HARVARDDADGRAD
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11-10-16 04:44 PM - Post#212894
Stanford favored by 4.5.
Reid Travis back, healthy and hit 9 of 10 shots in 40+ point win vs local Chinese opponent. Jonah, couldn't you have exerted some positive guidance over your naive little brother and gotten him to Cambridge?
This matchup poses an interesting question for Harvard: who matches up against Travis? Zena is the best defender, and would normally guard a 6'8" go to big, but Stanford has size beyond Travis. Can Egi handle Travis? Can Harvard afford to move Zena over? Will Zena get in foul trouble? From what I saw, Baker and Welsh are not ready to defend this level of talent, maybe Lewis?
Scouting Alert: Travis shot less than 50% from the FT line each of the past two seasons.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 11-10-16 04:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mrjames
Professor
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11-10-16 04:50 PM - Post#212895
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Seems like a point or two too much relative to the preseason rankings, but I think that's fair given how many unknowns there are for Harvard.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Age: 74
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Re: Stanford
11-10-16 05:46 PM - Post#212911
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Will be very interesting game to watch Harvard freshmen hit the floor for the first time. Could be the start of something very special over the next four years for the Crimson. For the Ivy League, it would be a nice start if Harvard wins or plays very competitively.
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H78
PhD Student
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
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Re: Stanford
11-11-16 03:13 AM - Post#212935
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I like your insight on Reid Travis, HGD. Given Harvard's lineup and experience, he may be the toughest matchup, with his size, skill set and general "Travis-ness." Unclear (to me, anyway) who'll be the "other" forward in TA's starting lineup. I like either Baker or Lewis, depending on who matches up better with Stanford's 4. This also looks like Towns will get some time at the 3, especially if Corey's matchup guy starts out-muscling or blowing by him.
Regarding Reid Travis' Harvard potential, I think he was more interested in athletic scholarship schools, and Harvard was still 1-2 years away from getting Top-100 recruits, Zena being the exception, rather than the rule.
Though there wasn't a box score I could find from Stanfords exhibition blowout against Shanghai Jiao Tong University, if this is Stanford's starting lineup, based on their top scorers, they've definitely got size, and Harvard will benefit from really good 3-point shooting that opens up the floor,and being able to hold its own on defense against a bigger opponent:
Dorian Pickens G/F 6'5" 215 lbs
11
Marcus Sheffield G/F 6'5" 180 lbs
14
Michael Humphrey F 6'9" 220 lbs
10
Reid Travis F 6'8" 245 lbs
22
Grant Verhoeven C 6'9" 250 lbs
30
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H78
PhD Student
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Re: Stanford
11-12-16 12:15 AM - Post#213079
In response to bradley
Harvard off to a somewhat disjointed start. Not enough passing, esp. Zena.
Starting 5
Zena
Egi
Towns
Corey
Siyani
TA Quickly subs in Aiken. Going smaller as Stanford did. Reid Travis gonna be a beast...Also see Towns, Lewis and Juzang getting early minutes.
Really like how TA is freely subbing in to see who works well together.
Nice block by Zena of 7 footer Sharma's "free" look.
Really impressed with H freshmen talent level.
P.S. Unfortunately, they're getting great open looks but they're not converting.
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CrimsonWest
Sophomore
Posts: 106
Reg: 10-17-11
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Re: Stanford
11-12-16 01:01 AM - Post#213086
In response to H78
I think we are seeing the future today. Freshmen have 21 of 28 points in the first half. Fouls have some impact, but there seems to be at least 3/4 freshmen on the floor at all times. Siyani and Zena spending a lot of time on the bench. H has kept it close, let's see what the second half brings.
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H78
PhD Student
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Re: Stanford
11-12-16 01:11 AM - Post#213088
In response to CrimsonWest
Agree.
Worried about seeing our 1st half stats, esp shooting and FT%.
30% from the field, 57% from FT. Also, not getting enough 2nd chance looks.
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mrjames
Professor
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11-12-16 01:26 AM - Post#213090
In response to H78
No surprise that a bunch of new people are struggling to run the motion offense. It's the right offense for the level of creativity Harvard will have later in the year, but it'll be this ugly as they're learning...
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CrimsonWest
Sophomore
Posts: 106
Reg: 10-17-11
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11-12-16 01:33 AM - Post#213092
In response to mrjames
I think I have finally gotten over my sense of deja vu every time the camera shows Reid Travis.
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H78
PhD Student
Posts: 1458
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
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11-12-16 01:34 AM - Post#213093
In response to CrimsonWest
I think I have finally gotten over my sense of deja vu every time the camera shows Reid Travis.
