palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-30-16 04:00 PM - Post#205544
There is a poll on the current DP website---it says all you need to know on how far the basketball program has fallen. It's on the adoption of an Ivy tournament at the Palestra and goes like this:
Ivy League basketball will, for the first time, have a conference tournament at the end of next season to decide the Ivy League champion. How do you feel?
(1) Pumped – This will be exciting!
23%
(2) Mad – I liked the champion being the team with the most wins.
10%
(3) Indifferent – Both systems are fine.
6%
(4) I do not care about Quaker basketball.
62%
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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 Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
03-31-16 01:18 PM - Post#205581
In response to palestra38
In fairness to both Bilsky and beloved alma mater, I see no good reason to believe that the same poll at any of the other Ivies would produce a significantly better response for "don't care," and I would bet that at most of them, the number would be even higher--and I am not excepting Harvard and Yale in this discussion.
This is another ticking time bomb in Ivy athletics right now--we are producing a ever more expensive and spectacular product for a diminishing audience, and the fact that the product is generally getting better does not seem to be increasing its appeal any with that audience. This is not a set of circumstances that can continue indefinitely.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
03-31-16 01:57 PM - Post#205586
In response to dperry
No, it's Bilsky's fault. Read this student profile of Penn Athletics in 2003:
https://colleges.niche.com/university-of-pennsyl va...
Yes, the student body has changed and signficantly so from my era (mid-late '70s) and from yours as well. But has it changed so much that over the last 10 or so years, we have gone from a "Line" and fanatical support of at least basketball to NOTHING? No. We lost the student body simply by sucking for so long. After 9 years, there is no one that remembers what Penn Basketball was, all student traditions have faded away and now there are maybe 10-15 students at a game other than major Big 5 games or top Ivy games....even then it's usually because of a promotion. It's dead, and barring an amazing new run that energizes the student body, it isn't coming back.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
03-31-16 02:16 PM - Post#205589
In response to dperry
You are probably right that the interest level is pretty low amongst the students based on looking at empty seats for many of the games on the Ivy League Network -- older crowd attends the games. Is it somewhat a function of the students attending Ivy League schools vs. twenty plus years ago as to their lack of interest in sports? I was watching a young Tiger student sitting with two friends and he was rewriting a paper on his PC rather than watching the most important game of the year. Think that it may be a function of the students attending the Ivies now vs. the game itself.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
03-31-16 02:24 PM - Post#205590
In response to bradley
Having had a daughter who just was graduated from Penn (grew up on Penn BB and wrote sports for the DP for 2 years), I know how much the student body has changed---and that change is probably more stark at Penn than HYPr, where 35 years ago, Penn had a student body 2/3 male, 85% white and 50% or more from the NE Corridor--those kids grew up on Marv and the Knicks (or Johnny Most or Bill Campbell, etc) and were sports fans. There is far more diversity now, many more foreign born students and the percentage of those who are basketball or football fans has dropped precipitously.
BUT, while Penn was winning, it still had a tradition of student attendance that has now completely fallen apart. It's the losing (and just boring games) that destroyed the tradition.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-31-16 02:36 PM - Post#205591
In response to palestra38
so it stands to reason that winning will bring them back? So what's the excuse at Harvard? I would think if Penn can get back to the level of top 50 team or so, they could attract big programs who want to play at the Palestra and interest could be rekindled. Big games against top tier teams.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-31-16 02:43 PM - Post#205592
In response to PennFan10
Once the tradition is killed, it is much harder to regain it. I'm talking about student interest here. Obviously, if Penn somehow took a magic pill and became a top 50 team again and played NC at the Palestra again, it would sell out even if no students were there.
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Carl0731
Sophomore
Posts: 187
Reg: 02-07-06
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03-31-16 03:33 PM - Post#205596
In response to palestra38
It is the losing, but I think it could be rekindled by a string of winning seasons. When we had that 1 good season in 2011-12, interest was starting to grow, and the Palestra was kind of electric when Harvard came in. Unfortunately, what followed doused the fire before it really got started. I attended from 1966 to 1970. The first couple years there was no interest. Penn BBall was what happened as the first part of a doubleheader. What got it going was a 35 foot shot at the buzzer by our favorite villain. Let's see what SD can accomplish over the next couple years.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-31-16 08:16 PM - Post#205613
In response to Carl0731
Ivy students still support winning teams, but only winning teams, because it becomes the thing to do. Brown's LAX game will be sold out on Sat., despite the weather, and the students will stay 'till the end if Brown is ahead. There were more Yale fans in Providence for the Duke game than for Baylor, and more than went to Yale home games. P38, times have changed.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Nice Job, Bilsky
03-31-16 09:53 PM - Post#205615
In response to Old Bear
Ivy admissions offices focus so heavily on achievers and diversity, and there are so many offerings on campus, that there aren't many 'spectators.'
