cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
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12-01-16 08:56 PM - Post#214621
down 47-37 at half. We are actually playing well--you get the sense that for Smith with 14, and Meisner with 11, this might even be a breakout game. But Hickman and Petrasek are both underperforming, and however well we are doing, Seton Hall looks better.
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cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
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12-01-16 10:27 PM - Post#214629
In response to cc66
95-71 final. Smith's best game with 23; Petrasek and Meisner with 11; but they keyed on Hickman and limited him to 7. Seton Hall was just too big and quick. They shot 58% FG and 41% of 3s. We lost, and badly, but it's a loss against a team that by a large margin is probably better than any in the IL.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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12-01-16 10:55 PM - Post#214631
In response to cc66
I don't disagree but the team needs to play some defense.
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Columbia 37P6
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Reg: 02-14-06
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12-01-16 10:56 PM - Post#214632
In response to cc66
Smith was outstanding in the first half and Petrasek, Meisner and Adlesh made some shots and had their moments. However, we were outclassed in the second half and never switched gears which was surprising because you would think Columbia would have tried a few different things to stop the bleeding. Some recurring problems also such as the continuing pitter-patter effect where our bigs play almost exclusively on the perimeter making it almost impossible to get any easy interior baskets or offensive rebounds. Other issues are the continuing lack of contribution from the fifth starter as well as the inability of anyone on the team other than Nate Hickman and Luke Petrasek to penetrate and score. Some of the necessary fixes seem fairly obvious, but perhaps I am missing something. Anyway,it seems clear that Adlesh or Hunter should be starting and that Meisner and McComber need to be instructed to stay within ten feet of the basket. Also, Hickman should be reminded to keep attacking the basket regardless of the outcome of his few lay-ups. Finally, it seems like Columbia is losing the opportunity to give valuable playing time in the Ivy pre-season to several of their best athletes. If the Lions wish to compete for the title they need to make some changes in the offense so that they get more production from the fifth starter and their big men. On defense, they need to mix things up more and also find a big man who has the size, strength, coordination and most importantly the desire to mix it up under the basket. If there is any chance at all that the freshman, Patrick Tape, could do that this January, he should be playing lots of minutes.
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cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
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12-01-16 11:16 PM - Post#214634
In response to Columbia 37P6
Ah, yes, our defense. We won't win many games when the opponent has an offensive efficiency rating of 1.32.
We've sunk on KenPom from 170 post-Stony Brook to 219, 20 above Cornell. We can hope that this is all OOC-finding-out-what-work s, but the consistency of our underachievement is beginning to make me wonder.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
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 12-02-16 08:02 AM - Post#214640
In response to cc66
Is Engles trying to fit a round peg into a square hole? Ivy basketball depends upon being able to match up against teams which are generally more athletic. Smith had that one figured out. We probably are not suited to an uptempo pace as opposed to more of a half court game. We generally will not be able to run and gun with the St. Joe/Seton Hall type athletes. A more deliberate game, and frankly a slower pace, should be better for us. I also wonder about Engles' defensive chops. Even with less explosive athletes we should be able to hold teams to less than 70 ppl imstead of the 80+ we have been giving up. The type of game that may have suited NJIT is not going to work at Columbia. One thing about Smith: he knew how to coach against more athletic and explosive teams. Whether Engles can remains to be seen. While Imrecognize that this team has some gaping holes, especially with the fifth starter, we should be doing better.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
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12-02-16 08:02 AM - Post#214641
In response to Chet Forte
Meant ppg
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-02-16 08:58 AM - Post#214643
In response to Columbia 37P6
As was true of Smith's recent teams, the defense needs to get better (and has a lot more room to improve than the offense does). Kenpom ranks the offense at 118, which isn't nearly as good as last year, but is about the same as the years before that.
Picking up on Chet Forte's point, the best pace for this team is an open question IMO. However, against a Seton Hall, fewer possessions is always a good thing for the weaker team, regardless of how you match up athletically. Playing at the pace they played last night is like playing a longer game in a way -- the more possessions you play where the other guys are more likely to score than you are, the more likely it becomes that they actually do score more than you.
But that's against Seton Hall. Within the Ivy, the faster pace may work just fine.
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RHunter3
Junior
Posts: 281
Reg: 12-02-14
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12-02-16 10:37 AM - Post#214650
In response to SomeGuy
The most glaring issue I see in the defense is the help defense. There is no reason someone can dribble from outside the 3point line into the paint without a big stepping in to challenge the shot or take a charge. The help defense needs to get better.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-02-16 11:25 AM - Post#214658
In response to RHunter3
It's an interesting problem. While I get what other posters have said about the problems with the bigs floating to the perimeter on offense, particularly against a Seton Hall that should at least enable them to get back there on defense and help out.