Ha! Jonah 2.0, longer version.
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CrimsonWest
Sophomore
Posts: 106
Reg: 10-17-11
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11-12-16 02:15 AM - Post#213095
In response to H78
I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with Siyani
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
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11-12-16 02:29 AM - Post#213096
In response to CrimsonWest
CW, I agree with you.
He looked devastated until he got up.
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digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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11-12-16 11:04 AM - Post#213121
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
We've got athletes. Now we just need to figure out how they play together.
I feel like if that is a late December game it is a different result.
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GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
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Age: 52
Reg: 05-19-16
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Re: Stanford
11-12-16 12:20 PM - Post#213132
In response to CrimsonWest
I think we are seeing the future today. Freshmen have 21 of 28 points in the first half. Fouls have some impact, but there seems to be at least 3/4 freshmen on the floor at all times. Siyani and Zena spending a lot of time on the bench. H has kept it close, let's see what the second half brings.
It looks like Amaker is creating the IVY version of High Major's utilization of impact freshman.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
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11-12-16 12:28 PM - Post#213134
In response to digamma
Had that very same feeling. Way too soon for seven newbies to be on the same page, especially with a PG returning from a year off. Looked up at the half and couldn't believe Stanford was only up by 2. Hope Tommy figures out a way to involve Zena and Corey in future games (3 pts). Rebounding, interior defense and three point shooting (Corbin? Tommy Mac?) were concerning.
I watched the game on a slight delay as I suffered through a dreadful football performance against Penn (after a valiant comeback). I knew this would be a strange night when 20 minutes after the game started - but before I turned to the game - I received a text asking: "Who's Welsh?" Didn't expect that.
Having said that, my (other) son at an ACC school called at 1:30AM telling me that he couldn't believe how athletic Harvard is. His point of reference was the fact that he had just come back from his squad's opening game.
I'm sure the offense will get in sync. I'm still as concerned about defense as I was when I wondered here prior to the game who would handle Travis. For what it's worth, I had also pointed out Travis' foul shooting issues (he was 10-19) but expressed concern that Zena might end up in foul trouble. Also noticed Stanford post Aiken
whenever it could. I
Again, thanks for the tournament (this year)! The talent is there, four months to get it together.
Hope Siyani is OK. Our hearts sunk watching him seemingly despondent under the basket.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Stanford
11-12-16 12:53 PM - Post#213135
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Scheduling Question
I believe because of this trip Harvard couldn't play in a holiday tournament. I wonder if working out the numerous kinks against an light OOC schedule before taking this same squad but with 60 days of experience to a tropical locale in late December might have been considered.
I'd like to see this game replayed then.
On the other hand, Harvard further brought it's brand to China. Does Yao have any offspring?
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 11-12-16 12:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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11-12-16 03:45 PM - Post#213140
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Serious question: was Bill Walton paid by the mention by Alibaba? He said it so often, sometimes he ran out of a reason and literally just said "Alibaba..." going into a break.
Also, I'm not sure... did Bill Walton go to Disney there?
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PennFan10
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11-12-16 04:07 PM - Post#213141
In response to digamma
We've got athletes. Now we just need to figure out how they play together.
I feel like if that is a late December game it is a different result.
Doesn't it stand to reason Stanford may be a bit better, under a new head coach, in December as well?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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11-12-16 04:55 PM - Post#213143
In response to PennFan10
Stanford started three juniors and two seniors. 60% of Harvard's minutes went to Freshmen playing their first collegiate game. No coaching changes that.
Harvard's three non-freshman leaders either experienced foul trouble (Zena, Corey) and Siyani saw his first game action in 20 months.
I'd take Harvard in December - and the next three years as well.
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mrjames
Professor
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11-12-16 08:11 PM - Post#213147
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Because of the trip, Harvard was not permitted to do its 1-in-4 foreign tour. The NCAA would have allowed this not to count, but it counts as such under Ivy rules. Harvard cannot play in an MTE this year because it played in ones in 13-14 and 15-16 and the Ivy has a 2-in-4 policy there (NCAA allows one per year). It will play in one next year that should be announced soon!
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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11-12-16 08:16 PM - Post#213149
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Stanford started three juniors and two seniors. 60% of Harvard's minutes went to Freshmen playing their first collegiate game. No coaching changes that.
Harvard's three non-freshman leaders either experienced foul trouble (Zena, Corey) and Siyani saw his first game action in 20 months.
I'd take Harvard in December - and the next three years as well.
