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Username Post: Time after time        (Topic#192)
Buckeye Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1601

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 12:07 PM - Post#895    
    In response to The Willow


"Cocky"? "Teach him a lesson"? From the same person who called Jameer Nelson a "thug" last year.
How about sticking to basketball and leaving your social commentary to yourself.

 
Anonymous 

Study up, Penn Pal
12-09-04 12:29 PM - Post#896    
    In response to Buckeye Quake

Remember the general rules of thumb with Ebede

If he does something good, TAKE HIM OUT, can't have him getting cocky.

If he does something bad (like a turnover), TAKE HIM OUT, must remind him he stinks.

Bottom line, don't play Ebede, he's too wild and crazy.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 01:11 PM - Post#897    
    In response to

We've seen Dunphy be flexible in regard to playing two big guys at once -- with Owens and Paul R. Frankly, I had more problems with the offense then, because it tended to bog down with two guys in the middle. I think there's a pretty good argument that Zoller and Fikiel do a lot for our spacing, and that Pettinella wouldn't be as effective offensively with Danley on the floor.

As for Joe Jones, you're certainly right that he'd play kids (he's starting Ben & Loscalzo, with big minutes for Montgomery & Sweet), though he's in a very different situation in that he can afford to take chances b/c he doesn't have to compete to win the league every year. Where I think you may be wrong on Jones is about the 39 minutes/rotation thing. Last year, he played a million guys early and then I thought he settled into what was very close to a 7 man rotation with a few minutes for a couple of other guys if fouls, etc, dictated (granted, that's when Murphy was hurt). He may have more depth this year, but I bet he rides Matt Preston as far as he can go again.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Time after time
12-09-04 02:19 PM - Post#898    
    In response to

I generally agree with some of your harping, Chuck, but I think you're a little overboard on this one. Joe Jones would definitely smile more than Fran, hype his players more, hold better press conferences, slap more backs and high-five more fans, but until he wins a game he has to win or beats a team in the Top 250 I'm not sure I'd pick him as the coach to emulate. Let Joe work his way up to GLEN Miller first.

I'm more of a reward/risk guy. Fran's more of a risk/reward guy. I'm more of a tinkerer. Fran sticks with what's worked. I'm more of an entrepreneur. Fran's more of a management-type. Some of his game moves frustrate me as a fan, some of his player personnel decisions baffle me, some of his short-term decisions, I believe, negatively effect some long-term goals. I always want to think that with this move or that things could be better than they are. I think (or want to think) there's a combination of players and minutes on this team that should win the League and should be competitive outside the League. Maybe there are. Perhaps there aren't.

I agree there have been numerous missed opportunities for more big wins (Princeton fans feel the same way) and that Penn should have a better record in close games, but since Jerome and Matt's sophomore season, Penn's won seven titles and shared an eighth and last night Begley shot 2-10 from three, Zoller didn't score and Penn took Temple to the buzzer on the road. It's hard to imagine Joe Jones, or anyone else, doing all that much better.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 02:29 PM - Post#899    
    In response to

Overall, I agree Howard; that is, until the last paragraph. We all know Begley had an off night, but Oz had the game we've been dreaming of since he transferred. Zoller didn't score, but Pet did. It's easy to say "Begley and Zoller (and Ibby) had bad games, Danley was average at best, and we only lost on some iffy calls...." I guess that's not me.

I'm more of a "we only lost by 1 without getting a single decent look in the last 3 minutes, numerous times off a timeout." Or "we only lost by 1 with two of our most effective guys playing miniscule minutes." I guess I'm just not one for moral victories, especially in a game we COULD and SHOULD have won, if not for awful game management.

 
Buckeye Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1601

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 02:40 PM - Post#900    
    In response to


Hey Howard. We can all count the banners in the Palestra. But here's a concept that you and I have discussed on numerous occasions. How about rewarding the guys who are playing well by keeping them on the floor and sitting those who aren't. I think even Jones could handle that one without the banners.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Time after time
12-09-04 02:40 PM - Post#901    
    In response to SFlaQuaker

Then there's the view that Penn got everything it could out of smaller, less athletic players but when Temple needed a stop they had another gear and Penn didn't.

