great leadership from Jones and Mason.

I hope Mitch and the players saw the game and learned something. Or at least got some motivation out of it -- that could have been us; that should have been us. But it wasn't.

No more excuses and self-handicapping. No more "moral victories." The idea that no human being from the Ivy could possibly win a tough game is ridiculous. We just need to stay focused for 48 minutes.



After watching the Yale/Duke, I thought about your comment "that could have been us; that should have been us". I thought about Sears, Sherrod, Victor and Mason's play against Baylor and Yale. The statement that it could have been us is plausible although unlikely that the Tigers would have been able to beat Yale twice. The statement that "should have been us" is a typical emotional fan's response to not winning. I am not sure that if the Tigers lost to Baylor or Duke, your commentary would have been that Coach Henderson is a choke artist and the team just cannot step up in crunch time.

The Ivy League is very competitive and it is not easy to win --- get used to it. The Tigers are competitive and the mere fact that they beat Yale handily at home in a very tough game says so much as to character and ability.


 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Virginia Tech
03-20-16 10:21 AM - Post#205061    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:
After watching the Yale/Duke, I thought about your comment "that could have been us; that should have been us". I thought about Sears, Sherrod, Victor and Mason's play against Baylor and Yale.


I thought about Sears originally being a near-PU recruit. I doubt he meant Yale's first half versus Duke.


 
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