Those are some serious Crimson colored glasses. No surprise
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
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11-12-16 09:01 PM - Post#213150
In response to PennFan10
Irrespective of growth in team play or comfort with the D-I level, I think Harvard would have had a better chance in January and February merely because Stanford appeared to be able to do very little other than shoot FTs. They were non-existent from behind the arc and struggled with Harvard's better defenders inside. Stanford's only real offense was beating Harvard back for quick buckets and a lot of two-point jumpers. Harvard's offense was atrocious in the first half, but the playmakers started getting creative in the second half and things improved dramatically. If several key Harvard players weren't saddled with foul trouble, that would have been even more helpful.
I'd be surprised if by March, Harvard wasn't ahead of Stanford in the advanced metrics.
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PennFan10
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11-12-16 10:35 PM - Post#213152
In response to mrjames
March is a long way off and both these teams will be pretty different. I was talking about December. To dismiss a new coach and new system as irrelevant to Stanfords development in their first game all the while touting your own teams growth seems pretty one sided.
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digamma
Masters Student
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Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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Stanford
11-12-16 10:38 PM - Post#213153
In response to mrjames
I disagree a little on the game last night. Harvard struggled a bit on the interior defensively. A lot of this had to do with foul trouble and some probably odd combinations, but that's probably the thing that concerned me most. Some easy dishes and buckets inside in the second half from Stanford.
And yes, I think it is reasonable to think that a team with five freshmen (six?) getting significant time and led by a guy who didn't play last season stands to improve by some measure from their first game playing together.
Of course, it's one sided. It's a Harvard board, not a Stanford board. I'm probably not going to watch many more Stanford games this season. I'm more concerned by how we improve, and if it is in line with what I think is possible, Harvard will be significantly better a month from now, and certainly three months from now.
Edited by digamma on 11-12-16 10:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SRP
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11-12-16 11:59 PM - Post#213154
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Aiken can handle and looked good as a PG but unfortunately seemed to think he was a combo guard and tossed up a lot of iffy shots. Lewis had good activity going for blocks and rebounds. Welsh looked like Harvard's best big; as usual, Edosomwan left me shaking my head. Towns shot poorly but took good-looking shots, with even his airballs looking smooth somehow, plus he seemed to track the ball on defense very well and get involved in plays. Hope Chambers is OK. A couple of times he made Stanford look helpless on high-speed penetrations.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
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Stanford
11-13-16 12:17 AM - Post#213155
In response to SRP
As a team, things were pretty ugly, but as individuals I was impressed at times by Aiken, Lewis & Welsh. You can see talent there with Towns also.
Aiken will be deadly when he gets better making decisions at the college level. Lewis is already a defensive presence and I thought did a great job taking what was given to him on offense and didn't force it. Welsh was a surprise. I saw his big brother playing as a senior in high school a few times and he was effective but kind of a stiff honestly. He looks further along than his brother at this point, just several inches shorter.
I think the real challenge for Amaker this year is making these different pieces a team. Will be interesting to see how it goes. I do wonder how a guy like McCarthy feel being completely displaced. I actually thought they could have used his shooting last night so surprised he got so little time.
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H78
PhD Student
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Stanford
11-13-16 08:06 AM - Post#213159
In response to SRP
Agree with lots in SRP's and Mike Porter's analyses. Aiken, as acknowledged by both Siyani and him, is more of a shoot-first guard. If he's going to play a major role in the motion offense as a point guard, and work with high quality teammates like Lewis, Towns, Zena, Baker, Welsh, etc., he'll have to learn to pass more often and not take those "iffy" (well-phrased!) shots. Hopefully, he'll have open ears, eyes and mind to what he can learn from Siyani and TA this year.
To "borrow" a comment from iabhoops, Welsh and Juzang, both coming from highly competitive CIF (Calif. Interscholastic Federation) basketball programs in the Los Angeles area, are showing more court-readiness than their ESPN ratings might have indicated. Surprised that Baker made no appearance. Not sure why. Perhaps they felt he couldn't cover Stanford's bigs as well as his teammates could. Nor did Corbin Miller, whose 3 point shooting could have helped. Perhaps the coaches felt he'd be a defensive liability.
Corey had few good looks, and shot poorly, as did the other returning players from last year's team, Zena and Chris Egi. Stunningly, Egi made all his (2) free throw attempts, though Zena, who did play well against top competition last year, was a total bust. I think that Reid Travis may have scrimmaged vs. him when visiting Harvard, and just "knew" how to cover him. It would have helped if Z remembered to pass out of a double or triple team, and I'm sure on the long plane trip back, he'll get a little "loving" message from Coach TA on that unfortunate regression to his first 1 ½ years at Harvard.