But I agree with you. This was not a moral victory situation. For much of the game, Penn was the better (or equal) team. The game was theirs for the taking. I was just saying (with regard to a newcomer like Joe Jones) that in the macro sense Fran's done a tremendous job. The micro sense is why we have a message board.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Time after time
12-09-04 02:53 PM - Post#902    
    In response to Buckeye Quake

Pettinella absolutely should have played more. The problem with playing the reward/risk guys more, however, is that the substitution rotation starts too late. If you don't sub in the second half until the 10-minute mark you force your subs to play in the crunch time situation you're afraid to let them play in. If you put Ryan and Ebede in at the 14 minute mark for a couple minutes and see how they react to that you'll get them more acclimated to the 2nd half pressure.

In the 2nd half, Pettinella came in at 11:55 Penn up three, he left at 9:06 Penn up three. Ebede came in at 10:08 Penn up three, he left following his TO at 8:40 Penn up three.

Down the stretch, Fran went to the whip with his non-starting starting lineup: Oz, Ibby, Begs, Zoller, Danley and over the final 8:40 they were outscored 13-9. For a piece of irony I didn't notice until I just looked back at my notes - that final 8:40 was the ONLY time in the game those five guys played together.

 
Administrator 
Junior
Posts: 241
Administrator
Reg: 11-08-04
GLEN Miller
12-09-04 03:00 PM - Post#903    
    In response to

Not to single you out, but after all Glen Miller has done at Brown, I think he deserves to have his name spelled correctly.

Glenn Miller = big band leader
Glen Miller = men's head basketball coach at Brown

Just to help everyone, we have modified the board software to replace "Glenn" with "Glen" in every new post. Our apologies if you're trying to discuss the astronaut and former senator from Ohio or the drummer for the Eagles. But perhaps we shouldn't be talking about either of them on an Ivy basketball board anyway.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: GLEN Miller
12-09-04 03:37 PM - Post#904    
    In response to Administrator

Not to single you out, Mr. Adnminstrator, but Don Henley was the Eagles' drummer. Glen Frey shared vocals with Henley.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 03:44 PM - Post#905    
    In response to Buckeye Quake

This suggestion makes logical sense to a degree. However, isn't it also possible that Dunphy (and coaches generally) has a pretty good sense of who will perform well in what situation, and that the bench guys may actually perform well for stretches because they aren't left in long enough to be exposed? That's where counting the banners ends up impacting my thoughts on these matters -- I give the coach the benefit of the doubt because his decisions have worked consistently over time in terms of the end results.

One other point on this -- in an interview I read just a week or so ago, Dunphy described his own substitution patterns in the exact terms you use. What he says and what he does may be two different things, but it also may just be that you guys perceive "playing well" in different ways.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 03:46 PM - Post#906    
    In response to

I know Chuck as well as other would agree that Fran has only done a tremendous job in the ivy league. Overall, considering the talent on his teams and the small number of big wins, I just wouldn't go with "tremendous."

Then again, maybe I just have higher expectations/hopes.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 04:06 PM - Post#907    
    In response to SFlaQuaker

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I bet I wouldn't be nearly as big a fan if we were a bigger time program.

 
Buckeye Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1601

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 04:06 PM - Post#908    
    In response to SomeGuy


So basically what you're saying SG is don't believe what you're seeing because the coaches know better? That's like the Eagles coaching staff trying to justify playing Mark Simoneau at MLB over Jeremiah Trotter for half of this season.
How do you "perceive" that someone is playing well? A coach can play or not play someone for a number of reasons. But the bottom line is either you can play or you can't. And I don't think there's a person here who can dispte that Ebede can play. Last night he played well. And even by your reasoning, his failure to play signifiganty in the second half is inexplicable.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Time after time
12-09-04 04:11 PM - Post#909    
    In response to SomeGuy

Well, I'd miss you some guy, but not nearly as much as I miss wins and big time programs.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 04:26 PM - Post#910    
    In response to

I'm not saying I need Penn to be a top 5 team. But it would be nice to have our biggest non-league win be against some one a little more impressive than Manhattan or Drexel.