I believe I attended more Harvard basketball games from NJ the last two years than my son did from his dorm on the Charles River.
The fact that Harvard's new basketball arena will only seat 3,000 acknowledges this phenomenon.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-31-16 09:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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JAG
Freshman
Posts: 30
Reg: 11-26-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-01-16 01:07 AM - Post#205622
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
A competitive men's b-ball team will draw 7000 or more to the Palestra in future. During the year Penn almost tied Harvard for the title, there were great crowds for Princeton and Harvard, and St Joe's was as usual a sellout. It may be true that today's students are from more diverse backgrounds, but they are not immune to Big Sports hype. It reaches Ivy level, as when Columbia won the CTA(?) a few nights ago. The Espin guy also remarked Yale's, Harvard's and Princeton's success in recent NCAA First Rounds. And Columbia's student body must be as diverse as Penn's--they packed Levien several times this past season. The Ivy talent level is rising, according to several posts. so what if the field houses are small--that brews a great atmosphere--if the team can win. Finally, as for Penn kids' interest in spectator sports, during the Phils 5-year run, there were lots of college types in Penn gear at the Cit. All we need is a winning team in an increasingly respectable league.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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04-01-16 01:37 AM - Post#205624
In response to JAG
Many of the old timers are reminiscing about glory days and packed houses... but are forgetting about the Schneider years. The house was not packed all of the time back then. It was packed for Big 5 doubleheaders, but largely by the other team. Games against bad ivy teams were pretty empty.
I even remember that the pre-season NIT game when Penn played Virginia (the first game of the Maloney years at Penn) was not a packed house, and that was the beginning of a dynasty.
Winning fills the stands and losing breeds disinterest.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-01-16 08:07 AM - Post#205626
In response to Penndemonium
During the Schneider era, Penn won one title and Schneider's record was 3 under .500 for his 4 years. There always was an active student section during that period. To compare Schneider's era (and remember, he took a team that had 2 straight losing years under Page and was 15-11 his first year and followed that with that tremendous run his second year to snatch a title) with the pure awfulness that has been the Miller and Allen era is revisionist history. The student interest was there at that point---I remember that when Penn finished strong in '91 with mostly leftover Schneider players and walkon football players, the students gave the team a raucous ovation. Things are completely lost now. Even winning will not create basketball fans, although there will be plenty who come out because it is the thing to do. So I'll agree that winning will certainly improve things, but it will be very hard to create true interest in basketball at Penn.
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coins
Sophomore
Posts: 195
Reg: 01-16-07
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04-01-16 08:35 AM - Post#205631
In response to palestra38
I don't disagree with anything said, but there is one other factor--TV. In the glory days most TV was local. You missed nothing going to a game. Now you might pass Duke-Carolina and a host of other games attractive to a sports fan by going. Dunphy once told me that TV would kill the golden egg in terms of attendance for your mid-majors. Even when (I'm an optimist) we contend, it will never be the way it was.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-01-16 09:02 AM - Post#205632
In response to coins
We now have the DVR, though. You don't miss anything on TV (and the kids don't even have TV's--they watch everything streamed) by going to a game.
Look, I'm as hopeful as anyone that Donahue can turn things around and I'll be there to watch. I just don't see a student contingent that really cares ever coming back.
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coins
Sophomore
Posts: 195
Reg: 01-16-07
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04-01-16 09:39 AM - Post#205634
In response to palestra38
In general I agree and there are lots of reasons. I still think a contender will spike interest, although never like the old days. My daughter, also a Penn grad, was at all the games. Her HS friend who never went to a game even in HS, went to Yale games the year of the three way tie. After that she did not. It just becomes the thing to do especially against rivals and on Friday nights, which are less filled with events than Saturday.
(And I know a lot of people, afraid of knowing results, will not watch a DVR game except as a last resort).
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-01-16 11:12 AM - Post#205640
In response to palestra38
Well, the student interest was not there back in '89-'90 when Dunphy first took over. There were numerous games where I was one of 4 students behind the basket. When opponents were shooting free throws, all 4 of us would run in different directions right as they were about to shoot.