Lastly, I concur with both HGD and mrjames that this team will improve quite significantly over the season, whether in 1 month or 3... Amaker may be having a few somewhat Calipari-esque moments over the coming 4-8 weeks, as he gets these freshmen to play well together. I say "somewhat" because I believe these freshmen are all planning to complete their 4 year college programs before heading onward.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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11-13-16 08:00 PM - Post#213190
In response to mrjames
With a few minutes in the game Bill Walton endorsed his "favorite" Harvard lineup:
Zena
Chris Lewis
Seth Towns
Siyani
Brice Aiken
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iabhoops88
Sophomore
Posts: 107
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 01-26-13
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11-13-16 09:10 PM - Post#213195
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Just returned from Shanghai. I haven't seen the broadcast, but some observations:
1. Stanford bigs dominated. Not just Travis, who was best player on court by wide margin. Despite blocks by Lewis, Harvard''s interior defense was poor. Humphrey and Verboeven got good looks. Stanford did good job keeping Harvard off the boards.
2. Frosh very impressive. Bryce is lightning quick and got into lane with ease. He made Siyani look slow. Despite earlier comments and his 5-15 line, most of his shots looked good at the time. Towns dunk was awesome live, right in front of Harvard section. Has all-around game. Solid defensively, hit offensive boards, can penetrate and has outside shot.
3. Harvard offense didn't flow. Stagnated until 10 seconds on shot clock.
4. Zena didn't do much. His post moves seemed premeditated and predictable. Still reluctant to pass out of post.
5. No transition game for Harvard despite having Siyani, Bryce, and Juzang on court for significant minutes
6. Crimson got good looks but didn't hit. Juzang and Johnson 0-6 from 3.
7. Other than Travis and maybe Pickens, Harvard had more impressive players.
Other tidbits:
1. Alibaba was big sponsor and entire entourage spent time at HQ in Hangzhou.
2. You can't stand at Chinese basketball games. Every time Harvard fans in front stood, security guards told us to sit.
3. Cheng Ho '10 valiantly tried several times to get the Harvard fans to do the "I believe" chant.
4. Arena was beautiful, but less than half full.
5. Walton likely went to Shanghai Disney. Media day was held there.
6. I managed to hitch a ride to the game with Ma Jian (Utah) and Jason Collins.
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iabhoops88
Sophomore
Posts: 107
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 01-26-13
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11-14-16 04:52 AM - Post#213208
In response to iabhoops88
Not sure if they showed this on broadcast, but Zena addressed fans in Mandarin before the game. The crowd appreciated that.
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bradley
PhD Student
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11-16-16 12:20 PM - Post#213311
In response to iabhoops88
After watching replay of game, I agree with your overall thoughts. Lewis looked very impressive while Edosomwan looked the opposite. It would not be surprising if Lewis gets some of his minutes or even possibly, Egi if Zena continues to play like he has since the middle of last season.
After watching Chambers play, he does have limitations but he is so smart. He probably will be a coach someday like Amaker.
Freshman may be relied upon pretty heavily.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
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11-16-16 12:48 PM - Post#213316
In response to bradley
Zena is still the centerpiece of the offense and the best shot blocker and rebounder. He was and still is the best 'center' in the league. He will be double teamed by every Ivy opponent. When he isn't (Kansas, Maui Invitational), the results speak for themselves. Last year, due to a lack of other scoring options, Amaker made feeding Zena down low the focus of the offense and Zena was coached not to pass out without exploring every option to take the ball to the hoop. I saw this first hand at a Harvard practice. When Zena was fed the ball and, feeling a defender on his back, passed the ball out, Amaker actually stopped the practice and instructed Zena to try and explore every option to turn and take it to the basket before passing off.
This year will be different. It will take some transition, but with new and returning talent Zena will realize/be coached that when the opposition is about to double team him that he needs to get the ball out quickly. Corey, Siyani, Bryce, Seth, Corbin and others will move the ball and find the open shot. If Zena can do this, I expect to see lines like the final game last year when he had 6pts, 10rbs, 7assts and 2 blocks - in the first half as Harvard jumped out to a 40-15 lead over Penn based on Zena's selfless performance.
Coach Amaker may need to dish out some 'tough love' on Zena, and I believe it has started already, but it's all about being the best team during the second weekend in March and that team has to be built around Siyani and Zena. This team is good without Zena, with him at his best, it has a chance to be special.
Buckle your seatbelts!
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2689
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11-16-16 01:03 PM - Post#213318
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
By the way, I believe Zena's final weekend performance against Princeton and Penn was awesome. Before then, starting with Cornell/Columbia at home he was either injured or returning from a lingering injury. His second half was largely explainable and then awesome.
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