Three years ago, can you honestly tell me you didn't get even more excited about this team after the beat GT and played with then-#2 Illinois for 35 minutes?

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 04:28 PM - Post#911    
    In response to Buckeye Quake

To throw the Eagles analogy back the other way, I think it's often more akin to fans wanting to see Koi Detmer over Donavan McNabb when things weren't going well in the NFC Championship a few years back. Fans love the idea that there's a magic bullet out there that will make all the difference, and they justify the call for the magic bullet by saying that we'll never know if we don't see. Well, a lot of the time the coach does know (though not always, as you point out). I think this is different from the King situation in that the two banners in the Palestra suggest that Dunphy got that one right. If Princeton (or Columbia, or Brown) ends up with the next one, it'll be a lot easier to question if Ebede doesn't play.

As for the perception comment, I think there are a lot of things that some of us see that impress us that don't mean a whole lot to coaches. Obviously turnovers are a big deal to Dunphy's perception of who's playing well.

My final point is that last night is probably the first time that I've seen Ebede where I've really thought I'd like to see more from a winning ballgames perspective (as opposed to my general obsession with the team that leads to curiosity as to how all of these guys would do if given the chance). So I'm not as convinced that he can play at the level of the guys who currently start as you seem to be.

 
Anonymous 

Turnovers uber alles
12-09-04 04:48 PM - Post#912    
    In response to SomeGuy

I'm sorry it doesn't work that way. Turnovers are not the only thing that matters. If Dunphy thinks that, he's wrong.

Second, it's a little known fact that I would have won titles in both Ugonna's junior and senior years as coach with Gensler coaching the guards and PennPal coaching the forwards. To not win a tournament game with that team bordered on underachieving. It certainly was no great accomplishment. He had Ugonna and Koko for gosh sakes. Heck the guy probably came as close as I would to screwing it up by overcoaching and benching Ugonna a move that could only be hoped to have no negative effects such as alienating U. Maybe the Jordan and Allen teams were great coaching, but certainly not the U team.

 
Buckeye Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1601

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 05:53 PM - Post#913    
    In response to SomeGuy

I think this is different from the King situation in that the two banners in the Palestra suggest that Dunphy got that one right.
I don't think it necessarily means he got everything right. It means he won the league. Who's to say he couldn't have done it in a more impressive fashion if he had played King or others more? Who is to say that they wouldn't have been successful in the tournament had he played others?

As for the perception comment, I think there are a lot of things that some of us see that impress us that don't mean a whole lot to coaches.
Are we supposed to ignore those things that impress us and simply dismiss them as inconsequential? How arrogant is that? Why bother watching? This idea that because Fran says so it must be the correct way since he's won so many Ivy championships baffles me.

So I'm not as convinced that he can play at the level of the guys who currently start as you seem to be.



For the life of me I can't see what would make you draw that conclusion. You obviously see a lot more in the starters than I do. Personally with the exception maybe of Begley, I don't see much difference at all between 1 and 10 on this team.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Time after time
12-09-04 06:22 PM - Post#914    
    In response to Buckeye Quake

I agree that the King stuff is open to conjecture. However, we did get a sense of the difference between Owens, Plummer, and Klatsky and Toole, Schiffner, and Begley in terms of wins/losses and level of play. We went from a bad mix to a good one with those changes. Maybe more King makes either mix better, but we went from bad to good pretty decisively.

I may have overstated my faith in Fran -- it's quite high in the macro sense, but there are plenty of micro things that bother me at times. As we've discussed before, though, his playing time decisions are not generally one of the things that bother me. And if anything, I usually seem to focus on the exact opposite guys that you do (I was a big proponent of playing Schiff more as a freshman, for example).

Finally, on the playing time issue, I should've been more specific. By "guys who currently start" I meant Begley and Ibby, who play the positions that have the most impact on Ebede. The mix might not work right if he replaced Jan or Oz, but I find it hard to believe that either of those guys is light years ahead of Ebede.

 
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