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Penn94
PhD Student
Posts: 1461
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-01-16 01:09 PM - Post#205652
In response to SomeGuy
I love remembering the golden age of the 90s, but the late 80s/early 90s Schneider to Dunphy era looked very similar to what we see now re: student support.
My friends and I were the ones who re-started THE LINE before the 1992-93 season (I drove my car up to the Palestra box office and we slept in my car overnight to start the line). My freshman season, 90-91, student support was awful. and it was only marginally better in 91-92. I think the reason many of the alumns may remember this differently was because back then, the students sat in chairbacks and therefore were a much more louder presence.
Taking students out of the chairbacks was one of the dumbest things ever done. And Bilsky was responsible for that as well (with some support from many alumns).
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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04-01-16 04:48 PM - Post#205668
In response to Penn94
I knew zippo about Penn basketball and only vaguely knew about the Palestra (having watched DePaul lose to St. Joe's on TV in Chicago) when I was a freshman in '84. Then I got hooked on going to the Palestra and watching Penn and Big 5 basketball.
If you field a decent team, the crowds will come back, plain and simple.
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PennHoopsFan
Masters Student
Posts: 633
Loc: Mid-Atlantic
Reg: 02-23-09
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-02-16 12:31 AM - Post#205675
In response to palestra38
Speaking of the DP (well, the first post does), I bet a lot of us missed the Joke issue on Tuesday. Yes, I hate that crazy app too!
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-03-16 03:08 PM - Post#205696
In response to palestra38
Having had a daughter who just was graduated from Penn (grew up on Penn BB and wrote sports for the DP for 2 years), I know how much the student body has changed---and that change is probably more stark at Penn than HYPr, where 35 years ago, Penn had a student body 2/3 male, 85% white and 50% or more from the NE Corridor--those kids grew up on Marv and the Knicks (or Johnny Most or Bill Campbell, etc) and were sports fans. .
I was at Penn 35 years ago and the student body was not 2/3 males. The ratio was close to 50-50.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-03-16 03:14 PM - Post#205697
In response to Big R&B Truth
It didn't get to 50-50 before the mid-80s. Fact. Even with SAMP and Nursing.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-03-16 04:08 PM - Post#205698
In response to palestra38
I started Penn in 1980. We were told at Freshman Convocation that the gender ratio of the class was 50-50.
For Penn to be 67% male in 1981 (35 years ago), the previous classes had to be ~75% male. I don't think that was the case or at least it sure didn't seem that way.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-03-16 07:57 PM - Post#205704
In response to Big R&B Truth
I'm just telling you what was the situation when I started in '74
'74 was the last year of the College for Women. The College was about twice as large. Wharton was over 80% male. All the women were in the College for Women, SAMP and Nursing.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-04-16 01:30 PM - Post#205729
In response to Big R&B Truth
In 1964 when I started the ratio was 5-1. No wonder I married a Temple nurse. Of course Temple nursing was 100% female then. I guess we crafted a Pareto optimal solution.
The cheerleaders were all men. The student body actually voted down female cheerleaders in 1967. Yoh!!!!
There was a dress code for women that mandated skirts - probably had a skirt length requirement too. There was no dress code for men although it was fashionable to dress in a suit for classes.
You could tell the commuters from the fraternity boys by their shoes. When not dressed up we commuters wore black low-cut converse. The fraternity boys all wore penny loafers. But I did wear sensible high-cut white converse playing pickup in Hutch.
In 1967 the April 1 DP had Penn buying Drexel.
Edited by UPIA1968 on 04-04-16 01:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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04-04-16 01:45 PM - Post#205731
In response to UPIA1968
That would have solved the 'playing at the DAC' controversy.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-04-16 03:38 PM - Post#205736
In response to UPIA1968
Actually, I think it was the 1968 joke issue because I remember that and I didn't start at Penn until September 1967. There is actually a DP archive so we could look it up but I'm too lazy to do so. I also think that the joke issue was not on April 1 but was at another time (Ben's B-day?)
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-04-16 07:06 PM - Post#205741
In response to SteveChop
Maybe so it was a very long time ago.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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 Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-04-16 09:45 PM - Post#205745
In response to UPIA1968
You guys have all confirmed my belief that only old people use message boards!
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Nice Job, Bilsky
04-05-16 10:04 PM - Post#205797
In response to Big R&B Truth
This thread present the thesis that only old people root for Penn basketball.
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