I've been arguing for a few years now that whoever defends best in the paint among the bigs should be playing for Columbia. That was more true with Rosenberg/Lo/Mullins, when the offense would be fine with no contribution from the center. Now there are tougher choices to be made about what you give up offensively to play defense.
Obviously, Petrasek and Hickman need to be out there for offense. After that, I'd play the guys who defend.
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RHunter3
Junior
Posts: 281
Reg: 12-02-14
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12-02-16 11:42 AM - Post#214661
In response to SomeGuy
Good defense will lead to easy offense. Getting stop will equal wins.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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12-02-16 12:30 PM - Post#214667
In response to RHunter3
I wouldn't be hard on the guys. Seton Hall at Prudential Center is a tough matchup. Columbia stayed with a very athletic, large and uptempo squad for more than half the game. Eventually, the depth and tempo led to a closing 35-19 run to end the game.
I though Columbia played rather well on offense. Remember, it was 60-52 after 26 minutes. Seemed like Columbia pushed its offense and at times ran some great plays/cuts, ending up with some easy buckets in addition to 3's. I didn't see hesitancy nor intimidation. Most teams will not dominate the rebounding (37-23) and shoot over 40% from long range the way Seton Hall did. There is a lot positive to take away from this effort.
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Old Bear
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Posts: 4005
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-02-16 05:34 PM - Post#214687
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I agree with HDG. This was my first view of the Lions this year and I was generally favorably impressed. It seems to me that you need to figure out what offensive scheme will work best for what you have against the league schedule and work on that against your non-conference schedule. To try to do otherwise would limit your effectiveness later in the year. Defense might be another matter. BTW, Bears are tougher than Lions, even if they are not bigger.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
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12-04-16 08:57 PM - Post#214848
In response to Old Bear
My continuing concern is if Engles is a system coach who is trying to get this group to play his system rather than to suit his strategy to our personnel. I also wonder why our defense is so horrific. If guys are hard nosed and tough you can coach them to play good defense.
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cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
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12-04-16 09:29 PM - Post#214854
In response to Chet Forte
I've been wondering that, too. We have yet to beat a good team (KenPom <200), and while there may be some evidence of improvement on offense (Smith coming around, Meisner improving), the defense has not gotten any better. Although I hate to open a can of worms, it does raise the question of what the team's record would be if Smith was still coaching them.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4005
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-04-16 09:47 PM - Post#214856
In response to cc66
Chet, IMHO, you left out one important factor, "If guys are hard nosed and tough you can coach them to play good defense." They also have to be quick enough. Size, particularly reach, also helps.
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Columbia Alum
Junior
Posts: 247
Age: 38
Reg: 11-15-11
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12-04-16 10:16 PM - Post#214858
In response to cc66
Completely hypothetical, but I think if smith was still coach we would be around the same kenpom ~200. Our issue is petrasek was the only known solid returning player, we lost massive minutes and then we lost castlin. I don't think it's fair to judge Engels yet, he's done well enough so far that he continues to earn my patience and faith that the program will reach new heights in the coming years.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-04-16 10:41 PM - Post#214862
In response to Old Bear
Personally, I think there are natural defenders just like there are natural scorers, and often the best offensive players aren't the best defenders (and vice versa). I think Smith always had a tendency to make playing time decisions that favored offense over defense; I haven't seen enough yet to figure out if I would say the same of Engles. For what it's worth, Columbia's offense is 2nd best in the league so far in kenpom. Defense is 7th, but only a couple of spots ahead of Brown.
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Filippo2014
Freshman
Posts: 83
Age: 76
Reg: 04-10-14
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12-05-16 10:27 AM - Post#214873
In response to SomeGuy
Mr. Hunter nailed it. He spelled it out for you. Simply put, the help defense needs to improve.
Paint dominance displayed by Seton Hall could be countered with vast amount of practice on a help concept. Help defense against players with a decided physical advantage calls on not just one player sliding over, but a team mindset to be alert to shutting down suddenly emerging driving and passing lanes.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
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12-05-16 11:22 AM - Post#214878
In response to Filippo2014
We can put a bigger team on the court were we to have either McComber or Coby on the floor at the same time as Luke and Lukas. Since we are getting little production from the third guard when we start with a three guard offense, and precious little defense, I don't know why we don't give that a try.
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